Planned Development Games

[Nux]

I'd like to point out that though Sayeru may sound like a noob (bad english Say <3) he most definately is not. He is concerned that the lagged community isn't being catered for and sadly it seems as though this is in fact the case.

'Lagged' gameplay has a lot more focus on prediction and dodging than unlagged gameplay does. I'll explain with handy dandy bulletpoints:

• With Unlagged, shots must be fired where the target was to hit (though on the dev server I think you shoot where they are)
• Without Unlagged, you must shoot where they will be. Hence prediction.
• Without Unlagged, you know that if an alien hits you from a max of x distance then all aliens can only hit from as far as x. This allows you to position yourself tactically relative to the enemy.
• With Unlagged, the distance you can get hit at is based entirely off the individual enemies ping. With a range of enemy pings, it's no longer possible to tactically position yourself like you can without unlagged.

Please note that when I say 'distance' I mean from your personal point of view as the artful dodger.

In my experience, unlagged gameplay is a lot more 'hit and run' than lagged. I believe that Sayerus problem with the new dodge is it works well with the flash-fights of unlagged but disrupts the longer sparring sessions of lagged.

I <3 lagged gameplay. Please don't forget it. :[

[Meisseli]

So you're saying, because you two who don't like dodge(Or running backwards? What the heck?) why not?
You're also saying that they should make it so each server can drastically change gameplay?
Now, Correct me if I'm wrong, But from my experiences, unlagged is what the majority of trem players use(With the exception of you euros, I dunno about y'all) and therefore, the 1.2 dodge is extremely useful. I don't really play lagged, so I dont know how well strafing works there, but I don't see why you can't allow people to use dodge?

And as for the newbie aspect, 9/10 new players I'm pretty sure have never played a similar game, so really, you're also asking to cater the game more towards the hardcore croud, and making it even less popular.

You guys aren'y making much sense.
Also, I haven't seen anyone else who says that either, but I have heard many who <3 the new dodge.

[/rant]

!cvarfilter g_unlagged == 0
True: 67 servers

!cvarfilter g_unlagged >= 1
True: 56 servers

And that does not count the ones with no g_unlagged cvar at all (really old servers)

And I'm not banning you from using dodge. How does a game without dodge make trem less popular?

And yes each server can drastically change gameplay. Play with 999BP. Play with instabuild. Play with free evos. Play with SD 1 minute. Play with stage 1 only. Really how's that not drastic what people can already do?

[David]

Because it's obvious, and it effects tactics, not skill.
The skills I learn on one server (movement, dodging, aiming etc) have to be transferable to all servers or very obviously marked, otherwise no new players will be able to improve at the game without going through the forums etc.

Moving hidden goalposts is IMO a sure fire way to make a game not-fun.  Just because we can see the posts doesn't mean that the other 99% of people can.  This is the same reason why I think unlagged should either be forced on, or have a BIG thing explaining exactly what it is and be listed on the server browser etc.

[Meisseli]

Because it's obvious, and it effects tactics, not skill.
The skills I learn on one server (movement, dodging, aiming etc) have to be transferable to all servers or very obviously marked, otherwise no new players will be able to improve at the game without going through the forums etc.

Moving hidden goalposts is IMO a sure fire way to make a game not-fun.  Just because we can see the posts doesn't mean that the other 99% of people can.  This is the same reason why I think unlagged should either be forced on, or have a BIG thing explaining exactly what it is and be listed on the server browser etc.

The problem is: the new dodge might be useful in unlagged but it sure is not in lagged. A lot of players do play lagged, and I'm fine with Tremulous being balanced for unlagged, but making such a change for the unlagged problem only - is not good at all.

• Without Unlagged, you know that if an alien hits you from a max of x distance then all aliens can only hit from as far as x. This allows you to position yourself tactically relative to the enemy.
• With Unlagged, the distance you can get hit at is based entirely off the individual enemies ping. With a range of enemy pings, it's no longer possible to tactically position yourself like you can without unlagged.

This is the ultimate truth here. You can actually see where the alien is aiming with lagged instead of it chomping you with his ass. I don't like these kind of major changes being done to the unlagged community only.

[Archangel]

your arguments are invalid. 1.2's unlagged includes client side compensation as well. no more ass bites.

