Why is the human team so bad?

[sleekslacker]

I must say although I'm not a very good player, I have killed 3 humans with the goon. Goons need few attacks to finish off a non-BS player. In that game I killed the first one by pouncing him and the 2nd one by chomping. I ran back with 80 hp, with the single human following me to finish me off. Round the corner, I stopped and turned back around, pounced (but missed) and chomped him dead. I ran back happily to base with 100 hp.

Just a short story of how a goon can own a number of people at once. Kids, when you see a goon and you don't have a battlesuit, run back as soon as possible. Or camp.

[Stof]

I've seen existential risk take down a group of 4 hummies,

That's just bullshit too.  4 humans with shotties can theoretically insta-gib dragoon in one volley.  It only takes 2 volleys for 2 shotguns to kill a dragoon.

No, that's rather easy. Ambush, headchomp one human before any of them even had the time to shot once and you already are reduced to 3 humans vs 1 goon in close contact. The rest follows.

And before you say that an ambush isn't fair, I'd like to know how humans are supposed to avoid ambushes against aliens with alien radar without camping behind their turrets.

[temple]

I've seen existential risk take down a group of 4 hummies,

That's just bullshit too.  4 humans with shotties can theoretically insta-gib dragoon in one volley.  It only takes 2 volleys for 2 shotguns to kill a dragoon.

No, that's rather easy. Ambush, headchomp one human before any of them even had the time to shot once and you already are reduced to 3 humans vs 1 goon in close contact. The rest follows.

And before you say that an ambush isn't fair, I'd like to know how humans are supposed to avoid ambushes against aliens with alien radar without camping behind their turrets.

How do you get that close to get an instant headchop?  Goon teleport?

Like I said, it takes 2 shotguns 2 volleys to kill a goon outright.  4, 3, 2 shotguns are still very likely to kill or seriously injury the goon.  I'm sure there are camping situations were a goon can 'come out of no where' but realistically, anything can happen.  The goon could be behind the humans or the humans could be behind the goon.  Either way, you can't judge balance based around theoretical ambush situations.  But you can look at the actual DPS values and costs of weapons/classes.

The only time goons can 'rape' is when people DON'T get shotguns.

Really, goons are the workhorse of the alien team.  Goons have to carry aliens to S2 AND S3.  That's why their power is justified.  They have to last 2 stages.  Marauders and basilisks are good but I consider them economy classes (cheap) versus as versitile as dragoon.  Honestly, if basilisks and marauders were better, I could agree with you, but I've already explained why goons > maras in any situation.  Maras are just cheaper, so they better for kamikaze or evo farming than goons.

When humans hit S2, the whole balance of power changes.  Many dragoon 'killers' get ran over.  The real problem with goons is just in S1, goons can rape idiot humans with no light armor and no skills.  But you are trying to nerf or change a class that is basically broken in 1 situation and missing the bigger picture.  Look at the forest, not the trees.

Putting goons in S2 wouldn't change S2 for aliens, it would make going from S1 to S2 a hell of lot harder for aliens.  Geting S3 for aliens wouldn't be any easier but going from S1-S3 would drastically harder.  Over the course of a full game, humans would hit S2 a lot easier and once at S2, humans would go toward S3 at full speed.  That change is an outright advantage for humans beyond anything.

Like I said, if humans had better skills (hard to do) or better weapons (easier to do), aliens in general won't be so dominant.  Goons are only good because people fear them.  Nerfing aliens won't improve human skills, it just forces the aliens to get better.  Buff humans takes nothing from aliens but allows humans to survive long enough to learn skills.

[shadow_archmagi]

*drops shotgun into the armory*

Oops. Perhaps I should... buy it back? How the heck do all those guns fit in there anyway?

[janev]

We've all had strokes of good luck. I doubt you can pull that off everyday. On the other hand, I've seen risk own groups multiple times in a row.

That's just it mantra... You can't base balance on "This player can do this/this one game this player did that so we need to introduce a handicap"...

I've killed 50+ humans in 5 minutes with a goon and dominated a whole 12 player alien team by myself when playing humans... That doesn't make me 1337 it just makes my opponents crap.

The best way to balance the game would be for all the players to grow some cohjones and instead of camping FIGHT.

[Mantra]

Yes, goons ARE better then anything in the game. Goons are VERY fast, they have high hp, high damage, especially for the level where they are. No s1 hummies as any chances against a semi good goon, and if it wasn't for the feeding dretches by that goon, then the goon would, by himself, dominate a team of 6-10 hummies without much trouble, and hit s3 before humans even got enough credits for a shotgun. How many games as it been so far that I've won with 50+ kills and 1-2 death, while my enemies only hit s2 because of the feeding dretches and idiots on my team, and yet I still won. Furthermore, about 5/8 of the games humans won while I was alien, they won because of my feeding teammates.
I have a screeny of a game, where I had 10 kills in 1 min, against s3 humans. Goons are the most versatile alien, as well as the fastest, beside their evolved form.

