Why is the human team so bad?

[Plague Bringer]

I didn't say that but the point is if you give a beginner the best of both teams, the beginner would be more effective on aliens.

but this brings up another argument, which IS the best of both teams?

A goon does more damage and has 2 good ways to do it. A goon has much better handling and speed than a marauder.   I like marauders but they are cheaper than goons for a reason.

Marauders have much better speed then a dragoon, also, a marauder does a helluva lot of damage, it can take out a naked human in one zap (if you sustain it). Marauders are a much more flexable class then the Dragoon, they have the power of the goon, the speed of a dretch, and the size of a (adv)basi, what else can you ask for?

Tyrants and advanced gons do everything faster than any previous class.  A Tyrant can (note can, not always will) take out a whole base if they have enough room to work and kill off defenders first.  Advanced goons, if they hit with as many barbs as possible, can snipe a base down to the ground before you know it.  I've had that happen and it is very frustrating.

and a skilled (adv) marauder can take on 3 lucisuits and walk away with 3 evos. I'd like to see a tyrant or (adv) goon do that.

[Survivor]

If i may amend that to 99% depends on the player's preferred class. Although tyrant is easiest to play as it doesn't mean it's the best. Just today there were some wonderful combos of (adv)basi+adv mara/goon action, hardly any tyrant in sight.
The fact remains that for cracking base defense you need either adv goons and/or tyrants in quantity or luck plus an appropriate class in quality. And it's way easier to gather the first then to get the second.

Tyrants and advanced goons do everything faster than any previous class.  A Tyrant adv mara can (note can, not always will) take out a whole base if they have enough room to work and kill off defenders first.  Advanced goons adv mara, if they hit with as many barbs as possible if they find a sweet spot with little turret fire, can snipe a base down to the ground before you know it take out reactor.  I've had that happen and it is very frustrating.

You're including too many ifs. The first one, kill of defenders, that's a big if. The second if, barbs, takes a lot of time if you're alone and it's a human team that deserves to lose if you can do it alone.

There is no definite proof one is better than the other. Basis have taken out reactors and dcs in bases other alien classes couldn't penetrate. Mara's have passed defenses and raped spawns and armories where the tyrants were still struggling at the doors. Adv goons have sniped dcs in amazing ways. If anything I think the tyrants is the alien class with least potential going for it other than big hitter, big health.
The fact remains, there are few times when a single alien will rape a base, and it happens mostly because most of the human team is in all actually out of commision, either due to spawn saturation or being too far away from base.
You just have seen so many of these large rushes i'm afraid that you have lost sight of the value of those little ones.

Also most expensive alien != most expensive human. That scale is wrong in trem. Never ever use it again.

[Stof]

Marauders have much better speed then a dragoon, also, a marauder does a helluva lot of damage, it can take out a naked human in one zap (if you sustain it). Marauders are a much more flexable class then the Dragoon, they have the power of the goon, the speed of a dretch, and the size of a (adv)basi, what else can you ask for?

Wrong, a Mara zap will NOT kill a human, even if he is unarmored. A Mara zap does 80 points of damage max. Of course, it requires to play on a patched server. Anyway, any kind of armor will completly nerf the mara zap damage.

and a skilled (adv) marauder can take on 3 lucisuits and walk away with 3 evos. I'd like to see a tyrant or (adv) goon do that.

It seems like you are playing a different game than the rest of us. A game where Dragoons do not have their wonderful pounce ability to flee and where mara users manage to kill lucisuits when they have a hard enouth time getting close to me and not getting blasted by my luci the instant they get in range on my larmor+helmet+batterypack+luci.

Go on a server with better players please.

PS : killing 3 lucisuit by yourself means you get 9 evo in the operation. I HARDLY doubt you can really pull that out since any player good enouth to get a lucisuit will not fall for such tricks.

[temple]

Marauders have much better speed then a dragoon, also, a marauder does a helluva lot of damage, it can take out a naked human in one zap (if you sustain it). Marauders are a much more flexable class then the Dragoon, they have the power of the goon, the speed of a dretch, and the size of a (adv)basi, what else can you ask for?

Zap only does 80 damage. Its lag that lets you kill unarmed humans.  This has been discussed in detail on the forums.  

Marauders deal around 40 damage (80 to the head) and goons deal 50-100 based on location.  Goons are more powerful.  

Pounce >>> wall jump any day.  Oh man have I learned that. You either haven't perfected it or haven't pushed a goon to the limit.  Bloodydemon and Yahoo could show you some stuff.  After experimentation, I'd take a goon over a marauder now that I have seen what they can.  

and a skilled (adv) marauder can take on 3 lucisuits and walk away with 3 evos. I'd like to see a tyrant or (adv) goon do that.

