Unlagged: Good or Absolute Scum

[Blade]

i'm not talking about him or people like henners, who play in relativley isolated (in trem server standards) places. i'm talking about people in, say, the netherlands or central europe who play on west  cost (of america) servers. there should be a system that prevents you from joining servers that you get a 125+ ping on, unless it's one of the closest to you

There is such a system. Some cvar like sv_maxping. It's responsible for the message you get when you join a server and you see "Server is for low pings only." However, 125 is a ridiculous threshold. I learned the FPS genre playing Clancy shooters with pings that averaged 200. The only thing I and the other players were worried about was "How can I rape my opponent here and now?" 125 is not the cutoff point of playable/unplayable - there is, in fact, no such cutoff point. Nevertheless, sv_maxping is there for people to use.
edit: fixed your cvar name to avoid making a new post (we really need multiquote) - kev

[Nux]

The only reason why low ping players hate unlagged is that they can be easily killed by good players with high ping.

I have no problem with good players killing me when it happened 'naturally'. I know what this looks like because I face very experienced players who have low pings with me. What frustrated me is when a seemingly non-laggy goon chomps me from the other side of the room.

I don't understand about the programming of games and the implementation of unlagged, but why "unlagged" can't or will not be the default/native/natural behavior of the game engine?

It becoming the native gameplay is something I'm afraid of.

There is such a system. Some cvar like g_maxping. It's responsible for the message you get when you join a server and you see "Server is for low pings only." However, 125 is a ridiculous threshold.

This is a very handy feature. Personally I'd call anything higher than 100, laggy. I don't think those who play with higher pings know what they're missing.

[Warrior]

Nevertheless, g_maxping is there for people to use

And many servers are abusing it, limiting to 250 or less... a ping of 250 ping don't hurt anyone else than the player who have it.

[Nux]

Nevertheless, g_maxping is there for people to use

And many servers are abusing it, limiting to 250 or less... a ping of 250 ping don't hurt anyone else than the player who have it.

You clearly enjoy a different kind of game to me. Maybe I've been spoilt by the low-ping servers I frequent.

[Warrior]

You clearly enjoy a different kind of game to me. Maybe I've been spoilt by the low-ping servers I frequent.

I enjoy the same game of you, but I was just remembering my start when 1.1.0 was released and there was no server where I could get less than 200 ping. It took many months until some brazilian (jmonteiro) learned how to make servers... I don't remember if I made a server before him or not; however, my stupid connection (upload <<< download) doesn't allow my server to be a real server with more than 6 players. In those months, I learnt to play and needed to support such big pings and the inexistence of unlagged.
Well, I can say you learn more when playing with big pings, because it's harder... but not really funny.

[AKAnotu]

i'm not talking about him or people like henners, who play in relativley isolated (in trem server standards) places. i'm talking about people in, say, the netherlands or central europe who play on west  cost (of america) servers. there should be a system that prevents you from joining servers that you get a 125+ ping on, unless it's one of the closest to you

There is such a system. Some cvar like sv_maxping. It's responsible for the message you get when you join a server and you see "Server is for low pings only." However, 125 is a ridiculous threshold. I learned the FPS genre playing Clancy shooters with pings that averaged 200. The only thing I and the other players were worried about was "How can I rape my opponent here and now?" 125 is not the cutoff point of playable/unplayable - there is, in fact, no such cutoff point. Nevertheless, sv_maxping is there for people to use.
edit: fixed your cvar name to avoid making a new post (we really need multiquote) - kev

i'm talking about built in, because most servers dont have one, or it's set at like, 600

[kevlarman]

Nevertheless, g_maxping is there for people to use

And many servers are abusing it, limiting to 250 or less... a ping of 250 ping don't hurt anyone else than the player who have it.

actually...
anything above about 150 starts causing pretty big problems: if you've played on trem.tjw.org recently, you will undoubtedly have heard complaints about lagsaws... players with 200 ping end up having more "range" as they advance towards a goon that the goon who is backing up, and since saws do much more damage/second than anything in the game, humans all of a sudden have the best melee weapon in addition to the only ranged weapons. this is of course a little more extreme because of the saw range buff, but above 150 ping all weapons start to have similar issues.

[Warrior]

kev, is it some bug with unlagged?
btw kev, will you or tony improve/fix the can't-build-in-front-of-doors issue?

