Recent changes concerning mara zap

[Tremulant]

In 118 games (recorded for balance data) with these changes, aliens win 62.7% of the time, compared to 58.9% of the time in the 6803 games prior. That is a difference of 4-5 more alien wins in the same period, which is not compelling; a larger difference could easily be accounted for by people temporarily preferring aliens to see if they notice/dis-/like the differences.

It is my understanding that there will almost definitely be at least one more balance phase after this one, so I would not be terribly surprised if that came sooner rather than later. However, balancing for a change that so many people believe makes a large impact without sufficient data to back that up is a game in futility, so things will probably stay how they are for at least a while longer.

*Snip rantings of an egotist*

I highly sympathize with this. This is an open source game, not the product of a professional studio. You will never be able to balance the game to your satisfaction simply because the teams are different. Relying on statistics only digs you further into the hole: for instance, maps have a consequential effect of their own on how a team performs. Think qualitatively. Fixing by means of statistics leads to a game with 10 classes and 10 weapons and only 1 of each ever being used. Game needs to be playable, not 50/50 fair based on games played early in its history by people who don't understand it.

Do you actually play trem, have you used marazap extensively pre and post-fix, do you realise that these demands for marazap to be nerfed are nothing but the kneejerk reactions of a few long-term community trolls who've been putting some serious effort into attempting to prove that marazap has suddenly become OP, but failing?

[FreaK]

In 118 games (recorded for balance data) with these changes, aliens win 62.7% of the time, compared to 58.9% of the time in the 6803 games prior. That is a difference of 4-5 more alien wins in the same period, which is not compelling; a larger difference could easily be accounted for by people temporarily preferring aliens to see if they notice/dis-/like the differences.

It is my understanding that there will almost definitely be at least one more balance phase after this one, so I would not be terribly surprised if that came sooner rather than later. However, balancing for a change that so many people believe makes a large impact without sufficient data to back that up is a game in futility, so things will probably stay how they are for at least a while longer.

Should just lock this thread, no point for it anymore.

*Snip rantings of an egotist*

I highly sympathize with this. This is an open source game, not the product of a professional studio. You will never be able to balance the game to your satisfaction simply because the teams are different. Relying on statistics only digs you further into the hole: for instance, maps have a consequential effect of their own on how a team performs. Think qualitatively. Fixing by means of statistics leads to a game with 10 classes and 10 weapons and only 1 of each ever being used. Game needs to be playable, not 50/50 fair based on games played early in its history by people who don't understand it.

Do you actually play trem, have you used marazap extensively pre and post-fix, do you realise that these demands for marazap to be nerfed are nothing but the kneejerk reactions of a few long-term community trolls who've been putting some serious effort into attempting to prove that marazap has suddenly become OP, but failing?

You out of all people to call anyone a troll is hilarious. When i first made this post, i just wanted to state my opinion on the new marazap and generate some feedback. I guess me saying that mara zap is strong this patch offends some people apparently. This further proves there is no point to give any feedback to this community, this game is dieing and will never grow for a few reasons.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

i revise my opinion.  new marazap has humans so scared they continiously puss out and camp even harder than before.

or, better idea, dont change marazap but say you did.  watch the posts roll in about how much more balanced it is.

[FreaK]

i revise my opinion.  new marazap has humans so scared they continiously puss out and camp even harder than before.

or, better idea, dont change marazap but say you did.  watch the posts roll in about how much more balanced it is.

The funny thing is that would probably work considering how stupid the population of tremulous is.

[Tremulant]

You out of all people to call anyone a troll is hilarious. When i first made this post, i just wanted to state my opinion on the new marazap and generate some feedback. I guess me saying that mara zap is strong this patch offends some people apparently. This further proves there is no point to give any feedback to this community, this game is dieing and will never grow for a few reasons.

You cried ZOMG CHANGES IT BAKS NAO!!1!, we all heard you, i think the devs did too, one would imagine that they'd like to see what kind of real world effect the changes have, rather than pandering to you whenever you get a bit noisy. It may well turn out to be somewhat op, in which case they'll change things, but you and your xenocidal puppets are going to have to calm down and wait.