[Norfenstein]

And yes each server can drastically change gameplay. Play with 999BP. Play with instabuild. Play with free evos. Play with SD 1 minute. Play with stage 1 only. Really how's that not drastic what people can already do?

Follow your thought: should we make every aspect of the gameplay that anyone takes issue with a server setting? Half the things you mentioned aren't possible without mods. If servers want to remove a feature they already have the means to do so.

He is concerned that the lagged community isn't being catered for and sadly it seems as though this is in fact the case.

No one is being "catered for". We set unlagged on the development servers because otherwise it would be unplayable for enough of the players that regularly showed up for games. Playing games with us -- even if you don't feel like the conditions are perfect -- is and always will be the best way to influence Trem's direction.

When we release the beta we will have several official servers that the client will sticky at the top of the server browser. Probably half of them will have unlagged on and half of them will have it off. The beta period is when we will generate enough statistics to make sure the game is properly balanced, and it's not going to be done exclusively with unlagged. And I promise I'll play on lagged servers as much as I can.

In europe we doesnt need any dodge to avoid ennemy attacks.

Not to single you out in particular on this Sayeru, but can we please knock off the "us versus you" crap? Where you're from or who you are really has absolutely nothing to do with the way you play the game. Which servers you frequent might, and so saying "euro players" might be a shorthand, but I think the distinction is worth making if you're interested in having a productive discussion.

So we have a beta now ?

It's up to Timbo and benmachine now I think. Timbo has to merge the last changes in MGDev with mainline Tremulous (nothing big, so it shouldn't be long) and benmachine said he had a few more bugs he wanted to fix before the release (blame me for thinking we were all clear after the slowness bug, but I don't think he'll take very long anyway).

[Nux]

No one is being "catered for". We set unlagged on the development servers because otherwise it would be unplayable for enough of the players that regularly showed up for games. Playing games with us -- even if you don't feel like the conditions are perfect -- is and always will be the best way to influence Trem's direction.

When we release the beta we will have several official servers that the client will sticky at the top of the server browser. Probably half of them will have unlagged on and half of them will have it off. The beta period is when we will generate enough statistics to make sure the game is properly balanced, and it's not going to be done exclusively with unlagged. And I promise I'll play on lagged servers as much as I can.

Thanks for the reassurance. :]

Also I'd like to see friendly fire tested in the development. I know you personally don't like it norf but there are many who prefer it on.

Edit: I just tried to confirm that ff was still off (not sure what ff 4/ ff 7 means in serverstatus.. final fantasy humour?) and I couldn't connect twice (to shoot myself) because the guid was already in use. The neat part is it tells the connected one that his guid isn't secure.

[David]

ff is a bitfield, but I have no idea what the different bits mean :s

[Meisseli]

your arguments are invalid. 1.2's unlagged includes client side compensation as well. no more ass bites.

That makes my argument more valid. I assume that means in 1.2 unlagged you can dodge too without the new "ninja move", when you can see where the goon is actually aiming at.

Follow your thought: should we make every aspect of the gameplay that anyone takes issue with a server setting? Half the things you mentioned aren't possible without mods. If servers want to remove a feature they already have the means to do so.

When we release the beta we will have several official servers that the client will sticky at the top of the server browser. Probably half of them will have unlagged on and half of them will have it off. The beta period is when we will generate enough statistics to make sure the game is properly balanced, and it's not going to be done exclusively with unlagged. And I promise I'll play on lagged servers as much as I can.

All the things I said are possible without mods.

But that's not the point. I'm just concerned that this dodge change seems to be made for unlagged only, to solve their problem. It's not helping the other ones at all, making it unnecessarily complex, Unreal Tournament, not fun, not challenging. You can already dodge so well without. The new dodge is for an Instagib game.

Agreed that the compromise server-side cvar sucks, I'd rather have the dodge completely cut out

Glad to hear of the bolded text.

[David]

And yes each server can drastically change gameplay. Play with 999BP. Play with instabuild. Play with free evos. Play with SD 1 minute. Play with stage 1 only. Really how's that not drastic what people can already do?

All the things I said are possible without mods.

How do you do instabuild, stage 1 only, and free evos without a mod?

[Meisseli]

And yes each server can drastically change gameplay. Play with 999BP. Play with instabuild. Play with free evos. Play with SD 1 minute. Play with stage 1 only. Really how's that not drastic what people can already do?