All you have to do is wait for them to jump at you and pop em.  Its satisfying.   With an advanced goon or tyrant, the raw damage means only need to land 3-4 hits. Tops.  Maybe marauders pwn ATCS but on any other map, goons and tyrants get it done quicker.



And for the record, I think Tremulous is balanced.  I think the human is just harder to play, maybe too hard for beginners to be effective.  And Turrets don't help beginners learn to play better.

[techhead]

Notice how Temple, Survivor, Stof, and Plague bringer seem to be talking to just to each-other, while ignoring anyone else participating in the discussion?

[temple]

You're including too many ifs. The first one, kill of defenders, that's a big if. The second if, barbs, takes a lot of time if you're alone and it's a human team that deserves to lose if you can do it alone.

There is no definite proof one is better than the other. Basis have taken out reactors and dcs in bases other alien classes couldn't penetrate. Mara's have passed defenses and raped spawns and armories where the tyrants were still struggling at the doors. Adv goons have sniped dcs in amazing ways. If anything I think the tyrants is the alien class with least potential going for it other than big hitter, big health.
The fact remains, there are few times when a single alien will rape a base, and it happens mostly because most of the human team is in all actually out of commision, either due to spawn saturation or being too far away from base.
You just have seen so many of these large rushes i'm afraid that you have lost sight of the value of those little ones.

Also most expensive alien != most expensive human. That scale is wrong in trem. Never ever use it again.

I agree.  I've recently got a lot better with marauders and basilisks and I know what you are talking about. Its because maras are slightly smaller than goons, so once you get in a base, you can jump out of turret range and sit on a reactor without getting shot.  

Its hard to describe thing and hard to duplicate.  However, a goon jump in a base and do similar magic, albeit less directly to a reactor (due to ceilings on some maps, if the builder places the reactor under low ceilings).  Really, you just have to vault over the initial turrets, kill the rear turrets, then hit the reactor.  If the base is too crammed, neither class can sit on a reactor without getting shot to pieces.  

The only definite reason why maras and basilisks are just more effective is the evo cause.  You can blow more of them on jumping into a base than you can with goons.  

But honestly, a tyrant moving really fast can do some good stuff.  I like to jump turrets when possible and just ruin base.  Tyrants, like goons, have to played very aggressively. Just running up to the base and swiping works but given a highly skilled player, you can do as much or more with tyrant than a low level alien.  The only drawback is that tyrants have huge hitboxes that make defending easier.  But a good trample, jump, and any edge will get around the ground limit of a tyrant.

[janev]

Notice how Temple, Survivor, Stof, and Plague bringer seem to be talking to just to each-other, while ignoring anyone else participating in the discussion?

yeah i noticed :cry: and it took me like a long_ish time to type up my 250 word rant on human camping

[Plague Bringer]

Notice how Temple, Survivor, Stof, and Plague bringer seem to be talking to just to each-other, while ignoring anyone else participating in the discussion?

There are other people here?

@temple - I think we've all almost reached mutual agreement here. Temple has admited marauders can be usefull, I'm currently training with a dragoon (I can land the snipes, I can even whip 'em straight up and have them come down on an armoury like artillery fire it's the pounces that get me  :-? ). Marauder's strength in destroying bases comes with a few flamers or lucis camping the human base, and friendly fire to buildables on, a marauder can jump around in there and get the humans to kill the reactor themselves  

@Stof - I still enjoy taking 20 damage from 4 hummies at the same time   . I, myself, cannot take on 3 lucisuits at the same time with a Marauder, but it's too easy with a dretch when the halls are crowded with humans on ATCS and FF is on  :wink: .

@temple...again - Marauders own Beyond Derelict, they're the biggest class that can fit in the vents, so do boosted dretches  . I find that newbies quickly figure out what each weapon is good for, newbs quickly learn that the lucifer cannon is good for anything smaller then a marauder and is a powerful adversary against anything above a mara (if used correctly). They also learn that chainguns arent for dretches, but tyrants and goons (and maras if you want to risk loosing your stamina chasing it around), the MD is good all around if you have the skill, the flamethrower is for mas killing dretches, basilisks, and those retarted goons who dont use pounce to run away. Oh, naked rifles can take out adv goons easily (in my experience) just sprint right at them and strafe around them so they dont know where to pounce, just keep pumpin lead in them andd they'll be finished before they run ouround the corner (of course you'll be eaten by dretches on the way back to th armour  :-?)