[Norfenstein]

You see, I perceive that Marauder Zap is overpowered because I've experienced it first hand, witnessed 16+ games none lasting longer 10 minutes because of this as did many of the other players complaining in this thread. So the whole "let's wait for more evidence to support these claims" talk is just you not willing to admit you made a mistake by letting this happen

Seeing a few matches is hardly enough to give a valid opinion on the balance of something. Many of the people complaining and wanting it to be nerfed played dozens of games last night

I don't see why you feel the need to wait longer if a large portion of the community is complaining that this in fact overpowered.

Okay. I just played a series of games too that (despite a few people trying to abuse the zap) were actually perfectly fair and fun. From all the talk in this thread I was expecting the game to be nigh unplayable, but not even one game hinted at the zap being overpowered. My conclusion? That it's too early to draw a conclusion. And that who you're playing with makes an enormous difference. I've been at this for a long time, and I've learned that first impressions of balance changes are more-or-less a toss-up in terms of accuracy. Even a long string of games isn't enough when you're playing with mostly the same group of people the whole time and everyone is still in the process of adjusting.

I don't see why you feel the need to wait longer if a large portion of the community is complaining that this in fact overpowered.

I'm quite willing to believe that we've created a problem, but it's not enough to decide to fix something -- I also have to decide how to fix it so that the solution doesn't cause it's own problems (and if at all possible, addresses the root problem instead of just a highly visible symptom). And that means I have to actually see the problem firsthand.

When's the last time you actually sat down and played Tremulous for a few hours Undeference? The problem with you Developers is you rely too much on "sufficient data" rather than playing the game for yourself and trusting members of the community that have been around for several years

A lot of the community seems to be misinformed about how much importance I place on automatically collected statistics. I decided not to present this set of changes as a whole new "phase" because I feel that we're past the point where graphs and numbers are really of much use. I'm thinking now that we should stop showing these things altogether so people will stop getting the wrong idea -- but then I have no doubt we'd instead be accused of being arbitrary for not relying on any impartial metrics.

The reality is (and I've said this before before) is that that the statistics hardly influence balance decisions at all anymore, aside from helping to validate the conclusions I've already arrived at from firsthand experience and (more and more these days) from listening to the players I've learned to take seriously.

Here's a summary: Whore the Mara. S2? Get ad mara and zap rush. Show him its OP.

No, I agree with Undeference. If you did that, you'd be introducing extra bias into the stats, making the mara zap have more of an effect than it already does.

that didnt work with the flamer.

OhaiReapd is actually close to being right here, but not it's about stats. The quickest way to get a balance issue fixed is to show me, personally, in-game, how abusable something it is. No one did that with the flamer, and since my opinion (formed from copious playtesting) was corroborated by the statistics, I didn't change it any further.

tl;dr;
I played some tonight to test the new zap and I'll play tomorrow too (and more after that I'm sure). I thought the balance before this update was pretty good, so in all likelihood we'll find a way to scale this new, less buggy zap back to the level of the old, unintuitive and broken zap. Can we please stop attacking each other personally over this?

[kharnov]

Can we please stop attacking each other personally over this?

Look at where you're posting that, dude.

[OhaiReapd]

You out of all people to call anyone a troll is hilarious. When i first made this post, i just wanted to state my opinion on the new marazap and generate some feedback. I guess me saying that mara zap is strong this patch offends some people apparently. This further proves there is no point to give any feedback to this community, this game is dieing and will never grow for a few reasons.

Keep telling y'all. It WILL die. Anyone with an opinion is wrong. Especially those who play more than anyone else.

[A Spork]

I don't have a problem with bugfixing, but the range increase is just silly, and […] the fact that zaps no longer cancel each other out

Translation: I have no problem with you fixing bugs as long as they aren't bugs that I like. I'm sure we'll keep that in mind next time.

Not at all what i was trying to say.
Bugfix = good, BUT when the bugfix makes something more powerful than it was previously by a significant margin, then something(AKA the damage values) needs to be changed to put it back where it belongs.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

No one did that with the flamer, and since my opinion (formed from copious playtesting) was corroborated by the statistics, I didn't change it any further.

i think not enough folks did it for long enough.  flamer irritates me almost to the point that MDs do.

what i was getting at was that right after it was buffed there was an outcry that it was OP (albeit a smallish outcry, nothing on the magnitude of this change here).

then everyone adjusted to it, and things quieted down.  i suspect this will be the case in this situation as well.

i would like to see knockback removed from it though.....

