Author Topic: Admin Abuse  (Read 27239 times)

Newrant

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Admin Abuse
« on: September 27, 2012, 07:29:20 pm »
Hello

On Official EU Server an admin called Ziggy*Stardust (aka Tremulant.ddos) muted me.
Since he joined the server i have never talked, just said 3 consecutive lol (the spam limit is 3 or more, so it isn't spam, is it?) and he muted me, without saying something to me.

Info:
- Game #22910 Log at 09:54
- Screen http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/adminabuse.jpg/

Undeference

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2012, 04:50:10 am »
Welcome to the forum

Take this as a lesson not to send a single message three times in a second, especially if it has no value whatsoever. You should also know that unless an admin has excessively punished you or appears to be systematically doling out unfair punishments, allegations of "abuse" are unwarranted. That appears to be the case here.
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Ispanico

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2012, 08:41:00 am »
Hi all ,
I'm new too on this forum but i play trem for long times and i'm  friend of newrant ( i was also on EU when admin muted him . He said 3 times (Lol) because i was speaking with that admin about a rule of the server (Is there a rule on EU server which say to DONT SPEAK ITALIAN?????)
I got muted like 4 times for speaking my language but all time i saw other players speak others languages different from english and noone say nothing... Before that admin coming on EU server the others admin never muted me for speaking Ita... so i would like to know if there are a rule or not about this ...

p.s. If is a EU server why people can't speak their languages :(???

thank all, bye.

Nux

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2012, 01:01:54 pm »
One possible reason is under the following player conduct rule:

Quote from: tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=12896.0
2. No Harassment
   No badgering people, no endless complaining, no acting like a baby.

It's hard to enforce this rule if the admin doesn't understand the language you are speaking. It's up to the admin to first ask the player kindly to speak English and then use their judgement on whether the potential for rule breaking is enough cause to mute or whether they should wait until it's clear someone is being harassed.

Newrant

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2012, 01:23:41 pm »
Welcome to the forum

Take this as a lesson not to send a single message three times in a second, especially if it has no value whatsoever. You should also know that unless an admin has excessively punished you or appears to be systematically doling out unfair punishments, allegations of "abuse" are unwarranted. That appears to be the case here.

Mute without warn me to stop "spam"? And without explanation?


Ispanico

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2012, 02:15:27 pm »
mhhh...
1 If is it a rule the admins need to do their job with all languages not only with italians...
2 one time he muted me because i was speaking ita , after 5 min unmuted me ,then i try to speak with he(speaking in ENGLISH) and he muted me again and he said you are annoying .... this isnt abuse?
i dont think we do somethink wrong to speaking another language....

Ingar

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2012, 06:39:56 pm »
English is the official language on both the US and EU servers,
newrant wasn't muted because of spam or language, but because he was making fun of the admin
in an inapproriate moment. While that isn't an offense per se, it's never wise to piss
on a police officer's feet.

That said, I have been on EU this week and the non-english in the public chat has been annoying me. It basicly is a disrespect to players who don't speak your native language, it's just spam.

newrant, ispanico, you shouldn't make a big deal of it. But we'd rather have you talk bad english than something we can't understand. I'd also like to note english is not my native language, but rather my third.




Newrant

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2012, 07:13:18 pm »
newrant wasn't muted because of spam or language, but because he was making fun of the admin

How you can say this?
If I play or I spec someone can't I get some fun? Is a game made for get fun, isn't it?

However if he muted me because "I was making fun of the admin" why he didn't said to me to stop that?

janev

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2012, 10:22:30 pm »
At times like this, I ask myself, WWLD? What would Lava do?

Since nobody else has said it yet I'll play devils advocate.
- Grow some balls and get over it, it was only a MUTE.
- Do not whine on the forums about trivial SHIT
- Don't start nothing, won't be NOTHING.
- Do not fuck with the Tremulant, he is better than YOU.