All the things I said are possible without mods.

How do you do instabuild, stage 1 only, and free evos without a mod?

g_instantbuild 1
mess up with g_stagethresholds
devmap and /give funds 2000

[David]

g_instantbuild is a mod.
g_stagethresholds is a mod.
dev map is by definition not standard gameplay.

Don't you think the fact that you don't even know what tremulous is means it's gone too far?

[Meisseli]

g_instantbuild is a mod.
g_stagethresholds is a mod.
dev map is by definition not standard gameplay.

Don't you think the fact that you don't even know what tremulous is means it's gone too far?

g_humanStage2Threshold is even in the wiki, doubt it's a mod. It's just a cvar.
If not g_instantbuild just use that /devmap then.
999BP is by definition not standard gameplay. You can still put it on with server-side cvars.

And this is completely off topic

[David]

I was looking for a g_stagethresholds cvar >_>

And devmap doesn't have insta-build without a mod.

[Norfenstein]

All the things I said are possible without mods.

I wasn't counting servers with cheats turned on. Are there servers with cheats turned on?

I'm just concerned that this dodge change seems to be made for unlagged only, to solve their problem. It's not helping the other ones at all, making it unnecessarily complex, Unreal Tournament, not fun, not challenging. You can already dodge so well without. The new dodge is for an Instagib game.

This is a difference of opinion. I did not want dodge added to solve any particular problem; I wanted it added because I think it does make the game more fun. Unlagged had zero to do with it. And I really believe this controversy is blown wildly out of proportion. My experience has been: unlagged marginally favors attackers, lagged marginally favors evaders. Maybe after seeing the beta stats and playing without unlagged a lot I'll feel it's appropriate to modify some numbers here and there, but I guarantee it's not going to make we want to remove or add major gameplay features.

Also I'd like to see friendly fire tested in the development. I know you personally don't like it norf but there are many who prefer it on.

Yea, friendly fire is probably the second most controversial server setting. The thing is I'm not sure it's actually possible to properly balance the game for it being either on or off, and I do think balancing for it off is the better way to go. I could be persuaded. The dev servers have it off for players but on for structures.

Sudden death is probably the third most controversial server setting, but we're not going to be balancing for that. I consider a sudden death game to be a tie game, since sudden death was never meant to be anything other than a more satisfactory way to end a long game than just abruptly stopping at the time limit.

[Winnie the Pooh]

Yea, friendly fire is probably the second most controversial server setting. The thing is I'm not sure it's actually possible to properly balance the game for it being either on or off, and I do think balancing for it off is the better way to go. I could be persuaded. The dev servers have it off for players but on for structures.

A possible solution would be to halve any damage taken by entities of the same team.

[Meisseli]

This is a difference of opinion. I did not want dodge added to solve any particular problem; I wanted it added because I think it does make the game more fun. Unlagged had zero to do with it. And I really believe this controversy is blown wildly out of proportion. My experience has been: unlagged marginally favors attackers, lagged marginally favors evaders. Maybe after seeing the beta stats and playing without unlagged a lot I'll feel it's appropriate to modify some numbers here and there, but I guarantee it's not going to make we want to remove or add major gameplay features.

Yeah. And in others' opinion it's destroying the fun. Though I wouldn't use the word marginally. Lagged favours dodging, unlagged favours crouching or just dying for others to finish.

And all friendly fire should be on please Realism and a lot less luci/pulse/etc spam. Halving the damage is not good IMO.

[AppleJuice]

Yeah. And in others' opinion it's destroying the fun. Though I wouldn't use the word marginally. Lagged favours dodging, unlagged favours crouching or just dying for others to finish.

And all friendly fire should be on please Realism and a lot less luci/pulse/etc spam. Halving the damage is not good IMO.

Ok, that's enough. Please stop speaking for unlagged when you obviously cannot play it very well. Unlagged does NOT favour crouching at all - in fact, most crouchers are killed very easily. It is completely possible to dodge in unlagged (effectively) - just stop using the same dodges you use in lagged! Be creative! You also DO need to use prediction in unlagged - against good dodgers, that is. That's all I'll say about that, since this has been debated many times. I'm just tired of some people who obviously can't play unlagged very well making general statements about it.

