Author Topic: Are Tyrants too powerful?  (Read 21294 times)

se7ensnakes

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Are Tyrants too powerful?
« on: May 31, 2011, 05:11:27 pm »
If the humans dont do an early attack they cannot win.  they will get stuck in their own base because one human cannot overcome a tyrant in a small hall, unless the tyrant is a newbie.  The only way that humans could overcome a tyrant in a hall is to go in groups but there is no communication fast enough to do that effectively.  All you need is two expert Tyrants and the whole game is over, despite how good two humans may be. This happens time and time again.  Humans can only camp until sudden death and then game is over. How long can you flank a tyrant in a small hall?  the luci weapon is too awkward, the primarily weapon should be shifted to the secondary weapon because it is faster.  The luci takes a long time to master.  Most people just play the game, they dont want to spend months or even years mastering a weapon.  This is after all a game. Why a luci over a missile fire?  A bazooka or RPG?  It would be easier for a newbie to master.  The luci is way too awkward.

Pazuzu

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2011, 05:47:28 pm »
If you could master a whole game immediately, what would be the point of playing it?

ok, can you give me the tool thingy app that can code?

your face

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2011, 06:17:09 pm »
... and when everyone's super.... muahahaha.  No one is.
spam spam spam, waste waste waste!

Lecavalier

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2011, 06:24:34 pm »
I half expected this to be an admin abuse thread.
I wanted you to see me before I killed you.

Dracone

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2011, 06:42:30 pm »
Lol, the game got an insane difficulty nerf as it is, it's much more easy for a noob to do at least a little bit in this version than it was in 1.1, in part because it's much harder for people to "one man army" in the game now, although you could call out some exceptions for the best human players.

But, the tyrant charge is overpowered in any area where the human has no choice but to be near walls.
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1337-Kynes

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2011, 07:05:04 pm »
I haven't really seen this happen with decent human teams. Attacking in groups is not that hard.
What do you get. When combine. Deuterium pellet. Terrawatt laser.
And primitive Earth leader from Asian steppes.
ANSWER.
KHAN. FUSION.

kharnov

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2011, 08:39:16 pm »
:tyrant:

tiran hueg

Pazuzu

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2011, 08:44:42 pm »
But is it Procyon hueg?

ok, can you give me the tool thingy app that can code?

kharnov

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2011, 08:46:57 pm »
But is it Procyon hueg?

Nothing is Procyon hueg. Nothing.

1337-Kynes

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2011, 08:47:19 pm »
tiran hueg
Exactly, how would it make sense to take down something that hueg on your own? It would be very silly if tyrants didn't have the power to back up their enormous hitbox.
What do you get. When combine. Deuterium pellet. Terrawatt laser.
And primitive Earth leader from Asian steppes.
ANSWER.
KHAN. FUSION.

Menace13

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2011, 09:26:47 pm »
But is it Procyon hueg?

Nothing is Procyon hueg. Nothing.

Vega.
Specula.

but a small twisty barrel will have small pew pew's, and small pew pew's can hurt mr.tyrant.

Qrntz

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2011, 10:28:19 pm »
But is it Procyon hueg?

Nothing is Procyon hueg. Nothing.

Vega.
Specula.
Jupiter.
Saturn.
Giant Granger.

You make up Qrntz, u always angry, just calmdown. :police:
I am stupid idiot who dares to open mouth and start debating

se7ensnakes

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2011, 07:21:42 am »
here I just finish another game...two tyrants waiting, One human comes out and gets slaughtered, then another and another, despite their huge hit box.  There is no way to communicate quick enough to lead attacks.  A lot of times I "spectate" and i see a few good players outflank a tyrant, but by far tyrants just maul everyone in site and make humans have to camp, until sudden death and then everything is over.  It would be brilliant if you could make the game go back and forth between alien and human until one is defeated by better tactics. 

jm82792

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2011, 07:37:13 am »
No tyrants are VERY subjected to their environment.
If they are in a map with tons of hallways that are short, blind corners and such then they will more then likely own.
Long hallways, open spaces and such will make them die quick.
If the maps has tons of short runs that rants love then I keep with a group,
be defensive or stay in areas where I can have a decent chance of killing them.