[kevlarman]

kev, is it some bug with unlagged?
btw kev, will you or tony improve/fix the can't-build-in-front-of-doors issue?

it's not a bug, it's an unfixable problem.[edit] to clarify, you can't magically make lag go away, there is latency between the clients and server and there's nothing you can do about it. what unlagged does is remove advantage of the person who pings 10 the server over the one who  pings 80, without putting either of them at a disadvantage (other than the fact that the guy with 10 ping no longer pwns the guy with 80 for no good reason), it continues to work reasonably well up to about 150 ping, but around there weird things start to happen that give high ping players an unfair advantage[/edit] i have the patch for the can't-build-in-front-of-doors bug on my hd, but it involves such a huge blanket exception that i'm not comfortable submitting it until i test it on a live server (something i'm lacking atm).

[Blade]

Everybody has to like the idea of unlagged. it's in the very name. Use this feature, and all your games will be as smooth as you could want them.

Except, they aren't. With surprisingly low pings (pings that would be tolerable in a "lagged" environment), you encounter all kinds of anomalies.

1) Since things no longer happen in real time, as they used to, it is possible for my fleeing tyrant to die while safely around a corner. This is the first thing everybody notices. In my time, I'm safe, in my enemy's time, I'm not. You see the same sort of thing happen with the roles reversed - a human might be running backwards off a ledge to try to get the hell away from my tyrant, but unlagged gives me a sort of range boost, so my enemy dies because I killed him in my time, even though he was safe in his time. My experience with any other game than Trem is that there is only one timeline as to when things happen, which is in the hands of the server: where the server thinks things are, not where the clients think things are.

2) Random hits. I can't explain the technical aspects of this, but I don't believe I'm the only one to have experienced it. It's most noticeable with the MD - you're taking what you hope are well aimed shots are your enemy, and one of them hits, but you immediately realize you didn't have your sights on the guy. It's like you are shooting at one dretch with multiple hitboxes.

3) Element of balance - The clearest example is the ATCS hallway - you gather a couple of would-be-bad-shots-without-unlagged naked rifles and stand them together, and no dretch can survive the stretch of hallway to attack them. It is my observation that dretch > lagged rifle and unlagged rifle > dretch.

Edit: Related thoughts...

Lagged and unlagged are not one and the same and so cannot be balanced the same. (I think this makes people think that the game should be standardized one way or the other, and since it would be impossible to completely get rid of all the unlagged servers, the way to standardize would be to mandate unlagged.) Personally I don't consider some perfect balance to be important, or possible, therefore I don't see it as something to strive for. We have two drastically different teams, and right now they are not balanced with unlagged or without it. But they are not egregiously imbalanced. The way to say it is the way the Supreme Court integrated schools - "separate is inherently unequal." I don't like unlagged or third party balance. Third party mods are great, but the idea of somebody saying "I have the secret to a perfectly balanced game. download HERE!" is nonsense.

You can't balance the game based off of players, because players themselves are imbalanced. The analogy is chess - white and black are mirrors of each other, so the players decide the match. To REALLY balance Tremulous, you would have to have players who are mirrors of each other (an impossibility) and tweak the teams until you can statistically show (by an infinite string of drawn games) that the teams are balanced. And at the very end of it, after you produce your two separate but equal (IMPOSSIBLE) teams, you hand them to a community of how many thousands of unique players?

[IJsje]

what unlagged does is remove advantage of the person who pings 10 the server over the one who  pings 80, without putting either of them at a disadvantage (other than the fact that the guy with 10 ping no longer pwns the guy with 80 for no good reason)

Bullshit, it gives a disadvantage to the 10 ping guy because he can't see what his 80 ping opponent is doing. It seems nobody actually understands what unlagged does besides making hitscan hitscan. It is really frustrating when I steer clear of a goon pounce only to be put back in range by unlagged because the guy has 80 ping.

Unlagged makes me have to guess for each opponent what ping he is playing with, where he is at on his screen, and where he is going. Without it I just need to compensate for my own ping (which I can do for up to about 140 without much loss of accuracy) Seems fair to you?

[temple]

1) Since things no longer happen in real time, as they used to, it is possible for my fleeing tyrant to die while safely around a corner. This is the first thing everybody notices. In my time, I'm safe, in my enemy's time, I'm not. You see the same sort of thing happen with the roles reversed - a human might be running backwards off a ledge to try to get the hell away from my tyrant, but unlagged gives me a sort of range boost, so my enemy dies because I killed him in my time, even though he was safe in his time. My experience with any other game than Trem is that there is only one timeline as to when things happen, which is in the hands of the server: where the server thinks things are, not where the clients think things are.

2) Random hits. I can't explain the technical aspects of this, but I don't believe I'm the only one to have experienced it. It's most noticeable with the MD - you're taking what you hope are well aimed shots are your enemy, and one of them hits, but you immediately realize you didn't have your sights on the guy. It's like you are shooting at one dretch with multiple hitboxes.

