[Concept]Gaia: Server Admins as Dungeon Masters?

[player1]

This idea was split off from another thread by me, because it was about another, much deeper idea, which seems like it would be better in its own thread, since coders had actually begun discussing particle systems in that other thread, whereas this idea is only at the concept art work stage.

Just skimmed through this topic a bit, and I caught the 0bp build-ables comment. This game me an idea..

    What about a third team, let's call them gaia. They're unplayable, and their only purpose is to supply destructible objects placeable in layout and GTKRadiant? You could have simple objects, such as boxes from Tremor, and Niveus. Computer consoles from Nexus6. Various heights and sizes for walls and similar objects, perhaps even planks or bridges that could be put over a gap. Objects like this could be just for eye-candy in some maps, but they could also serve as game play altering aspects of others.

    Perhaps it could introduce a subtle objective system. The humans have to get across the bridge to their new base spot before it's destroyed. Humans have to get a base up before the boxes blocking the alien's path is destroyed. These objectives wouldn't need any further coding, they'd simply be common knowledge for map veterans, just the same as common base moves and times are to most of us older players.

I think I've suggested something extremely similar in past.

something like this could be part of sinle player maybe

On the "gaia" team, I suggested at one point a robot factory that churns out (stupid) little robots when it is disturbed. Once produced, these annoying drones will attack aliens and humans indiscriminately.
Nonetheless, my idea got mixed reviews, although it was probably the most feasible and realistic idea for a third race ever created.

Back then we had no genius AI coder Amine to code us bots.

I loved that idea. Let's revive it! Thread necro, here I come!

Gaia could have many uses. The sentinel creating factory, (in)discriminatory defenses (perhaps organic weapons that attack only humans, sentry turrets that attack only aliens, or some other form of defense that attacks both species), destructible barrels, computers, boxes, "gibbable" corpses, et cetera, could all be made possible by the implementation of a non-player team. I doubt anything like this would make it into an official release while it's just taking off, but who knows, perhaps a mod could become popular and the devs'd get hooked on the idea.

-p.s....

Gaia could have some structures that give rewards when destroyed, such as a boost of cash or build points. Perhaps they could also speed up staging by removing a few kills. Gaia is open to any NPC build-ables, as they can be discriminatory or in-discriminatory, and since they are in no way affected by human players, they needn't follow any particular theme or purpose. They're neither here, nor there.

this is turning to be quite interesting, cool :-)

lets brainstorm some, i'd like to be inspired to make concept art :-)

Yay, concept art for the barrel!
gif

Fun intended.

I'd work on some concept art, too.

Before we get further into this project, I'd like to know if there are any coders willing to take up this project. Mind you, any artwork I do for this would be good for a portfolio, I'd just like to know whether or not any of it would be used.

i was thinking about the gaia stuff... but happy that there are more swift fingers out there :-)

@Opti & PB: Perhaps at this point in would be useful to start a Gaia thread, and fork off here now from the concept of simply destructible environments (especially since actual coders are having an entirely different discussion). As a matter of fact, I'll start one for you, and you can explain your ideas and post your art there.

Plague Bringer, as I understand it, you are talking about a sort of Dungeon Master third team, who would move artifacts around existing maps to get more playability out of the popular maps and the default maps?

So far the ideas I liked were the robot factory, and the exploding barrels, which go together nicely, and now this whole thing reminds me of my favorite parts of Deus Ex.

edited to make it thusly

[Death On Ice]

That might be cool, but of course it would have to be a mod.

[player1]

Indeed it would (my bad). Maybe once Plague Bringer and + OPTIMUS + find their way here, a moderator will be kind enough to move it to Mods or GD. If a mod doesn't have the time, I'll do it once the wayward prodigals have found us.

