Why is the human team so bad?

[[A]]

....

Just a subliminal message during the first lunch : "if you have no enought brain to manage a simple game, go back on cs nap"

Don't joke, weapons are not too complcated, people are just brainless.

Personally i have no problem in humans and i think all people could do the same.

[Rekov]

OK Temple, I definatly think you have some really good ideas here. I cannot think of a solution to the problems I will outline, so i recommend that the game be left as is until an appropriate fix can be found.

Here are my thoughts:
- Your assesment of the weapons, especially the lucifer cannon and flamethrower. I would like to add however, that after testing some of these weapons on various servers myself that i am guessing they were designed to function in an FF off environment. The "lucy spam" tactic pops up over and over again, and when FF is off a flamer is the best anti dretch I know.
- Turrets pose a problem. They are too powerfull, but a human base cannot survive without them. The key difference in my mind between the bases of the two teams is upkeep. An alien base regenerates, and quite frankly doesnt need to much defense. Turrets are vital for defending against stage 2 and 3 aliens. Dragoons in stage one also can easily whipe out a base that has no turrets. The goon pounces in, kill in one hit, and jumps back out. Turrets offer some defense. Turrets are problematic in that a human base cannot be attacked by dretches or basalisks. Marauders have a really hard time at it.
-  I would like to point out that it is the fact that tremulous is balanced that  makes it such a popular game. Most balanced games have two teams, each with the same weapons and different skins and names on them. Tremulous offers two unique teams, and that must be preserved at all costs.
-   I think that the problem needs to be addressed on the Alien team. The only innovative features on the alien team are the basalisk gas cloud (i almost never see this used), the marauder lightning (works, but to what extent?), and the goon's snipe. Each of these creatures also has the effective same basic attack. Sure the goon can pounce, the tyrant can charge, and the basalisk can hold, but the same basic mechanism of touch the target while clicking is throughout. I dont have any ideas of the top of my head, but give the alien team more diversity.

[jal]

Why players are better in alien ?

They're not?

[n00b pl0x]

OK Temple, I definatly think you have some really good ideas here. I cannot think of a solution to the problems I will outline, so i recommend that the game be left as is until an appropriate fix can be found.

Here are my thoughts:
- Your assesment of the weapons, especially the lucifer cannon and flamethrower. I would like to add however, that after testing some of these weapons on various servers myself that i am guessing they were designed to function in an FF off environment. The "lucy spam" tactic pops up over and over again, and when FF is off a flamer is the best anti dretch I know.
- Turrets pose a problem. They are too powerfull, but a human base cannot survive without them. The key difference in my mind between the bases of the two teams is upkeep. An alien base regenerates, and quite frankly doesnt need to much defense. Turrets are vital for defending against stage 2 and 3 aliens. Dragoons in stage one also can easily whipe out a base that has no turrets. The goon pounces in, kill in one hit, and jumps back out. Turrets offer some defense. Turrets are problematic in that a human base cannot be attacked by dretches or basalisks. Marauders have a really hard time at it.
-  I would like to point out that it is the fact that tremulous is balanced that  makes it such a popular game. Most balanced games have two teams, each with the same weapons and different skins and names on them. Tremulous offers two unique teams, and that must be preserved at all costs.
-   I think that the problem needs to be addressed on the Alien team. The only innovative features on the alien team are the basalisk gas cloud (i almost never see this used), the marauder lightning (works, but to what extent?), and the goon's snipe. Each of these creatures also has the effective same basic attack. Sure the goon can pounce, the tyrant can charge, and the basalisk can hold, but the same basic mechanism of touch the target while clicking is throughout. I dont have any ideas of the top of my head, but give the alien team more diversity.

Here are my thoughts:
-Dont speak. You used 1000 words and just sat there talking in circles making no real decent comments.
-Of course certain weapons are better for ff off, just like some are better for tyrants than dretches
-No. When have you ever seen a naked rifle take out an alien base?
-tell me how humans are more innovative than aliens.

[techhead]

If there is no-one defending, a naked rifle can indeed take out the Alien base.
However, he will probably run out of ammo before he is done, forcing him to finish the job with a blaster.

[Stof]

If there is no-one defending, a naked rifle can indeed take out the Alien base.
However, he will probably run out of ammo before he is done, forcing him to finish the job with a blaster.

He can do that easly provided there isn't more than 3 eggs to kill

Once the eggs are all done for, aliens can have their OM it won't help them if they don't have a granger somewhere.

[vcxzet]

bald?