3) Element of balance - The clearest example is the ATCS hallway - you gather a couple of would-be-bad-shots-without-unlagged naked rifles and stand them together, and no dretch can survive the stretch of hallway to attack them. It is my observation that dretch > lagged rifle and unlagged rifle > dretch.

Edit: Related thoughts...

Lagged and unlagged are not one and the same and so cannot be balanced the same. (I think this makes people think that the game should be standardized one way or the other, and since it would be impossible to completely get rid of all the unlagged servers, the way to standardize would be to mandate unlagged.) Personally I don't consider some perfect balance to be important, or possible, therefore I don't see it as something to strive for. We have two drastically different teams, and right now they are not balanced with unlagged or without it. But they are not egregiously imbalanced. The way to say it is the way the Supreme Court integrated schools - "separate is inherently unequal." I don't like unlagged or third party balance. Third party mods are great, but the idea of somebody saying "I have the secret to a perfectly balanced game. download HERE!" is nonsense.

You can't balance the game based off of players, because players themselves are imbalanced. The analogy is chess - white and black are mirrors of each other, so the players decide the match. To REALLY balance Tremulous, you would have to have players who are mirrors of each other (an impossibility) and tweak the teams until you can statistically show (by an infinite string of drawn games) that the teams are balanced. And at the very end of it, after you produce your two separate but equal (IMPOSSIBLE) teams, you hand them to a community of how many thousands of unique players?

Bullshit, it gives a disadvantage to the 10 ping guy because he can't see what his 80 ping opponent is doing. It seems nobody actually understands what unlagged does besides making hitscan hitscan. It is really frustrating when I steer clear of a goon pounce only to be put back in range by unlagged because the guy has 80 ping.

Unlagged makes me have to guess for each opponent what ping he is playing with, where he is at on his screen, and where he is going. Without it I just need to compensate for my own ping (which I can do for up to about 140 without much loss of accuracy) Seems fair to you?

Neither one of you know what Unlagged is.

You can't outrun a bullet.  Hitscan weapons are instant hit.  You can't dodge it.

You can dodge where I'm aiming.  But if I fire a bullet at you, no matter what ping or what speed you are moving, you are hit.  The only way you could dodge a bullet is if you are moving faster than a bullet.  Does any alien class move that fast?

All Unlagged does is roll back the sever by a few milliseconds to check if something happened when the server was busy.  Since hitscan weapons are instant and servers can't process anything instantly, it possible to shoot something faster than the server can process it.  So, players can move away but still get shot down.  The player did move but not faster than the bullet.  Its not because the game is slower, its because the server is more accurate in what it reports.  

Don't trust what you see on your screen or what you think the other person sees.   Doesn't matter if it is Unlagged or not.  You are thinking 'They couldn't possibly shoot me that fast' when in reality 'You can't run away that fast'.

edit: Its the same for alien classes.  If a goon pounces or a rant mauls you and you thought you got away, you didn't.  You can't move faster than a maul or a close range pounce.  The human movement is slower than those attacks.  Its impossible.  The problem is you misjudged when they were going to attack.  Its like the saying and fact that 'the hand is faster than the eye'.  They can move or attack faster than you can respond to, let alone move away.   You are just used to lag compensating for your poor judgement.

[Nux]

I think I can explain this. We have four levels of preference:

-Low-ping games without Unlagged-

The top one is preferable to all people. Low-ping games don't have the upredictable chomps across rooms or the bullets round corners. Instead, all the unpredictability is down to the cunning of your opponent.


-High-ping games with Unlagged-

For those who can't achieve the top level, they take the next one down. When you're too far from any populated server, you have to settle for a laggy one. Thanks to unlagged, this experience isn't so bad.


-High-ping games without Unlagged-

All the people who can't achieve the top level, wouldn't settle for anything less than unlagged.


-Low-ping games with Unlagged-

No one would use unlagged when there isn't a lag problem.

I get this impression when I talk to these trem-players who like unlagged. They seem to believe it a cold fact that if you don't choose unlagged, you will have lag. As many european players might tell you, there are plenty of lowping servers in a small area here and so we don't have that problem. Kevlarman, IJsje and me all seem to think generally 100+ pings are laggy. This is because we're used to playing low-ping games. I can imagine that people who are used to playing on high-ping servers have a very different idea of what lag is.