[Revan]

I like the gaia idea, or the robot factory idea in the Sentinel thread

[==Troy==]

you forgot to quote me, saying that it is possible with server-side only implementation

[player1]

Thanks ==Troy==, I wasn't sure if I got them all, and I actually thought you were partly responding to what Taiyo & techhead were talking about (making different surfaces be affected differently be various weapons).

[==Troy==]

Ill set it this way :

A server can create an entity of a certain model, specified by a mapper, and destroy it upon certain circumstances.

A server can create ANY particle effect in ANY place due to ANY circumstances.

That is for sure. There are a lot of things a server can do, such as change sound volume on the client side, change its brightness, FOV value and pretty much any other cvar (havent tested it thoroughly but afaik it can), send entities, create them, destroy them, and entities include everything you see in game. Clients, doors, buildables, brushes etc.

You will be surprised of how many things you can do with just map content + some server side modifications.

[ShadowNinjaDudeMan]

All you need to begin with is a crate that can be pushed around, and exploding barrel, and a mole that follows you around creepily.

No, but seriously, this is an ace idea, you could basically build up a library of entities to use while mapping.
Itd be like my obsession with collecting shit maps, only have about 4 non-standard shit maps, I dont release too many maps nowadays.

[Rocinante]

Indeed it would (my bad). Maybe once Plague Bringer and + OPTIMUS + find their way here, a moderator will be kind enough to move it to Mods or GD. If a mod doesn't have the time, I'll do it once the wayward prodigals have found us.

Moved - though the board name doesn't seem to fit the content of this thread, the contents of the board aren't limited to reviews & releases, so eh :>

[player1]

Indeed it would (my bad). Maybe once Plague Bringer and + OPTIMUS + find their way here, a moderator will be kind enough to move it to Mods or GD. If a mod doesn't have the time, I'll do it once the wayward prodigals have found us.

Moved - though the board name doesn't seem to fit the content of this thread, the contents of the board aren't limited to reviews & releases, so eh :>

@Rocinante: Actually, before your tenure here the board name was made more specific in an attempt to quash these sorts of end-user pie-in-the-sky discussions, but thanks for moving it and not locking it. Besides, with a server op and code-type guy here with us, it's almost like we have a hall pass.

@==Troy==: Well, I've seen your to-do list, but looking over the general list of ideas, do you think it would be worth trying out some of these ideas as a mod for a specific server, where the admins could modify maps in a pregame layout period (or they could have a library of previously made layouts in rotation, hopefully randomized)? Plague Bringer's "third team" would be the ops and admins who run the servers. Of course, there would be all kinds of complaints about favoritism and cheating, but maybe one or two servers could survive, offering this option. This would be really fun for admins as well as players, and give them an outlet for their darker energies, while they try to be cops and role models.

@Plague Bringer: Have I succeeded in completely ruining your idea yet? j/k Would something along these lines be amenable to your intent?

All you need to begin with is a crate that can be pushed around, and exploding barrel, and a mole that follows you around creepily.

(Shh, we are saving that for the SP version, Tremulous: The Dungeoning.)

No, but seriously, this is an ace idea, you could basically build up a library of entities to use while mapping.

Someone sure could, plus I think it would be cool to have some of the other items available at layout.

Itd be like my obsession with collecting shit maps, only have about 4 non-standard shit maps, I dont release too many maps nowadays.

Well, right there you have 4 maps to mess around with, adding robot factories and exploding barrels; mole trails and pushable, destructible crates. Maybe they'd make better objective maps than AvH maps. What maps are they?

Just in case anyone wants to say the name is kind of, um, ghey-uh: Gaia Hypothesis (see the part about non-living entities being part of an organic whole)

[Plague Bringer]

Ahahaha! I saw Gaia: in the thread title, and I'm ecstatic to be recognized for one of my ideas! Thanks for the boost, Player One!

I thought of Gaia as being a third team whose build-ables would be placeable in !layout, or perhaps even GTKRadiant.

Gaia is the mapper's way of having nearly any object in their map that can be destroyed.

