Author Topic: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.  (Read 115760 times)

khalsa

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Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« on: December 10, 2008, 12:43:18 am »
Howdy,

Tremulous is getting a wiki for docs, newbies guides, how to's, manuals, etc. etc.

I am not a "wiki person".

I need someone who is well versed in mediawiki usage and administration, who has a verifiable history as such. (link to your medium-large wiki, or a long wikipedia edit history) To help out and get things running.

I'm also looking for suggestions as to what hierarchy for organization the wiki should follow. If you (all of you lamers) could put up what you think would be a good method of organization (e.g. a hierarchy for the mainpage) I will strongly consider them.

The more responses, and the more volunteers, the faster we launch and the faster things happen  :)


Khalsa
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 01:08:42 am by khalsa »
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Knowitall66

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2008, 02:00:16 am »
Well for the Wiki something like this should be alright; http://tf2wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page
As for the arrangement something along the lines of this maybe; http://tremulous.pastebin.com/m167328b

Paradox

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2008, 06:16:17 am »
Khalsa, I am experienced with Wikis, as can be seen by my personal wiki.

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Kaleo

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2008, 07:26:56 am »
Is this wiki going to contain lore etc. or just information on Tremulous?
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Urcscumug

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2008, 12:16:38 pm »
Yeah, I think the very first step for a wiki is to outline what will and what will not be on it. This gives the would-be maintainer an idea of how to start organizing content and what kind of content it will be. It will also need to answer questions such as:

* Will it need categories?
* Images: Will it need to be able to post images? Will anybody be able to post images or just select users? In which manner will images be posted/stored?
* Likewise with HTML.
* What pages should be locked? In my experience, at the very least the homepage should be, because it is _the_ single wiki page that seems to absolutely fascinate idiots into "defacing" it in various ways.

From the technical point of view, wiki engines are pretty similar nowadays, but there are some differences; in syntax, obviously, and in features they support.

I recommend that a wiki be chosen that offers at least the following features:
* User accounts.
* Selective page locking.
* If possible, allow only some users to edit certain pages.
* Page caching (you don't want every page to be dinamically generated all the time).
* Automatic generation of content indexes for every page; ie. you edit a page, you create headings, and the engine auto-generates a list of links to each section at start of page.
* Some way to organize similar pages hierarchically ie. categories in wiki-speak.
* A sane revision browsing, with user-friendly display of differences between revisions.
* Anti-spambot protection!
* A sane past revision retention policy, which ensures that nobody can erase content, or push it so far back on the revision history by malicious edits that it becomes unavailable.
* IP blocks.

I believe MediaWiki has all of the above.

There is also the issue of policy as to who can edit what. Like I said, I strongly recommend the homepage to be locked from any but select users. And I can imagine that certain pages or sections such as, say, the one for a certain mod may allow editing only from that mod's team.

Then again, by locking people away you lose the greates part of a wiki's potential (homepage doesn't count). Personally, I am put off by wikis that require login. Anonymous editing is the way to go if you want to make sure you don't lose any contribution. But it requires an editor that makes the rounds daily and reverts spam and malicious edits. If the engine makes it super-easy for him, it's a sinch and you get the best of both worlds.

This issue is quite complex. Ever since wikis appeared people debated complete freedom of edit vs locking stuff down. Some favor an extreme where it's completely open and bad stuff is simply reverted and backups used in worst case scenarios (passive resistance), whereas others will ban IP blocks and require logins at the drop of a hat.

It can get quite philosophical. Maybe reading this can help.

Bottom line, lay down some ground rules and make some decisions first.
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khalsa

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2008, 01:46:14 pm »
* Will it need categories?
Yes
* Images: Will it need to be able to post images? Will anybody be able to post images or just select users? In which manner will images be posted/stored?
Yes, I think all registered users. (aka forum users)
* Likewise with HTML.
Nobody
* What pages should be locked? In my experience, at the very least the homepage should be, because it is _the_ single wiki page that seems to absolutely fascinate idiots into "defacing" it in various ways.
Highly debateable, but I'd probably leave it up to whomever steps up to help.
I believe MediaWiki has all of the above.
I've allready pretty much decided on MediaWiki thanks!