How do you get that close to get an instant headchop? Goon teleport?

This prooves that you're a brainless moron, if you don't know that goons can pounce, then you shouldn't be posting in this thread.

As for shotguns beating goons, from my 8 months of playing, I've found out that chainguns are much more annoying to kill then shotguns. Especially once humans hit s2. (Mostly caused by the heavy lag chaingun brings around)

Putting goons s2 would actually make aliens going s2 worthwhile. Since right now, no one plays anything but goons, no one gains any skills with maras and lisks, making their adv counterparts useless. The only reason for aliens going s2 is adv granger, which can dish out a base and spam eggs like no tomorow in a small time, and is only useful once humans hit s2. If humans never get s2, no reason for even needing them anyway.

So basically, the only reason NOT to put goon s2, is that you think aliens would become useless without the said units during s1. That just means you can't kill without anything but the said goon. Which means you think any other alien unit is worthless. So you don't want to learn how to use them.
By moving goons to s2, you'd fix many problems.
Simply put, by putting goons s2, you fix these:
-Less humans will camp, since goons are the primary reason humans camp. Getting one hit killed tends to make you want to stick to your base
-Aliens will finally learn some skills beside just using goon
-Going s2 will finally mean something to alien, since it means they finally can one hit kill helmet-less humans

Making humans weapon stronger would most likely tip human power even more, making them nearly invincible. Think about it, if you make shotgun stronger, so as to make killing goons easier, you also make all other alien until easier to kill, effectivelly weakening lisk and maras. Unit that you already think useless, same for most people. Then this would make even more people see them as useless.

Now I bring back from the grave the idea I told TJW back a few months ago, before unlag was released.
-Set back goons to s2
-Give both goons a 50 hp increase

This would make gooning vs s2 a little easier and worthwhile and would make sure s3 goons could actually withstand a fully charged lucy shot.(Any other weapon can easilly kill it after it anyway, just makes them a little more useful other then for sniping)

With this, there is no need to make anything stronger, you're just setting back a unit by one level and increasing its hp by a small amount.

[kozak6]

Humans tend to stage up first.

Putting goons at S2 would greatly shift balance in favor of the human team.

[Bajsefar]

Shotgunners are in my experience the most dangerous weapon you can meet a human with, along with pulse rifles and chainguns.

Seriously, if the chaingun makes you lag (O.o) it's not the problem, but your shitty computer or connection.

And good humans usually do not get surprised at all by goons.

(unless i'm playing the goon, heeeh.)

[Stof]

No, that's rather easy. Ambush, headchomp one human before any of them even had the time to shot once and you already are reduced to 3 humans vs 1 goon in close contact. The rest follows.

And before you say that an ambush isn't fair, I'd like to know how humans are supposed to avoid ambushes against aliens with alien radar without camping behind their turrets.

How do you get that close to get an instant headchop?  Goon teleport?[/quote]
Ambush I've said. Or are you saying humans should never try to attack the alien base during stage 1? As soon as a human team goes out of its base to attack the aliens, each time they pass a corner they might get ambushed.

Like I said, it takes 2 shotguns 2 volleys to kill a goon outright.  4, 3, 2 shotguns are still very likely to kill or seriously injury the goon.  I'm sure there are camping situations were a goon can 'come out of no where' but realistically, anything can happen.  The goon could be behind the humans or the humans could be behind the goon.  Either way, you can't judge balance based around theoretical ambush situations.  But you can look at the actual DPS values and costs of weapons/classes.

There is NOTHING theorical about ambush situations in Trem. They happen all the time when humans attack the aliens. Also, I'm a huge proponent of DPS study, but you have to admit that when a goon decides to attack a team of 4 humans, there is 0 chance the 4 of them will be in situation where they can all attack the goon at the same time. When you attack such formation, you attack from the flank and you do NOT charge in the middle. You attack after a corner when only some of the humans came in LOS with you, you attack from the sides where half the humans would kill their friend before killing you etc...

The only time goons can 'rape' is when people DON'T get shotguns.

I find the situation where 4 humans with shootguns and larmor ambushed by a goon killing the goon but losing two humans in the process disturbing. You cannot call that a victory by a long shot. Humans just lost half their fighting force, two humans lost their equipment ( 220 credits ), goon got 2 points in the process. Such stacked odds ( 4vs1 with equivalent tech and skill ) should NOT have ended in that way, no matter how unfavorable the situation was for the humans.

Really, goons are the workhorse of the alien team.  Goons have to carry aliens to S2 AND S3.
(snip...)

Yeah, basicaly you are saying that all alien forms other than (Adv)Goon and Tyrant are nearly useless. By that mesure, we could nerf or even completly remove anything between dretch and goon with barely any impact on the alien team capacities.

Like I said, if humans had better skills (hard to do) or better weapons (easier to do), aliens in general won't be so dominant.  Goons are only good because people fear them.  Nerfing aliens won't improve human skills, it just forces the aliens to get better.  Buff humans takes nothing from aliens but allows humans to survive long enough to learn skills.