[Norfenstein]

Bugfix = good, BUT when the bugfix makes something more powerful than it was previously by a significant margin, then something(AKA the damage values) needs to be changed to put it back where it belongs.

And I would humbly submit that a turnaround time of a week (or even two!) is not unreasonable, and not deserving of people forswearing the entire game in anger.

i think not enough folks did it for long enough.  flamer irritates me almost to the point that MDs do.

It's not like it's too late to convince me. Often times a gameplay problem only manifests in rather particular circumstances, and it's often taken only a single illustrative game to show me what's wrong with something.

[Tremulant]

i think not enough folks did it for long enough.  flamer irritates me almost to the point that MDs do.

Does that mean it's almost as OP as the MD, are you still after an end to one shot dretch kills? The thing i find most difficult to deal with is a skilled goon, so i imagine they're OP too. By the way, did ohaireapd ever get around to proving how OP dodge is?
I will admit that the flamer is a powerful weapon that's quite underused, much as the marazap was before everyone heard how OP it was, and maybe the idea that it was OP came about in the same way(i'm sure we can dredge up the relevant ZOMG threads that followed the update).

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

Does that mean it's almost as OP as the MD, are you still after an end to one shot dretch kills? The thing i find most difficult to deal with is a skilled goon, so i imagine they're OP too.

if you look, i skirted around the edges of the flamer in that thread.  i also suggested removing one hit goon kills.  even though goon costs more than MD.

instant death = no fun. 

i do wish i had the space to record demos though.  it'd be interesting to see thoughts on coordinated flamer rushes in public games.

this is all not really on topic though.  if you like we can continue this discussion in the 1hko thread.

It's not like it's too late to convince me. Often times a gameplay problem only manifests in rather particular circumstances, and it's often taken only a single illustrative game to show me what's wrong with something.

as i mentioned above, i dont have the disk space to record demos.  i'm not sure how i could present evidence to support my sentiment without them.  i guess i can only hope that some clan does a flamer rush while you happen to be playing.

[SirDude]

OK First of all i want i to say i am in no way shape or form the best trem player.
I used to be really good but know i suck comparing myself to then.

But if there is one thing i don't suck at is base building, and I will flamed for this.
I may be one of the best builders for both teams on nearly any map around.

I think most of the issue comes not from the mara zap, but how bases are built.


In 1.1 bases where compact and small so they could deal large amounts of damage to tyrants.


In 1.2 bases are made REALLY spread out only so they can not be raped by a mara zap, usually this doesn't work as planned becuase of lack of space or people filling the gaps.
Repeaters have become much more valuable and encourage making forwards for aggressive play, or to help make bases more spread apart.

The problem with a really spread out base is that avd goons with a long range attack deal with them quickly, or a tyrant with its high hp wont die fast enough. Forwards put pressure on aliens but tends to make the main base more open as everyone goes on the offensive. Mara zap makes any type of compact base out of the question, but even bases that are spread apart far enough to not get chained while still dealing enough damage to keep rants away get chained anyway becuase people fill the gaps.
Not that tyrants are really used for base attacking anyway.

In short Human base building is way to fucking hard.

You cant have a compact base because maras will rape it, you cant have spread out bases as this makes it loose its efficiency towards everything even maras it was meant to defeat becuase players fill in the gaps.
Maps also affect bases, and becuase 1.1 had such a "defined" style of building bases that human base building is made even more of a nightmare as now they also have to fight against the maps old methodology. also becuase of how the mara moves most weapons loose most of their efficiency towards it, and that encourages the mara to always be moving and the zap fits perfectly in line with this. And as turrets have a hard time locking on things close range even more so when they move about really fast, encourages it even moar.


The Mara is in a tricky spot, their is nothing you can change on it without breaking it at this point. So i believe that it would be most wise to do something to human base building.


I Recommend:

Make the Tesla a Lighting rod, any zap that manages to chain to it does no damage at all.
This encourages more compact bases but also makes the tesla more then just that defensive structure that usually goes against the human building code of honor. Turrets have a hard time dealing with anything at close range, and tesla are the exacts opposite they should go hand in hand when building a base.
 
the Defense computer making turret wind up times Zero on everything or only the mara.
Simple, tho it doesn't quite make base building easier it just makes it more forgiving.

