European Exhibition Tournament

[Nux]

The exhibition tournament is running. If you're near our time-zone you can come spec it. If you're not you can see the demos that are made. The point of the exhibition is to give you some basis to your comments. If you see something you don't like you can point it out. If you don't actually see the affect of this mod it's easy to misjudge it.

They have s3 and you've been pushed back into your base? sounds like the aliens have done well. Now they're s3 all the control point will do is give them evos- but they're already tyrants so at best this'll just fuel another attack. They'll surround your base and most likely rush it like they would in your standard game.

If you had been the ones who got the kills and/or controlled the control point then you might have been the ones blocking their exits and getting stages/credits while they suffer.

The neat thing about the control point is how it acts as a hotspot for activity. Where many standard games degenerate into a solid state of affairs, the control point breaks the deadlock and keeps people moving. If you take the control point from them they'll either set off to get it back or forget about it and give you the advantage. In this way it can really add more depth to games.

[Lava Croft]

The main point is that while this mod might be very amusing to play, and adds a different layer of gameplay to Tremulous, one should not advertise it as a 'promod', since this implies it is a mod for 'pro' players, while it in essence is the opposite.
Maybe change the name of the mod to something that better covers what it actually is? Right now 'promod' is just as dumb a name as the infamous 'balance' mod has.

[Nux]

If the name turns out to be the worst thing about this mod then surely that's an accomplishment. Maybe Anti-Camp Mod might have been more appropriate but surely it's the mod itself that matters.

[Lava Croft]

A name creates expectations one might not want to create. Advertising it as a 'fixed' Tremulous is neither.

[tv]

This mod was created because we didn't want to launch a tournament where the competition would motivate people to camp, because sometimes the strategy works.

This is why the gameplay had to remain the same if none of the teams were extreme campers. So it's almost exactly like normal trem except you can't camp and seriously expect to win (well, you can still camp for ~6 minutes, the strategy isn't completely nerffed).

It turns out the mod works pretty well in FFA also, but it was first intended to be only used in clan wars, in a tournament... actually not even a tournament, a league. It's not that it's for l33ts, but you need individual skills and teamplay to go through with this mod, camping is of all the least skilled, so-called, "strategy". That's why it's called promod.

[Azrael07]

Why are you the only one who blame camping in CW ?

I have really few problem with it. Sometimes, game is very dynamic, sometime, more slow, but extrem camp in match ? really uncommon.

Why try to change gameplay (even a little one) to a situation never see ?

You said it is no effect on gameplay, what are you doing with Puzzola's videos ?

I said you are too weak to attacks bases, so because a weakened human's band unarmored waiting for your attack in there base, you say they camp, only because they don't feed you.

Try to work your base attack (FFA is great to learn to attack bases, but FFA is not enough "pro" for you, isn't it ?) instead of dream up stupid patchs to justify your weakness.

[[A]]

i like personal attacks when we are setting up and showing a new thing who look like well accepted  by the majority of people who are using it at the moment.

I like to see a clan who as been inactive in clanwar for some month telling to a clan who has done more than 150 rounds of cw-training-matches with more less all Europeans clans the last 2 month and winning more than 120 of them : "you are too weak to attacks bases" ... Are you realizing what are you saying ? Who are you to say that ?

Please thc, now it's enough, If you just want to attack the cy clan, do it in our clan topic where you did well started.

And about "puzzola's video" i have already answered, but you never read or just read what you like.

[Azrael07]

I like to see a clan who as been inactive in clanwar for some month telling to a clan who has done more than 150 rounds of cw-training-matches with more less all Europeans clans the last 2 month and winning more than 120 of them : "you are too weak to attacks bases" ... Are you realizing what are you saying ? Who are you to say that ?

oh, seems to be a trouble spot. You don't like someone said you have weakness ?

Sorry, you are the ultimate tremulous gods, strong everywhere :p

I like when my opposant say me what I must improve in my skill (on, probably in your side, my "non-skill" :p). But, sure, if you're perfect, you are nothing to improve, sorry !

And about "puzzola's video" i have already answered, but you never read or just read what you like.

Yes, of course, you reply. You turn around the problem. You can't give a real justification to explain why you want change tremulous gameplay, so I try to understand the real reason. Realy sorry if you take that like a personnal attack.

Now, tell me, how many CW, on 120 played, have a camping problem ? And, to focus WHAT is your definition of the camping ? Ok, I havn't done 120 CW (I have a social life too), but enough to say the camping is not a real problem in CW. Except if, for you, to not feed is to camp.

