God Bless The U.S. of A.

[Lucifer]

Again you are assuming time is a linear function.  If you go faster than the speed of light all the things you say cannot happen will happen.  Conservation is held because of the huge amounts of energy used in the past of your time frame to essentially create energy in the past of everyone else's time frame, including your old self.  The huge amounts of energy is the real stumbling block, by current theory this would not just be a large but infinite amount.  Impossible, but not long ago so was going to space, and not long before that flying.

[f0rqu3]

you would burn before reaching the speed of light  

[sleekslacker]

Again you are assuming time is a linear function.  If you go faster than the speed of light all the things you say cannot happen will happen.  Conservation is held because of the huge amounts of energy used in the past of your time frame to essentially create energy in the past of everyone else's time frame, including your old self.  The huge amounts of energy is the real stumbling block, by current theory this would not just be a large but infinite amount.  Impossible, but not long ago so was going to space, and not long before that flying.

Look, you use that energy to create the past again, but the amount of energy in the past must be the same as the amount of energy in present. You will only have the exact amount of  energy to create the past, but you cannot accomodate your time travel ship, yourself, or even your spirit (if that even exist). Energy is not conserved when you create the past, and put a spectator mode for your current self. Even if you destroy your past self and put the current you in the past world, the history already changes because what you are now is not what you are later. Maybe you come to the past and poof, you land right in front of the car instead of crossing the road to safety. Energy must be conserved. Infinite or not, that's not relevant.

There is a lot of misconceptions about FTL speed and relativity theory. Among other things people read about the possiblity of time travel and get so fascinated they forgot to read the actual conclusion of relativity:

Nothing can move faster than light except massless objects.

[Anansi-Sama]

Again you are assuming time is a linear function.  If you go faster than the speed of light all the things you say cannot happen will happen.  Conservation is held because of the huge amounts of energy used in the past of your time frame to essentially create energy in the past of everyone else's time frame, including your old self.  The huge amounts of energy is the real stumbling block, by current theory this would not just be a large but infinite amount.  Impossible, but not long ago so was going to space, and not long before that flying.

Look, you use that energy to create the past again, but the amount of energy in the past must be the same as the amount of energy in present. You will only have the exact amount of  energy to create the past, but you cannot accomodate your time travel ship, yourself, or even your spirit (if that even exist). Energy is not conserved when you create the past, and put a spectator mode for your current self. Even if you destroy your past self and put the current you in the past world, the history already changes because what you are now is not what you are later. Maybe you come to the past and poof, you land right in front of the car instead of crossing the road to safety. Energy must be conserved. Infinite or not, that's not relevant.

There is a lot of misconceptions about FTL speed and relativity theory. Among other things people read about the possiblity of time travel and get so fascinated they forgot to read the actual conclusion of relativity:

Nothing can move faster than light except massless objects.

Massless objects, huh. Cool.  Gonna have to look that shiyat up.   But a theory that I find intriguing is that of Quantum Foam.   The way super-small scale particles can be created and destroyed is kinda nifty.  It brings in a whole new realm of rules.  Even the law of gravity doesn't quite apply there.

[floodbud]

Good question:

If you are driving a car at the speed of light and you turn your head lights on, what happens?

 :-?

The light from your head lights should go twice the speed of light, which Einstein said is impossible...

To avoid questions like this,

Nothing can go the speed of light, except light, everything else would disintegrate before it even got close.

This is the direction the thread is going...and time is indefinable considering that we can't touch it, smell it, see it, voluntarily speed or slow our passage through it, etc.  We have things like black holes (which apparently bend space-time), and subatomic gravitrons (which do not experience the passage of time)...but nothing provable.  Fun to think about...impossible to conclude.

______________________
Floodbud

[Plague Bringer]

Infinite or not, that's not relevant.