"A Expensive turret of some kind that is really good at killing maras by having zero windup time and or a very long range."

I could come up with more radical ideas to fix it like my DC repairs the base based on the damage of it on a whole...


On ending note. When a Bug has to be or turns out it had to be abused/used whether actively or passively to make something balanced means there is a definite issue with something as a whole.

[Volt]

Heres how i'm dealing with this influx of mara zapping



You zap me I zap you back

[OhaiReapd]

What is that rape machine supposed to be?

No one did that with the flamer, and since my opinion (formed from copious playtesting) was corroborated by the statistics, I didn't change it any further.

i think not enough folks did it for long enough.  flamer irritates me almost to the point that MDs do.

what i was getting at was that right after it was buffed there was an outcry that it was OP (albeit a smallish outcry, nothing on the magnitude of this change here).

then everyone adjusted to it, and things quieted down.  i suspect this will be the case in this situation as well.

i would like to see knockback removed from it though.....

Lol, md bothers you? Why? That makes no sense.

[Creative1]

Heres how i'm dealing with this influx of mara zapping



You zap me I zap you back

Omg the perfect solution. Good job Volt! 

[wolfbr]

The Mara is in a tricky spot, their is nothing you can change on it without breaking it at this point. So i believe that it would be most wise to do something to human base building.

the problem is not the zap,the problem is the human base itself, balance the human base, zap is perfect vs humans.
balance the towers to shoot at long distance(with a little inaccuracy), and let the short distance to teslas : )(same for Trappers and acid tubes in alien base)

the turret is one of the few things I do not like the tremulous(short range and very precise,but, 1.2 turrets are a "bit more" fun, stand up time are cool : D..).

like hl2 turrets, something like it can be perfect in tremulous gameplay(but, with less inaccuracy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZVymhgNgn0

[Asvarox]

Maybe it's just the alcohol, but that gave me some laugh

[Menace13]

The previous game, on Niveus…
(Note: many edits have been made. However, from the marazap rush onwards, no kills are omitted, and from intermission onwards, nothing is omitted.)
(Note 2: anything said by a spectator will be [$] instead of the normal S in the brackets due to strikethrough.)

PREPERATION FOR STAGE 2

[A] (=Pk:|Sou Desu Ka?) (Red Elbow): 12k
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Window Room Hall): ADV MARAS MEET DARK STAIRS
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Red Elbow): goons, die and go mara
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Window Room Hall): AT S2
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Red Room): Yes
[A] (DSPro|GT-Heli^+) (Window Room Hall): ok
.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST} was pulse rifled by Norfenstein
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Human Hallway): hs2
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Window Room Hall): DARK STAIRS
[A] (=Pk:|Sou Desu Ka?) (Ledge Room): 2k
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Window Room Hall): ADV MARAS

ALIEN STAGE 2

[A] (UnnamedPlayer) (Crates Room): stairs
[A] (UnnamedPlayer) (Crates Room): inc
[A] ((><)Serendipity) (Red Room): coming
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Stairs Bottom): there
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Stairs Bottom): i'm there ^^
GT-Asvarox was zapped by (><)Serendipity's Marauder
AGIA was zapped by =Pk:|Sou Desu Ka?'s Marauder
clankercrusher was zapped by (><)Serendipity's Marauder
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Stairs Middle): dark stairs clear
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Stairs Middle): come adv amras
[A] ((><)Serendipity) (Stairs Bottom): need basi
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Stairs Bottom): kreadygo
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Stairs Bottom): DARK STAIRS
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Stairs Bottom): CMON
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Stairs Bottom): ALL ADV. MARAUDERS ATTACK!!!
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Stairs Bottom): ALL ADV. MARAUDERS ATTACK!!!
[A] (Michael Bolton aka Jesus) (Stairs Bottom): ALL ADV. MARAUDERS ATTACK!!!