Why you don't stop to play against campers teams, rather than break the gameplay and the team balance ?
for me, /quit will be always the best choice against unfair teams. Maybe your thirst of victory is too strong to do that ? :p

who look like well accepted by the majority of people who are using it at the moment.

In other side... I will not use it if I don't accept it :p Another fake argument. Another again ?

[tv]

I've drafted a quick FAQ, I think it comes back on most comments and critics.

http://lawl.be/ETL/FAQ.html

tHc people, I won't answer anything related to camping the control points, feeding because of the control points or how campers are uncommon among tremulous clans. It's impossible to camp these points, and it shouldn't even be considered camping to stay next to them, there is no such thing as "feed" during a clan war, finally, this mod will be used for tournaments where you canno't choose your opponents.

I've replied to everything you said about a hundread times, all you do is repeat the same thing and claim in a sarcastic manner that CY are pretentious (which ain't true, we're all gods).

oh, seems to be a trouble spot. You don't like someone said you have weakness ?

How many times have you destroyed a human base while the whole team was camping in it, waiting for you to waste your evos ? (during a clan war, not FFA, this goes without saying)
If the answer is never I suggest you shut up. Nobody here agrees that you should rush a camped human base. (except well, if you're S3 and they're ruined)

But, sure, if you're perfect, you are nothing to improve, sorry !

Well so are you man, you can down a human base with a single dretch as it seems.

Yes, of course, you reply. You turn around the problem. You can't give a real justification to explain why you want change tremulous gameplay, so I try to understand the real reason. Realy sorry if you take that like a personnal attack.

Mark my words : the hell with campers. There's my reason. What's so hard to understand ?

The rest is about feed and not playing against campers. Read the FAQ.

who look like well accepted by the majority of people who are using it at the moment.

In other side... I will not use it if I don't accept it :p Another fake argument. Another again ?

Well, some people, unlike you, tried the mod and some of them realised their speculations were wrong. You sir, don't give a shit and are just flaming my topic.

Please don't talk about fake argumentation... your whole post is a joke.

[[A]]

Yes, of course, you reply. You turn around the problem. You can't give a real justification to explain why you want change tremulous gameplay, so I try to understand the real reason. Realy sorry if you take that like a personnal attack.

If you cant understand all what was said here by many people, it's not my problem, i know why we made it, we explained it, other people than us who have tested explain what are the effects good and bad.

I ll give you some exampleabout camping in cw that you good know :

bug vs wwf : first kill at 12 min, the two team was scared by each other and was waiting for the opponents
cy vs tulips first match : cy human s1 had to attack tulips goons in their own base because they was scared.
cy vs wwf : i had my first goon by time, 6 min without see a human and i was waiting on the human base door on karith, human dident get out their base before s2.
cy vs hsr (first match) : 8 kills down by cy aliens, human are waiting for maras attack in their own base. All the action of the game was made near the human base because they dident wanna get out and fight (no goons, just maras). Cy was sleeping near the human base with a mara and only one evo in reserve ... Not really enought to break a bunker fully of campers.

And many more example like that where game was static and boring, what should we do ? Running in the turret & acide tube with plucks in the ass to make them smile ?

we didn't want to make a league where people can paralyze the game like they want because they are scared or nubs. You admitted it and you told me about making the tournament with human judges who will decide who is camping and who is not during the game ... Pure shit, everybody will contest your decision and you judgment if you say they are camper. Here with the plugin you have a little modification of the gameplay, like a "way of fairness" to accept if you wanna play. So, no judgment, the plug in is a soft, it cant lie or be influenced.

All the clans which who we had good and fair games are agree or more less agree with the plug in, it's the most important for us, we don't care about you if is that all you wanna read.  you talk "don't play with campers" ? the plug in make that, campers will not like this and will not enter the tournament by them self.

The point is not --i wanna you to remove that or you made that because "you cant attack an alien base"-- The point is here we have a way to make a good tournament for all the people who like that kind of game. If you like, you enter and play, if you don't like, ... just pass your way, we will not change this for you, because you pass your time to criticize and flame all what is done by cy team.

Now you said your point of view, we know it, we said our, read it and the discussion with you is closed, i have nothing more to said, i don't tell you "you re wrong", i just say "i like what we are doing", and you are not the kind of people who will make change my/our opinions.

I know all what you think about this, anymore reply from you is now useless.

I m tired of this,i will not answer you anymore.