I'd like to ask here that unlagged will always have an off switch. I'm happy to let those who like unlagged keep their unlagged on their servers. I'm not happy to hear that those people want it to be always on. These people clearly don't understand how it disrupts low-pingers. As I said earlier on, I've had unlagged games where both me and some player have pings around about 50 and yet he warped like hell on my screen. I've had games where the majority of players were low-ping, but one person was heavily lagging. He didn't look like he was lagging so it was quite a shock to see him chomp me from across the room. There's also been many times I've been shot round corners. This is all with unlagged correcting things that shouldn't be corrected on low-ping games.

EDIT:

what unlagged does is remove advantage of the person who pings 10 the server over the one who  pings 80, without putting either of them at a disadvantage (other than the fact that the guy with 10 ping no longer pwns the guy with 80 for no good reason

That sounds very similar to how I put it in my original post. My only complaint is when you say "other than the fact that the guy with 10 ping no longer pwns the guy with 80 for no good reason". I'd say that WITH unlagged, the guy with 80 ping has a very good reason to be pwnd. His connection can't send the information fast enough for his skillz to be properly translated. That guy might be a very good player, but that doesn't mean the server should decide he probably would have hit me while he's lagging. If anything, there's no good reason for the goon that was clearly across the room to have chomped me. How was I supoposed to react to something I couldn't see happening? In a low-ping (and no unlagged) game, I'd have the opportunity to see his pounce and dodge it.

I'll point out that your impression of what lag is must be different to most of the pro-unlagged people here as you think that 80 is a high ping. To them this ping is luxuriously low.

[David]

-Low-ping games with Unlagged-

No one would use unlagged when there isn't a lag problem.

I would.

Unless its a lan game with everyone under 5, then unlagged should be on.

Also, can someone who understands unlagged post exactly what it does and how.  As in the exact details.  Then we can just ignore these losers who dont understand it and are just pissed they lost there unfair advantage.

edit:

His connection can't send the information fast enough for his skillz to be properly translated.

Its nothing to do with speed.  Its latency.  The speed of light.  His connection might be faster than yours, just each packet has an extra 100ms travel time.  Its a fact of life how the internet works.  Live with it.

[Nux]

-Low-ping games with Unlagged-

No one would use unlagged when there isn't a lag problem.

I would.

Unless its a lan game with everyone under 5, then unlagged should be on.

Also, can someone who understands unlagged post exactly what it does and how.  As in the exact details.  Then we can just ignore these losers who dont understand it and are just pissed they lost there unfair advantage.

edit:

His connection can't send the information fast enough for his skillz to be properly translated.

Its nothing to do with speed.  Its latency.  The speed of light.  His connection might be faster than yours, just each packet has an extra 100ms travel time.  Its a fact of life how the internet works.  Live with it.

In my experience, unlagged affects events that were lag free because it's always busy re-deciding what happened.

If we sent signals via optical wiring all the way then the speed of light would still never be reached. Thanks to multipath dispersion, the signal would have to be boosted every so often down the line. The speed of light is only a limit to the transfer of information. That doesn't mean we can transfer that fast. We don't, however, use light for this communication. Electricity is ALOT slower than light. Though the processing time at nodes does have an affect, over large distances you can't help there being a slow connection between the nodes. If one node could send packets at a faster rate and the other could recieve them just as fast, you could in theory counter this affect. Most people just don't have that fast a connection.

[IJsje]

You can dodge where I'm aiming.

Not if I do not see where you are aiming

All Unlagged does is roll back the sever by a few milliseconds to check if something happened when the server was busy.  

No, it rolls back the server my the amount of time it took the packet to travel from its origin (in other words, it compensates for ping, not for the fact that the server only runs at 20 fps)

So, players can move away but still get shot down.  The player did move but not faster than the bullet.  Its not because the game is slower, its because the server is more accurate in what it reports.

I like my game where I can see what opponent does instead of guessing it. This is because I am capable of responding in time to do something about it. If you can't I understand why you post this bullshit, but please stfu if you don't understand the problem. There IS a time between sending and receiving a packet and you can not make it go away, at best you can mask it at the expense of other players accurate reporting.

I will write my little story once again as nobody seems to understand this.

The is human with a shotgun and a dretch each at one side of the corner (on tremor, the dretch is hiding). The dretch has ping of 10, the human has a ping of 200. The human comes around the corner, the dretch walks up to him and BOEM!, the human aims his shotgun at the corner where the dretch was hiding, but moved  away from, the dretch gets warped back and dies. Thank you unlagged, you really made a better game for all!

[Dracone]

Well the reason it APPEARS that they die after getting around the corner is because unlagged does NOT change how fast the shots connect. So you can have 500 ping, put the last shot into a tyrant, and because you had it on him when you shot, the unlagged will do its job and after that pause the bullet will connect. With unlagged, the bullets always hit what you shot at, but your ping still affects when the damage will actually occur.