Gaia could have a range of build-ables that could be worked into maps.

Here's some ideas I've thought of and that others have presented to me:

-A factory that spawns NPC sentinels to roam the map.
-Barrels and boxes.
-Bridges.
-Turrets or defenses that attack one or both teams.

All of these things would be destructible. Whether it be just for eye-candy (boxes or barrels that explode when shot) or something that can alter game-play (a high HP sentinel factory that requires the co-operation of both teams to destroy), it can be implemented as a build-able with the use of a third team, Gaia.

-Now that I think of it, the automated defenses and the sentry factory would go excellently together, no? The old idea of the Sentry Factory could easily become real, now. We have the AI, we have the ideas, now all we need is a third team, some models, and a shit-load of testing.

-Oh, and the idea of the name Gaia came from my days of Age of Empires map editing. The name of the NPC team, which ranged anywhere from destroyable trees, rocks, and fortresses, to NPC sentries that attacked anything that moved. Gaia, meaning land, or earth. Hell, you could go as far as to say "nature". Something that cannot be controlled.

-@Rocinante: Think of it as a.. pre-review. It'll probably happen, we're just ironing out the creases.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

it would be nice of them to provide the gate openinga on the maps (like uncreation or UTCS, etc.) what otherwise belongs to stage issues.

[Plague Bringer]

Destroyable doors and walls? The only problem with that is sizes. It'd be impossible to set them down in GTKRadiant due to the fact that you need to place build-ables off the ground, and you'd need an amazing amount of models for each door in Tremulous.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

nono, just some actions done to the "environmental player" could trigger the doors. eer.. unlocks them, such as stages did.

[player1]

I like this list:

-A factory that spawns NPC sentinels to roam the map.
-Barrels and boxes.
-Bridges.
-Turrets or defenses that attack one or both teams.

Again, I'm not sure about the concept of a third team. Maybe a "guild" of Layout Modifying Dungeon Masters certified in the Arts of Destructible Placement? Wouldn't the changes have to happen before the match? It would be cool if they happened during the match, but I think it could be hard to be impartial once the game has started.

Also, I don't know if you've noticed PB, but you've had a couple of replies from people who have access to servers, and like to code and map. Could be beneficial.

[Rocinante]

@Rocinante: Actually, before your tenure here the board name was made more specific in an attempt to quash these sorts of end-user pie-in-the-sky discussions, but thanks for moving it and not locking it. Besides, with a server op and code-type guy here with us, it's almost like we have a hall pass.

Not a problem - it's a good discussion, locking it would be detrimental to the community :>

-@Rocinante: Think of it as a.. pre-review. It'll probably happen, we're just ironing out the creases.

I hope so, it sounds like a neat idea.  I dunno about anything official, but definitely a mod that could be fun to play (and could add fun for empty servers as well, give a reason to turn off team balance now and then - especially the "NPC factory" bit)

[whitebear]

Great job player1! I applaud you for taking initiative on this project and becoming "organizer". +5
But it seems most important part of the team will be modeler. I can only remember the fella who was working on "open sky" and risujin who made his own models.

[Death On Ice]

Just a small point: Turrets would be very unfair.

Humans can take them out easily from range, and if they're too long ranged to counter this, Aliens are screwed when they get near the turrets.

It would work out something like this:
     -     -    -   -     -     -    -    -    -   -       -     -   
wewt on what may have been my first use of the Tremulous-specific smileys

[whitebear]

You worry too much about balance at times like these. They most likely end up becoming mgdev style turrets anyway. And would mapper use turrets in a way they harm balance?

If you start barking about balance now it won't be productive in anyway.

[==Troy==]

I may give it a try. Not as of admins being the controllers (remember my idea about controllable turrets anyone? ) But a try to create something dumber than Amine's trembot and a "non-client" but still moving entities.