There is also the issue of policy as to who can edit what.
Only logged in, registered forum users can edit. Forum admin = sysop, mod = bureaucrat, member=user
Bottom line, lay down some ground rules and make some decisions first.
Agreed!

Thanks for your input!
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khalsa

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2008, 02:43:32 pm »
Is this wiki going to contain lore etc. or just information on Tremulous?

Just info,support,docs,etc.
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Urcscumug

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2008, 04:29:18 pm »
Does that mean only technical stuff related to Tremulous the client and server (installing, running, configuration)? Because there are lots of other Tremulous topics; granted, many have been covered extensively elsewhere, but perhaps that's just because there wasn't a central place.

Examples:
* Strategy. This one is huge. Good map locations for human/alien, pro and con examples of base building with pics, tactics (rushes, blockade, taunting, human/alien groups) etc.
* Gameplay. Weapon usage for humans, ability usage for aliens, tips and tricks, what's good for what etc. Binds, sensitivity etc. would probably also fall under this category.
* Mod database: maps, mods, huds, models, sounds, music etc.
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David

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2008, 04:56:24 pm »
Its a wiki, so I would say allow anything trem related.
Everything you listed would fit (sorta) into "info,support,docs,etc"
I vote let it grow and redo the front page as new stuff arrives.
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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khalsa

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2008, 05:27:02 pm »
To be honest I don't really care as long as it's easy to use, logical, organized, and not spammy. Lore should be the least focused thing. I think lore is more appropriate on the forums anyways..


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Undeference

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2008, 08:26:25 pm »
You know this means the forum needs [wiki]...[/wiki], right?
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Kaleo

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2008, 02:48:34 pm »
Is this wiki going to contain lore etc. or just information on Tremulous?

Just info,support,docs,etc.

Awww... I like lore. Where would any game be without lore?

Look at WoW (looks like im pulling another WoW reference out of my arse). It would be dull, uninteresting and overall boring (if you don't already think it is) if it didn't have mountains of lore behind it.

There's my 2 cents. Don't flame me for playing WoW, or you will feel the wrath of my logical and well presented logic.
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David

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2008, 07:52:46 pm »
WoW is an RPG.  Trem is an FPS.  Massive difference.
And why should lore be on a wiki?  The forums work much much better.
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.

Roanoke

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2008, 04:21:18 am »
Lore is not subject to change. Things like mod concepts are.

Kaleo

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2008, 08:09:43 am »
Lore is not subject to change. Things like mod concepts are.

This is exactly the point. Mod concepts and discussions are suited for forums, while lore is more suited to a wiki.

Admittedly in a game like Tremulous where there is no fixed lore, a forum is a good place to discuss it. However, there are fixed opinions, such as the Haos Redros corporations payment of the mercenary clone armies.

WoW is an RPG.  Trem is an FPS.  Massive difference.

No there isn't. If I was making a point about gameplay you would have a point. You don't, however, because I was talking about background lore. WoW is steeped in lore, but so is the Quake series (or at least 2,4 and QW) which is an FPS. Being an FPS has nothing to do with it.
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David

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2008, 11:13:48 am »
It has a lot to do with player expectations.

But the main point I was making is that wiki's are good for things that have lots of authors working on the same thing, and little discussion about it, while forums are good for things with just one author, and lots of discussion.
Thus guides work on a wiki, and lore / art works best here.  On a wiki it'll just end up with loads of comment spam all over it, and then someone will "improve" it, and you'll end up in an edit war, with no way to resolve it, as there is no way to resolve a matter of opinion.
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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My words are mine and mine alone.  I can't speak for anyone else, and there is no one who can speak for me.  If I ever make a post that gives the opinions or positions of other users or groups, then they will be clearly labeled as such.
I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.

