Unlagged - Yes or No

[Ingar]

In short:
you can control the fact that you have to lead your aim,
you can not control the fact that someone shoots you around the corner.

[David]

Have you ever been shot around a corner?
I only play on unlagged servers, and its only happened to me once.

Most of you refuse to play on unlagged servers, so I'm going to bet are just spreading FUD.

[Amanieu]

Being shot around a corner happen on lagged servers just as it happens on unlagged server, and as David said, only rarely occurs.

Since there is an obvious disagreement on whether unlagged should be used or not, at least add a column to the server browser that indicates whether a server has it enabled, disabled or limited to X milliseconds.

[kevlarman]

I only play on unlagged servers, and its only happened to me once.

and considering that you normally play with 150 ping, it's at least as likely to have been prediction as it was unlagged. (it's happened twice to me, and only one was unlagged, and i've been playing on only unlagged servers since i helped make it work on trem)

[Lava Croft]

Have you ever been shot around a corner?

I guess you must have some problem with your eyes.

Getting shot around the corner happens more often and the effect is much more visible in a Unlagged game. It happens in just about every Unlagged game I play or spectate, no matter how exotic this situation may be according to other people.

Yes, it also happens in normal games, but less often and the effect is barely noticeable.

While this may not annoy some people, it does annoy the hell out of others. The fact that you barely notice it or do not find it annoying does not mean others experience it the same. Other people do notice it, and do find it very annoying.

[St. Anger]

Have you ever been shot around a corner?

I guess you must have some problem with your eyes.

Getting shot around the corner happens more often and the effect is much more visible in a Unlagged game. It happens in just about every Unlagged game I play or spectate, no matter how exotic this situation may be according to other people.

Yes, it also happens in normal games, but less often and the effect is barely noticeable.

While this may not annoy some people, it does annoy the hell out of others. The fact that you barely notice it or do not find it annoying does not mean others experience it the same. Other people do notice it, and do find it very annoying.

In that case I must have a problem with my eyes as well, along with the majority of unlagged players. I've hardly ever seen anybody get shot from around a corner in my 1 year of playing unlagged in Tremulous.

[Dracone]

Getting shot after going around a corner is STILL a sign that unlagged is simply helping people who can't play with a high ping, which is one of its functions. If you get shot around a corner and you're pissed about it, don't complain and try to say that it's something that is a "problem" with unlagged that should be fixed because it can't be. It's fully ping related to the enemy who shot you. So blame it on ping and ping only, but not because of unlagged doing its job. I will agree, it does LOOK bad, but so doesn't an ugly high ping.

[cactusfrog]

i wish there was a enough normal servers so that everone could play on one and still have <100 ping then we wouldn't need unlagged but because that isn't the case we need unlagged. 

[Ingar]

Have you ever been shot around a corner?
I only play on unlagged servers, and its only happened to me once.

Most of you refuse to play on unlagged servers, so I'm going to bet are just spreading FUD.

FunZone runs unlagged, I usually die slightly after I see the enemy has missed me.
I play with a ping of around 15-20ms and sometimes I feel like a bullseye for higher pingers.

So it's not the actual 'beeing shot around the corner' it's more like beeing shot when you know
you aren't.

[Lava Croft]

You don't understand, Ingar. These people do not notice it, therefore you must be making it up. No matter what valid argument you might bring up against Unlagged, it will always be dismissed as a figment of your imagination, and an exaggerated one at that.

[Fukacz]

Unlagged sux.. it should be as a separate game, so Tremulous players would not join unlagged servers by accident...

[David]

You don't understand, Ingar. These people do not notice it, therefore you must be making it up. No matter what valid argument you might bring up against Unlagged, it will always be dismissed as a figment of your imagination, and an exaggerated one at that.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth.  I thought you didn't like that?
Where have I said its an exaggerated figment of your imagination?  Where have you been accused of lying?
I have no problems playing with unlagged, you do, so either we can try to work out why so we can fix it, or you can continue arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Eeeew Spiders]

sigh, two pages back we were so much further, and now it's back to this.
I sometimes feel that threads should be limited to 3 pages, cause after that, no one will read them all, and they will add the same statements again that were on page 1.
So the next 4 pages will contain a lot of meaningless gurgles piling up over the good written and well thought posts on the previous pages, making these good statements hard to find and the thread a waste.