MARAZAP RUSH TIME

(><)Serendipity was mass driven by Sky
moope was grilled by Norfenstein's flamer
=Pk:|Sou Desu Ka? was gunned down by a turret
Benny Lava > was zapped by Michael Bolton aka Jesus's Marauder
.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST} was pulse rifled by AGIA
clankercrusher was zapped by Michael Bolton aka Jesus's Marauder
DSPro|GT-Heli^+ was grilled by Norfenstein's flamer
Michael Bolton aka Jesus was gunned down by a turret
moope was grilled by Norfenstein's flamer
AGIA was zapped by :-*Nate.'s Marauder
><|Ryanw4390+cats was zapped by :-*Nate.'s Marauder
UnnamedPlayer was lasgunned by GT-Asvarox
Norfenstein was bitten by =Pk:|Sou Desu Ka?
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Alien Base): -everything except a bit
Benny Lava > was zapped by :-*Nate.'s Marauder
Cutievampyr was lasgunned by GT-Asvarox
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Alien Base): The enemy is weak! ATTACK!!!
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Alien Base): The enemy is weak! ATTACK!!!
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Alien Base): The enemy is weak! ATTACK!!!
:-*Nate. was gunned down by a turret
GT-Asvarox was zapped by (><)Serendipity's Marauder
Dub was zapped by Michael Bolton aka Jesus's Marauder
Pollastra was gunned down by TEAMMATE Dinner Menu
Michael Bolton aka Jesus was gunned down by Dinner Menu
clankercrusher was zapped by (><)Serendipity's Marauder
moope was toasted by BlackWidow's flamer
AGIA was zapped by (><)Serendipity's Marauder
.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST} was mass driven by Sky
[A] Michael Bolton aka Jesus:  ARE YOU DOWN WITH THE [OPP] MARAZAP?
Cutievampyr was gunned down by a turret
Norfenstein was zapped by (><)Serendipity's Marauder
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Human Base): ENEMY OVERMIND/REACTOR DOWN!
ATTACK!
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Human Base): ENEMY OVERMIND/REACTOR DOWN!
ATTACK!
[A] (.7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}) (Human Base): ENEMY OVERMIND/REACTOR DOWN!
ATTACK!
[H] AGIA: gg
(><)Serendipity was grilled by BlackWidow's flamer
Sky was zapped by :-*Nate.'s Marauder
UnnamedPlayer was lasgunned by GT-Asvarox
Michael Bolton aka Jesus was lasgunned by GT-Asvarox
><|Ryanw4390+cats was zapped by :-*Nate.'s Marauder
Cutievampyr was gunned down by Dinner Menu
Benny Lava > was zapped by moope's Marauder
=Pk:|Sou Desu Ka? was lasgunned by GT-Asvarox
[A] =Pk:|Sou Desu Ka?: lol
:-*Nate. was grilled by BlackWidow's flamer
GT-Asvarox was clawed by (><)Serendipity's Marauder[/color]
DSPro|GT-Heli^+ was machinegunned by Pollastra
[A] DSPro|GT-Heli^+: lol
Dinner Menu was bitten by Michael Bolton aka Jesus
AGIA was zapped by (><)Serendipity's Marauder
Pollastra was zapped by (><)Serendipity's Marauder
[H] Dinner Menu: lol
[A] Cutievampyr: i keep freezing up when i enter the human base
BlackWidow toasted himself
Aliens win
[A] DSPro|GT-Heli^+: mara gazsim
[A] =Pk:|Sou Desu Ka?: gg
[H] Norfenstein: that corner NEVER works
[A] .7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}: gg
[H] ><|Ryanw4390+cats: gg
[A] :-*Nate.: gg
[A] .7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}: <ate the rc
[A] (><)Serendipity: g
[A] Cutievampyr: gg
[H] AGIA: gg
[H] Dinner Menu: awesome rush
[H] Pollastra: hahahahha
[H] ><|Ryanw4390+cats: i dont think that base was the problem
[A] .7th'|Sir|Menace{SST}: ^
[H] ><|Ryanw4390+cats: we can try another one here
[A] (><)Serendipity: i think humans should stop planking
[H] AGIA: base was good
[H] GT-Asvarox: You Too !
[H] ><|Ryanw4390+cats: ill try anywhere you want for a base
[A] Cutievampyr: i want to go to another map
[$] :Nigga^eh: Need better maps for anti-zap bases
[$] :Nigga^eh: !!
[H] ><|Ryanw4390+cats: but that was really spread out and anti mara zap
[A] =Pk:|Sou Desu Ka?: lol!
[A] UnnamedPlayer: planking used to work

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

I'd rather just bring back 1.1 turrets. Or make it faster charge rate, AND then have the dcc make the rets 1.1 rets.