Roanoke

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2008, 05:30:42 pm »
I don't believe you understand, Kaleo. 'Lore is not subject to change' means that there is no reason for someone (other than the author) to tamper/change/modify it in any way. 'Things like mod concepts are' means that mod concepts are supposed to at least become a mod, if not integrated into the normal game, so they will no doubt need lots of tweaks. Having multiple people suggest and execute their tweaks enables this process to go faster.

mooseberry

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2008, 06:59:12 pm »
The problem I see with lore on a wiki, while I do think it could be cool, is that like mentioned there will be many edit wars. Someone will write something, someone will tamper with it.. blablabla. And even if that doesn't happen, it will happen because no one but the author posts in it, which defeats the purpose of a wiki.
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khalsa

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2008, 10:42:57 pm »
//Idea/Concept for Wiki arrangement

GamePlay
	
Team Over Views
	
- Class, 
WeaponEquiptmentBuildable OverViews/Information
	
Team Stratergy
	
Building Stratergy

	
Map OverViews/Info/Stratergy
	
Settings/Options
	
Setting Up A Server
	
Backround to the game

Development
	
Dev Team
	
Mapping
	
Modding


I think Knowitalls suggestion is decent enough. Anyone else want to comment before I launch with that?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 10:46:05 pm by khalsa »
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David

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2008, 11:08:07 pm »
Looks OK to me.
What are the rules to the wiki going to be?  Wikipedia style [citation-needed] stuffs, or original research etc etc all allowed?
Obviously guides etc are never going to encyclopaedic, but lots of other bits could be.
Also, are we writing for 1.1 or 1.2 or what?  IMO it should be future-proof, with everything marked as to what versions its about so when 1.2 comes its not a ton of work.
Also, what'e deal with mods etc?  Should Settings/Options cover non-default stuff?  And setting up a server shouldn't be 1.1, but what should it be?  That's an edit war right there...
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.

danmal

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2008, 09:58:32 am »
The problem I see with lore on a wiki, while I do think it could be cool, is that like mentioned there will be many edit wars. Someone will write something, someone will tamper with it.. blablabla. And even if that doesn't happen, it will happen because no one but the author posts in it, which defeats the purpose of a wiki.

Urban Dead'd wiki has a lot of lore on it. Obviously Urban Dead and Tremulous aren't very similar however it does show that lore can reside quite happily on a wiki. If it's related to Tremulous then I don't see why it shouldn't be on the wiki. If people don't want 'their' lore tampered with they can still post it on the forums.

Looks OK to me.
What are the rules to the wiki going to be?  Wikipedia style [citation-needed] stuffs, or original research etc etc all allowed?
Obviously guides etc are never going to encyclopaedic, but lots of other bits could be.

I don't think requiring citations is a very good idea at all. I'm having a hard time thinking of any reliables sources we could use for a Tremulous wiki. About the only things that could perhaps have citations from reliable sources would be things that don't need citations (eg names of weapons, etc). Using sources that aren't 'reliable' (eg forum posts, blogs) defeats the whole purpose of using citations in the first place.

Also, are we writing for 1.1 or 1.2 or what?  IMO it should be future-proof, with everything marked as to what versions its about so when 1.2 comes its not a ton of work.

If we decided to mark what versions (1.1 or 1.2) the wiki page is about then we'd have to mark pretty much every page in game play. Not necessarily a bad thing though and definitely something that should be thought about.

I hope I made a bit of sense there as I have a splitting headache at the moment.