Wow, EMOTE SPAM FTW, sorry if that's alot to read  :oops:

[vcxzet]

Notice how Temple, Survivor, Stof, and Plague bringer seem to be talking to just to each-other, while ignoring anyone else participating in the discussion?

lol who cares about them
@temple -> you stole my maps name
@survivor -> how will you survive against a tyrant with just rifle
@stof -> STOP USELESS SPAM
@plague bringer -> bring it on I am teh van
@techhead -> cheer up
@janev -> you could summarize it as "camping ftl"
@dretch -> stop biting my ass I am typing and fyi it is a devmap
@vcxzet -> STFU
@noobs -> RTFM
@@ -> @

[Plague Bringer]

@vcxzet -> STOP USELESS SPAM

[Survivor]

Notice how Temple, Survivor, Stof, and Plague bringer seem to be talking to just to each-other, while ignoring anyone else participating in the discussion?

I don't respond to posts with which I agree mostly, that would be cluttering this topic. I simply go after those that I can't agree with and try to explain why I don't agree with it. Also most people simply avoid my points in any discussion. I wonder why.
Stof's one of the few people here who will take on any discussion if he feels someone's wrong and is also able to admit his own faults. Mucho respecto to stof.
Also notice I never said the tyrant or adv goon are useless, I'm just saying that the other classes also have their uses albeit less noticed by most players.

@survivor -> how will you survive against a tyrant with just rifle

Where did I say 1 rifle will win from a tyrant?

[vcxzet]

Where did I say 1 rifle will win from a tyrant?

isnt survivor your name ?

[Plague Bringer]

ph34r the dancing hamster

[Survivor]

Ah in that way. Oh well, I'll explain.

@uncreation
First I make totally sure i have the rifle loaded up, I lift it up and aim it towards the tyrant. Now if you will notice one thing it is that I am not yet firing. This is because there is not yet a need to. The tyrant is charging up it's trample and going straight for me now. At the last second, I finish my cup of coffee and sidestep so that the tyrant falls into the deep.

@niveus
I make sure I shot 174 bullets. 'Why?' you may ask. Well that is because 7 is a lucky number, and as you will notice I now have 6 bullets left. This simply means I pressed the trigger a bit too long. No worries. Because of the fact that the tyrants is now very near to me I still have enough time to take the trash out. Because of this the tyrant totally misses me and gets shot to pieces by the turret.

@nexus6
Ah yes, the rifle obviously is no good at nexus because it does 5 damage per bullet; the blaster though does a whopping 9 damage per shot. So I whip out the blaster. While I take aim I remember I forgot to duck and as I do so the tyrant's slash misses me. I fire the blaster and the tyrant dies. Well, he shouldn't have messed with that blaster

@atcs
I don't play atcs

@arachnid
While I put out my blanket on top of the crates I see a tyrant approaching. What the tyrant didn't see was the dretch approaching behind him and blocking him, resulting in him getting shot by the rifle.

@karith2
The tyrant silently approaches the human base having learned from it's previous mistakes. As he rounds the corner he brings a human with a rifle to the next plane of existence. Sadly, that human wasn't me. He retreats back around the corner and waits. As he becomes bored he rushes past the base and up the stairs and heads back to his base. He encounters me but sadly my blastershot misses him hits the last remaining egg and I die. Well, you can't win em all

[jal]

Just a side note to the discussion. It should also be counted how easy is the given alien to kill. Goons are by far the easiest to kill. Maras and Tyrants are similarly hard to get killed. But Maras aren't any dangerous while you attack them cause they can't deal you damage and dodge at the same time. Tyrants on the other side can deal you damage very fast while you attack them.

[Vector_Matt]

But Maras aren't any dangerous while you attack them cause they can't deal you damage and dodge at the same time.

Jump and head bite, circle strafe and chomp, there are many ways that a Mara can deal damage while dodging.

[techhead]

Take a nibble every time you fly over the human's head.
2 bites of just hair.
5 bites of a stylish helmet.
7 bites of clunky metal.
(All numbers assume full health and too noobish for medpacks)

[[A]]

Wtf are you all talking about, the main thing to know is "LTAAMN" (Learn To Aim And Move Nub).

The only think you can do to balance this game for noob people is creating a rifle with autoaim like "tracker" in avp. You can think about anything else you want, you will not make them aiming better.

And stop saying "a mara could kill ---- a rifle naked could kill ---- i could have a big dick ---- .....", that's not the point, cose majority of player CANT do that.

[jal]

But Maras aren't any dangerous while you attack them cause they can't deal you damage and dodge at the same time.

Jump and head bite, circle strafe and chomp, there are many ways that a Mara can deal damage while dodging.

I talk in generic fashion. A Mara can, ofc, but it's very hard for him and easy for the human to dodge him.

[temple]

"]Wtf are you all talking about, the main thing to know is "LTAAMN" (Learn To Aim And Move Nub).

The only think you can do to balance this game for noob people is creating a rifle with autoaim like "tracker" in avp. You can think about anything else you want, you will not make them aiming better.