Let me tell you that even you you placed all human weapons at stage 1, I would still continue to use the stage 1 weapons only. The real problem with humans currently isn't the weapon power by far. It's the survivability of the humans themselves that needs improving.

Also on a side note, I'll say again that I agree with you that moving the goon to stage 2 without any other change is probably a bad idea. I just think it has a lot of potential. Maybe buff the basi ( already implemented in the next version it seems ) and the mara at the same time.

[[A]]

with equal skill, if alien take advantage and up some goons, it will be hard for human to attack efficiently, 4 human (with weapon) could be gangbanged by 2-3 goons very fast without casualty in aliens. And, goons are not too crazy to rush a base where there is some good aimers.

Mara and basi are too less-used in s1 and btw, they rox when they are good played, but why a players should use a basi or a mara if he could use a "flying panzer" with 200 hp and instant kill by headchomp(head pounce) ?

My idea is to try a little mod where goon is blocked until alien s2. Normally, aliens will be less "rambos" and human will earn more security and will get out their base more easy.

And, the first team whowill  reach the s2 will really take a advantage.

[janev]

Agreed... If there are as many goons as humans you are pretty much fucked... The thing is it's your own stupid fault if you let them get that many goons at the same time(or if you are stupid enough to put share on).

If you really want a goon nerf disable pouncing and chomping at the same time, delay between pounces, up the evo cost of goons or lower their hp a little in s1... Someone mentioned a lesser s1 helmet without radar. That could also work.

I just can't see any real reason to move goons to s2.... If you can't handle the dretches aliens get bigger badder bugs to play with.. Just like humans get armour and bigger boomsticks. I don't think you can reasonably say that s2 goon= s2 human atm :x

@ eye pouncing doesn't do locational damage it's the same if you pounce someones little toe or their head.

[temple]

I'm just going to leave the goon debate with the comment 'Goons aren't the problem'.  I'll file it in the 'Tremulous myths' section of my mental encyclopedia.

[Huscarl]

The purpose of this thread is not to debate the balance of the game mechanics, but in-part to deal with the issue of why new players are so ignorant in their selection of weaponry.  And then how these poor decisions in weaponry have a negative impact on the performance of the team as a whole.

I believe that if the in-game description included the list of aliens that the weapon is most effective against, new players would be better able to support their team and not be such a heavy burden.

[techhead]

They can fit all that stuff inside the Armory because they utilize a technology similar to telenodes.
Buy something at the Armory and it is an instant mail-order from the nearest munitions factory.
However, the two-way exchange requires that they are powered from both ends in order to operate.

[shadow_archmagi]

I think if there was a tremmy demo, it'd be nice. The ideal thing would be aliens with crude AI, just enough to effectively mimic human MOVEMENT, but they wouldn't attack. They would just run around the simple flat map. Then humans could practice with each gun, aim at moving targets, etc.


Could do a reverse thing with aliens, featuring ground troopers, randomly moving jettroopers, and bsuits.

[Kolaris]

I can easily say an s2 goon = s2 human. Pounce + 2 chomps takes about, what, 2-3 seconds? Thats a dead helmeted human right there.

[shadow_archmagi]

2-3 seconds? I dunno. Generally my battles 1v1 against goons go like this

1. I run past the corner just enough to get a shot off.
2. Goon lunges, and misses. I fire again in the spare second.
3. Goon tries to turn and re-aim, I fire again.
4. Goon finally manages to get in a proper pounce, but just then I hear that "Oh my god i'm DYING" noise
5. Goon runs for it.
6. I chase, and a dretch gets me from behind.

[Ranger]

I can easily say an s2 goon = s2 human. Pounce + 2 chomps takes about, what, 2-3 seconds? Thats a dead helmeted human right there.

You're forgetting that unless a human has a blaster or conkit he's probably going to be hitting the goon that entire 2-3 seconds. If he has a pulse or a shotty one of you one is gonna be dead, and since humans moreoften then not travel in groups, that =dead goon

[Stof]

I can easily say an s2 goon = s2 human. Pounce + 2 chomps takes about, what, 2-3 seconds? Thats a dead helmeted human right there.

You're forgetting that unless a human has a blaster or conkit he's probably going to be hitting the goon that entire 2-3 seconds. If he has a pulse or a shotty one of you one is gonna be dead, and since humans moreoften then not travel in groups, that =dead goon

Sorry but shotgun isn't powerful enouth to kill a goon in 2-3 seconds. Ok, it can be done in exactly 3 seconds from the first shot to the last one but it requires you to know perfectly where and when the goon is coming for that. Also, you'd better not attack before the goon is in close contact or else the shotgun spread will greatly reduce the damage you've done.

Pulse might do it but it still takes more than 2 seconds for that. And you'd better not miss any shot. This somewhat requires the goon to pounce you head on though and once again for you to know perfectly where and when it'll come.

[janev]

Well in 1v1 s2 goon can manage 50/50... but groups of s2 humans own groups of s2 aliens.