Proposed changes

[Nux]

This thread is mostly in response to this collection of intended changes. If this account differs from the actual set of changes or reasons thereof, please say so. The following is a direct response to this account and I'd like to know who agrees or disagrees and what reasons there are for such changes. So far I've heard little explanation for what has been proposed and as much as has been provided has been very questionable.

Anti-Camping
Aliens will no longer be as frustrated by camping human players because the Adv. Dragoon is now available at Stage 2. The Adv. Dragoon snipe attack has splash damage.
Also, because human turrets have a slight spinup delay, skillful dretches can run inside the human base and get a few kills before being shot by turrets.

I'm pretty sure "Camp" is caused by the alien abilty to make it to the human base quickly where they become impatient to kill the slower humans. So why restrict the humans more?

Lag Correction
While the Tremulous implementation of Neil Toronto's unlagged is becoming widely accepted, MGDev also implements client-side improvements not possible in 1.1 servers. Because attacking is more accurate on account of lag correction, Humans no longer need to lead their weapons and Alien ranges and attack widths have generally been decreased.

Unlagged is not becoming widely accepted. The community is split down the middle.

Dretch
Dretches can now damage any human structure while it is still building, but can no longer damage turrets and teslas that have been completed.

I hope this imbalance is somehow compensated. The dretches can't do anything to the human base without killing a human first and evolving- unless we're encouraging an all out battlegranger attack -whereas humans don't require a single kill to destroy all the alien base.

A long-known feature of Tremulous 1.2 is mark decon. This has been featured in some of the earliest versions of TJW's svn and has been on MGDev for as long as I can remember. It's also been implemented as an option in some custom server QVMs (g_markdeconstruct is the variable on most).

It has been said that Marked decon makes moving less awkward and prevents deconning. IMO the marking system can be more awkward and does nothing to prevent deconning. If anything it allows for more disruption than before (e.g. the structure is placed in a bad position with no between time for action to be taken).

Other changes seem more promising with minor quarrels which amount to having adjusted to the game as it is.

The rest seems great and I particularly encourage any work in Aesthetics of the game (e.g. Models, HUDs etc).

Note: I have played on MGdev and understand that these changes are just ideas that can be tweaked to eventually get a great result. I only hope that all considerations have been made or are being made so that I can be informed of them.

[David]

Lag Correction
While the Tremulous implementation of Neil Toronto's unlagged is becoming widely accepted, MGDev also implements client-side improvements not possible in 1.1 servers. Because attacking is more accurate on account of lag correction, Humans no longer need to lead their weapons and Alien ranges and attack widths have generally been decreased.

Unlagged is not becoming widely accepted. The community is split down the middle.

The version most servers run lacks all the client side bits, try the new before assuming its the same as what we have everywhere else.
Also I think more servers run it than dont, if you ignore all the ones still running  1.1 / default name.

[Undeference]

Unlagged is not becoming widely accepted. The community is split down the middle.

Code: [Select]

Checking for g_unlagged as boolean
          OCCUPIED UNOCCUPIED TOTAL
Timed out - - 17
Disabled 11    15% 61    84%  72
Enabled  21    29% 50    70%  71
Not set  2      4% 46    95%  48
Total    34    16% 157   75%  208
Almost twice as many occupied servers with unlagged enabled as disabled. 1 more server with it disabled than enabled.

[Lakitu7]

I'm pretty sure "Camp" is caused by the alien abilty to make it to the human base quickly where they become impatient to kill the slower humans. So why restrict the humans more?

The incredibly nerfed alien regen means humans are not as frustrated by aliens camping outside their base. Chasing is also more effective.

I hope this imbalance is somehow compensated. The dretches can't do anything to the human base without killing a human first and evolving- unless we're encouraging an all out battlegranger attack -whereas humans don't require a single kill to destroy all the alien base.

If you can't kill a human in your first attempt with how nerfed the turrets are, they're all camping, or you're not very good.

It has been said that Marked decon makes moving less awkward and prevents deconning. IMO the marking system can be more awkward and does nothing to prevent deconning. If anything it allows for more disruption than before (e.g. the structure is placed in a bad position with no between time for action to be taken).

It's still g_markdeconstruct in svn and it will be in 1.2. You're welcome to not use it if you do not want to.

[Archangel]

Look what you've gone and ruined now.

[gimhael]

The incredibly nerfed alien regen means humans are not as frustrated by aliens camping outside their base. Chasing is also more effective.

Well, if they had some teamwork they'd camp around a basilisk just behind the next corner, a normal lisk gives a 500% boost to regeneration, an advanced lisk gives 800% !! But apparently most players don't care. I think lisk+goon > 2 goons.