About the features: unfortunately, I also don't like the new dodge feature so far, but I'm willing to try it for some time longer, since I haven't really thought of all its applications. I think movement was fine in 1.1 - it didn't need this much tweaking. However, I don't think even 20 games is enough to make a final judgment on it, so that's all I'll say about that.

HOWEVER, I really think the dragoon's pounce is very overpowered, as it is now. 3 pounces to kill an s2 human with that much knockback -- too strong. I rarely chomp anymore because of this (though if I can chomp, I do, since that's faster). In 1.1, a great s2 human had a pretty decent chance of killing a good dragoon; in 1.2, an s2 human has a pretty small chance of killing one (by himself). Although I understand that this change might have been made in the interest of fostering teamplay, I still have one gripe: in 1.1, it was possible to have both good teamplay and good solo-play (as humans); in 1.2, it's harder to have good solo play, at least for s2 humans against good pouncers. I suppose this is where the new dodge comes into play; like I said, I'd have to play 1.2 more in order to make a better judgment, but these are my initial impressions.

I also don't see the point in making the tyrant's charge that strong while making it much harder to slash, but I guess if more people than not find that change enjoyable, I can't complain.

[Nux]

Ok, that's enough. Please stop speaking for unlagged when you obviously cannot play it very well. Unlagged does NOT favour crouching at all - in fact, most crouchers are killed very easily. It is completely possible to dodge in unlagged (effectively) - just stop using the same dodges you use in lagged! Be creative! You also DO need to use prediction in unlagged - against good dodgers, that is. That's all I'll say about that, since this has been debated many times. I'm just tired of some people who obviously can't play unlagged very well making general statements about it.

*putting his hand up* I can quite confidently say I can play very well with and without unlagged. That isn't to say playing well gives you a perfect understanding of the situation. Most of the fast reactions are habitual and subconscious afterall. That said, using more of your twitch reflex gives the rest of your brain more of a chance to analyse the situation.

When I first started playing on US unlagged servers it felt like I was aiming directly at the enemy. It's only now that it's become so automatic that I can actually watch myself aim where the target WAS, rather than where it is. If you've only ever played on unlagged you might not even know you're doing this. So 'lagged' does require a lot more immediate prediction with aiming as you have to fire your shots where the target will be next (lag dependant).

Other kinds of prediction occur with and without unlagged. For example, if ever I'm about to enter a group of enemies, I automatically start making plans (usually for the next second or two) on how best to control/kill the enemy. This will usually involve either making a route to the next few kills or else baiting the group in a direction which makes them more vulnerable to attack (either for me or my team). Note that these 'plans' are merely habits that work and use very little higher brain function. I'll also add that these bursts of plan-making are very enjoyable when they succeed.

When it comes to dodging, I will admit that I think my dodge may have improved thanks to playing with unlagged, mainly because I've had to start making plans earlier than before. Still, the ability to dodge reliably in lagged makes plan-making more interesting and I believe this enables much more aggressive gameplay on the whole than unlagged allows.

[Norfenstein]

Yea, friendly fire is probably the second most controversial server setting. The thing is I'm not sure it's actually possible to properly balance the game for it being either on or off, and I do think balancing for it off is the better way to go. I could be persuaded. The dev servers have it off for players but on for structures.

A possible solution would be to halve any damage taken by entities of the same team.

What is that a solution to exactly?

EDIT: Oh, you mean balance for the midway point. Hmm...

[Meisseli]

Ok, that's enough. Please stop speaking for unlagged when you obviously cannot play it very well. Unlagged does NOT favour crouching at all - in fact, most crouchers are killed very easily. It is completely possible to dodge in unlagged (effectively) - just stop using the same dodges you use in lagged! Be creative! You also DO need to use prediction in unlagged - against good dodgers, that is. That's all I'll say about that, since this has been debated many times. I'm just tired of some people who obviously can't play unlagged very well making general statements about it.

Might be true what you say to some extent, but I've seen so many US scrims where people do not even bother dodging at all. They just crouch and stand where they are Anyways - what Nux said is true. Dodging is not reliable at all in unlagged at least. Unless you're supercool and can count the exact milliseconds the goon's range increases.

Or then run backwards

[A Spork]

Might be true what you say to some extent, but I've seen so many US scrims where people do not even bother dodging at all. They just crouch and stand where they are Anyways - what Nux said is true. Dodging is not reliable at all in unlagged at least. Unless you're supercool and can count the exact milliseconds the goon's range increases.