[Azrael07]

because you pass your time to criticize and flame all what is done by cy team

False. clans.tremulous.net is useful (I hope only you don't put individual stats), you're idea to make an "unlagged 20" was nice, we used this config for 2 months on our server Intoxication.

I criticize when CY watch all community from ahead and say "you don't think like we do, you're noob".

We contest your promod, and all you do is "if you don't like, go away and shut up". It's not very construtive.
Else to put the head in the floor and say "I know i'm right", we could try to speak and oppose arguments, like we usually do with other community members.

So, make your tournament, and admit I criticize and say why I think it's a bad idea. If you can't accept someone contest your point of view, run away the community, and run away all social relation.

One more time, you say me "shut up, all what you say is useless, I don't hear anything". But other people read, and can, throw a debate, make them self point of view. It's not with saying "I'm right" you can persuade someone.

I NEVER asked you to stop your tournament. I just explain why I don't want participate, I why I think this mod is fully useless, and harmful, and why recommand to other teams to don't participate to this tournament.

Thank to your open-mindedness, you take for you all we could say to criticize your ideas.

By the way.... remain the VIP patch
Head in the floor: "It will work, you'll see, it will work. If you don't like, shut up and leave the serveur." => VIP patch has killed Amphetamines.

[tv]

Thank you for your time. GOODBYE.

[Lava Croft]

Are you leaving?  :cry:

[Nux]

I hate it when people get angry in discussions =/ It's easy to get frustrated but debates go alot better when you can keep a cool temper and a level head.

[Azrael07]

Thank you for your time. GOODBYE.

I'm sorry to see you give me right. Goodbye

[Plague Bringer]

Few last points I'd like to make:

tv obviously broke down, looks like he couldnt "crack our base" (find enough weaknesses in our arguments).

There is such a thing as feeding in a clan war, just like there's feeding in public games. Anyone who says otherwise is in serious need of learning this game.

How can you say that staying near one spot waiting for your enemies is not camping? Who the fuck cares if you have structures around you or not? Camping is camping, you might as well put the control point outside human base on ATCS just to make people believe that you can't camp if there's no structures around you, you're just defending a point.

In Tremulous, Aliens assault, Humans defend. If the Humans can crack the Alien offense or sneak an operative into the Alien base, they win, if they can't, they loose. Get used to the gameplay, and don't try to change it to your liking.

Oh, and this "real Tremulous tournament" you were after will never happen. Tournaments are played without extreme modifications to teh game, just plain Tremulous.

[Eeeew Spiders]

I am not sure I am understanding most of what you guys are saying. As i understand the description given by tv and [A] about their Mod, it looks like its a Mod as in the word modification.
Mods, same as balance mod or TremX mod, is an alteration or modification to the standard game (I kinda feel stupid of having to say something simplistic as that).
Any comment to tremulous related to a mod is superfluous. This Mod introduces a different gameplay which is tied to the server that hosts tremulous with that mod. And it seems that CY and some other clans like that gameplay better. That's the reason why they created the mod and play with that mod.
So why not to have a tournament based on that mod?

Tournaments are played without extreme modifications to teh game, just plain Tremulous.

That's saying "you may not start a tournament based on TremX or Balance Mods". And I ask, why not?
The design of Q3 engine and Tremulous is that it does encourage for mods. One of the benefits of it being an open source game.

So what's left is the dislike of the name of the mod or its description.
a rose is a rose is a rose whatever her name.

Will the mod be successful, is it flawless.
For sure it's not flawless, otherwise they wouldn't ask for input. Will it be a success? That can only be determined by time and not by opinions about what kind of gameplay you personally favor.

[Plague Bringer]

The name of the mod is offensive to good players who camp when they are forced to because it's basically saying "you're a ubern00b if you camp, like, ever. That's what tv and [A] are saying, also.

A real Tremulous tournament is played without mods to the game, just normal Tremulous. Now, you can have a modded tournament, I'm not saying you can't. I'm just saying that this tournament will not be.. well, official, in the sense that the gameplay is changed from what Tremulous was intended to be.

In the demos I watched, the aliens all camped the control point. And I do mean CAMPED, tv. YES, you CAN camp in a clan war.

Oh, and this socalled "pro"mod was made with many flaws, one of which being that Humans are heavily base dependant (tv, you don't seem to understand that), therefore, it's impossible to hold a control point for six minutes with an alien offense. They need to reaload and heal. With the no build zone, they must trek all the way back to their base, leaving the control point unguarded (uncamped) or severly weakened in the defensive force.