[Rekov]

Here are my thoughts:
-Dont speak. You used 376* words and just sat there talking in circles making no real decent comments.
-Of course certain weapons are better for ff off, just like some are better for tyrants than dretches
-No. When have you ever seen a naked rifle take out an alien base?
-tell me how humans are more innovative than aliens.

*fixed
Here are my thoughts, addressing yours in order:
-Keep your vile comments in the CS forums
-Duh, so whats your problem?
-Yes, I have seen two riflemen take out an alien base, because their guns fire farther than an acid tube. This is a greater danger at the start of the game.
-Because humans are not just get close and click click click.

[AKAnotu]

Here are my thoughts:
-Dont speak. You used 376* words and just sat there talking in circles making no real decent comments.
-Of course certain weapons are better for ff off, just like some are better for tyrants than dretches
-No. When have you ever seen a naked rifle take out an alien base?
-tell me how humans are more innovative than aliens.

*fixed
-Because humans are not just get close and click click click.

+1

[FooBar]

I'm not in a clan, so I have yet to see a game between two teams that are honestly equal in skill.

In public server games, my feeling is that new players are attracted to the human team because the play mechanics are more familiar and the learning curve is easier.  More skilled players tend to "graduate" to the aliens.

Unfortunately, this means that on average, the human team is composed of less skilled players.  Less skill = stacked teams = aliens win.

I'm not dissing on newbies here; I'm just saying it's human nature to go with what you're familiar with.  Most people who have played FPS games will play humans before they play aliens, because it's more familiar to them.

Honestly, I think Tremulous is an amazingly balanced game.  Unless you want to UN-balance it in response to human nature, I think it's pretty good as-is.

[temple]

Unless you want to UN-balance it in response to human nature, I think it's pretty good as-is.

I'm thinking along the lines of unbalancing the Human team.  

My whole point is if you take newbie#1 and put him on an alien team and a human team...newbie#1 will be more helpful and deadly as an alien.  Especially if the newbie gets a tyrant or advanced goon.  Take the same newbie and give him a battle suit and lucifier cannon and he isn't that helpful, regardless of the weapons.

[n00b pl0x]

Here are my thoughts:
-Dont speak. You used 376* words and just sat there talking in circles making no real decent comments.
-Of course certain weapons are better for ff off, just like some are better for tyrants than dretches
-No. When have you ever seen a naked rifle take out an alien base?
-tell me how humans are more innovative than aliens.

*fixed
Here are my thoughts, addressing yours in order:
-Keep your vile comments in the CS forums
-Duh, so whats your problem?
-Yes, I have seen two riflemen take out an alien base, because their guns fire farther than an acid tube. This is a greater danger at the start of the game.
-Because humans are not just get close and click click click.

i will keep them here, tyvm
my problem is you point out luci and flamer as weapons that suck with ff on, when you probably just shouldnt use them if its on, and youre going to be fighting near your team/structures. its like using psaw against an adv mara
yes, and the two riflemen were much more skilled than the aliens
humans have to aim...aliens have to get close and click. thats not how you describe innovative. innovative is the different weapons/classes.

[kozak6]

Unless you want to UN-balance it in response to human nature, I think it's pretty good as-is.

I'm thinking along the lines of unbalancing the Human team.  

My whole point is if you take newbie#1 and put him on an alien team and a human team...newbie#1 will be more helpful and deadly as an alien.  Especially if the newbie gets a tyrant or advanced goon.  Take the same newbie and give him a battle suit and lucifier cannon and he isn't that helpful, regardless of the weapons.

I'm sorry, but that's completely wrong.

The favorite attacking method of new alien players, as the dretch, is to run on the floor, in a straight line, directly at a human.

The adv dragoon and tyrant are tricky because you have to know how to attack and when to escape, but the new alien player can only afford one if he goes AFK and doesn't die for 8 or 10 minutes.

[temple]

I'm sorry, but that's completely wrong.

The favorite attacking method of new alien players, as the dretch, is to run on the floor, in a straight line, directly at a human.

The adv dragoon and tyrant are tricky because you have to know how to attack and when to escape, but the new alien player can only afford one if he goes AFK and doesn't die for 8 or 10 minutes.

and humans don't feed?  The only saving grace of the human team are turrets (which I pointed out earlier) when it comes to having begineers.  However, no matter what stage the humans are, feeding/camping humans still can't take out a base.

[Mispeled]

The game being balanced for newbies is an entirely different thing from it being balanced for experienced players.

