Solution to !setlevel issues.

[c4]

Hi All,

Just my 2 cents:

After setlevel having been taken away from all other than the devs, many players have had trouble renaming for many reasons.  I for one have two machines, each with atleast two operating systems.  I love playing under the same name on all of them, but then, on the least used of the operating systems (Windows) I was given L1 by a dev, and now I can no longer use that name.  I haven't bothered posting anything about it simply because it's a whole bunch of trouble (and energy) so I can use an alias. 

The response from the community for such threads has been "Why do we all have to be punished?  Can't you give us setlevel back?"  to which the devs have said "Giving you back setlevel is like giving you a handgun and telling you to pull the trigger"  And it seems as if any command that's used amply (Other than mute!) has been taken away from admins.  For instance, WarLock using allready was generally enjoyable.  I mean, waiting for all players to click/the 20summat second threshold can sometimes be a little long, and I for one actually thought that Warlock was doing the rest of us a favor.

In anycase, seeing as the only benefits of Level 1 on the official servers is name protection, why not give all admins over level 1 (2,3,4) or whichever you see fit the ability to !L0 and !L1 players with less than level 2?  This way, admin cannot be taken away from those who it has been given to, but people with new qkeys can have their old GUID set to 0 by anyone.  Of course, this wouldn't apply for level 2 and above admins who needed their priveleges back, but as far as I know, most of the admins are active both ingame and on forums (with the exception of the devs)

~Spthysis

[Asvarox]

You can copy qkey from one OS to another so you have lvl1 and your name on both, I think.

Also, the lvl1 thing could be resolved by automatically deleveling lvl1's who werent on for a week or so.

[Spl@]

Also, the lvl1 thing could be resolved by automatically deleveling lvl1's who werent on for a week or so.

Not sure about that. Fortnight away somewhere…?

I'd make that a month.

[Menace13]

Also, the lvl1 thing could be resolved by automatically deleveling lvl1's who werent on for a week or so.

Not sure about that. Fortnight away somewhere…?

I'd make that a month.

I remember SST/Nuts had a command like that...it automatically weeded out all L1s who hadn't been on in a month. Or something like that.

[Undeference]

After setlevel having been taken away from all other than the devs, many players have had trouble renaming for many reasons.  I for one have two machines, each with atleast two operating systems.  I love playing under the same name on all of them, but then, on the least used of the operating systems (Windows) I was given L1 by a dev, and now I can no longer use that name.

Your issue is entirely that you want to use the same name with different GUIDs. More admins having setlevel would not help you. Copying your qkey would.

As for allready, here is tjw's opinion

6. Use !allready sparingly. Some people like to talk in intermission. Take note of who has not readied and consider they may be typing. Do NOT do !allready at the start of warmup.

People who have allready and use it tend to use it immediately at the start of intermission. Since intermission never lasts very long, using allready is likely more annoying than waiting it out.

[Plague Bringer]

As for allready, here is tjw's opinion

6. Use !allready sparingly. Some people like to talk in intermission. Take note of who has not readied and consider they may be typing. Do NOT do !allready at the start of warmup.

People who have allready and use it tend to use it immediately at the start of intermission. Since intermission never lasts very long, using allready is likely more annoying than waiting it out.

As one who is irritated by both being silenced by already and exasperated by the too-long waiting time, I think that the wait time should be reduced and !allready should be remove.

[A Spork]

again, as was stated in th last thread re: allready:
if its being abused by someone, just remove it from them, no reason to remove it from everyone else.

[c4]

You guys are missing the point!

After setlevel having been taken away from all other than the devs, many players have had trouble renaming for many reasons.  I for one have two machines, each with atleast two operating systems.  I love playing under the same name on all of them, but then, on the least used of the operating systems (Windows) I was given L1 by a dev, and now I can no longer use that name.

Your issue is entirely that you want to use the same name with different GUIDs. More admins having setlevel would not help you. Copying your qkey would.

Again, missing the point.  It's just my example, not others.  I mean, most Server Regulars as they're called have no clue what a qkey is.  Giving admins the ability to !L1 and !L0 isn't really harming you guys in any way, now is it?

again, as was stated in th last thread re: allready:
if its being abused by someone, just remove it from them, no reason to remove it from everyone else.

Quite Honestly, I'd guess that they just removed it from everyone because it's easier.  But, I mean, most of the break between games is used for trolls to call everyone homoesexual at this point anyway, and I can't see anybody you actually frequents the servers wanting to listen to this during the intermission. 

[Dr. A. Goon]

I was just using intermission as a discussion space 7 hours ago; and no-one called me a homosexual.

[c4]

Obviously you've never played with Iabz, or anyone in the clan called Sir| other than Menace. :}

[Menace13]

Obviously you've never played with Iabz, or anyone in the clan called Sir| other than Menace. :}

Or WoGoMo, Pup Tentacle, Deadbeat Engineer, Kasofa, Anonymoose, Shiz Nikxz, AntiMatter, Mustard, HeAdHunTeR, Periculosus, Minimoose, Bumble/Crouchalot, Fluffalot, or even [KillWhore].
But thanks anyways :3

[David]

If people can't keep a civil tongue, then that's what mute/kick/ban are for.