[Eeeew Spiders]

The name of the mod is offensive to good players who camp when they are forced to because it's basically saying "you're a ubern00b if you camp, like, ever. That's what tv and [A] are saying, also.

So you only object to their statements and the naming of their mod? because

Now, you can have a modded tournament, I'm not saying you can't.

Good that we have that cleared and that they have your blessing for creating that tournament based on a mod.

The time has finally come, for a real Tremulous tournament.
I have seen a lot of attempts to such a thing, every two weeks a newbie tries to organize his own for the french community.

The interpretation of real in this context can only mean 'a working tremulous tournament' or 'real existing tournament', not real as in opposed to fake.

tournament will not be.. well, official,

You mean not official like the other official tournaments?
Btw, where did you pick up the word official? In the announcement of their tournament?

[Plague Bringer]

I'm not giving my blessing to them for creating a modded tournament. I know it takes work to develop a working mod, and I respect them for jumping into it and making a tournament, but I do not wish them luck.

I believe that their mod is underdeveloped, it gets rid of one camping problem, but another arises. Due to tv's cockyness and "full-of-himself-ness", he doesn't realise that all he's done is move where the aliens camp. Mind you, it's effective, but if the aliens get S3, no matter what the human's stage, they can still pin them in their base and the endgame will still be a campfest outside the human base untill SD.

I just got a Sudden Death alternative idea. It will allow humans to leave their base and attack at SD without the thought of it being completely destroyed.

[MayheM]

This very old match  you are talking wwF vs BUG was really a nightmare yes. They waited 6 min to get 3 points, after changing in goon that was difficult for us to attack them. When they were in dretch, they feared us ( Map : Niveus ) And we feared them when they were all goon, it's not really funny right, but as we are not ' pro', we support the fun and the profit of the experiment.
Finally your level, and your modesty being largely higher than the others, it's difficult for us to be leet/pro : (

wwF vs CY is also an old match, but in a context very different from that quoted above. You had blocked our two exits by camping them, and while waiting for that we attack them. What we did gently, without advancing too much yes, but did we it.
None of us included spectators seen camp here..

To finish, as I am only one French at the very average level, which doesn't  do anything others that to camp, my judgement doesn't have really importance.
Please god, let us be pro.

@Like the intelligence of the French community, my English level is very low.

[David]

That's saying "you may not start a tournament based on TremX or Balance Mods". And I ask, why not?

You can have a tournament based on tremX, just you can't call it a tremulous tournament.  It would be a tremX tournament.

What pisses me off with this is that they advertise it as a tremulous tournament, despite the fact that it isnt.

Also, the name sucks balls.  Its arrogant and condescending.

[Ezra]

Maps : Niveus & Tremor

Scores : (CY) 4 | [F]lame 0

The hardest and the most agressiv match i had ever play

Demos from both teams incoming :]

[Eeeew Spiders]

That's saying "you may not start a tournament based on TremX or Balance Mods". And I ask, why not?

You can have a tournament based on tremX, just you can't call it a tremulous tournament.  It would be a tremX tournament.

In your logic they would call it a pro tournament Imagine what an stir up this would cause
But all in all it is really then just the name thats disturbing.

From watching some games with this mode I don't detect much difference actually in over all play style by those teams that constantly rush anyways. As I have never seen the involved teams play without the mod though, its hard to tell what difference it really makes.
The games I saw were very fast paced, much faster over longer stretches of time than i usually have seen CWs or scrims played, though I am sure there are some other teams that can keep up.

But the control point does not seem to be that vital of an element than what i assumed it to be from reading the description. It plays its major role in S1 and becomes quite obsolete in S3. What I feel where it does make a difference is for those moments where a team tries to dry out the opposing team. That tactic becomes obsolete, as well as waiting for SD. But this unfortunately only until S3 if I have understood it correctly.

As for the long run. Eye is an awesome player and probably does make a big different. The other players do not seem to be as spectacular. But due to playing these kind of high paced games often, they achieved a very high level of fast play tactical understanding and I think that is what all is about.

I have also seen the team OPP play, and was equally amazed by their teamplay. But there I have seen this only happen in small bursts over longer periods of time. Same counts for some of the other very good north american teams (I have heard some good stuff about Zub for example, and I am sure there are more). I would be highly curious to see them match e.g. CY or [F]lame in an equal setting, their skill is highly sufficient for it to be a blast of a match. Its a big pitty that ping will not make this possible.

