Non-Gameplay Updates Jan 19 2011

[Lakitu7]

Some new changes have gone into trunk worth announcing here. They're on the official servers now too.

* (bug 2929) Prevent buildable model and bbox from being too far from each other (glitch building). Thanks F50, gimhael.
With this most things people call "glitch building" are eliminated or severely neutered. Models may be below the bounding box still but the degree is limited to only be so very slightly (within 15 units).

* (bug 4879) Prevent teamchanges for gameplay exploit reasons by enforcing a 30 second wait before you can change again
See http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=15012.0

* (bug 4684) Don't stop playing a demo when someone presses TAB etc. (Giulio Dignitoso)
Most people who watch a lot of demos already use something that does this.

* Print pause time in seconds instead of ms when unpaused
* Implement a max pause time of 2 minutes in case an admin lags out or something after pausing
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=14970.0

* Don't display location during intermission

* g_disabled* cvars are used by ui but were not communicated to the client
* Don't let maps set {alien,human}BuildPoints since that's probably not good
* Let maps set temporary variables instead of cvars (for e.g., gravity)


If you want an updated client binary (not required to play) for the demos change or still haven't updated for the userinfo cvars fix (wallwalk etc.), I have some compiled for windows/linux here: (64 bit thanks kevlarman)
http://lakitu.mercenariesguild.net/temp/gpp/

[Meisseli]

Yay indeed. Nice fixes!

[Cadynum]

...

Nice.

Why not update the front page with the new binaries?
I'm sure there are a lot of people not reading the forums that would enjoy the fixes, especially the font slowdown fix.

[Lakitu7]

Font slowdown fix was in cgame/ui, not client. If you're playing on the server you have it already.

Otherwise, not my decision

[Lakitu7]

Whoops, the x86_x64 build posted here wasn't the right one. It's replaced now.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Allow changing team instantly in /devmap and when dead (this also makes the requirement to spawn for the timer to start irrelevant).

I don't agree with not letting maps set bps, some special maps may require an unusual layout which might need more bps. If some server ops don't like the change but still want the map, they should be able to set it back to default in mapconfigs/mapname.cfg.

Offtopic, but is the wallwalk camera bug (camera changing direction when wallwalk + touch another player) fixed?

[Lakitu7]

Allow changing team instantly in /devmap

Okay. Changed in trunk.

and when dead (this also makes the requirement to spawn for the timer to start irrelevant), where that would not.

This way also discourages ghosting and other such teamchange nonsense.

I don't agree with not letting maps set bps, some special maps may require an unusual layout which might need more bps. If some server ops don't like the change but still want the map, they should be able to set it back to default in mapconfigs/mapname.cfg.

This one was Undeference's change, not mine, but personally I think that if a map needs to change balance cvars to be played, it's a broken map, so I have no objection here.

Offtopic, but is the wallwalk camera bug (camera changing direction when wallwalk + touch another player) fixed?

That one's a bitch and as far as I know nobody has figured it out, no, but this is not the thread to talk about it in.

[UniqPhoeniX]

I don't agree with not letting maps set bps, some special maps may require an unusual layout which might need more bps. If some server ops don't like the change but still want the map, they should be able to set it back to default in mapconfigs/mapname.cfg.

This one was Undeference's change, not mine, but personally I think that if a map needs to change balance cvars to be played, it's a broken map, so I have no objection here.

So you are saying we are only allowed to play the game the way you want us to play it? Your definition of 'broken' doesn't always match what server ops think. Maps like Knowitall's Hard landing are simply not allowed (without a mod, which pretty much means it won't get on most servers, and that means mappers have less incentive to make such maps)?
This kind of shit is one reason why I'm not mapping for trem. Mappers can only make maps that have: no water (aliens TOTALLY suck in water), no high/large open areas (unlimited jetpack), no proper objective maps (can't touch anything gameplay side), etc, etc. Every kind of map that can be made without mods has been made, all we have now is just different looking corridors, the gameplay is 99% the same on all of them.

[Lakitu7]

Any competitive game with maps has these sorts of things. Look at mapping for competitive Starcraft. As for this particular change, it's a difference of "it is a, but server owners can make it b" versus "it is b, but server owners can make it a". * shrug

[David]

There's nothing to stop you distributing a recommended mapconfig and some layouts with your map.

Given how many servers have non-default bp, I'd bet maps setting it breaks more servers than it helps.

[Celestial_Rage]

In /listadmins, the colors bleed over to the next line.

For instance

64 6 Server Operator A Blue Name
65 6 Server Operator Another Name
^^^
Blue.

Not a big deal, just thought I'd mention it.

Edit: It happens in namelog as well. (Although I haven't tested this on US1)

[Meisseli]

Tyrant charge does no damage to anyone on top of a medistation. /offtopic

[F50]

Mappers can only make maps that have: no water (aliens TOTALLY suck in water), no high/large open areas (unlimited jetpack), no proper objective maps (can't touch anything gameplay side), etc, etc.

Well, you could make a map for certain mods. A mod to change alien movement in water is more than possible.

[UniqPhoeniX]

There's nothing to stop you distributing a recommended mapconfig and some layouts with your map.

Given how many servers have non-default bp, I'd bet maps setting it breaks more servers than it helps.

And then if the server op wants to make his own mapconfig to add something, he will need to extract your mapconfig from the pk3 first... I don't see any point in making it more difficult for everyone, even mapping guides will need to be updated for this, in addition of any already released maps being broken.
If your map requires a specific amount of bp to play properly, setting bps to the right value by default won't break any servers. In addition to that I think in both 1.1 and 1.2 most servers have default BP.