[player1]

Then please summarize the good posts, or at least link us back to where you thought we went awry.

[Eeeew Spiders]

Then please summarize the good posts, or at least link us back to where you thought we went awry.

I think it was good until the very end of page 3.
Everything was explained then, nothing left out, both sides were understood,
All has been said, there is nothing to add really, except maybe some rhymes here and there.

My fav quote remains
this.

There's a quote that goes something along the lines of, it's not the answer, but it raises some interesting questions.

some random quotes (not quite random, as i am biased )

• In my personal opinion, if you don't want unlagged turned on, then don't turn it on.  But don't expect anyone who isn't on the same network to have a fun time playing there.
• There is no right or wrong in my opinion about Unlagged, but there is a preference.
  • The only preference here is: Do you prefer hitscan weapons (instant attacks) to hit instantly?  Regardless of latency, an instant attack should be instant.
• The bullet hits you because you were in plain view not because he was lagged.
• overlooking the fact that instead of giving a player control over how to compensate for his own latency, Unlagged removes that control from the player
• All Unlagged does is make near instant projectiles actually hit instantly.  If instant weapons do not function like this, then the netcode is broken.
• Unlagged innately does all the calculations necessary to compensate for latency differences.  That's the point of it. 
  • Unlagged is not a god given super solution to answer the problem of latency, it just handles packages differently.
• Lag is something that a great deal of effort was taken to remove.
  • Unlagged doesn't fix latency. It does not remove latency from the game, it shifts the latency around (from the high ping shooter to the target)
• The players' latency are independent of Unlagged. Where is latency moved?
• Unlagged checks attacks, not perception and decisions based on those observations. Examples: here and there
• Can you outrun a bullet?
  • Can you shoot me when I see you aiming in a total different direction?
  • [...]this is a matter of perspective. How events are perceived by that attacker and by the target is different.
  • With unlagged the game is not WYSIWYG, its not what you see. Its what the other high ping client saw.
• The guy isn't curving bullets around the corner.  You were in the open, he shot, but you didn't move fast enough.
• Neither of you are wrong, it's all based on your perspective.
• Well, if you get killed, know to expect that the attacker will turn and fire at you, because from his perspective he already has.
• My honest opinion is that unlagged is part of the solution. However, it is neither the only solution, nor a complete solution by itself.
  • 1.2 should fix this since its damagemodel is adjusted for unlagged.
  • just asking to keep both playstyles in mind when balancing.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

Why don'T you make some "test" about changing unlagged on servers without telling... or lieing about it?

let's say, Lava can turn on unlagged on Satgnu, and he can record all the rants, or to see if people realise that it is changed at all.
or some can write on american servers that its temporary playing lagged, but for real, it woud not. or reverse.

i think getting some proofs in game on servers what are the "cornerstones" of one side could be funny, and more convincing.

[Dracone]

There is NO "instant" whatsoever in unlagged. It is technically impossible to make things hit instantly unless your ping is 0, and nobody is going to get that happening for everyone in a server in Tremulous. I guess you really COULD say there is a sense of instant, because as soon as you shoot dead on at your target with a hitscan weapon with unlagged on, you instantly seal the deal that you will hit them, but that's for later when the shot actually connects. There is absolutely no actual instant-hit in Tremulous without 0 ping, and the same is true with ANYTHING over the internet, because it's simply impossible by our current tech.

[Lava Croft]

Tell that to temple, Dracone!