If the energy is infinite, how can you conserve it. It's impossible to waste an infinite amount of energy as it never is reduced. That fact is completely relevant.[/quote]

[AKAnotu]

you would burn before reaching the speed of light  

ummm, no air in space, and thus no friction applying to your craft lol

If the energy is infinite, how can you conserve it. It's impossible to waste an infinite amount of energy as it never is reduced. That fact is completely relevant.

right, you cannot destroy energy, only convert it into other forms

The light from your head lights should go twice the speed of light, which Einstein said is impossible...

how would you drive your car at the speed of light?
edit: on further time to consider how to dispose of this morony, light travels at a set speed and is not effected by the speed of it's scource, only the angle that it is released at, and thus you phail, sir

Look, you use that energy to create the past again, but the amount of energy in the past must be the same as the amount of energy in present. You will only have the exact amount of energy to create the past, but you cannot accomodate your time travel ship, yourself, or even your spirit (if that even exist). Energy is not conserved when you create the past, and put a spectator mode for your current self. Even if you destroy your past self and put the current you in the past world, the history already changes because what you are now is not what you are later. Maybe you come to the past and poof, you land right in front of the car instead of crossing the road to safety. Energy must be conserved. Infinite or not, that's not relevant.

actually, the energy would be in another form. there would be less dark energy in the past, which expands the universe (the universe has been expanding due to the big bang) so that you could use the energy to recreate yourself/whatever

light cannot be measured as a wave when it behaves like one, and cannot be measured as a particle when it behaves as one
i've always wanted to say that in a somewhat related conversation!

[Lucifer]

First off I never said it was possible, it is not.  The infinite amount of energy required keeps it that way.

Creating the past wtf?  The past is still the same you are only moving mass backwards in the time dimension just like you move stuff around in other dimensions, it is just infinitely harder.  Don't get confused about "oh no those are the same particles existing at the same time can't happen."  They are not the same particles, just as one piece of steel is not made from the same particles as any other piece.  A second later those particles are essentially different particles there is nothing special about them that would keep you from shoving them into the past.

And no conservation does not come up with the current theory as since you need to use an infinite amount of energy you would have to use *all* energy.  EVERYWHERE.  And even after that you would not have enough to make it work.  At that level of return I think it is very conservational.

[sleekslacker]

If you have infinite amount of energy in the past, then you will also have infinite amount of energy in the future. Now if someone could tell me they can harness infinite amount of energy and use that to recreate the future, then maybe I will believe in time travel. But if that happens, I would be using that infinite energy for something else really.

If you drive your car at the speed of light btw, your headlight doesn't go at twice the speed of light. Light is massless, is not affected by atomic forces, doesn't have momentum, and thus isn't pushed forward by massless objects. This is what I said earlier, if you move at the speed of light, and your car doesn't change from atoms to photons (  or into some other massless quantum particles. it will, trust me ), only one same photon can be seen by you at that speed. Thus, your time has stopped. But not the others. And your brain will probably stop working at that time ( the brain utilizes electron which may change based on the EMR properties ).


Moving mass backwards IS creating the past. You cannot create something from nothing, unless you use some magic (even magic needs its ingredients heh ). And something that is infinitely hard IS impossible. lol

If the energy is infinite, how can you conserve it. It's impossible to waste an infinite amount of energy as it never is reduced. That fact is completely relevant.

First comes the solid Law of Conservation: energy cannot be destroyed, energy cannot be created, energy must be conserved.

Second comes a comment from a random person i don't know on the internet: energy is infinite.

Now if energy is infinite, it cannot be conserved ( as you said). But if energy has to be conserved, it cannot be infinite. I choose the first solid law proven many times already. So infinite or not, it's not relevant. I am happy to answer this again if you don't understand.

Infinite is relative to who you are btw.. A retarded person maybe cannot count more than 3.. so anything more than 3 is infinite to him. It is used to describe an amount which is impossible to occur.

[Anansi-Sama]

The light from your head lights should go twice the speed of light, which Einstein said is impossible...

how would you drive your car at the speed of light?
edit: on further time to consider how to dispose of this morony, light travels at a set speed and is not effected by the speed of it's scource, only the angle that it is released at, and thus you phail, sir

Actually, light would travel at a speed relative to its source.  The speed of the source would be "relative zero" to the light, and thus its speed would be c plus the speed of the source.  Elementary Physics right there.

[floodbud]

I think I'm not alone when I'm trying to pretend that this isn't way over my head.

_____________________
Floodbud

[('v') Peace]

I <3 everybody, i cant agree/disagree with you. i dont want to go the speed of light in my car-too fast for me.

[Survivor]

Actually, light would travel at a speed relative to its source.  The speed of the source would be "relative zero" to the light, and thus its speed would be c plus the speed of the source.  Elementary Physics right there.

Elementary Physics do not apply to near light speeds. Hell, elementary psychics aren't a truly accurate representation of even 'normal' speeds. But they work good enough to be used.
Something along the lines of 20 decimals of pi being good enough to calculate most circles but if you want to be definitive you are missing a whole other level.