[DASPRiD]

-No. When have you ever seen a naked rifle take out an alien base?

Once, it was me  

[Plague Bringer]

...newbie#1 will be more helpful and deadly as an alien.  Especially if the newbie gets a tyrant or advanced goon. ...humans and he isnt so helpful.

I agree with kozak6, this is, for the most part, incorrect. if you take [pro]hummie and newbie#1 and put them on human team, against [pro]alien and newbie#2 on the alien team, the humans will win, so long as they have communication. As I said in a post regarding this topic (might've been a different thread though...) humans lack the coordination and communication necesary to win most games. Humans are much, much more powerful then aliens, in S2, humans can easily fight off S3 aliens, so long as they know what's coming to attack them and which way it's coming from. A chainsuit relies on a human with a helmet to survive to kill more then one tyrant, they have the protection of a battlesuit and the radar of a helmet. Working together, humans will win nearly all games.

A chaingun and even a 150 credit shotgun (both S1 weapons, might I add) is better at defending a base from goons or tyrants than a luci or a flamer. Its hard to learn that without knowing the underlying mechanics of the game. Its not obvious. For aliens, its is obvious that advanced goons and tyrants are better than basiliisks or maraders. And hell, its isn't that hard to play the S3 aliens, anyone can snipe or swipe. But compare that to using a lucifier cannon well or a Battlesuit/painsaw/grenade rush and you should be able to agree that humans require something more at the same stage as aliens.

I was playing in FunZone, and an {mDc} clan member missed his first three barbs in sniping a turret, this proves that not everyone can snipe. Also, although the tyrant has an amazing forward range, a battlesuit can easily strafe around the tyrant with a chaingun and take him out, and this is even easier to do with an advanced goon. Regarding your statement about dregoons and tyrants "obviously" being better then marauders or basilisks, I have taken out more battlesuits with an advanced marauder then with a tyrant or goon, so no, the tyrant or goon is not better then a marauder. I do, however, agree that newbies will be confused for a moment about which weapon to choose when playing S3 humans, but that confusion quickly dissapears after they see a tyrant chaingunned by a chainsuit, or an army of dretches lucified by a luci+batt+larmor+helmet. Newbies quickly learn that "Incoming!" binds followed by a description of what aliens and from which directions they are coming from can save a base.

However, no matter what stage the humans are, feeding/camping humans still can't take out a base.

Camping is a legitimate tactic when humans can take out the alien base, but need to get rid of the defenders. A camping human team can quikly run the aliens dry of evos and then launch a lucifer/flamer strike against the alien base only having to worry about dretches, so you see, camping humans can, indeed take out a base, they camp until there is no alien defence to worry about.

[temple]

Plague Bringer
I agree with kozak6, this is, for the most part, incorrect. if you take [pro]hummie and newbie#1 and put them on human team, against [pro]alien and newbie#2 on the alien team, the humans will win, so long as they have communication. As I said in a post regarding this topic (might've been a different thread though...) humans lack the coordination
and communication necesary to win most games. Humans are much, much more powerful then aliens, in S2, humans can easily fight off S3 aliens, so long as they know what's coming to attack them and which way it's coming from. A chainsuit relies on a human with a helmet to survive to kill more then one tyrant, they have the protection of a battlesuit and the radar of a helmet. Working together, humans will win nearly all games.


Take an different example.  Feed a beginner credits for a BS/Luci combo and take him with you to the alien base in S3.  Then take the same beginner and feed him 5 evos for a Tyrant and take him to the human base.  Which team will the beginner be more helpful for?  On humans, I doubt the beginner would even make it past the base door, if to the base at all.  



I was playing in FunZone, and an {mDc} clan member missed his first three barbs in sniping a turret, this proves that not everyone can snipe. Also, although the tyrant has an amazing forward range, a battlesuit can easily strafe around the tyrant with a chaingun and take him out, and this is even easier to do with an advanced goon. Regarding your statement about dregoons and tyrants "obviously" being better then marauders or basilisks, I have taken out more battlesuits with an advanced marauder then with a tyrant or goon, so no, the tyrant or goon is not better then a marauder. I do, however, agree that newbies will be confused for a moment about which weapon to choose when playing S3 humans, but that confusion quickly dissapears after they see a tyrant chaingunned by a chainsuit, or an army of dretches lucified by a luci+batt+larmor+helmet. Newbies quickly learn that "Incoming!" binds followed by a description of what aliens and from which directions they are coming from can save a base. That being said, humans do greatly rely on communication to win games. and humans don't feed? The only saving grace of the human team are turrets (which I pointed out earlier) when it comes to having begineers.