[Eeeew Spiders]

As Nux has pointed out, whether or not somebody likes Unlagged is dependant if that person usually has high ping or not.
I most certainly agree that someone who is forced to play on servers where he has a ping of over 100/150 ms has more benefit of his aiming skills when unlagged is on. But this is not the only valid point in discussing if Unlagged is better or worse in a more general point of view.

So what Unlagged basically does when I understand it correctly is attribute a hit to the player when that player had his opponent in his crosshair at the time of the shot in regards of his own time, so exactly like the client showed it to player, but regardless of the ping he has to the server and how the server or other clients saw the situation.

What Unlagged does not even out is the time difference between the move made by a player and the time that move gets registered by the opponent when the moving player has a high ping to the server. The result is that I can be killed by a high ping tyrant or a pounce+chomping goon before I had a chance to see the creature move at all. I had no time to initiate a dodge when in a low ping scenario I would have had. So as Unlagged helps to attribute a correct but timeshifted kill to a player, it has the very opposite impact on players that rely heavily on dodging and moving.
The same for a low ping creature attacking a high ping hitscan wielding human. While the low ping animal sees the high ping human turned the other way and takes that opportunity to initiate an attack, the human can already have turned around facing the alien for a good aim while the server and attacking low ping alien haven't yet registered the turn because the package with that move information is still on its way to reach the server.

So everything that used to work as an advantage to the low pinger with Unlagged off turns into an advantage to the high pinger with Unlagged on.
Its very naturally that a high pinger thinks that this is a gift from heaven while the low pinger considers this to be a curse. So the question is if your personal ping status should be the basis of deciding if Unlagged is good or not? Based on the servers I play where 90 percent of all participants have a lag of around 50-70ms, I simply hope I continue to have enough servers   available for a close to real time game.

You can't change the past, except with unlagged In that sense, Unlagged defeats science as we know it today

[Warrior]

Think: unlagged gives both high and low pings the time they need to complete an attack to the enemy. Imagine: Warrior - ping=260, Morpheus - ping=10; Warrior's Dretch see Morpheus and aim at his head and hit; Morpheus is human and fire his Rifle on Warrior's Dretch; Morpheus is having a bad day and don't kill Warrior; now, the last bullet that will kill Warrior: it hits Warrior 250ms (260-10) before Warrior notices it, but in the same time Warrior hit Morpheus in the feet and killed him (Morpheus had 4hp before). Expected result with unlagged: both will die after unlagged does it math. Without unlagged: Morpheus killed Warrior, which don't even have the chance to hit him and should blame his ping.

In a new case, Warrior's Lasgun fired a bullet in Morpheus's Tyrant when this was in his vision, of course that bullet will hit the big monster even when it is hidden behind the corner in his low-ping vision, but Warrior really hit Morpheus in his high-ping vision.

unlagged affects events that were lag free because it's always busy re-deciding what happened.

So, your server uses a 486 processor that takes that long to make calcs?

I'm not happy to hear that those people want it to be always on.

If developers use their brains to make it better (fixing bugs and other issues), it could be the default and single behavior. It's like the new tjw's turrets: they got many fixes after the conception...

Unlagged really helps high-pingers, but also turns the game harder for low-pingers. I can say people with 100+ ping kill me very easy on my server where I have almost 0 ping and unlagged is on. Before unlagged, I called myself a semi-god (like Heracles) (lol), because high-pings can't almost kill low-pings without unlagged.
Want invincibility? Play with your null (zero) ping on a server full of 250+ pings without unlagged.
Want to fight like a warrior? Play with 250 ping on a lagged server (without unlagged) and in the map Arachnid2 (one of the worse maps in lag aspect) with 25+ people on the server.
Want a balanced fight? Play on an unlagged server with you low-ping against low or high pings (it doesn't matter too much).

Am I stupid/crazy enough today to write this much?

[kevlarman]

1) Since things no longer happen in real time, as they used to, it is possible for my fleeing tyrant to die while safely around a corner.

it's possible for this to happen without unlagged also, the only reason you notice it with unlagged on is that we made the mistake of saying "you might die around the corner when you wouldn't have normally once in every 10 games at most" (i've been counting, it's happened to me exactly twice, and one of those i'm reasonably sure would have happened without unlagged).