[Tremulant]

Quite Honestly, I'd guess that they just removed it from everyone because it's easier. 

Well, maybe, or it could just be that no one actually needs it for anything, it's an annoying command used solely by kids with ADHD, waiting for players to ready themselves never hurt anyone...

[A Spork]

What about when no one is saying anything, and the only people who havent clicked are afk. thats when you /allready to get on to the next round.

[F50]

What about actually dealing with rogue admins? Lava would still be an admin if he hadn't gone completely insane with setlevel. Warlock is still an admin despite abusing allready to hell and back (disclaimer: according to the rules stated in the sticky).

Honestly I think g_readypercent from rezyn's 1.2 qvm would be useful as well, however, that isn't the point. The point is that it would be nice if the devs reacted to incidents according to what happened, or made an official statement to clarify proper conduct, rather than amputating anything that gets abused (except for kick, mute, and ban, of course).

For what its worth, I think there were good reasons to remove setlevel from everyone on US1. Lava wasn't it.

EDIT: I guess I should also mention, that setlevel had other issues, and that I think that those issues could be solved by making setlevel not work on people the same level as yourself (and not allowing you to setlevel people to your own level), and making the last person to use setlevel on an admin visible using listadmins so that the very sensible server policy could actually be carried out by people without access to the game logs.

[A Spork]

What about actually dealing with rogue admins? Lava would still be an admin if he hadn't gone completely insane with setlevel. Warlock is still an admin despite abusing allready to hell and back (disclaimer: according to the rules stated in the sticky).

Yes please!

[Tremulant]

What about when no one is saying anything, and the only people who havent clicked are afk. thats when you /allready to get on to the next round.

You wait a few seconds and the next map loads, is it really so hard to deal with?

[A Spork]

its often more than a few seconds.

Why are you so opposed to admins having setlevel and allready?

[Plague Bringer]

It's 20 seconds, last I heard. I think the best solution would be to lessen (say, about half) the intermission length and remove allready completely (and likely implement a small supermajority value for g_readypercent). That would satisfy both the people that want to chat, and the people that don't have too much patience. All that being said, let's get off the allready tangent until setlevel's been resolved? It's getting quite confusing having two conversations going on in the same thread/at the same time.

F50: Care to elaborate?

[Tremulant]

its often more than a few seconds.

Often? Is it not always the same length?

Why are you so opposed to admins having setlevel and allready?

On the official servers? Because i really don't feel that the majority of admins can be trusted with either.

[A Spork]

On the official servers? Because i really don't feel that the majority of admins can be trusted with either.

Then they quite simply shouldnt be admins
easy solution, that only has consequences for those who deserve it.

[Undeference]

Again, missing the point… Giving admins the ability to !L1 and !L0 isn't really harming you guys in any way, now is it?

You are trying to use anecdotal evidence to support your argument that more admins should have setlevel, but failing completely. In your example, more admins having setlevel./l[10] would not solve anything.

[Tremulant]

On the official servers? Because i really don't feel that the majority of admins can be trusted with either.

Then they quite simply shouldnt be admins
easy solution, that only has consequences for those who deserve it.

Why do you care so much? I'm a senior admin, i know i could be trusted with setlevel, however, i really don't give a shit that it's unavailable to me, i can think of virtually no situations where i would have actually needed it. As for removing name protection from L1s who've lost their GUID, it just isn't that important, these players need to be encouraged to learn how to back up their qkey or just not awarded L1 in the first place, they can wait for undeference and co. to sort them out and just add a character to their name in the meantime.

[Plague Bringer]

On the official servers? Because i really don't feel that the majority of admins can be trusted with either.

Then they quite simply shouldnt be admins
easy solution, that only has consequences for those who deserve it.

Why do you care so much? I'm a senior admin, i know i could be trusted with setlevel, however, i really don't give a shit that it's unavailable to me, i can think of virtually no situations where i would have actually needed it. As for removing name protection from L1s who've lost their GUID, it just isn't that important, these players need to be encouraged to learn how to back up their qkey or just not awarded L1 in the first place, they can wait for undeference and co. to sort them out and just add a character to their name in the meantime.

So in other words you want to restrict Tremulous to Linux users and exceptionally self aware Windows users? It would be far more convenient and easy for everyone to cater to your stupider players, as they will end up being the majority of your playerbase. You're hoping that people will learn to back up their qkey when the fact is, they simply won't. You will be swarmed with people asking for their name to be unlocked if 1.2 brings any new players to the game, and this will become exhausting. There is insufficient reason to respect trusted admins with such a pathetically unabusable command, and more and more it seems that this is a conversation about how L5's stick is bigger than everyone else's and they're too fucking happy about that to give it up.