Don't get me wrong, from the north american scrims i watched i really saw some pearls of matches played when the best 4 or 5 north american teams are involved. The catenaccio style applied to human team strategies can be highly interesting to watch too from a tactical view point and requires strict team coordination.

Actually, anything that requires strict team coordination for me is a high level game. Both camping and feeding do not require this
And my opinion is that you don't actually need the mod for good games, but it can help to make a big change into those games that usually have a freeze-up in a static game where aliens camp around human base and humans rest in their base.

One last point I like to throw in, is that most of the european players are not native english speakers. So you may detect some semantics in their wordings that were not intended completely like that and may sound a bit different when said in their native language.

[Nux]

[F]lame Vs =V= [Niveus]

[F]lame Vs =V= [Tremor]

[F]lame Vs (CY) [Tremor]

[F]lame Vs (CY) [Niveus]

Watch out for that floating repeater (control point).

[[A]]

My personal feeling in the "cy vs flame etl match" :

Humans rules the game, it's obvious,

[F]lame are known as amazing dretches and monster goons, they got raped by cy humans.

CY is known to have the best alien gameplay with adv mara in eu, we are unbeatable with our mara for 3 month .... On tremor, humans [F]lame s1 Have broken our entire base when we was all adv-mara and we could do nothing !!!! They had no helmet, they was unstoppable, i have never seen that ... we was very close to lose ... very good action from flame

On niveus the same, the games was rules by humans from both team ... Aliens has just to undergo what humans decide to. Again we was very close to lose our alien round.

Very good game to [F]lame.

In my opinion and from the game i plaid, the rush is pro human, not pro alien, but it's only my opinion and i will not force someone to admit it.

my demos will follow soon.

[Nux]

I agree, humans did alot better than aliens generally. Your mara swarms did most of the work in turning that tables when we were human. I have to hand it to you, your teamwork is very impressive.

Please don't leave Eye =) the games more challenging with you around.

[tv]

The mod's name is perfect, because it all got your attention. Haha.

Anyway, 4 amazing rounds against [F]lames tonight. Shitting myself as a granger against S1 humans was a first for me. You guys who think you've figured out all of Tremulous and how aliens are so superior to humans it's only natural that they camp : watch the demos.

None of us included spectators seen camp here..

01:04 < janev> Raytray i was there speccing that match
01:04 < Raytray> janev, was it that bad?
01:04 < janev> yes wwf camped like mofoes
01:05 < Raytray> rofl.
01:05 < janev> Yeah worst campathon i have ever seen:)

That was janev talking about are (very) old war on karith yesterday. Can you believe it ? That was memorable, top-notch, camp MayheM. GG.

In the demos I watched, the aliens all camped the control point. And I do mean CAMPED, tv. YES, you CAN camp in a clan war.

Errrr... yeah I know you can camp in a clan war. That's why I made the mod, remember ?

Aliens aren't really camping the point in these demos. First, this is the usual spot Aliens stay at when playing on regular trem, and it seems obvious the aliens have to wait a bit, since they have so much more mobility... Luckily humans can take a shot at them from far away.

[Puzzola]

No one team used promod on these videos, just one time i think (i'm really not sure), CY (vs flame) on Niveus at S3, but not a strategy, they just took time to attack what made them to controle the repeater 6 min, which gave them an advantage they didn't need.

Yeah for these game, promod was useless because not used. I want to see a team who really play with promod, not who say something like: Hey, I'm going to the repeater to see what he look like.

But nice games Maybe [F]lame need more teamplay and less Rambo's individuals attacks against as skilled teams than themselves. They'll must learn to "camp" (tv's definition) xD

And....

OMG !!!! Nux cheat !!!!

Spectators, don't forget to shut yo... To throw your keyboard

(It's trite and stupid to say that: my english suxx  :oops: But i think i speak better english than some french speak french on some forums )

(Edit: screen)

[Nux]

The control point doesn't have to give out stages/points to have an affect on gameplay. When the humans decide to make an attack because they don't want the aliens to hold the control point for too long, then it has had an affect. The 6 minute bonus ideally would never be given to anyone.

Nux, one evo and it is finish for the CY!

I remember him saying that ^^ To clarify, he wasn't telling me anything I didn't know already. He noticed I had 2 evos and was anticipating my usual goon attack (usually in FFA people just don't know how to dodge so I have a picnic in their base head-chomping them one by one). I did get the third evo after killing eye on the om but he had already sawn it and the game was soon to end.