Like any affront to your person, perceived or otherwise, it is only in your power to govern how you react. You can't control the actions of others, only your own. You can be a little bitch and cry, or you can take it like a man. The actual ill effects wear off quickly but in your mind a fly becomes an elephant. So unfuck yourself.  ;D
Author of "The quick beginner's guide to playing tremulous"
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/dev/humancontroller

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2012, 10:35:33 pm »
newrant wasn't muted because of spam or language, but because he was making fun of the admin

How you can say this?
If I play or I spec someone can't I get some fun? Is a game made for get fun, isn't it?
the server has LOSER admins. solution: don't play on servers with LOSER admins.

ULTRA Random ViruS

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2012, 04:53:19 am »
newrant wasn't muted because of spam or language, but because he was making fun of the admin

How you can say this?
If I play or I spec someone can't I get some fun? Is a game made for get fun, isn't it?
the server has LOSER admins. solution: don't play on servers with LOSER admins.
That'd be every server.
That said, I have been on EU this week and the non-english in the public chat has been annoying me. It basicly is a disrespect to players who don't speak your native language, it's just spam.
Wow. Totally didn't expect this.
I don't think it is 'disrespectful' to talk in different languages. That's kinda being racist no offence. Not to mention that euro is multilangual (however you say that, multi language term)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 11:45:20 am by ULTRA Random ViruS »

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2012, 06:31:21 am »
- Do not fuck with the Tremulant, he is better than YOU.
i agree with you, except for this point.

just how much i disagree with this particular point depends on which context you intend for "better".

skill != special treatment.

no one person is any better or worse than another.
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Cadynum

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2012, 09:10:31 pm »
The rule is English only, and the rule was broken after what was likely several warnings, thus resulting in a mute. If you don't want to get muted the next time, perhaps following the rules will help.

A language is a way to serialize information to text or speech, meaning the word 'racist' cannot be correctly applied to describe any kind of language discrimination.

/dev/humancontroller

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2012, 03:58:58 am »
the server has LOSER admins. solution: don't play on servers with LOSER admins.
That'd be every server.
WRONG. on Amsterdam Unlimited, you are explicitly given trolling permissions, with the restriction that you may not come to the server for the sole purpose of trolling. see the rules info-section on AU.

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2012, 06:08:06 am »
The rule is English only, and the rule was broken after what was likely several warnings, thus resulting in a mute. If you don't want to get muted the next time, perhaps following the rules will help.

A language is a way to serialize information to text or speech, meaning the word 'racist' cannot be correctly applied to describe any kind of language discrimination.
the EU server is english only?

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Ingar

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2012, 08:49:44 am »
Text
* Ingar puts DevHC in a small jar.


newrant wasn't muted because of spam or language, but because he was making fun of the admin

How you can say this?
If I play or I spec someone can't I get some fun? Is a game made for get fun, isn't it?

I'll do all my admin warnings on EU in Dutch, nobody will be able to say they won't know why they got kicked.
Also, you missed an important part of the quote:

While that isn't an offense per se, it's never wise to piss on a police officer's feet.



RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2012, 06:03:37 pm »

I'll do all my admin warnings on EU in Dutch, nobody will be able to say they won't know why they got kicked.
unless they speak a romance language rather than dutch ;D

i demand you do all of your warnings in five languages from here on:

english

dutch

yiddish

mandarin

hindi

this will ensure that everyone actually does understand.



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Nux

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2012, 08:38:34 pm »
That said, I have been on EU this week and the non-english in the public chat has been annoying me. It basicly is a disrespect to players who don't speak your native language, it's just spam.
Wow. Totally didn't expect this.
I don't think it is 'disrespectful' to talk in different languages. That's kinda being racist no offence. Not to mention that euro is multilangual (however you say that, multi language term)

'Multilingual'

I too find it a little disrespectful, at least in person, though I can't be certain if Ingar shares my reasons. The question that naturally comes to mind is "If they are able to speak English, why do they choose not to do so in front of you?". It's easy to come to the conclusion that they wish to exclude you from the conversation, even if that's not the case. If it isn't the case then they would do well not to make it seem like it is and instead speak the majority language if they are able. It's simply a matter of courtesy.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 08:40:37 pm by Nux »

Tremulant

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2012, 03:11:55 am »
Awww, my very own admin abuse thread, guys, you shouldn't have  :'(

It's interesting that the complaints centre around blatant and useless spam, rather than the game logs for the incident that actually sparked the whole issue, when numerous warnings about prattling on in italian, ok, so if i'm honest i actually asked nicely on several occasions for them to stick to english, were given before finally giving up all hope of being listened to and muting the obnoxious and argumentative(very, _very_ slow to get hints, this one) little troll(Ispanico).