And stop saying "a mara could kill ---- a rifle naked could kill ---- i could have a big dick ---- .....", that's not the point, cose majority of player CANT do that.

You always have something arrogant to say.

The problem is not aiming, idiot.  I spend this thread talking about many things that cause problems.

[vcxzet]

"]Wtf are you all talking about, the main thing to know is "LTAAMN" (Learn To Aim And Move Nub).

The only think you can do to balance this game for noob people is creating a rifle with autoaim like "tracker" in avp. You can think about anything else you want, you will not make them aiming better.

And stop saying "a mara could kill ---- a rifle naked could kill ---- i could have a big dick ---- .....", that's not the point, cose majority of player CANT do that.

You always have something arrogant to say.

The problem is not aiming, idiot.  I spend this thread talking about many things that cause problems.

everything is about aiming
IT IS A FPS; AIMING IS 90% OF IT

[temple]

"]Wtf are you all talking about, the main thing to know is "LTAAMN" (Learn To Aim And Move Nub).

The only think you can do to balance this game for noob people is creating a rifle with autoaim like "tracker" in avp. You can think about anything else you want, you will not make them aiming better.

And stop saying "a mara could kill ---- a rifle naked could kill ---- i could have a big dick ---- .....", that's not the point, cose majority of player CANT do that.

You always have something arrogant to say.

The problem is not aiming, idiot.  I spend this thread talking about many things that cause problems.

everything is about aiming
IT IS A FPS; AIMING IS 90% OF IT

Tremulous is nothing like most deathmatch games.

[vcxzet]

"]Wtf are you all talking about, the main thing to know is "LTAAMN" (Learn To Aim And Move Nub).

The only think you can do to balance this game for noob people is creating a rifle with autoaim like "tracker" in avp. You can think about anything else you want, you will not make them aiming better.

And stop saying "a mara could kill ---- a rifle naked could kill ---- i could have a big dick ---- .....", that's not the point, cose majority of player CANT do that.

You always have something arrogant to say.

The problem is not aiming, idiot.  I spend this thread talking about many things that cause problems.

everything is about aiming
IT IS A FPS; AIMING IS 90% OF IT

Tremulous is nothing like most deathmatch games.

that is why it is not 100%  :wink:

[temple]

that is why it is not 100%  :wink:

Tyrants and goons are hard to miss.  
Alien structures can't move.
Its not about aiming.

The only thing you have to aim at are marauders and dretches.  
So, no, there is a whole hell of a lot more to tremulous than shooting.

[Stof]

that is why it is not 100%  :wink:

Tyrants and goons are hard to miss.  
Alien structures can't move.
Its not about aiming.

The only thing you have to aim at are marauders and dretches.  
So, no, there is a whole hell of a lot more to tremulous than shooting.

Aliens will have a hard time getting goons and tyrants if they face only humans with very good aiming ability while they are still playing dretches

Once aliens pass to the bigger forms, aiming matters less than movement and placement and .... CASH. Without cash, you cannot buy the tools to kill bigger aliens, and if you can't kill bigger aliens to get the cash to kill bigger aliens, then you have to kill the smaller aliens

See, 90% ofhuman play in trem is about aiming.

[[A]]

In alien too, if you cant aim the head of a human wich have good evades you will not have many chance to rules the game.

The same : I see many goon who think they can kill me cose i m naked and alone, but they have a shit aim and with my evades i have the time to fire 2 clip (and reloading between of course) before they hit me. They lose their goon cose they have no aim ... And where they are dretch ... just lol.

I have a good aim, i know it, i played many fps before, and i know my aim level, i seen many better aimers than me and on many game. But it's not normal that 3/5 of the game i play, some players call me aimbotter. It's not normal they can't imagine it's possible to aim with good (far away from perfect) accuracy without use a cheat. But if they dont believe it's possible, they will not try and they will not improve their aim skill. And you will not fix that with changing weapon ability. Or maybe you want a game for lessskill players.

There is nothing to change about weapons, but many thing to changes about players themself ...

[B.A.M.F.]

Why the human team "always loses" is because all the n00bz0rs think it's easier.

[Sage]

they re not so bad:P.http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shot0255zg5.jpg
The quality is bad cuz my screens of it didnt saved so my friend did them

[Survivor]

they re not so bad:P.http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shot0255zg5.jpg
The quality is bad cuz my screens of it didnt saved so my friend did them

The fact that you alone have more kills then the entire opposing team combined, as do the other 2 top players, and yet the alien team still lives tells me that you think killcount matters more than winning the game.

[Plague Bringer]

yeah...it doesnt matter how many kills you have, if you get the OM, the last egg, or the last alien, that's what counts, that's what wins games. This isnt Halo, a team doesnt with the game with X amount of kills.