Placeable by a mapper, who can give waypoints + range in which the robot can move around them. Rather an eye-candy than a serious threat I say. (an abandoned robot factory with some machines still left on)

[whitebear]

I think small part of this fun would be the fact that ex. Machine more dangerous that tyrant that would attack any living thing would create "black spot" in map where no player dares to come just because they don't it to find their base. ^^

[Plague Bringer]

The only reason I suggested a third team was so that you could have a limitless amount of build-ables set to that team. I'm sure it would be possible to have build-ables that aren't set to any team placeable in /layout, though.

@whitebear - That's a good idea, a Sentinel factory could be placed in a useful choke point, and need to be destroyed before that choke point can be utilized effectively by either team.

[whitebear]

But of course! Since it was my idea. ^^

[==Troy==]

if you are interested.. I made a MG turret that shoots anyone  and is placeable via GTKRad.

[whitebear]

*drools* Who wouldn't be interested?

[techhead]

Laser turrets with slow turn speed, but long range.
That way, alien are handicapped by their range, but Humans are handicapped by their mobility.
An armor-piercing sniper turret might also work out, as Humans would then not have the benefit of their superior armor.

[player1]

Great job player1! I applaud you for taking initiative on this project and becoming "organizer". +5
But it seems most important part of the team will be modeler. I can only remember the fella who was working on "open sky" and risujin who made his own models.

*blushes* Just trying to be useful once in a while. Speaking of modelers, I thought you dabbled a bit in that dark art. And where has Risujin gone, anyway? Just how hard is it to get started in Q3 modeling? What would one need, at a minimum? Blender & GTK Radiant?

Before I respond to all of your posts, I just want to say take a look at this idea.

OK, here we go:

I may give it a try. Not as of admins being the controllers (remember my idea about controllable turrets anyone? ) But a try to create something dumber than Amine's trembot and a "non-client" but still moving entities.

Placeable by a mapper, who can give waypoints + range in which the robot can move around them. Rather an eye-candy than a serious threat I say. (an abandoned robot factory with some machines still left on)

We like it. Please continue...

I think small part of this fun would be the fact that ex. Machine more dangerous that tyrant that would attack any living thing would create "black spot" in map where no player dares to come just because they don't it to find their base. ^^

Love that idea...

The only reason I suggested a third team was so that you could have a limitless amount of build-ables set to that team. I'm sure it would be possible to have build-ables that aren't set to any team placeable in /layout, though.

@whitebear - That's a good idea, a Sentinel factory could be placed in a useful choke point, and need to be destroyed before that choke point can be utilized effectively by either team.

*nods* Yes, I see...

if you are interested.. I made a MG turret that shoots anyone  and is placeable via GTKRad.

*drools* Who wouldn't be interested?

*rubs hands together* Go on...

Laser turrets with slow turn speed, but long range.
That way, alien are handicapped by their range, but Humans are handicapped by their mobility.
An armor-piercing sniper turret might also work out, as Humans would then not have the benefit of their superior armor.

<3

Let me know what you all think of the idea of industrial waste as a result of Research, the Robot Factory, or as !layout items: box, crate, barrel.

Cheers!

[whitebear]

I've never been good at modeling if you don't count real life clay. Honestly... You don't want me to even try. *grins*
The reason I stopped trying was because I lacked effort to find working export script for blender and no idea how to get the unwrap thingy. Now I don't even have blender on my comp... And I should be working learning mySql and php.


Edit: Risujin is working with MGdev as far as I know (seen his name in patch log).

[player1]

@whitebear: kewl thx lol

[mooseberry]

I can't wait to see some concept art for this, I'm not much of an artist in terms of drawing, except for cartoon styles,  but I could try to do some 3d modeling work on this. I know I haven't shown any work here but it's all under "top secret-ness" I'm not "great" but I think I could do some good work on this once I see some drawings. I don't use blender (I hate it and think think that the control scheme is terrible) but I use a program (AC3D, .ac) that has a built in import in blender, so I can just import it for tremulous.