If you can't kill a human in your first attempt with how nerfed the turrets are, they're all camping, or you're not very good.

Yes, the aliens can get some kills even if the humans camp in their base now, just by hopping over the turrets and committing dretchicide on some unsuspecting human at the arm or on the medi. I like it.

[Nux]

Code: [Select]

Checking for g_unlagged as boolean
          OCCUPIED UNOCCUPIED TOTAL
Timed out - - 17
Disabled 11    15% 61    84%  72
Enabled  21    29% 50    70%  71
Not set  2      4% 46    95%  48
Total    34    16% 157   75%  208
Almost twice as many occupied servers with unlagged enabled as disabled. 1 more server with it disabled than enabled.

Firstly I'd like to point out that a third of the community is still a large proportion.

Please can you tell me what you are judging 'occupied' by. In the case that 'occupied' servers are those that had players in at ONE point in time then your conclusion is invalidated by the bias toward whichever continent was awake a the time. I'd guess that you didn't take the data when Europe was awake. If I'm wrong and your basis for declaring certain servers as 'occupied' is more sound then please elaborate on the selection system used.

Also note that by your statistics, 72 v 71 is pretty damn near being split down the middle if server settings alone are a good indicator of general acceptance.

Further than this, if "Not set" means they don't have the g_unlagged variable then doesn't this fit into the 'not running unlagged category'? This would shift the balance toward not running unlagged.

And if none of this is a good indicator of general opinion, how about looking at recent polls regarding unlagged acceptance. Those that I've seen have shown a significant portion of unacceptance (though I don't like lava's third option which might have caused skew).

The version most servers run lacks all the client side bits, try the new before assuming its the same as what we have everywhere else.
Also I think more servers run it than dont, if you ignore all the ones still running  1.1 / default name.

If by try the new you are referring to mgdev then as I've stated I have done. If you are talking about those who contribute to the general opinion polls regarding unlagged who haven't actually tried it, I'd consider that they might not favour the idea itself (in which case the success of implementation is of minor importance).

The incredibly nerfed alien regen means humans are not as frustrated by aliens camping outside their base. Chasing is also more effective.

Sounds good. I hope it works.

If you can't kill a human in your first attempt with how nerfed the turrets are, they're all camping, or you're not very good.

This doesn't begin to address the range of possible skill levels which might be present. It seems like you're saying the game should only work when the humans feed. I find current trem most fun when they DON'T.

It's still g_markdeconstruct in svn and it will be in 1.2. You're welcome to not use it if you do not want to.

This is a welcome feature, but the effectiveness of the marked decon system at all is still a question I'd like clearing up.

[Rocinante]

If you can't kill a human in your first attempt with how nerfed the turrets are, they're all camping, or you're not very good.

This doesn't begin to address the range of possible skill levels which might be present. It seems like you're saying the game should only work when the humans feed. I find current trem most fun when they DON'T.

Tremulous is most fun for humans when the humans do not feed.  However that doesn't mean the only alternative is camping, there's a third one which entirely too many people forget to use: PLAY THE GAME.  The biggest problem I've had in public games is people who camp because the other team is "too hard", "too pro", "too whatever".  So instead of taking the risk and playing, they make some futile attempt to win by default and just camp within the safety of turrets.  Now any other players on the human team, who are fairly decent alone but always better with backup and assistance, are left to run out on their own to attempt to get any stage-ups, or else sit in the base with everyone else and camp along.  This makes the game the least fun, just as much as some idiot who runs out with a blaster headfirst into a tyrant 8-10 times in a row.  The new turrets help this by making camping in the base and doing nothing not-an-option anymore; you'll die just as much if you sit still, so keep moving anyway.  Yes, turrets help, but they're no longer the noob answer that they once were.  Likewise, as much as I hate the alien regen nerf - being most fond of playing the alien team - I agree it needs to be done, for as much camping as humans do behind turrets, aliens do as much just outside the entrances/exits to the human base.  As mentioned, goon + basi is better than 2 goons now, but hey, look at that: now, there's TEAMWORK involved on aliens too!  No longer is "run into base, kill stuff, screw your team" the best mantra, but actually gathering a few together for an attack run is the most successful plan.  Kinda like gathering a couple humans together to make a run on the alien base.  Wow, this almost sounds like something, precariously perched on a small point and yet not falling in one direction or another.. what's that called, oh yeah.. a balance.

[/soapbox] (not directed at any party specifically, unless they wholeheartedly disagree with the above :> )

[techhead]

Aw man.
I always feel like that one guy who rushes out to chase down the wounded goons while his teammates stay in base, resulting in my inevitable demise. Quite often my death is at the hand of my quarry's teammates who are camping around the corner.