If the humans dont do an early attack they cannot win.  they will get stuck in their own base because one human cannot overcome a tyrant in a small hall, unless the tyrant is a newbie.  The only way that humans could overcome a tyrant in a hall is to go in groups but there is no communication fast enough to do that effectively.  All you need is two expert Tyrants and the whole game is over, despite how good two humans may be. This happens time and time again.  Humans can only camp until sudden death and then game is over. How long can you flank a tyrant in a small hall?  the luci weapon is too awkward, the primarily weapon should be shifted to the secondary weapon because it is faster.  The luci takes a long time to master.  Most people just play the game, they dont want to spend months or even years mastering a weapon.  This is after all a game. Why a luci over a missile fire?  A bazooka or RPG?  It would be easier for a newbie to master.  The luci is way too awkward.

Thoth

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2011, 08:14:40 am »
unless the tyrant is a newbie. 
Any alien class or human weapon can be considered "over-powered" if it's in control of a good player. So I might as well say that the  :granger: is over-powered with it's very menacing slash.

  The only way that humans could overcome a tyrant in a hall is to go in groups but there is no communication fast enough to do that effectively. 

I'm pretty sure that even at s1 vs s1 humans still have to move in groups. Same as  :dretch: s.

All you need is two expert Tyrants and the whole game is over
Same with advanced Marauders. Same with battle suits that rush the alien base.

Why dumb down the tyrant???
:tyrant:

tiran hueg

So it's power makes sense. It's called a tyrant for a reason.
guys...GUYS

KillerWhale

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2011, 09:15:10 am »
I don't think Tyrants have too much power, but I do think there is plenty wrong with them.

The Tyrant in its current state just feels bad. It feels bad to play as, and it feels bad to fight against.

When playing as the Tyrant, you have to deal with a charge that is mushy/slippery and has no real confirmation of damage.
When playing against the Tyrant, you have to worry about that Tyrant that is running away from you all of a sudden pulling a 180 and instakilling you by tapping your foot even though you are wearing a battlesuit.

vcxzet

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2011, 12:52:02 pm »
even though you are wearing a battlesuit.
they manufacture those in china from lead

se7ensnakes

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2011, 03:38:16 pm »
I hardly ever bother with a battlesuit, Just a helmet, armor and shotgun.  I dont see the difference worth spending your time at the armoury, trying to pick and choose.

Saliva

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2011, 05:28:33 pm »
The tyrant does have too much power in corridors where it can kill even groups of humans easily with a charge. Something should be done about the near instant kill ability it has even against battlesuits in that situation. Charge should be worth using but not kill that fast.

One way to fix it would be to reduce the damage charge does against a human who is against an obstacle but try to keep charge damage otherwise intact. I don't think it's game breaking though because most players don't know how to use charge properly and it's only specific parts of the map tyrants are that powerful.

Dracone

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2011, 06:25:13 pm »
Just another note on its charge being OP in some ways: I think you can charge someone who is on top of you if you look up at them. Might have to test. I do know that someone who is up in the air can still be charged, sort of like you "ram" them with your head.
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RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2011, 10:36:50 pm »

The humans do have too much power in corridors where they can kill even groups of aliens easily by blindly spamming mouse 1. Something should be done about the near instant kill ability it has even against tyrants in that situation.


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Plague Bringer

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2011, 06:07:54 am »
Location, location, location.

We all know that certain classes and equipment cater to certain maps. Karith can be a jettard haven due to it's openness, and tighter maps favor aliens. Most of the default maps are pretty well balanced, but some maps can tip the balance so far in favor for one team that a certain class or equip combo can seem imba or OP. Still, though, it's ridiculous to think that X class or Y equip is OP just because on Z map it's super effective (especially if Z map is non-default). Also, I think you're not putting enough weight on human error. I can dance with rants; sure it's difficult and I'm out of practice, but I can dance with them, and when I fuck up I know it's because (most of the time) I fucked up, and not because the rant had a huge terrain advantage.
U R A Q T

UniqPhoeniX

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2011, 01:23:51 pm »
IMO rant trample/charge is WAY overpowered, up to 1110 dps (theoretically able to kill up to 6 bsuits in the 3 seconds of trample) and it's best in the locations where humans are already weaker. However, at the same time, if the rant misses, it can't escape and will usually die quite quickly. IMO trample should be completely redone. No weapon/ability should be half as powerful in ANY location/environment.