[Dracone]

Meh, honestly that was more of an "information for all" post. From what I've read from people, being uncomfortable with unlagged and having complaints to give about it comes from either not knowing how it works or simply disliking the fact that it does, in all truth, substitute certain things that are good about lagged with the unlagged versions. The best example is probably that unlagged does lack the skill of predicting WHEN to shoot. But it is wrong to say that it totally takes out prediction skills altogether, since you still have to predict WHERE to shoot. It's just that unlagged allows that to be more impulsive than thought out as can be seen often in lagged.

As for not knowing enough about it, that is understandable. Not everyone is into looking up the tech of unlagged and figuring out what it does. Hell, I only know as much as I do about it from experience and tidbits of tech info I've coincidentally come across. BUT, this does NOT give you the right to say ANYTHING bad about it except that you simply do not like playing with unlagged. So if you honestly do not know really anything about how it works, hold off with the attempts at intelligent complaints, and just put it the way you know it really is -- you just don't like it.

I'd say it just comes down to people needing to keep it simple. This thread's NAME is all you need to have for an opinion on unlagged. Do you like it or do you not? Stop fighting over it using stupid arguements about the tech because if you try to do that against unlagged, it's like saying, "I hate it for doing its job."

I doubt that it will stop but hey, the internet has become a tool for arguing among other things, so why not make this thread go to page 100?

[Eeeew Spiders]

it's like saying, "I hate it for doing its job."

I hate to be rolled back

As for not knowing enough about it, that is understandable. Not everyone is into looking up the tech of unlagged and figuring out what it does

Most people with sensitive posts on both sides of the argument seem to have a pretty clear understanding how Unlagged technically works.
The only point where people differ is the interpretation of side effects and whether or not those are good/bad/(un)significant.
The quoted unlagged faq is a pretty accurate description and not at all difficult to understand.

BUT, this does NOT give you the right to say ANYTHING bad about it except that you simply do not like playing with unlagged. So if you honestly do not know really anything about how it works, hold off with the attempts at intelligent complaints, and just put it the way you know it really is -- you just don't like it.

Quite wrong actually, in addition to saying that you don't like it, it is legit to add information about why you don't like it and what it is you don't like about it.

[rotacak]

I really don't know, what is fun on unlagged off if player does not have ping 0. Shooting in front enemy moving (distance depend on ping)? That is fun? I trying time to time play with unlagged off, SST for example, but when I have tyrant (ping about 200) and enemy is naked human, and I cant hit him, I can closely followed him but not hit (he running straight, I am closely after him, can't be closer because I already touching his ass, attacking and nothing happen) - that is stupid. He does not need attack me, he can bring only grenade, nade my base and then he can walk away and laugh in my tyrant face.
Weird is that on SST are often 80% players with similar ping like me, and they probably thinking that gameplay is normal.

No fun at all. (tyrant is for nothing, only marauder zap and adv goon barbs can do aomething. Humans weapons have delay, can't hit anything, even big tyrant ass, MD is totally useless, only luci do something or you can shoot to floor and hope that some dretch appear there)

Don't know how others, but want hit enemy and not compute where I probably can hit him and aim in his path (empty place), not exactly on him.

Another example - I think Wine Bar server. I joined humans, run in middle atcs and there was dretch that start followed me, in stright line. I shoot out whole rifle magazine exactly into dretch body, and dretch nothing! In reload time I was killed by him. They changed unlagged from ON to OFF. Unplayable.

Another example - Harves Unlimited server (there is very bad ping). ATCS, humans lose, in human base was 4 tyrants and one blaster man. Human survived 30 seconds in base and he only running around. They can't hit him.

I playing only on unlagged servers, because even with ping 50 on unlagged off its unfair. I cannot see any fun when I biting/shooting someone but nothing happen, nobody is hurt, dretch headshot never happen, only when human stand on one place 10 seconds.

With unlagged is practically impossible like human avoid dragon pounce, but I can live with that, because I know - when I shoot at that dragoon, he will be hit, regardless to my ping, his ping, someone else ping or whatever.

That is my opinion and presence my bad english. I hope I can sometime understand how much fun gain playes with ping 200 on unlagged off servers with 1 kill after 30 minutes gameplay.