Then we're back to square 1 when it comes to the old style of camping for a half hour during scrims. No.
Defenses should only receive minor bonuses, like a slightly better turn rate, maybe even only on the vertical axis. Any other human bonuses should be applied to weapons or to the humans themselves.

Maybe a choice of two turrets, enable the '1.2' turret at stage two... nah thats a shit idea.

Anyways, what im concerned about is that TYRANTS NO LONGER DO BASE KILLING/RUSHES/WHATEVER.

Seriously, when was the last time you saw a successful tyrant rush a human base without zappers/snipers helping? tyrants don't tank/do the 'tyrant' part anymore. Its just kill whoring.

Make the Tesla a Lighting rod, any zap that manages to chain to it does no damage at all.
This encourages more compact bases but also makes the tesla more then just that defensive structure that usually goes against the human building code of honor. Turrets have a hard time dealing with anything at close range, and tesla are the exacts opposite they should go hand in hand when building a base.

True...

First part about lightning rods: Hell no, how bout the mar's zap gives in 'recovering bp' while healing the tesla? Nah, going too far.


My tip to solve lots of human problems: INCREASE RANGE!

On my custom qvm (1.1), i increased the ret's damage to 8 to get close to gpp's values without spinup, and i increased the range from 300 to 380. IT WORKS EXTREMELY WELL. In fact, goon snipers are complaining that the turret's range is too long. How bout making the range to 350? And make the dcc also increase the tesla's range to cope with 'jump and zap' tactic in atcs.

[Norfenstein]

Posted thoughts on the zap in the other thread. Will wait for more feedback before implementing something.

[jm82792]

Effective Human base building is simple, too may people are 1,1 hard wired.

[Creative1]

Effective Human base building is simple, too may people are 1,1 hard wired.

This is true, if you want your base to last, you need to keep remaking and restructuring it as the aliens stage up. I.e have a good S1 base (rets closer together, trying to keep goons and mara out), then when Aliens reach S2, you wanna try to spread the rets out. However, I found it near impossible to create an S2 base that could could defend from mara zap, so a few humans should try to fill in the space, while the others vigilantly try hard to get S3. Of course, it was like this before, the only thing is it seems even harder when a group of maras come zap, but still isn't much of a big deal. At S3 however, I found it very easy to make a base that kept out both goons and rants, and kept maras from zapping, thanks to the edition of Teslas, which seem to be underused ever since the new mara zap bug fix has been released.

Anyways, I actually like the new fixed zap, and wouldn't mind if it wasn't changed. It'll help humans learn to build, or even attempt to build a base rather than just trying to killwhore.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

At S3 however, I found it very easy to make a base that kept out both goons and rants, and kept maras from zapping, thanks to the edition of Teslas, which seem to be underused ever since the new mara zap bug fix has been released.

Anyways, I actually like the new fixed zap, and wouldn't mind if it wasn't changed. It'll help humans learn to build, or even attempt to build a base rather than just trying to killwhore.

i wonder why no one took the obvious solution.  tesla outranges mara, right?  and pushes the mara back, yes?  so would this not make the tesla a counter for mara+?  i suck as mara, yes, and as a mara, well placed teslas are enough on their own to keep me out of a base, even without defenders.  i have to try to evolve into goon+ or rant to deal with them.

[Asvarox]

1) Tesla doesnt outrange mara (zap-wise)
2) Tesla - s3. Adv. Mara - s2.

[Cadynum]

Effective Human base building is simple, too may people are 1,1 hard wired.

It's harder than you think, a lot harder than in 1.1.

[Creative1]

1) Tesla doesnt outrange mara (zap-wise)
2) Tesla - s3. Adv. Mara - s2.

1) That is why you have to be careful about not overusing the teslas and underusing the rets. Putting them in the right place with a DCC will secure your base for a good while.
2) That's why I said some people would have to stay behind and fill in the small holes of the S2 base.

[A Spork]

filling the holes lets the zap travel further.

[wolfbr]

sometimes I think we talked a lot about balance, but we never talk about adding more things to the game(like a flying/swimmer alien, or a grenade launcher for humans)