Yes, clearly i have a bias against italian because the only language you spoke when i asked you to stick to english, and then finally muted you, was italian, but i didn't mute people on the server for speaking polish the previous day, when i wasn't there, genius.

RAK, i have a feeling that janev wasn't referring to skill.
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RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2012, 06:02:06 am »
Yes, clearly i have a bias against italian because the only language you spoke when i asked you to stick to english, and then finally muted you, was italian, but i didn't mute people on the server for speaking polish the previous day, when i wasn't there, genius.
so EU server is english only?
The question that naturally comes to mind is "If they are able to speak English, why do they choose not to do so in front of you?".
because it may take them longer to form the sentence they want to convey to the person they are talking to, is the first thing that comes to mind.

i cannot speak for others, but it takes me significantly longer to type something in a language i am not fluent in compared to my native english.

i'll be upfront, i dont particularly care about claims of abuse.  i just find it incredibly silly that the eu server is english only when there must be more than 5 languages spoken in the eu.
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ULTRA Random ViruS

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2012, 07:13:17 am »
the server has LOSER admins. solution: don't play on servers with LOSER admins.
That'd be every server.
WRONG. on Amsterdam Unlimited
<600 ping, screw it>

Nux

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2012, 12:48:41 pm »
i just find it incredibly silly that the eu server is english only when there must be more than 5 languages spoken in the eu.

It would seem the United Nations, an organisation with more countries as members than we have regular players and far greater resources at their disposal, feels the need to limit the number of languages it uses in it's meetings.

The point is there's a certain impracticality to trying to maintain order without maintaining a common language. It's tough but then again there are plenty of other places to talk in your native language and it's not as if you could talk to the English speaking players anyway if that was such a problem.

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2012, 06:31:27 pm »
i just find it incredibly silly that the eu server is english only when there must be more than 5 languages spoken in the eu.

It would seem the United Nations, an organisation with more countries as members than we have regular players and far greater resources at their disposal, feels the need to limit the number of languages it uses in it's meetings.

The point is there's a certain impracticality to trying to maintain order without maintaining a common language. It's tough but then again there are plenty of other places to talk in your native language and it's not as if you could talk to the English speaking players anyway if that was such a problem.

at this point in time, do you think we can afford to segregate the community, or reduce potential population by restricting members from their most comfortable language?
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janev

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2012, 05:40:52 pm »
- Do not fuck with the Tremulant, he is better than YOU.
i agree with you, except for this point.

just how much i disagree with this particular point depends on which context you intend for "better".

skill != special treatment.

no one person is any better or worse than another.

While my comment was mostly made in jest I'll stand by it none the less.

Society has many ways of telling us some people are better than others. Take for example how they put women and children first into lifeboats. The logic being that men can't bear children and old people have most of their productive days behind them. Also almost every military in the world consists predominantly of men. Whether you agree with the practice or not such is the custom. Here is one from your side of the pond, I hear felons are not allowed to vote in many states.

Naturally you shouldn't arbitrarily sort people by skin color or socio-economic status, since a man is much more than the color of his skin or the clothes that he wears. Still you can't get around the fact that not all men are equal. They might be born with equal opportunity but the choices they make along the way define their value. Quantifying the worth of a person is difficult, if pressed I would say a mans worth is the value of his future deeds. Insurance agencies do this sort of thing all the time.

Here is a quote from a guy you might know telling people to judge others.
I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
Author of "The quick beginner's guide to playing tremulous"
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RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2012, 09:46:51 pm »
While my comment was mostly made in jest I'll stand by it none the less.

Society has many ways of telling us some people are better than others. Take for example how they put women and children first into lifeboats. The logic being that men can't bear children and old people have most of their productive days behind them. Also almost every military in the world consists predominantly of men. Whether you agree with the practice or not such is the custom. Here is one from your side of the pond, I hear felons are not allowed to vote in many states.