I miss shots with advanced goon all the time.  No cross hair and heavy gravity influence on shots.  But give me or anyone enough time to compensate and you snipe anything in the base.  Most of the time, people miss because they are trying to snipe less than obvious stuff, like an armory behind turrets, rather taking the easy shot at turrets.

A battle suit can not easily strafing around a tyrant.  The only human player that can out spin me is Yahoo and that's not even 100%.  Its lag, son.  

You are complete lying asshole if you tell me that a marauder is better than a tyrant or an advanced goon.  

The only reason to use a marauder is to stall humans (exploit any weakness in aim or weapon selection, i.e. they don't' have accurate weapons).  After trying to crack a lot of bases, I see that goon are way more effective at it than marauders.  Marauders are just good cause they are 2 evos.


Camping is a legitimate tactic when humans can take out the alien base, but need to get rid of the defenders. A camping human team can quikly run the aliens dry of evos and then launch a lucifer/flamer strike against the alien base only having to worry about dretches, so you see, camping humans can, indeed take out a base, they camp until there is no alien defence to worry about.


Its not that easy.  If it was, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Please keep on spouting myths because it just keeps people doing the same stupid shit.  The only camping works is if the alien suicide every time (which isn't even necessary with advanced goons).

Humans need to coordinate but its harder to coordinate when the team has a very specific weapons that have to be used in specific ways and across different skill levels.  I've done the coordination thing and its works only because the good people are the ones working together.  In any game, if the good people work together, they win.

[Undeference]

I recently played on a server (don't remember the name) where they nerfed the aliens like crazy. It took half the map for a tyrant to charge, if someone just casually walked backward you couldn't hit them with a goon or tyrant, it took 6 hits with a tyrant to destroy a tesla, healing was at least halved, etc. It's pretty sad that some people blame the game for people sucking so much.

I was amazed at how much more powerful the aliens are if they use teamwork (alas, they still couldn't win).

[jal]

In public server games, my feeling is that new players are attracted to the human team because the play mechanics are more familiar and the learning curve is easier.  More skilled players tend to "graduate" to the aliens.

And later return to humans after being bored of waiting behind corners.
Humans are much funnier to play once you learn the game mechanics. I can spend the whole game in a continuous attacking rush, while in aliens I'm forced to sit and wait half of the game. "Rambos" enjoy more at human team.

[Survivor]

Take an different example.  Feed a beginner credits for a BS/Luci combo and take him with you to the alien base in S3.  Then take the same beginner and feed him 5 evos for a Tyrant and take him to the human base.  Which team will the beginner be more helpful for?  On humans, I doubt the beginner would even make it past the base door, if to the base at all.  

You assume a lot. Luci isn't a weapon which is learned to be used correctly at the start, if you gave him a chaingun he would live longer at the start. Besides the fact that í'd rather have him with a helmet pulse and batpack for support.

A newbie tyrant can easily block your escape on some maps and get you killed and you are forgetting that trem doesn't have bs+luci=tyrant. Trem isn't 1 vs 1.
Both teams become more powerful through teamwork, the human team way faster than the alien one.

I miss shots with advanced goon all the time.  No cross hair and heavy gravity influence on shots.  But give me or anyone enough time to compensate and you snipe anything in the base.  Most of the time, people miss because they are trying to snipe less than obvious stuff, like an armory behind turrets, rather taking the easy shot at turrets.

The adv goon has a crosshair by default and straight shots would be overkill, download 1.0.2 and see how overpowered straight goon shots were. And it's obvious that while taking 1 turret out of 7 has little impact on anyone but the builder taking out that armory has the potential to disrupt their base operations a lot longer when you're a lone adv goon.

A battle suit can not easily strafing around a tyrant.  The only human player that can out spin me is Yahoo and that's not even 100%.  Its lag, son.  

Not necessarily lag but it's true that it sure as hell is one of the hardest part to do. I can't with a bs, that's for sure.

You are complete lying asshole if you tell me that a marauder is better than a tyrant or an advanced goon.  

You're completely denying the uses of the lower alien classes, the (adv) marauder has enough wrecking power and at times is even more efficient at taking out certain targets. It depends on the situation which you have taken totally out of the equation.

The only reason to use a marauder is to stall humans (exploit any weakness in aim or weapon selection, i.e. they don't' have accurate weapons).  After trying to crack a lot of bases, I see that goon are way more effective at it than marauders.  Marauders are just good cause they are 2 evos.