I do hate the stage 3 state of near-perpetual alien siege on the entrances to the human base.

Back on the subject, I do agree with the scope of most of the changes, but not always specific ones. I could write a list here, but I do not quite feel like it right now. Here are a few.

* Dretch has 20 hp and a 24³ BBox, while I would rather 25 hp and a 30³ BBox. This would smooth out the learning curve both using and facing the starting alien unit.
* Adv. Basilisk has 80 hp and regens at 9 hp/sec. This is insanely fast regen, and a IMHO poor way to deal with the difficulty of killing Basilisks in 1-on-1 combat.
* Machine gun turrets do 8 damage with a speed of 10Hz (10 times/second). It doesn't really fit in thematically with the Human's stock of other projectile weapons. Perhaps change it to either 4 damage at 20Hz or 5 damage 16Hz.

[Nux]

If you can't kill a human in your first attempt with how nerfed the turrets are, they're all camping, or you're not very good.

This doesn't begin to address the range of possible skill levels which might be present. It seems like you're saying the game should only work when the humans feed. I find current trem most fun when they DON'T.

Tremulous is most fun for humans when the humans do not feed.  However that doesn't mean the only alternative is camping, there's a third one which entirely too many people forget to use: PLAY THE GAME.

On the off chance you thought I was advocating camping, I'd like to state here that I'm not.

I just don't see what lakitu7 said as an explanation. Anyhow, suggesting that camping is the reason for not getting kills WITH the new system is suggesting the new system doesn't do it's job.

In addition, I'd like to point out that balancing the game for your average feedy gamer can mean unbalancing it for the more experienced players.

[Lakitu7]

Whether they're in the base or not, if you're a dretch and most of the team is together and looking at you, they're going to shoot you. Sticking together will always be the best solution for humans. The point is to make them do that moreso outside the base and lesso inside the base, by making the area directly outside the base a little less scary and the area inside the base a little less safe.

You know as well as I do that clanmatches are full of camping until SD. It's half the reason the scene is in such a bad state: the matches are boring as hell from all the camping. "Experienced" players need balancing in this regard just as much, if not moreso. Other changes are debatable in that regard, but not the camping-prevention ones, in my opinion.

[Lava Croft]

You know as well as I do that clanmatches are full of camping until SD.

NO!?

[Nux]

You know as well as I do that clanmatches are full of camping until SD.

NO!?

This is news to me too. I don't even see why a clan match should need such a thing as sudden death. Isn't SD more for those public games where the tactics and strategy don't exist to end the game one way or the other? Where humans resort to camping and get annoyed when the aliens surround their base with eggs, tubes and dretches galore?

I suggest you try clan matches without SD in the future. You might find the more challenging/fun games are the ones that didn't end so quickly. Where the aliens have to limit feeding at the start because they can't rely on SD and where the humans will then leave thier base if they want to make any progress.

[Lakitu7]

Okay then. I didn't know that no-SD was on the list of things European groups do differently.

[Lava Croft]

I like how Nux did not notice my obvious sarcasm, while slightly apologizing for the derailing.

[Nux]

Okay then. I didn't know that no-SD was on the list of things European groups do differently.

I wouldn't go that far. This is just a personal preference which I don't think you were taking into account. Please stop treating particular examples as universal.

@Lava: The irony was lost on me, yes. So you were implying that this what Lakitu7 said was obvious? Then I recommend adding reasons why this is so. No need to apologize for derailing when there's something useful in there.

[Lakitu7]

Frankly, I misread that a disagreement too.

[Nux]

Frankly, I misread that a disagreement too.

Oh, an irony mark, that's a REAL useful invention؟

Now back to the topic. I propose if you're unsure about these changes (or perhaps TOO sure) come to an mgdev server next saturday to get a better idea. I'll try to be there for as long as possible.

[Hendrich]

Aliens will no longer be as frustrated by camping human players because the Adv. Dragoon is now available at Stage 2. The Adv. Dragoon snipe attack has splash damage.
Also, because human turrets have a slight spinup delay, skillful dretches can run inside the human base and get a few kills before being shot by turrets.

Those aren't bad ideas, but the thing about turrets not bein g able to actually protect humans might be questionable, its understood that at least dretches could get a few kills from those well-deserved campers.

[kevlarman]

the turrets are there to protect the reactor/nodes/armory, not the humans who are hiding behind them

[Undeference]

Please can you tell me what you are judging 'occupied' by.

Those servers with at least 1 client at the time they were queried.