 This is the first thing everybody notices. In my time, I'm safe, in my enemy's time, I'm not. You see the same sort of thing happen with the roles reversed - a human might be running backwards off a ledge to try to get the hell away from my tyrant, but unlagged gives me a sort of range boost, so my enemy dies because I killed him in my time, even though he was safe in his time. My experience with any other game than Trem is that there is only one timeline as to when things happen, which is in the hands of the server: where the server thinks things are, not where the clients think things are.

false again, wolf:et has the same type of code, as did the original half life (and all derivative games as a result *cough*counterstrike*cough*), it's much more common to include antilag in new fpses than it is not to.

2) Random hits. I can't explain the technical aspects of this, but I don't believe I'm the only one to have experienced it. It's most noticeable with the MD - you're taking what you hope are well aimed shots are your enemy, and one of them hits, but you immediately realize you didn't have your sights on the guy. It's like you are shooting at one dretch with multiple hitboxes.

contrary to popular belief, all weapons fire instantly, there is no delay between clicking the button and you taking a shot. you "see" a delay because your client doesn't actually know that you fired your weapon until the server tells you that you did, which can be more than enough time for that dretch to move out from under your crosshairs, at which point you will hit the dretch and see a blood mark where you fired your shot.

3) Element of balance - The clearest example is the ATCS hallway - you gather a couple of would-be-bad-shots-without-unlagged naked rifles and stand them together, and no dretch can survive the stretch of hallway to attack them. It is my observation that dretch > lagged rifle and unlagged rifle > dretch.

first of all, bringing up atcs in a discussion of balance = fail. second of all, i don't see a problem evening out the alien win ratio of 65% a little.

Edit: Related thoughts...

Lagged and unlagged are not one and the same and so cannot be balanced the same. (I think this makes people think that the game should be standardized one way or the other, and since it would be impossible to completely get rid of all the unlagged servers, the way to standardize would be to mandate unlagged.) Personally I don't consider some perfect balance to be important, or possible, therefore I don't see it as something to strive for. We have two drastically different teams, and right now they are not balanced with unlagged or without it. But they are not egregiously imbalanced. The way to say it is the way the Supreme Court integrated schools - "separate is inherently unequal." I don't like unlagged or third party balance. Third party mods are great, but the idea of somebody saying "I have the secret to a perfectly balanced game. download HERE!" is nonsense.

people who say that unlagged drastically changes balance do so because they play one game on an unlagged server and come to the forums to complain. when unlagged was completely new and everyone was getting used to it, the balance stats on the first few servers to run it didn't change appreciably. if anything, i think unlagged benefits aliens more than humans, because the largest difference is on weapons that do damage in large bursts, which is basically the entire alien team with the exception of basi.

You can't balance the game based off of players, because players themselves are imbalanced. The analogy is chess - white and black are mirrors of each other, so the players decide the match. To REALLY balance Tremulous, you would have to have players who are mirrors of each other (an impossibility) and tweak the teams until you can statistically show (by an infinite string of drawn games) that the teams are balanced. And at the very end of it, after you produce your two separate but equal (IMPOSSIBLE) teams, you hand them to a community of how many thousands of unique players?

this isn't really relevant to the discussion of unlagged, so i won't comment.

[Blade]

it's possible for this to happen without unlagged also, the only reason you notice it with unlagged on is that we made the mistake of saying "you might die around the corner when you wouldn't have normally once in every 10 games at most"

...what? I notice it because I see it happen, not because of what "we" said once upon a time.

And you'll never hear me say that unlagged drastically offsets the already shaky balance between the teams, but it has noticeable effects on gameplay.

[temple]

IJsje
No, it rolls back the server my the amount of time it took the packet to travel from its origin (in other words, it compensates for ping, not for the fact that the server only runs at 20 fps)

That doesn't change anything.  If a dretch is at that point, at that time, and you fired, what should happen?

I like my game where I can see what opponent does instead of guessing it.......

You don't like hitscan weapons.  That's fair.  But how the fuck are you going to dodge a bullet?  

The is human with a shotgun and a dretch each at one side of the corner (on tremor, the dretch is hiding). The dretch has ping of 10, the human has a ping of 200. The human comes around the corner, the dretch walks up to him and BOEM!, the human aims his shotgun at the corner where the dretch was hiding, but moved  away from, the dretch gets warped back and dies. Thank you unlagged, you really made a better game for all!

So, its sounds like the dretch got shot and is pissed that his ping didn't save him.  

Here's the whole Unlagged story.

-If you are at point A at time B
-Human shoots point A at time B
-You get shot.  

Sure you may think you are dodging, but you actually fucked it up a couple 100 milliseconds ago.  It sucks to die late but you would have died sooner.