David

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2008, 01:27:01 pm »
Looks OK to me.
What are the rules to the wiki going to be?  Wikipedia style [citation-needed] stuffs, or original research etc etc all allowed?
Obviously guides etc are never going to encyclopaedic, but lots of other bits could be.
I don't think requiring citations is a very good idea at all. I'm having a hard time thinking of any reliables sources we could use for a Tremulous wiki. About the only things that could perhaps have citations from reliable sources would be things that don't need citations (eg names of weapons, etc). Using sources that aren't 'reliable' (eg forum posts, blogs) defeats the whole purpose of using citations in the first place.

Both ends of the scale are bad.  But there is plenty of room in the middle to find a nice spot, and IMO "Share sucks" isn't really the sort of thing that belongs, but where is the line drawn?
And citations will be very useful when talking about the many flame-war-starting topics.
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.

danmal

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2008, 04:00:48 am »
I agree that citations would be nice to have but I'm having a hard time of thinking what we could use as citations and when we would use them. Perhaps if you gave me some examples of what sort of citations (eg, from newspapers, blog posts, etc) we'd use and when we would have to use them (eg anything that isn't tagged as a guide) then I could get my head around this idea?

Paradox

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2008, 04:47:51 am »
If we decided to mark what versions (1.1 or 1.2) the wiki page is about then we'd have to mark pretty much every page in game play. Not necessarily a bad thing though and definitely something that should be thought about.

I know a method of adding a template that appears above the frame, with a title, so if we ever have to come to this, we could do version markings.

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khalsa

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2008, 06:51:46 am »
O hi.

Wiki is pretty much 'ready' for content. Categories are in place and are ready to go. Theme is almost done. I think it's safe to say we can slowly get started. Any kinks that we run into, we can work out as we go along.

If you guys could start moving the good content from tremwiki.com into the appropriate categories would be great. We can do a full "hard" launch once that is done, as I'll make tremwiki.com point to  our new official wiki: http://www.tremulous.net/wiki .

I have also added a wiki button that does [wiki] [/wiki]

Which can be used: [wiki]Main_Page[/wiki] which produces [wiki]Main_Page[/wiki]

Or you can do [wiki=Main_Page]Click here[/wiki] which produces [wiki=Main_Page]Click here[/wiki]

Everyone can login with their forum username and password, though there might be some initial issues with logging in, especially forum users who have spaces in your names. If you are affected, please post here or PM me and I hope to get those all resolved asap.

Also, at this time I'd like to keep lore and other such stuff off the wiki until we've come up with an appropriate policy to govern them. Let's just keep it facts/help/FAQ/support/definitions/etc. until then (similar to what tremwiki.com currently has.)

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danmal

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2008, 08:02:30 am »
Great to hear. Looks like we've almost got all the default maps included already! Hopefully we'll be able to begin adding lore to the wiki soon.

Undeference

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2008, 08:53:25 am »
Which can be used: [wiki]Main_Page[/wiki] which produces [wiki]Main_Page[/wiki]
One more thing: [wiki]Main Page[/wiki] (and [wiki]main page[/wiki]) should be the same as [wiki]Main_Page[/wiki]
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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2008, 12:27:59 pm »
So what are we doing about versions?  More importantly, what about things that change between 1.1 and newer clients/qvms?
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
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I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.

Amanieu

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2008, 12:38:21 pm »
Modding and mapping sections are for howtos or already-released mods/maps? (or both)
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David

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Re: Wanted: (Media)Wiki Guru and opinions.
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2008, 01:15:18 pm »
".svg" is not a permitted file type. Permitted file types are png, gif, jpg, jpeg.
Can we have SVG's too?

EDIT: [wiki]R_gamma[/wiki]  Is that how it should be?  We should agree on a style before all doing different things.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 01:39:12 pm by David »
Any maps not in the MG repo?  Email me or come to irc.freenode.net/#mg.
--
My words are mine and mine alone.  I can't speak for anyone else, and there is no one who can speak for me.  If I ever make a post that gives the opinions or positions of other users or groups, then they will be clearly labeled as such.
I'm disappointed that people's past actions have forced me to state what should be obvious.
I am not a dev.  Nothing I say counts for anything.