Edit: we do not understand the nature of time yet, it's pointless debating about relativistic time passing, let alone true time travel.

[AKAnotu]

time is pear shaped

[powerover]

I love my country and all, but don't bring your fucking god into the discussion; cause no one likes a freak who talks about his imaginary friend all the time.

  Ah, an atheist.  Now I could spend my precious time arguing with you about the existence of God, but since His existence must be taken on faith, that would be pointless.  Allow to just say this.  When I die, if I am wrong, I will simply cease to exist.  I have lost nothing by believing in God and Heaven and Hell, because according to atheism, I am merely an accidental collection of chemicals and electricity anyway.   But when you die, when you are proven wrong, you are still going to have to bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.  Then you will go to hell and burn forever.

To sum it up for you, if I'm wrong, I lose nothing.  If you're wrong, you lose everything.  I think my side of the bet is actually less risky in the long run, even though it means I have to run into assholes like you whilst in the world of the living.  

a mathematician, can't remember his name my 10th grade math teacher showed us the article, in about 1500 said those who believe in god and try to be like him when they die if they are wrong nothing bad happens they have just left behind a well and respected life and very unlikely one that others hated them for.  Someone who denies god and spends their life sinning when they die if they are wrong they are ruined and spend an eternity in hell. Even in scientifical and mathimatical reasoning its smarter to believe than to deny.

[Plague Bringer]

I love my country and all, but don't bring your fucking god into the discussion; cause no one likes a freak who talks about his imaginary friend all the time.

  Ah, an atheist.  Now I could spend my precious time arguing with you about the existence of God, but since His existence must be taken on faith, that would be pointless.  Allow to just say this.  When I die, if I am wrong, I will simply cease to exist.  I have lost nothing by believing in God and Heaven and Hell, because according to atheism, I am merely an accidental collection of chemicals and electricity anyway.   But when you die, when you are proven wrong, you are still going to have to bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.  Then you will go to hell and burn forever.

To sum it up for you, if I'm wrong, I lose nothing.  If you're wrong, you lose everything.  I think my side of the bet is actually less risky in the long run, even though it means I have to run into assholes like you whilst in the world of the living.  

a mathematician, can't remember his name my 10th grade math teacher showed us the article, in about 1500 said those who believe in god and try to be like him when they die if they are wrong nothing bad happens they have just left behind a well and respected life and very unlikely one that others hated them for.  Someone who denies god and spends their life sinning when they die if they are wrong they are ruined and spend an eternity in hell. Even in scientifical and mathimatical reasoning its smarter to believe than to deny.

So? It is more logical to deny then to believe. I stick to my logic.

.||_//    Live long and prosper.

(  ^ THAT IS TEH HAND SIGNAL)

[KobraKaine]

Live long and prosper.

Die wrong and burn...

[floodbud]

Live long and prosper.

Die wrong and burn...

+1

_________________________
Floodbud

[Anansi-Sama]

Live long and prosper.

Die wrong and burn...

+1

_________________________
Floodbud

Heh, I appreciate the support, guys   but this dude will never believe by our words, so we might as well leave well enough alone.  God will reach him.  Or he won't.  Either way, no skin off our noses.

[Lucifer]

The reason you cant move faster than the speed of light where your time stops is because your mass increases as you approach the speed of light and reaches an infinite amount at the speed of light thereby requiring an infinite amount of energy to accelerate further.  As there is a finite amount of energy this cannot be done.  However theoretically if you have an infinite amount of energy and accelerate beyond the speed of light you will move backwards in time.  For someone just off the flight path they would see two ships one flying backwards slightly faster and one moving forwards slightly slower than the speed of light and they would crash together at the transition point but leave no derbies.  Now what exactly something moving just faster than the speed of light would look like I have no clue.

On the better to disbelieve than believe issue, I say disbelieve.  My reasoning for this is that I know what I do is good otherwise I would not do it, so there is no need for someone else to tell me what to do.  Also it would probably be the wrong thing by the time it got down through the church and god is not and never did tell me directly.  If he exists and wants to send a good person to hell for not believing in him then I would hate his heaven and have more fun in hell anyway

[floodbud]

The reason you cant move faster than the speed of light where your time stops is because your mass increases as you approach the speed of light and reaches an infinite amount at the speed of light thereby requiring an infinite amount of energy to accelerate further.  As there is a finite amount of energy this cannot be done.  However theoretically if you have an infinite amount of energy and accelerate beyond the speed of light you will move backwards in time.  For someone just off the flight path they would see two ships one flying backwards slightly faster and one moving forwards slightly slower than the speed of light and they would crash together at the transition point but leave no derbies.  Now what exactly something moving just faster than the speed of light would look like I have no clue.