Mappers can only make maps that have: no water (aliens TOTALLY suck in water), no high/large open areas (unlimited jetpack), no proper objective maps (can't touch anything gameplay side), etc, etc.

Well, you could make a map for certain mods. A mod to change alien movement in water is more than possible.

... which pretty much means it won't get on most servers, and that means mappers have less incentive to make such maps...

AMP maps required a mod, and that is one of the reasons why it was never really picked up. In total there are about 5 serious AMP maps AFAIK. AMP had TONS of features and got ~5 maps. How many do you think will take advantage of a mod that (at most) only lets you set bp, has limited jetpack and improves alien swimming?

[Tremulant]

If your map requires a specific amount of bp to play properly,

then it's a silly map and doesn't deserve to be played.

[Conzul]

If your map requires a specific amount of bp to play properly,

then it's a silly map and doesn't deserve to be played.

A map that "doesn't deserve" to be played based on its size....      Go back to ATCS, fuckwad.

[David]

There's nothing to stop you distributing a recommended mapconfig and some layouts with your map.

Given how many servers have non-default bp, I'd bet maps setting it breaks more servers than it helps.

And then if the server op wants to make his own mapconfig to add something, he will need to extract your mapconfig from the pk3 first... I don't see any point in making it more difficult for everyone, even mapping guides will need to be updated for this, in addition of any already released maps being broken.

I didn't mean in the pk3, I'd like to think any map config in a pk3 would be ignored.

I meant have a couple of extra files to download with the map.

[your face]

* Don't let maps set {alien,human}BuildPoints since that's probably not good

Hi, I strongly agree with UniqPhoenix against this change.  Please don't further restrict community mappers who sacrifice their time and effort for Tremulous.  "since that's probably not good":  if it's not good, then don't put a map on the server that has buildpoint issues.

Another reason not to map for this anti-mod-elitist game.

[Undeference]

The only map I know of that even sets build points is pulse and it sets build points for humans and aliens to 110. The current defaults are 100 for humans and 150 for aliens. With build point zones (+20) there is no good way to let maps set build points, aside from letting them set even more variables that server operators will complain about.

I have seen tons of threads where server operators complain about maps changing their settings, but none where map makers complain about not being able to change more settings. In other words, you are complaining about a change that has no real downside because if it were used in a way that made sense, that would be bad. But it's not.

If you make a map that really needs to be played with different build point amount, then strongly suggest that people set that in their map configs. Don't complain that not all server operators want to run your map the way you intended.

[Tremulant]

If your map requires a specific amount of bp to play properly,

then it's a silly map and doesn't deserve to be played.

A map that "doesn't deserve" to be played based on its size....      Go back to ATCS, fuckwad.

Hmm, that seems like a bit of an overreaction, which awesome megamaps am i missing out on? being a fuckwad i wouldn't know, afterall.

[Conzul]

If your map requires a specific amount of bp to play properly,

then it's a silly map and doesn't deserve to be played.

A map that "doesn't deserve" to be played based on its size....      Go back to ATCS, fuckwad.

Hmm, that seems like a bit of an overreaction, which awesome megamaps am i missing out on? being a fuckwad i wouldn't know, afterall.

Maybe, but you're looking too closely at what I said, not what you said.

Edit: Hint: If (for example, Vega Industries) a great, artful, well-made map had some idiosyncracies that called for an unorthodox BP setup, you would call it a "silly map" that shouldn't be played. Such blanket statements make you look silly, not the map.

[Meisseli]

Maybe, but you're looking too closely at what I said, not what you said.

Edit: Hint: If (for example, Vega Industries) a great, artful, well-made map had some idiosyncracies that called for an unorthodox BP setup, you would call it a "silly map" that shouldn't be played. Such blanket statements make you look silly, not the map.

Vega has horrible alien gameplay issues and doesn't have a different BP setup. You cannot give a specific example of a good map with different amounts of build points since none exist.

[WoGoMo]

The glitch building fix looks a little umm... glitchy.

[Lakitu7]

In /listadmins, the colors bleed over to the next line.

For instance

64 6 Server Operator A Blue Name
65 6 Server Operator Another Name
^^^
Blue.

Not a big deal, just thought I'd mention it.

Edit: It happens in namelog as well. (Although I haven't tested this on US1)

Undeference fixed this after seeing your post. Thanks. It'll go live at the next server update.

The glitch building fix looks a little umm... glitchy.

Wow I guess the bbox for that case was super high above the model. Well, it looks kind of silly, but fixing it "better" than this within the current engine would involve preventing you from building there at all, and people tend to complain if we further restrict where builders can build, so I guess this is how it has to be.

This "fix" to glitch building is really just a compromise solution but a little bit of floating seems much better than the old situation of requiring players to know to shoot at invisible stuff.

[Paradox]

About the whole mappers vs server ops thing:
g_allowMapChanges

[David]

Makes things even less predictable and thus more annoying for everyone involved.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Blackout requires setting diff BP (Ofc it requires a mod anyway), and Hard Landing. Still, who here volunteers to update mapping guides? OR could we please just let MAPPERS decide how to map?

[Deadbeat Engineer]

Lakitu, are the .exe's for Windows? And is there a 64-bit version for Windows at all? I don't wanna fuck with anything that already has enough problems on my machine...

[Tremulant]

exes are for windows, and i can't imagine you'd have trouble running the 32bit version on x86-64 windows, just don't overwrite the original file, if you're worried.

[Lakitu7]

Exes are for windows. There are no x64 specific binaries for windows. Use the exes (which are 32, but 64-bit machines can run them fine). Don't feel like you're missing much. The 64-bit binaries for linux aren't even faster and they're actually slower to load maps.