And I call BS on anyone claiming to be able to dodge the trample of a very good player in a small corridor. It can't be done. If you have 100 ping you could be half dead before you even know the rant turned 180 degrees and started trampling. 100ms later you will be dead.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 01:28:15 pm by UniqPhoeniX »

KillerWhale

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2011, 08:23:11 pm »
IMO rant trample/charge is WAY overpowered, up to 1110 dps (theoretically able to kill up to 6 bsuits in the 3 seconds of trample) and it's best in the locations where humans are already weaker. However, at the same time, if the rant misses, it can't escape and will usually die quite quickly. IMO trample should be completely redone. No weapon/ability should be half as powerful in ANY location/environment.

And I call BS on anyone claiming to be able to dodge the trample of a very good player in a small corridor. It can't be done. If you have 100 ping you could be half dead before you even know the rant turned 180 degrees and started trampling. 100ms later you will be dead.

Exactly this.

I think an excellent way to fix trample is to limit your turning radius while charging/trampling.
If you turn >90°, it should cancel the trample or charge. I think that would fix many of the problems with fighting against trample, but it still doesn't fix the fact that trampling as a tyrant feels dumb and has no indicator of whether you're doing it right besides the human dying when you are doing it right.

I think that sentence is a little recursive, but, the point stands!

Dracone

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2011, 08:42:05 pm »
I think that it shouldn't work unless the human is on the ground. Against sloped walls, the rant will throw you into the air and then continue to trample you. It's too ridiculously easy to hit with it, and what I just mentioned is just one example of this.

I suppose limiting turning radius would be alright, but it's also used for escaping. Whales' idea of ">90 degrees canceling charge" might work just fine though.
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Tip 4 baslick guiz: Make sure you get near them bc u can stiky them i think its a bug lolz. but dont tell 2 many ppl shh.
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UniqPhoeniX

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2011, 10:11:42 pm »
But rants could still turn 180 degrees and THEN start charging.

Dracone

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2011, 10:25:59 pm »
That's different though, it takes time to charge something that will do the crazy damage to anything with armor. The problem is a rant charging then doing a 180 as soon as they release.

But there are still issues. I'm pretty certain I've been bumped into by a charging rant while wearing a battlesuit and taken 40 damage, just from a split second of being hit. That shouldn't do slash damage.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 07:21:08 pm by Dracone »
Quote from: St. Anger
Tip 4 baslick guiz: Make sure you get near them bc u can stiky them i think its a bug lolz. but dont tell 2 many ppl shh.
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RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2011, 05:29:10 pm »
IMO rant trample/charge is WAY overpowered, up to 1110 dps (theoretically able to kill up to 6 bsuits in the 3 seconds of trample) and it's best in the locations where humans are already weaker. However, at the same time, if the rant misses, it can't escape and will usually die quite quickly. IMO trample should be completely redone. No weapon/ability should be half as powerful in ANY location/environment.

And I call BS on anyone claiming to be able to dodge the trample of a very good player in a small corridor. It can't be done. If you have 100 ping you could be half dead before you even know the rant turned 180 degrees and started trampling. 100ms later you will be dead.

Exactly this.

I think an excellent way to fix trample is to limit your turning radius while charging/trampling.
If you turn >90°, it should cancel the trample or charge. I think that would fix many of the problems with fighting against trample, but it still doesn't fix the fact that trampling as a tyrant feels dumb and has no indicator of whether you're doing it right besides the human dying when you are doing it right.

I think that sentence is a little recursive, but, the point stands!

ok, in return, you must accept a delay on luci secondary after a primary shot, and vice versa.  wanna know how to kill a rant in a tight halway?

dodge back 3 times, fire 2 charged luci shots and 3 secondary immediately after those.  dead rant and you are untouched.

dont accept my previous suggestion as serious.  humans, ALL humans have a big advantage over almost all aliens.  we must get close, you have range. play your strength instead of ours, and watch your complaints evaporate.

i've actually been thinking the larger aliens could stand for a redo.... instead of truckloads of HP, how about lessened HP but some armor? you could then designate certain weapons as "armor piercing" or "armor deflected".  us aliens dont (to my knowledge) have location based damage.  shooting us from any direction on any part of our hitbox does the same damage, unlike you over-evolved gorillas.  we pretty much must get headshots or else we take too long to make the kill and the target or his backup kills us. 

i'm not suggesting anything too complex or anything, just a slight HP reduction in, say, mara and above (bigger as you get bigger) and a bit of armor in return.
if nothing else, it'd be something fun to test out for a couple of weeks.

