What about 3D engine ?

[mooseberry]

It doesn't seem to dark to me. >.>

A nice job overall though.

[David]

Yep nice job with the 8fps.

[danmal]

In which of the screenies did he have 8 fps?

[Asche]

So 8fps it on video, and it is quite normal!

Do you ever try to un /video on a demo in tremulous? yes? no?

I think not, otherwise you would know that this is not the fluidity of the game in normal operation.

The principle of video is to make a screenshot of each frame to send any event within a video file that it will be in 25 frames per second.

as the games can not make screenshot 25/seconds (especially in the resolution I use: 1280 * 1024) it slowed the game 8fps to have the time to screenshot necessary and create a fluid movie.

So 8fps is quite normal.

As for the dark side, he is wanted in the video to show the effect, but in the final map, just a small part of the map might not have light, the rest would also clarify that the map for tremulous present!

Tell yourself that all this are only test, it does not create a room light for a test, it is already doing so.

[Thorn]

No offense but you really should have waited until you had a set of screenshots and a map that was at a higher standard than the average boxmap.

Also, with reliefmapping(parallax) mapping my fps drops to 40 ( 1024x768 ) on a 7600GT, between 10-15 depending on scene complexity at 1680x1050.
With just normalmapping enabled, I can average ~150fps everywhere (1680x1050). Yes, that's faster than tremulous even with normalmapping and HDR enabled.

[Asche]

I understand, but we (Tremap) wanted to show that the proposed port was still active, we show you only follow, not a conclusion.

The parallax mapping can be it disabled and is not necessary to play happily:) the less powerful pc should be able to have a record of dynamic light and play properly:)

[Thorn]

It might have been smarter to take an existing tremulous map and port it to xreal then do the texture work, like I did with quake2world for the deluxemapping it was using.

http://ader008.titandsl.co.uk/thorn/q2w/quake2world46.jpg
http://ader008.titandsl.co.uk/thorn/q2w/quake2world41.jpg
http://ader008.titandsl.co.uk/thorn/q2w/quake2world55.jpg

Shiny but eh, never got around to fixing that

You could take a more complex map, eg nexus/arachnid and port to xreal including all the textures, so that the community would see a clear example of xreals power.

[Asche]

It is a good idea to convert a map in its entirety, ATCS is a good example.

I think I'll try the experiment:)

About your screens, I think the bumpmapping is not very pretty, Tremap that the difference is that we ourselves create the heightmap and texture normalmap, we do not use software that is this work for us automatically.

I think that the rendering of ATCS with a technical manual deluxemapping makes it much better.
I would like to test and post screen when I finished.

[mooseberry]

ATCS is not a good example. If you really want to show it off, you should probably try Arachnid2.

[Asche]

Too late...

The conversion of textures is already begin... I work all day so I will not stop everything and move to a map, which requires even more work !

[Thorn]

It is a good idea to convert a map in its entirety, ATCS is a good example.

I think I'll try the experiment:)

About your screens, I think the bumpmapping is not very pretty, Tremap that the difference is that we ourselves create the heightmap and texture normalmap, we do not use software that is this work for us automatically.

I think that the rendering of ATCS with a technical manual deluxemapping makes it much better.
I would like to test and post screen when I finished.

Actually you're entirely wrong.

Those normalmaps were hand drawn, the actual images are perfectly fine however limited to the resolution to ATCS texture sizes. The reason they look a bit off is because Q2W uses deluxe mapping, which is alot more inaccurate and tacky than Xreals relief mapping. If I were to use those in xreal ( and I have ) with the heightmap, they look much tider.

I did those textures and had that method before tremap even existed

[Asche]

Sorry for my speedy trial.

Indeed, I look down the loan and the bump is handmade it is a certainty.

Of course the method of hand made normalmap date Tremap before we invent anything ^^

You know, the first time I saw the screens it was on the screen of my laptop, so difficult to realize :p 

[jal]

The reason they look a bit off is because Q2W uses deluxe mapping, which is alot more inaccurate and tacky than Xreals relief mapping. If I were to use those in xreal ( and I have ) with the heightmap, they look much tider.