[F50]

It's 20 seconds, last I heard. I think the best solution would be to lessen (say, about half) the intermission length and remove allready completely (and likely implement a small supermajority value for g_readypercent). That would satisfy both the people that want to chat, and the people that don't have too much patience. All that being said, let's get off the allready tangent until setlevel's been resolved? It's getting quite confusing having two conversations going on in the same thread/at the same time.

F50: Care to elaborate?

EDIT: I should note that even in my original post I said that the specifics of allready wasn't why I was brining it up.

I'm not too worried that allready and setlevel are unavailable, I think there are enough admins on US1 (partially thanks to setlevel), and L0 (just for L1s) would be more than sufficient to deal with the problem of relatively new (but otherwise competent) players loosing their GUID. I don't mind admins having to ask the devs if they happen to loose their qkey.

For me, allready is an example of the devs attitude to things going wrong and the maintenance of order. The devs only uphold the rules in highly publicized or egregious cases, and further clarification of the rules might not be given if necessary, as in the case of use allready. Furthermore, proposed solutions to the specific issues involved in allready and setlevel, such as g_readyPercent (I'm actually not entirely sure why that wasn't committed) and L0 (which I'm kinda surprised wasn't put in with L1) are ignored. I'm probably exaggerating a bit here, but its really this side issue that gets to me, rather than whether or not setlevel or allready should be available to admins.

On a side note: the devs could easily have formed a server without those commands and no one would have an issue with it (except perhaps for the name protection commands L1 and L0 which many 1.1 servers used).


Plague Bringer: Mac users are worse I think, they have a much harder time finding fs_homepath.

[Meisseli]

So in other words you want to restrict Tremulous to Linux users and exceptionally self aware Windows users?

Wow, isn't this going overboard. I especially like this quote where if admins are not given the right to setlevel to 0, the players not knowing about qkeys will all quit Tremulous out of frustration and protest.

You will be swarmed with people asking for their name to be unlocked if 1.2 brings any new players to the game, and this will become exhausting.

I feel some things need to be set straight for the clueless fanatics here. There are no swarms of people asking their names back. I've experienced two cases over the 1,5 years, starting from the GPP release, where a player didn't realise to back up his qkey when installing a new computer, and they got their nicknames back in less than a day. (Furthermore, the Official Servers are only there for the gameplay testing phase. When 1.2 is released, they will most probably not exist anymore.)

The supporters are going on like: "99% of the players don't know about the forums! They can't even speak English! Their IQ is 50 and they are complete retards needing their stepfather to come out of the toolshed to even press the button to power up their computers! How can we expect from them to back-up their qkey! Out-RAGEOUS!" Hey, the two guys I dealt with learned about qkeys, what they are for and where to find one. Isn't that the preferred way? That they learn from their mistake?

Truly, there is no grand problem. I don't even see a problem at all. How much can it hurt a player's feelings to include for example one more character in the nickname for a one, perhaps maximum few days? Contrary to the popular belief here, devs are probably not self-righteous asses because they're not finding it worth their time to work to solve a "problem" which doesn't even exist. Most people here are just whining because _they_ don't get to solve the unusual, once-a-half-year issue. Or because they hold a grudge over some completely unrelated issue, such as why _they_ don't get to setlevel people anymore. Grow up. It's not your server, it's not your rules. You are not special even if you've got a nice flag beside your nickname on listplayers, and you _really_ don't get to make demands on getting more power. Only people acting dickish I see here are the power-hungry you. I know that after the setlevel parade that was going - where almost every player on the server was made an admin - it is difficult to be humble. But please at least attempt to be so.

[David]

Easy solution:  Bin level 1 admin.
Not like the name protection works or is needed.

[F50]

If you mean it does not prevent someone from using the same name as a player (or at least appearing to do so), that is correct. However, it *does* allow you to be nearly certain of someone's identity if they show up as registered, a task which would require a good memory and geoip otherwise. It is also possible to be suspicious about someone using a well-known name that isn't registered, but that is not very important in my opinion.

Hardly needed, but I think it has uses. It would be a lot more important if there were more well-known players that are not already admins.

[Plague Bringer]

Mieselli, as much as I exaggerated the issue, you exaggerated the position of everyone for setlevel. It is not a power grab; the "power" in question is the ability to switch players between L1/L0, which is negligibly powerful. You make it seem like we're protesting and pissed off and demanding setlevel, when all that we're doing is defending the points that we're making. Surely, you don't expect us to keel and roll over just because you think your point is more valid than ours? The privileged that is being requested is one that would make the server run more smoothly, and would ease the frustrations of the apparent many people who have to deal with people who lose their qkeys. And don't act like players learning about qkeys cannot come with admins having the ability to bypass the issue. They can go hand in hand quite well.

[kharnov]

I feel some things need to be set straight for the clueless fanatics here. There are no swarms of people asking their names back. I've experienced two cases over the 1,5 years, starting from the GPP release

The problem here is that you're not active during peak times. What you experience is entirely different from what an L4 experiences during the times you're asleep.