Or then run backwards

Ok, exactly how many scrims have you watched? Cuz in my Experiences, its usually Humans get into a formation, crouching, and when the goon(s) attack they surround/dodge and basically swarm them. If they just crouch they get owned. Horribly.
And I've found Dodge Quite helpful and reliable.

And what is you have against people running away from a fight they know they cant win? When I do that its like the old saying: "He Who Fights and runs away, Lives to Fight another day." Usually, cuz I don't want to give the aliens a new stage or I'm low on creds, and cant afford to die.

[Winnie the Pooh]

I believe that when you are a good enough player, Unlagged or lagged servers make hardly any difference in how you play the game. Movement is key to humans for staying alive. Only fools would crouch in battles. People think that Dragoon pounces will go right over them but it is not so. The range is not that short. Plus, you have a better chance of dodging out of the way than of staying still.

[Cadynum]

I believe that when you are a good enough player, Unlagged or lagged servers make hardly any difference in how you play the game. Movement is key to humans for staying alive. Only fools would crouch in battles. People think that Dragoon pounces will go right over them but it is not so. The range is not that short. Plus, you have a better chance of dodging out of the way than of staying still.

I think you're wrong. A good player can adjust to whatever settings he or she is required to play with.
Crouching is by the way very useful in normal 1.1 against goon head chomps.
I haven't played that much with unlagged, but I've played enough to draw the conclusion that I prefer it to be off.
Addition: The first sentence was for the "unlagged is noob"-crowd.

[Winnie the Pooh]

I believe that when you are a good enough player, Unlagged or lagged servers make hardly any difference in how you play the game.

A good player can adjust to whatever settings he or she is required to play with.

SAME THING? Geez.

[Cadynum]

I believe that when you are a good enough player, Unlagged or lagged servers make hardly any difference in how you play the game.

A good player can adjust to whatever settings he or she is required to play with.

SAME THING? Geez.

I read a lot of posts and somewhat responded to them while quoting you. That's why i added the last line :)

[Winnie the Pooh]

=D

[UniqPhoeniX]

If you crouch/stand still in unlagged against my +goon, expect to be sniped. And crouching helm+armor + barb = dead human. Dodging does make a difference in unlagged.

[temple]

We've had discussions about Unlagged before.  I don't even care anymore.  Either you can play or you can't. Blaming it on the technical details is just making excuses. 

I don't think Dodge adds anything.  Its just a new button to make noobs feel like they are doing something special.

Crouching isn't all that.  I've been killing crouching humans with all kinds of aliens lately.  Crouching is more of a trick and once people catch on it, it doesn't work anymore. 

But as for sprinting, sprinting backwards was, is, and will always be lame as hell.  It doesn't make sense and contributes to cheap victories.

But on my final note, cause this hurts me personally, the whole repeaters providing their bp is just so good but so wrong at the same time.  For any good strategic game, there has be to a conseqence for gaining or losing ground.  This works well for humans with the repeater+bp idea.  But what about aliens? 

Let both species build something outside their base.  Give it limited bp.  BUT allow it to confer some advantage to the side that makes it. It can generate credits or evos, it could heal, it could contribute to stage advancement, take your pick.  But make a consequence for losing ground.  Just giving humans repeater and bp just going to piss off hard working aliens.  Basilisks aren't enough and are a passive benefit.  Make the game have a strategic element in taking the map.  It would give the game a seek and destroy element with people making their limit structures all over the place and the other team trying to find it.

The whole repeater+bp just feels like a betrayal because the devs say no to everything.  I never thought the devs would consider mobile bases.  Also, I've been very vocal about how 1.2 isn't going to mean anything if camping remains viable in the game.  The slow bp regen is a good feature but an easy response would be to camp harder.  The mini base feature is great if it is backed up with a more tangible benefit for both sides.  But otherwise, its giving humans more positions to camp from rather than encourage them to move forward.  The problem isn't getting humans out of the base, its getting humans to attack alien bases. 

[Norfenstein]

Today's a US server game (starting at about... right now). There won't be any more changes for a while; Timbo is making good progress on merging the MGDev changes with trunk, but it could still be several weeks. I'm unfortunately somewhere where I can't play at the moment (or even get on IRC).