Deluxemapping and reliefmapping are not equivalents which can be compared

Anyway, I think I know what you mean. Let me see if I can put it right:

- Bumpmapping is a per-pixel technique to generate shadows to each pixel
- Reliefmapping is a per-pixel technique to generate volume (height, as in a terrain) to each pixel.
- Specular mapping is a per-pixel technique to generate light reflections to each pixel.
- Deluxemapping is a lightmap technique to store face-relative surface direction to each pixel which can be used to generate the bumpmapping shadows or the specular mapping reflections.

This means. XReal has bumpmapping which is generated to each pixel in real time, allowing the lights to dynamically change. It also allows to generate specular reflections from several light sources. It also has reliefmapping.

Quake2World has bumpmapping which is generated to each pixel from a precomputed deluxemap (a lightmap of directions). Not allowing lights to dynamically change nor being able to overlap several specular mapping sources. It also has reliefmapping? (I don't know if it does or not, but I guess so).

BTW, Deluxemapping is what Warsow uses too. Nexuiz uses it as default also, but optionally does both. XReal used to have optional deluxemapping too, dunno if it's still there.

The second method is much faster to render. The first is more complete.

[{7}wrath]

I just realized something.

Some people say if we upgrade the engine we will lose players because their lower graphics capabilities will make it impossible to play the game.
What I realized is that we will also get more, new players because they will be attracted to the glitzy graphics.

So it turns out that fun is actually a function of graphics quality.

[borsuk]

I just realized something.

Some people say if we upgrade the engine we will lose players because their lower graphics capabilities will make it impossible to play the game.
What I realized is that we will also get more, new players because they will be attracted to the glitzy graphics.

...and hardware gets older (and cheaper) too. Today's flashy tremulous graphics will be tommorow's ascetic. People who can (but will not) play Tremulous with higher requirements may reconsider once it's one of few games that work on their machine.

In a couple of places Tremulous has archaic limits. When I started playing on development servers I had to download a bunch of maps... with 3kb/s speed. On my 10 Mbit connection. I realize people still have slower connections, but this is getting silly. At the very least server should allow fullspeed downloads if there are no people playing at the moment.

[mooseberry]

In a couple of places Tremulous has archaic limits. When I started playing on development servers I had to download a bunch of maps... with 3kb/s speed. On my 10 Mbit connection. I realize people still have slower connections, but this is getting silly. At the very least server should allow fullspeed downloads if there are no people playing at the moment.

This is your fault, not Tremulous'.

[danmal]

In a couple of places Tremulous has archaic limits. When I started playing on development servers I had to download a bunch of maps... with 3kb/s speed. On my 10 Mbit connection. I realize people still have slower connections, but this is getting silly. At the very least server should allow fullspeed downloads if there are no people playing at the moment.

This is your fault, not Tremulous'.

That's the devs fault actually. You can download a client (Tremfusion springs to mind) that allows you to download maps at your full speed.

[mooseberry]

In a couple of places Tremulous has archaic limits. When I started playing on development servers I had to download a bunch of maps... with 3kb/s speed. On my 10 Mbit connection. I realize people still have slower connections, but this is getting silly. At the very least server should allow fullspeed downloads if there are no people playing at the moment.

This is your fault, not Tremulous'.

That's the devs fault actually. You can download a client (Tremfusion springs to mind) that allows you to download maps at your full speed.

Ok, true. But if he is still using default client he can't really complain about issues like that.

[Odin]

The reason they look a bit off is because Q2W uses deluxe mapping, which is alot more inaccurate and tacky than Xreals relief mapping. If I were to use those in xreal ( and I have ) with the heightmap, they look much tider.