[Archangel]

Face it, lagged WILL make your aim better. But, there's people who either live somewhere where they can only get dialup, or wireless broadband (same as regular broadband, just more expensive and +200ms ping usually. ). There's also people like me, who have wrist problems, and can't move as freely as you ''lagged stars'' (or however you shall put it). Unlagged is a vital part of tying the seperate communities of this game together instead of having them sit on servers where they are -- hell, they might live somewhere and have absolutely no servers nearby -- the lowest pinging server being 150, or even more! Think about that. Having unlagged as a choice makes this game much more diverse.

[rotacak]

Archangel: how it make my aim better? Like aimbot? No, unlagged off make my "aim" worst. And it is not AIM, its HIT. I can have aimbot with unlagged off, that mean 100% right aim, and I will hit nothing.

Its not about aiming. I can perfectly aim with unlagged, and all is ok. I can perfectly aim with unlagged off, and cant hit anything. So when I shoot and hit what I see (what I aiming), that mean - unlagged helping me with aim? How I can better aim when already aiming at enemy body? If you mean that predicting enemy move, then you have right, but that is not game, but madness.

Or unlagged make my hit better when everybody will have ping 0?

[Dracone]

1. He means that that having to predict makes you better at aiming in general.
2. Aimbots do not have 100% accuracy. In fact, there are players who aim better than aimbots, like Snake and Effect. But aimbots for Trem are actually very shitty, and an absolute waste of time to get, since they have something closer to only 60% accuracy.
3. If you can barely speak ANY proper English then you should be much more careful in reading posts made in the language.

[rotacak]

If predicting means better aiming, then ok. But that is not for me. I want shoot what I see... And if I want to predict, then I buy luci :-) And I don't know what aimbots you saw, but they are 100% accurate - atleast that stupid aimbots what are easily discovered.

[khalsa]

Unlagged - Yes.



Khalsa

[Archangel]

Archangel: how it make my aim better? Like aimbot? No, unlagged off make my "aim" worst. And it is not AIM, its HIT. I can have aimbot with unlagged off, that mean 100% right aim, and I will hit nothing.

Its not about aiming. I can perfectly aim with unlagged, and all is ok. I can perfectly aim with unlagged off, and cant hit anything. So when I shoot and hit what I see (what I aiming), that mean - unlagged helping me with aim? How I can better aim when already aiming at enemy body? If you mean that predicting enemy move, then you have right, but that is not game, but madness.

Or unlagged make my hit better when everybody will have ping 0?

I said lagged makes your aim better.

[rotacak]

I said lagged makes your aim better.

Hmm, that is probably reason why I have on unlagged off servers 0 kills 

[Eeeew Spiders]

I said lagged makes your aim better.

Hmm, that is probably reason why I have on unlagged off servers 0 kills 

He said, if you learn to kill plenty with Unlagged off, you will kill even more with Unlaged on

[+ OPTIMUS +]

there is one think that i totally don't understand.

i played months with unlagged on USA servers because i didn't know what PING is for.
then i went to eu servers, realising that what i've done was totally unplayable.

so...

if your ping is so bad that it needs unlagged to treat with it, your game experience is so miseraby awful, that it doesn't even worth to play, because you are basically watching a power point presentation of the buttons you pressed a long time before.

considering this, i think of...:

whining about unlagged is "unfair" because high ping players own you like hell is totally irrevelant, because they already have a huge disadvantage. maybe they can shoot you(assuming that they can shoot something that they don't even know where it is/was), but their dodge ability, what is probably the most important factor in Tremulous is desperately decreased.
so pointing on someone who aims "cool" when its obvious that he receives less data of your position seems to be nonsense.
if this thread is for the better understanding of unlagged, let someone tell me what is the exact ping difference when unlagged is becoming necessary. because 20-100 ping is naturally playable. from like 130, it's getting really annoying, and from 160, it's not worthing the waste of the bandwith. ofc its my subjective experience...

bold question is the most interesting i think...