Naturally you shouldn't arbitrarily sort people by skin color or socio-economic status, since a man is much more than the color of his skin or the clothes that he wears. Still you can't get around the fact that not all men are equal. They might be born with equal opportunity but the choices they make along the way define their value. Quantifying the worth of a person is difficult, if pressed I would say a mans worth is the value of his future deeds. Insurance agencies do this sort of thing all the time.

Here is a quote from a guy you might know telling people to judge others.
I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
there is a difference in being better suited for a task, and being an intrinsically "better person" than another.  going along with "women and children first", would it not make sense to also save the elderly males, as they have valuable experience to pass to the young?  would it not make sense to save the "fighting age men" so those women have someone to procreate with?  how about the numerous tasks best suited to a hale and hearty young man?  oh, felons are not allowed to vote in any state, by violating federal law, they are stripped of many rights (which should not be the case after a sentence is served, their "debt to society" should be paid, but i digress)

your second paragraph just described artificial constructs men use to divide themselves.  it is the same as your skin color reference.  is the son of a duke "better" than a commoner by virtue of the accident of his birth?  how can you possibly quantify the future deeds one might do?  that insurance companies do it is of no matter, as insurance is historically one of the dirtiest businesses around.

you seem to misinterpret the quote of dr. king you throw at me.  it is not imploring judgement, but condemning discrimination.  discrimination of the kind you are perpetrating.  just replace "color of their skin" with "how well they are liked".  you like tremulant more than newrant, and thus classify tremulant as better than newrant.  especially shortsighted of you, as you have only been exposed to how either of them represent themselves online, rather than actually knowing the individuals in question, and their histories, accomplishments, etc etc.   you only know a small fraction of either, the fraction they chose to (mis)represent themselves online.

i dont know, perhaps your opinion is some holdover of the mindset having a nobility brings the population of a country.  i dont know you, or your background, so i cannot do much other than make such a superficial speculation.  personally, i am of the opinion that we are all human, and all equally deserving of preservation regardless of any other fact besides our humanity.

this does not mean i do not think misdeeds should not be punished, just that all humans are "worth" the same.  we all have potential.
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janev

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2012, 10:58:10 pm »
Yes! Some food for thought. Good man RAK. We have really gone past the original purpose of this thread so for anyone still reading don't read too much into it, it is no longer about anyone in particular.

By stating the custom, women and children first, I merely meant to illustrate that ranking people is a widely held practice. Sure, everyone has something to contribute, but certain core communal functions are customarily held in higher esteem. As a fighting age male, and eventually an old fart, I don't particularly enjoy the idea of being the one charged with sitting in a foxhole or sinking with the ship. But, it is what it is.

About your duke comment, that is precisely my point. I do not see the wealthy man as inherently better. A man borne to privilege who squanders the opportunity holds little value compared to the self made man who changes the world through his hard work. It is just an legacy difference in the accounting.

Take two men with an equal starting point in life, they are equal in that point, but by the choices they make along the way they become very different men. One consumes his wealth, while the other purchases a chemistry set. One ends up with a nice collection of shoes and the other ends up curing cancer.

I didn't say "I" could rank them, only that it is the best metric I can think of. It is likely this kind of thinking that lies behind the women and children first thing. By getting the young ones (with many years left on the clock to do great things) and the women (who can remarry) out first you get a higher probability of good for the community.

Yes, I was taking dr kings words out of context but were sure to know it so I figured it was ok, the main point he was conveying was of course not to be a racist but the "judged by the content of their character" is still pretty clear. That is what I am getting at. Judge based on the contents of a mans character. That is where you find the difference in value. The content of a mans character could be a very good predictor of future betterness.