Eeeew Spiders

What Unlagged does not even out is the time difference between the move made by a player and the time that move gets registered by the opponent when the moving player has a high ping to the server.

That's not true because a high pinger isn't going to move as fast or precise as a low pinger.  The high pinger tyrant is the one that's going to sitting out in the open while waiting for the update, swiping at ghosts that aren't there anymore.  Their times won't sync up for Unlagged to compensate because the high ping tyrant will be trying to swipe someone at a time when they have already moved, so unless they are already close or shooting, they can't possibly attack without being countered.

[Iltama]

I've no idea how the unlagged works nor will to figure it out, but I know one thing for sure: "I hate it".

[Survivor]

The is human with a shotgun and a dretch each at one side of the corner (on tremor, the dretch is hiding). The dretch has ping of 10, the human has a ping of 200. The human comes around the corner, the dretch walks up to him and BOEM!, the human aims his shotgun at the corner where the dretch was hiding, but moved  away from, the dretch gets warped back and dies. Thank you unlagged, you really made a better game for all!

So, its sounds like the dretch got shot and is pissed that his ping didn't save him.  

Here's the whole Unlagged story.

-If you are at point A at time B
-Human shoots point A at time B
-You get shot.  

Sure you may think you are dodging, but you actually fucked it up a couple 100 milliseconds ago.  It sucks to die late but you would have died sooner.

Yes but if the human would have seen the 200 pinger moving towards him he might have dodged and got him in the second blast. As you describe it however the human never gets that chance because it goes from corner to kill without letting the human see the dretch cross the intervening space. I think that is what people are uncomfortable with.

[kevlarman]

it's possible for this to happen without unlagged also, the only reason you notice it with unlagged on is that we made the mistake of saying "you might die around the corner when you wouldn't have normally once in every 10 games at most"

...what? I notice it because I see it happen, not because of what "we" said once upon a time.

but if you saw it happen without unlagged on a server, would you come to the forums to complain about it? people complain that they can't dodge because their position is inaccurate relative to what the server sees, but this is already true without unlagged. (find a server where you get 80 ping and set cg_nopredict 1 to see what i mean)

And you'll never hear me say that unlagged drastically offsets the already shaky balance between the teams, but it has noticeable effects on gameplay.

sorry if i misinterpreted your words, it sounded a lot like one or more of the standard antiunlagged arguments that have no logic backing them up (which are "it screws balance", "i get killed around the corner", "it makes it 'too easy'")

[Ezra]

Scum when players have all low ping (generally in EU cw).

Maybe in USA it's different, coz many country ? Dunno.

[IJsje]

IJsje
No, it rolls back the server my the amount of time it took the packet to travel from its origin (in other words, it compensates for ping, not for the fact that the server only runs at 20 fps)

That doesn't change anything.  If a dretch is at that point, at that time, and you fired, what should happen?

I will tell you this once more. The dretch IS NOT THERE. As you said, he gets put back in time. He IS NOT THERE. Only because the other guy's computer is receives the information that the dretch is there 100 milliseconds later, does NOT mean the dretch IS THERE. It isn't. It has moved. The information regarding the moving of the dretch has simply not arrived at the other guys computer. Sucks for the other guy but not for the dretch as he is not there. He moved, received acknowledgment from the server and IS NOT there. His monitor is showing him on the other side of the other guy. The guy who is watching from specs sees the dretch on the other side of the human. And yet you claim he is their. Why is that?

You don't like hitscan weapons.  That's fair.  But how the fuck are you going to dodge a bullet?

I do not dodge bullets, it is the internet, it has lag, I move from where you are aiming at.

So, its sounds like the dretch got shot and is pissed that his ping didn't save him.

He never got a chance, they guy shot him first and then he comes around the corner on his screen. Kinda sucks don't you think. The dretch got pissed he couldn't do anything about being shot because the other guy has a high ping because he is playing on dial-up from the other end of the globe while he is playing on his expensive internet connection and connected to a server that is sitting in the building next to him.

Here's the whole Unlagged story.

-If you are at point A at time B
-Human shoots point A at time B
-You get shot.

That is from the humans point of view, yes. From the dretch's point of view however:

- Dretch not at point A at time B
- Human shoots point A at time B
- You get shot

Sure you may think you are dodging, but you actually fucked it up a couple 100 milliseconds ago.  It sucks to die late but you would have died sooner.

How can I fuck up dodging if I don't see the human. He only comes around the corner on my monitor 210 ms after he shot and seen me on his.

[kangounator]

It seems that i'll have to explain how unlagged change the time.

In a game without unlagged what you see is what the server sees your ping in the past ...