On the better to disbelieve than believe issue, I say disbelieve.  My reasoning for this is that I know what I do is good otherwise I would not do it, so there is no need for someone else to tell me what to do.  Also it would probably be the wrong thing by the time it got down through the church and god is not and never did tell me directly.  If he exists and wants to send a good person to hell for not believing in him then I would hate his heaven and have more fun in hell anyway

kudos for your understanding of science...but do you really believe it is better to be bad all around and die a criminal, or to be good all around because you want to please God, and subsequently die as someone everyone loves.  I know God exists, but even if I didn't, it would make more sense for me to try to live a good life.

_________________________
Floodbud

[Survivor]

Do you accept the possibility of living good while denying god?

[sleekslacker]

The reason you cant move faster than the speed of light where your time stops is because your mass increases as you approach the speed of light and reaches an infinite amount at the speed of light thereby requiring an infinite amount of energy to accelerate further.  

Absolute nonsense. Where did you get this idea from ? Mass increases with speed ?

[floodbud]

Do you accept the possibility of living good while denying god?

Yes, I accept the possibility, but I have never seen it happen effectively.  A fear of God, in the long run, is the only thing that will keep you good.  Or it does the best job anyway.  I know that without my religion I would be so bad right now.

___________________
Floodbud

[rdizzle]

Do you accept the possibility of living good while denying god?

Yes, I accept the possibility, but I have never seen it happen effectively.  A fear of God, in the long run, is the only thing that will keep you good.  Or it does the best job anyway.  I know that without my religion I would be so bad right now.

___________________
Floodbud

So in essence you are saying you are a weak-minded individual incapable of self control.  It's probably good you've got religion.  You're too stupid to be an atheist.




/my flamer's set on high.

[KobraKaine]

Do you accept the possibility of living good while denying god?

Yes, I accept the possibility, but I have never seen it happen effectively.  A fear of God, in the long run, is the only thing that will keep you good.  Or it does the best job anyway.  I know that without my religion I would be so bad right now.

___________________
Floodbud

So in essence you are saying you are a weak-minded individual incapable of self control.  It's probably good you've got religion.  You're too stupid to be an atheist.




/my flamer's set on high.

Then I hope you can handle the heat.  Prepare to be burned.

[rdizzle]

What, are you gonna send zombie Jesus with a blowtorch after me?

[KobraKaine]

What, are you gonna send zombie Jesus with a blowtorch after me?

Not burned by me, you misunderstood.  That's a pretty egotistical thing to do... calling 9/10ths of the world's population stupid for holding religious beliefs.  You think that somehow you are wiser or more intelligent than the rest of the world due to the fact that you view yourself as a god?

Your approach to the entire issue is tactless at best, suicidal at worst.

[Plague Bringer]

kudos for your understanding of science...but do you really believe it is better to be bad all around and die a criminal, or to be good all around because you want to please God, and subsequently die as someone everyone loves. I know God exists, but even if I didn't, it would make more sense for me to try to live a good life.

_________________________
Floodbud

No, you don't. There is no fucking proof that he exists, and just because there is no proof against his exsistance doesn't mean there is a god. I hate people like you, with a passion. Those people being close minded people who 'know' that whatever they believe is right, and everyone else is wrong. People who are amazingly stubborn and stuck-up.

No, I'm not being hypocrytical, I am open minded and I do believe in spirits, the supernatural, and etc., but I do not believe that a god created this world and everything on it. If someone proves it, I'll consider it. If someone comes up with a shred of evidence, (and there is a helluva lot more then a shred of evidence towards the theory of evolution) then I'll consider it. Untill then, no. Again, I'm not being hypocrytical, I'll be open minded when someone shows some proof, however, for you anti-atheists, there is evidence of the theory of evolution, and you are completely ignoring it. Idiocy will get you nowhere in life.

[KobraKaine]

Tell me... according to evolutionary theory, how old is the world?