FWIW Nobility never played much part in my country.   
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Undeference

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2012, 03:09:35 am »
Take for example how they put women and children first into lifeboats. The logic being that men can't bear children and old people have most of their productive days behind them.
The Titanic was an exception, not the rule
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RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2012, 07:27:24 am »
as one who spent his time in a foxhole, i can also tell you that that expandability is in itself something of "value".  the problem, really, is that all those divisions of esteem are just our social constructs.  they are essentially meaningless.  perhaps my thoughts on the matter are overly influenced by my time in the service.  it was pounded into my head along with the rank structure, that all civilians essentially outranked me.  as i climbed the ranks, i was taught to make the hard kind of decisions you have to make in the military about the value of a man.  who is the most expendable, who do you save when you only have the resources to save a limited number?  who is too important to expose to the line of fire?

the starting point, the deeds, the resources, the position, the legacy of either hods no more or less worth than the other, regardless of the contents of any of those factors.  they are both human.  worth in society does not really mean much.  nothing does other than that simple fact of their humanity.  that really isnt worth much in the grander scheme of things, anyway.  barring disability, disease, or defect, there is little that any one human not capable of doing, compared to another human of the same level of physical development.  we all can learn, and also learn to do.

any individual human is actually of little value.  individual accomplishments can be seen as an eventuality of the life cycle of the society that spawns the development.  or as human society as a whole, for that matter.  but i suppose im now examining the issue from an inappropriate scope.  and even though i seem to hold our society in such low regard, i still feel compassion for my fellow man.  i suppose i would help even the people i hate the most, if life limb or eyesight was at risk.

character is of little importance, for character, like every aspect of human mentality, is mutable.  a "sinner" can reform, a "saint" can backslide.  it amazes me that many self professed christians (in whose religion forgiveness is one of the central tenants) forget this simple fact that i, an agnostic, acknowledge.  every human has the potential to change.  thus, yet again, no man is any better or worse. 

what is a shame is that barely any human realizes their own potential.  especially their potential in groups.  many people take for granted that we were on the moon what, 50 years after the first powered flight?  and that wasent even a significant portion of humanity that accomplished this.  our artificial divisions have held us back for our entire history.  imagine where we'd be, what we'd know, if we hadent wasted so many resources on fighting each other or gaining meaningless status.
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Nux

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2012, 11:28:12 pm »
A point that both of you seem to have missed is that women and children are generally less capable of saving themselves than men and hence why they might be prioritised in a crisis situation: the men can save themselves afterwards. I'd say that makes the men pretty vital indeed.

Any points about the elderly being undervalued, on the other hand, are absolutely valid and it's a sad fact that young people don't generally pay much notice to their situation until they're old enough to appreciate it firsthand.

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Admin Abuse
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2012, 10:30:51 am »
A point that both of you seem to have missed is that women and children are generally less capable of saving themselves than men and hence why they might be prioritised in a crisis situation: the men can save themselves afterwards. I'd say that makes the men pretty vital indeed.

Any points about the elderly being undervalued, on the other hand, are absolutely valid and it's a sad fact that young people don't generally pay much notice to their situation until they're old enough to appreciate it firsthand.
incorrect.  a woman is generally slightly less physically capable than a man, but her mind is just as powerful, especially in this day and age where we acknowledge women even have minds and even strive to educate them.  did you read the link undeference posted?  researchers found education to be a large factor in our modern high female shipwreck survival rate.

children on the other hand are both significantly physically weaker, and not educated in survival.  they are the weakest link, but are in actuality the most important to save, they have the most potential, they are the future of the species.

but yes, depending on another for survival, such as a child does, or women did in times passed, lowers your rate of survival.

if you strip away the rationalization we've given the notion over the ages, you can see the simple pack survival strategy it likely grew from.  in times of danger, the hunters/fighters/fathers defended the young and their caretakers/mothers.  even if the father is killed, the young still has a living caretaker, and astronomically better odds of survival as opposed to having no living caretakers.  you can observe this type of behavior in many large social predators.  i'm fairly sure all the great apes do it as well.

i suppose it is part of growing up, insisting on learning the hard way when your elders try to steer you onto a better course.  perhaps it's part of that "asserting independence" thing?  perhaps the loss of respect for elders is a side effect of population density.  when not all of the old people you know are related to you, it is easier to disrespect or discount them.

and nux, nothing you said refuted "no man is worth any more or any less than another", you just quibbled on an allegorical example ;D
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