See above

Its not that easy.  If it was, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Please keep on spouting myths because it just keeps people doing the same stupid shit.  The only camping works is if the alien suicide every time (which isn't even necessary with advanced goons).

Camping is a tactic, as a strategy you lose. But camping isn't only sitting on turrets, it's staying near your base. It can and will drain the aliens if you do it right, as is done by experienced players when they are at a disadvantage.

Humans need to coordinate but its harder to coordinate when the team has a very specific weapons that have to be used in specific ways and across different skill levels.  I've done the coordination thing and its works only because the good people are the ones working together.  In any game, if the good people work together, they win.

Completely true

[Vector_Matt]

The only reason to use a marauder is to stall humans (exploit any weakness in aim or weapon selection, i.e. they don't' have accurate weapons).

Which weapon "isn't accurate"? Barring the chaingun, they all hit exactly where you point.

[temple]

The only reason to use a marauder is to stall humans (exploit any weakness in aim or weapon selection, i.e. they don't' have accurate weapons).

Which weapon "isn't accurate"? Barring the chaingun, they all hit exactly where you point.

Actually, some have a delay.  Lasgun and Massdriver are the most accurate.  Pulse laser, flamer, and luci has to travel, so they are harder to hit a marauder.  Shotgun is actually good against close marauders but the spread makes it less than useful.  Same for chaingun.  Rifle is okay not damaging enough.

Pulse is a good example.  I'd rather use a marauder than a goon if I see pulse flying around.  But otherwise, goons > marauders, given a player is good at both.

[FooBar]

In public server games, my feeling is that new players are attracted to the human team because the play mechanics are more familiar and the learning curve is easier. More skilled players tend to "graduate" to the aliens.

And later return to humans after being bored of waiting behind corners.

I do agree with this, actually, but I left it out of my first post for simplicity.  The graduation from newbie to experienced takes you from humans to aliens; the graduation from experienced to elite takes you from aliens back to humans.  And the graduation from elite to l33t means you can pwn both sides.  

But seriously...

In my experience, barring clan matches, ALL games contain a mixture of experienced players and newbies.  I'm simplifying a little bit, of course.  To simplify further, I'd say I tend to see only two basic distributions:

1. Stacked teams -- a significantly higher quantity of experienced players on one team.  New or inexperienced players fill up the other team, plus one or two experienced players.

2. Even teams -- both teams have a small, equal number (1-4) of experienced or elite players, and the rest of the slots are filled by newer players.

In case 1 the outcome is almost always inevitable.  In case 2, it seems to me, the deciding factor is sometimes the skill of the skilled players, sometimes the mistakes of the inexperienced players.  Inexperienced players can feed, mess up the base, TK the base, block the retreat of fellow (skilled) aliens, etc.  More importantly, inexperienced players often don't communicate with the more experienced players.

So, really the question isn't which team is more powerful when both are experienced.  The question is, how do teams balance when there is a mix of experience and inexperience on both teams?

My whole point is if you take newbie#1 and put him on an alien team and a human team...newbie#1 will be more helpful and deadly as an alien. Especially if the newbie gets a tyrant or advanced goon. Take the same newbie and give him a battle suit and lucifier cannon and he isn't that helpful, regardless of the weapons.

if you take [pro]hummie and newbie#1 and put them on human team, against [pro]alien and newbie#2 on the alien team, the humans will win, so long as they have communication.

Take an different example. Feed a beginner credits for a BS/Luci combo and take him with you to the alien base in S3. Then take the same beginner and feed him 5 evos for a Tyrant and take him to the human base. Which team will the beginner be more helpful for? On humans, I doubt the beginner would even make it past the base door, if to the base at all.

The game being balanced for newbies is an entirely different thing from it being balanced for experienced players.

But the real point is, the game being balanced for a MIX is different from both, and a mix is what we usually see.  The above quotes are too simple, because newbies don't always communicate and rarely get fed credits.

[janev]

Pah. How do you get true balance when one team is melee and the other is ranged?. Every map plays differently and every battlefield favours one team or the other. Imo the balance is good enough.

Camping is my main beef... The alien team needs a better "rambo" tactic for killing bases(some siege class that can't be 1 shot killed by camping humans). I don't mind fighting when one team has the upperhand it's challenging...However i do find sitting infront of a row of turrets while lucifer cannon blasts and pulserifle shots wizz past me to be a tad boring.