In the case that 'occupied' servers are those that had players in at ONE point in time then your conclusion is invalidated by the bias toward whichever continent was awake a the time. I'd guess that you didn't take the data when Europe was awake.

Note that I stated no conclusions whatsoever in my post.
It does appear that you are correct that much of Europe may have been asleep. I'll get new stats at 1000UTC.

Also note that by your statistics, 72 v 71 is pretty damn near being split down the middle if server settings alone are a good indicator of general acceptance.

The data might indicate operator and player preferences. Any interpretations of it are at your own risk ;-)

Further than this, if "Not set" means they don't have the g_unlagged variable then doesn't this fit into the 'not running unlagged category'?

From a gameplay perspective, "Not set" is identical to "Disabled". Those servers most likely have no active operator or administration.

And if none of this is a good indicator of general opinion, how about looking at recent polls regarding unlagged acceptance. Those that I've seen have shown a significant portion of unacceptance (though I don't like lava's third option which might have caused skew).

The forums are not a very useful representation of the players/operators in general.

[Nux]

Thank you for clearing that up

I'll grant that the sample of players who happened to use the poll might not properly represent the player population but I wouldn't dismiss it completely. It's the closest thing to a general survey we're likely to achieve and is especially valuable when combined with the comments in the corresponding threads.

[Undeference]

From 1000UTC

Code: [Select]

Checking for g_unlagged as boolean
          OCCUPIED UNOCCUPIED TOTAL
Timed out - - 22
Disabled 21    27% 56    72%  77
Enabled  22    32% 46    67%  68
Not set  2      3% 61    96%  63
Total    45    19% 163   70%  230Interestingly, there are now substantially more servers without unlagged support (69 right now, up from 48 earlier this week).

[David]

What code did you use to generate that?
It might be nice to take hourly readings and plot it on a graph/time or whatever.

[Undeference]

What code did you use to generate that?

I wrote it in Perl. In all, the program that gets the scripts and all the dependencies I wrote are about 1000 lines, much of which is not very elegant or useful to anyone other than me. When/if it's a bit nicer, I'll think about putting it on CPAN.

It might be nice to take hourly readings and plot it on a graph/time or whatever.

I was thinking the same thing but I figure that's the point of this.

[frazzler]

THE BATTLE_GRANGERS!!!!! NOOOOEZ!!!! PLZ DEAR GOD !!!!! the last thing we want is for 1 singlular battlegranger. let alone an entire attack squad of those obese green blobs! :O

[Syntac]

Eh... Why the hell are you posting that here?

[Hendrich]

THE BATTLE_GRANGERS!!!!! NOOOOEZ!!!! PLZ DEAR GOD !!!!! the last thing we want is for 1 singlular battlegranger. let alone an entire attack squad of those obese green blobs! :O

Frazzler, your on the fast track to being banned or more likely restricted. I suggest that you stop posting such childish crap into the forums (Already 2 of your threads were locked) and make sure to post in the right section. Most of all, a wise moderator once told me to "GET THE FUCK BACK ON TOPIC", I suggest you do the same.

[danmal]

@Lava: The irony was lost on me, yes. So you were implying that this what Lakitu7 said was obvious? Then I recommend adding reasons why this is so. No need to apologize for derailing when there's something useful in there.

I usually play clan matches with about 5v5 (plus or minus 2 players), with unlagged off, FF disabled and share enabled (usually atcs as well unfortunately). If you play with different settings then your experience may vary. What aliens will usually do is camp in base and wait for the humans to come to them. When the humans attack they'll be forced to enter base and take damage from tubes. This usually takes their health down to the magical 96 mark and they can be 1 hit by dretchs or just chomped by goons. Aliens will do this until SD when they should (hopefully) have 9 evos. Aliens will then proceed to chain jump RC or just slowly wear the human base down.

Humans are required to attack aliens because they need s2 to successfully attack an alien base otherwise they'll usually end up dead. However humans are reluctant to enter the alien base because they know they'll be one hit. Hence humans usually stay outside alien base waiting for aliens to attack while the aliens are more then happy to just wait for SD.

The other alternative is that aliens camp outside human base ready to eat any humans. This usually only happens when there's a fair skill difference between the two clans though.

This is of course my own personal experiences. The high penalty for death (especially for the aliens) seems to encourage low risk activities (aka camping) which is why clan matches tend to be campy. I'm not too sure how these balance changes will impact on clan matches.

[Kaleo]

The other alternative is that aliens camp outside human base ready to eat any humans. This usually only happens when there's a fair skill difference between the two clans though.

Reminds me of our chaingun turret camping match...

Fun times. Fun times...