You see a dretch, and you fire at it at time 0

The server wil know you fired at <your ping> in the futur

Conclusion : with a low ping it's good, with high ping it is not ... you only have to manage your own ping (and after a few game you begin to know it well)

the dretch will have seen you fire <his ping> after the server know you fired, he is dead <his ping> in the past...

without unlagged your ping does not change anything except what you see. I mean that it does not change ANYTHING for the server.



Now with unlagged

at time 0 you fire at that dretch
the server will know you fired at time <your ping>
what you had on your screen was <your ping> in the past (-<your ping>)
the server will go back to <your ping> in the past, so that what you see is what you get (you fired at a dretch that was in your crosshair)
you kill the dretch at -<your ping> in the past

kwel, that was easy

now for the dretch it's not the same, the server sent to him that he was dead <your ping> after you fired, that is to say <2*your ping> before the server send "you are dead" to the dretch
then that message takes <his ping> to travel from the server to the dretch

he was killed <2*your ping + his ping> in the past

imagine that you have like 10 of ping and that he as got 200 of ping
without unlagged he died 200msec in the past (for him) ... damn his ping is shit ... he should play somewhere else
with unlagged he died 220 msec in the past (for him) ... damn his ping is shit ... he should play somewhere else

no real difference when a good pinger attack you

now imagine you've got a ping off 200 and that he's got one of 10
without unlagged he died 10msec in the past ... he should have dodged your fire ... what a nub he is
with unlagged he died 410msec in the past ... OMG!!!!§§§§§!!!!ZOMG!!!!!§§§!!!!!!§§§!!!!!§§!!!111 HE WAS MILES AWAY BUT YOU SHOT HIM

in fact he could not escape
he even did not know you had seen him and his dodge got no use because you kill him in the past ...

Here you can see that high pingers got a HUGE power : they can kill in the past

that's why i hate unlagged, that rollback thing seems kwel ... but in fact it sucks


(and for those that use unlagged 20 i say looool : it corrects only 10 of ping that is to say nothing)

[temple]

IJsje
I will tell you this once more. The dretch IS NOT THERE. As you said, he gets put back in time. He IS NOT THERE. Only because the other guy's computer is receives the information that the dretch is there 100 milliseconds later, does NOT mean the dretch IS THERE. It isn't. It has moved. The information regarding the moving of the dretch has simply not arrived at the other guys computer. Sucks for the other guy but not for the dretch as he is not there. He moved, received acknowledgment from the server and IS NOT there. His monitor is showing him on the other side of the other guy. The guy who is watching from specs sees the dretch on the other side of the human. And yet you claim he is their. Why is that?

The issue with that is that if you open and he saw you, you died.  You thought you weren't seen but you were.  

This goes both ways, so its not an advantage.  

It also depends on the time that the dretch moved.  If dretch moved earlier and the guy sees the dretch and fires, the times of the dretch's position have to match up with the time of the fire.  If they match, its a kill.  So, you can move out and move back.  But just because you moved back before you saw the shot, doesn't mean you are safe.  You depending on being able to time your reaction to their shots when in reality, you are just setting yourself up to get shot.  Its an instant weapon, stop trying to beat the bullet.  


Otherwise, Unlagged knows that the human didn't shoot the right place and the right time won't accredit the kill, regardless of what the kills says.   They can be running in slow motion on their client but they won't get kills that aren't consistent with the server space.  

What it seems like is the dretch moves late.

[Eeeew Spiders]

temple, most of what you say is all true. It's true that in a 0-0 ping situation you cannot evade a shot by a hitscan weapon when the shot is being fired.
Also, would it be great that when you have something in your crosshair and you shoot that moment that it is also registered as a kill by the server regardless of your ping? Yes, that would be tremendous, and i would also encourage any endeavours in that matter by developers.

But all the above points is not what is being challenged. Maybe things get more clear if stretching the numbers to extremes.

Lets say a human player or a tyrant has 2000ms of lag with Unlagged ON. That would be 2 minutes. In those 2 minutes, he could walk up into the opponents base, shoot or swipe at everything he sees and then walks back to his own base.
For the killed players it will look like this: You hear an enemy approaching. Instead of attacking you decide to leave the base through the other door. When you glance shortly back to the space you are leaving you see the player entering your base, shoots randomly at empty spots hitting nothing, the server suddently says you are dead while you are not even in the same room anymore and you see the opponent walking back to his base with a higher killcount than he had when he entered the base.

Now to come back to a more realistic setting, simply reduce the lagging players ping while at the same time reducing the distance he has to move to get you in your sight.