Deluxemapping and reliefmapping are not equivalents which can be compared

Anyway, I think I know what you mean. Let me see if I can put it right:

- Bumpmapping is a per-pixel technique to generate shadows to each pixel
- Reliefmapping is a per-pixel technique to generate volume (height, as in a terrain) to each pixel.
- Specular mapping is a per-pixel technique to generate light reflections to each pixel.
- Deluxemapping is a lightmap technique to store face-relative surface direction to each pixel which can be used to generate the bumpmapping shadows or the specular mapping reflections.

This means. XReal has bumpmapping which is generated to each pixel in real time, allowing the lights to dynamically change. It also allows to generate specular reflections from several light sources. It also has reliefmapping.

Quake2World has bumpmapping which is generated to each pixel from a precomputed deluxemap (a lightmap of directions). Not allowing lights to dynamically change nor being able to overlap several specular mapping sources. It also has reliefmapping? (I don't know if it does or not, but I guess so).

BTW, Deluxemapping is what Warsow uses too. Nexuiz uses it as default also, but optionally does both. XReal used to have optional deluxemapping too, dunno if it's still there.

The second method is much faster to render. The first is more complete.

XreaL uses deluxemapping(by default) with high-resolution lightmaps. The difference between the lightmapping mode and the realtime mode(in a well-lit map) is almost indiscernible. The only places where you see a difference is where multiple lights are next to each other. This seems to throw off the map compiler and produce strange(but hard to see) results. Lightmap mode is also many times faster than the realtime rendering mode.

[kevlarman]

Quake2World has bumpmapping which is generated to each pixel from a precomputed deluxemap (a lightmap of directions). Not allowing lights to dynamically change nor being able to overlap several specular mapping sources. It also has reliefmapping? (I don't know if it does or not, but I guess so).

parallax actually, from the heightmap in the alpha channel of the normal map.

[jal]

Parallax is just one of the many ways of applying reliefmapping. It has a cool-name-factor that made it more famous than the rest, but it's nothing else than reliefmapping done quick.

XreaL uses deluxemapping(by default) with high-resolution lightmaps. The difference between the lightmapping mode and the realtime mode(in a well-lit map) is almost indiscernible.

We (Warsow) and Nexuiz also use deluxemapping with high resolution lightmaps. And I can see the difference just by looking to a screenshot. The limitations don't actually affect the bumpmapping very much, but it's very clear when coming down to specular mapping. I'm not saying with this deluxemapping isn't the way to go. You can check this very same thread and you'll find myself recommending deluxemapping as the future for Tremulous against the people requesting real time rendering.

[MitSugna]

Now, we know the difference between lighting methods. We only need an implementation that is fast, compatible and has a fallback mechanism.

[ShadowNinjaDudeMan]

If you look through other MMOFPS and compare them graphically to Tremulous, you will quickly realise just how pretty Trem is.

No really, check AA. Disgusting.
(only Cube 2 is better, but it has no gameplay, 'cept for maybe slightly in the developing RPG side)

[MitSugna]

Alien Arena? Yes, it is bad but not because of the engine.
What about Nexuiz, Warsow and maybe Quake2World ?
IMO, those are not bad.
What is your point? Tremulous doesn't need a new engine? I'd agree.

[your face]

Warsow sucks because no one put any thought into the maps, except that filterforge + boxmap = .  Q2W sucks because it stole TRaK.  Alien Arena sucks because it just does.  Nexuiz sucks because I forgot why.

[CreatureofHell]

Q2W sucks because it stole TRaK.

Those bastards! 

[Demolution]

Q2W sucks because it stole TRaK.

Those bastards! 

You can't, however, deny that TRaK made some pretty beautiful maps for Q2W.
http://trak.mercenariesguild.net/

[your face]

which is exactly why they are evil.

[player1]

still, they are stunning in their evil beauty

imma missin him rite nao cuz i finally lissened to his musical suggestions, lawl

[Drag222]

Up !
Asche talked about remaking ATCS on Xreal... Still nothing? 
I realy would like to see what does it look like the one made on q2w already looks nice