What do you do when the humans go campus maximus on you? The way i see it the problem is the turrets are carrying too much weight for the human team. Players with a 10th of the skill of the attacking players just sit there and fire off bullets like they are in iraq. Could we maybe disable turrets when enough humans are near them?.

In the event of human campage what do you do?
a) wait for sudden death(sometimes up to 1h-_-)
b) try to kill them(kamikaze run and reward their camping)
c) just hang around looking for the odd stragler, gather frags and bleed their credits(like most tyrants you see in public play).
d) try to organise a team of first timers into an effective strike force and most likely just end up doing option b.
e)change teams and decon their reactor.

[Plague Bringer]

The whole coordination myth is what pisses me off and signifies the issue at hand.

Humans need to coordinate...

I think I've made my point.

On another note, PLEASE don't tell me that you're one of the noobs who think that human weapons and alien classes match up. eg. rifle=dretch, psaw=basi, shotty=mara, etc. Whoever said that the LuciBattlesuit us equally as good at taking out an alien base as a Tyrant is at taking out a human base? And why the HELL would a newbie be better at aliens then humans? You never did explain why you think that way. And do you really think that a newbie can succesfully snipe a turret with a rifle shooting at him?

You are complete lying asshole if you tell me that a marauder is better than a tyrant or an advanced goon.

Then I guess I am a complete lying asshole. And if you're saying that the tyrant and advanced goons are the best alien classes in the game, you are a completely arrogant asshole. It depends on player preference, sure, tyrants and (adv)goons have more health then marauders, that doesnt mean they're better. A marauder could own a battlesuit just as easily as a dragoon could, if not easier.

[Stof]

99% of the ingame situations are best suited for a mix of Tyrant and Adv Goons ( + a few odd Adv Grangers ). Only in very very exceptional situations are aliens better of with any other form at stage 3, provided they do not lack Evo points.

[Survivor]

99% of the ingame situations are best suited for a mix of Tyrant and Adv Goons ( + a few odd Adv Grangers ). Only in very very exceptional situations are aliens better of with any other form at stage 3, provided they do not lack Evo points.

If i may amend that to 99% depends on the player's preferred class. Although tyrant is easiest to play as it doesn't mean it's the best. Just today there were some wonderful combos of (adv)basi+adv mara/goon action, hardly any tyrant in sight.
The fact remains that for cracking base defense you need either adv goons and/or tyrants in quantity or luck plus an appropriate class in quality. And it's way easier to gather the first then to get the second.

[temple]

I think I've made my point.

On another note, PLEASE don't tell me that you're one of the noobs who think that human weapons and alien classes match up. eg. rifle=dretch, psaw=basi, shotty=mara, etc. Whoever said that the LuciBattlesuit us equally as good at taking out an alien base as a Tyrant is at taking out a human base? And why the HELL would a newbie be better at aliens then humans? You never did explain why you think that way. And do you really think that a newbie can succesfully snipe a turret with a rifle shooting at him?

I didn't say that but the point is if you give a beginner the best of both teams, the beginner would be more effective on aliens.  

Then I guess I am a complete lying asshole. And if you're saying that the tyrant and advanced goons are the best alien classes in the game, you are a completely arrogant asshole. It depends on player preference, sure, tyrants and (adv)goons have more health then marauders, that doesnt mean they're better. A marauder could own a battlesuit just as easily as a dragoon could, if not easier.

Arrogant?  I think you are pretty arrogant to deny the truth to either 1) Brag 2) argue a non-point 3) lack skill with a goon.
A goon does more damage and has 2 good ways to do it. A goon has much better handling and speed than a marauder.   I like marauders but they are cheaper than goons for a reason.

If i may amend that to 99% depends on the player's preferred class. Although tyrant is easiest to play as it doesn't mean it's the best. Just today there were some wonderful combos of (adv)basi+adv mara/goon action, hardly any tyrant in sight.
The fact remains that for cracking base defense you need either adv goons and/or tyrants in quantity or luck plus an appropriate class in quality. And it's way easier to gather the first then to get the second.

Tyrants and advanced goons do everything faster than any previous class.  A Tyrant can (note can, not always will) take out a whole base if they have enough room to work and kill off defenders first.  Advanced goons, if they hit with as many barbs as possible, can snipe a base down to the ground before you know it.  I've had that happen and it is very frustrating.

[techhead]

The battlesuit's lack of radar makes looking which way the Mara bounced pretty hard.
I generally find they ignore my Mara, keep going towards my base, and I start gnawing on their back.