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Dracone

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2011, 07:49:05 pm »
ok, in return, you must accept a delay on luci secondary after a primary shot, and vice versa.  wanna know how to kill a rant in a tight halway?

dodge back 3 times, fire 2 charged luci shots and 3 secondary immediately after those.  dead rant and you are untouched.

dont accept my previous suggestion as serious.  humans, ALL humans have a big advantage over almost all aliens.  we must get close, you have range. play your strength instead of ours, and watch your complaints evaporate.

If that "suggestion" isn't serious (and I would hope that it truly isn't because it's flawed as fuck in the scope of the game's objective), then you essentially just said nothing. It's a bad example for this topic's subject.

However, it is a decent example of what has already been discussed in other topics, how ridiculously overpowered dodge is at distancing the humans. As I said in that topic, you can actually exploit an enemy goon's pounce so that you gain further distance.

But the topic here is rant, and the example of dodging backwards three times is terrible, because only a shitty rant will fall for that. The true problem with fighting rants is now that human players are immensely limited in their ability to get to the alien base. If you gain that much distance from a rant, it's not unlikely that he will turn and run back to his base, which only complicates your problems on the human team, since you want the aliens out of their base (unless someone shitty built in window room or something like that) or poor and lacking in higher alien classes. Otherwise, rushes are very likely to fail.

On the other side of this, the aliens don't really have to worry about how many humans are camping in their base when they have a decent amount of rants, because rants push everything out of the way. They can charge right into the enemy base and do damage, provided it's reachable for them. It's not nearly as easy for heavily-equipped humans since rants are too big to get around on their way to the alien base.

The only thing a human team in this situation can really do is attempt to kill the rants and drain evos (which smart alien players will avoid, knowing what the human plan is), or full-on rush. While a hardcore rush might take out a lot of aliens as a result of aliens being too big to fit all their forces into most individual areas, and it might hit their base hard, the human base becomes extremely vulnerable here, and it doesn't take nearly as long for a group of aliens to GG the humans as it does for a group of humans being harassed in the alien base to take their enemies out, regardless of how good the human base is since it's a GROUP of aliens; defenses can't shoot at more than one alien at once, so rants are going to be pretty damn sure of themselves in their destructive potential.

Also, if you split up your human group to close the aliens in when you rush, it's more than likely that each group will die looking pretty silly. Let's use 6v6 as an example: 6 tyrants against 6 chainsuits. A full on 6 chainsuit rush on a decent map will just kill all rants in the path to the alien base, the reason being the inability of large aliens to push a large group of themselves into an area in one direction effectively. However, if you cut that in half so that there's 3v3s on two different fronts, the aliens become more able to push these smaller groups onto the smaller human groups, thus making it even less likely that the humans would succeed.

Overall, there's some points on tyrant in everything I just talked about, and there's points on the game in general. An off topic note in relation to RAKninja-Decepticon's words is: Don't start shit about the human's being able to outrange the aliens, because it really doesn't mean shit when it comes down to the endgame.
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Tip 4 baslick guiz: Make sure you get near them bc u can stiky them i think its a bug lolz. but dont tell 2 many ppl shh.
Quote from: dobruiyyk
It's possible, your descendant will never see the sun because our species is gonna extinct in nearest future. So you better unstick from your computer and find a girl to make a child with!

se7ensnakes

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Re: Are Tyrants too powerful?
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2011, 08:26:58 pm »
Not true.  In Sv1 the humans and the aliens are correctly matched.  either the dretch or the goon could go down with one human and a weapon.  Not true for a tyrant in a battlesuit and a chaingun or even a luci.  I have yet to see a battlesuit win over a tyrant match one on one, unless the tyrant is incomparable.  Please give an altenate to the extremely awkward luci. Luci are useless for a melee.  it is more of a weapon to destroy the other base.  The worse thing i see is humans trying to defend the base with a luci.  They end up destroying their own base trying to shoot an attacker in their own base.