Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Asche on March 14, 2009, 02:29:17 am
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I speak for the Tremap group (french mapper group) and some tremulous players who think that it's time, as some other games, to enhance the graphic quality of Tremulous
Have you already check Nexuiz ? (Open source quake like) (http://www.nexuiz.fr/)
(http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/nexuiz000022_1.jpg) (http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/nexuiz000022.jpg)(http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/nexuiz000078_1.jpg) (http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/nexuiz000078.jpg)
Lenext Urban terror client under development ? : (http://forums.urbanterror.net/index.php/topic,12609.0.html)
(http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/shot0001_1.jpg) (http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/shot0001.jpg)
The Xreal game (quake 3 but beautiful) ? : (http://www.xreal-project.net/wordpress/)
http://www.xreal-project.net/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/gwdm2/xreal-20090303-000555-000.jpg
http://www.xreal-project.net/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/gwdm2/xreal-20090303-000546-000.jpg
http://www.xreal-project.net/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/mic_modeltester/xreal-20090215-143040-000.jpg
http://www.xreal-project.net/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/mic_modeltester/xreal-20090216-233728-000.jpg
http://www.xreal-project.net/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/mic_modeltester/xreal-20090217-123634-000.jpg
All the segames use a technique to render the textures called "Bump mapping"(or parallax bump mapping for Xreal), that add a better realism
Example of bump :
(http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/nexuiz000004_1.jpg) (http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/nexuiz000004.jpg)(http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/nexuiz000012_1.jpg) (http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/nexuiz000012.jpg)
(http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/nexuiz000015_1.jpg) (http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/nexuiz000015.jpg)
Example of parallax bump (Xreal) :
(http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/xreal-20090313-023845-000_1.jpg) (http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/xreal-20090313-023845-000.jpg)(http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/xreal-20090313-023856-000_1.jpg) (http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/xreal-20090313-023856-000.jpg)
(Nice, isn't it?)
The best is the implementation or the complete conversion to an existing 3D engine is possible!
There are plenty of programmers who know how to convert a tremulous mod to a standalone version!
Inaddition, Tr3b, the Xreal engine developer wrote a tremulous mod for Xreal (like the first version of tremulous that was a mod for Quake 3)
And it work fine. I compiled Xreal with the tremulous mod and all the graphical effects (Bump/Specular/Parallax mapping) are working
It miss only someone to create a standalone version and add minor fixes (the client was wrote only for Linux)
The tremulous community is waiting for it, a game that can be compared to the commercial games
The Tremap group found a new way to use high definition textures so map are better when you look details
Some example:
Standard quality texture on the left/ High quality texture on the right
(http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/shot0005_1.jpg) (http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/shot0005.jpg)
High quality texture on the left / Standard quality texture on the right
(http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/tst03_1.jpg) (http://teamfsn.org/asche/bump_freegame/tst03.jpg)
And we find new things each evening!
We have several maps in project, with HD textures, and we can easily rebuild the mostplayed maps (ATCS, Tremor, ...) with HD textures
With an upgraded 3D engine ( like the Xreal one, that seems the best to use for tremulous) Tremap could be some map with a quality that you never seen on afree games
With this quality and the good tremulous gameplay, it would be marvelous for everyone:
- Current players
- New players
- The developers that would have more possibility
- Mappers
Some HD texture and 3D engine like xreal would make a game better than the IDTech 4 engine used in some famous game: Quake 4, Doom 3, Quake Wars Enemyterritory and Prey.
What isa pity:
The tremulous gameplay is very nice and the 1.2 version will make it better. Yes,it's good, but is it a higher priority than graphics quality?
The gameplay is currently very good, it was awarded "Standalone Game of the Year" for 2007.
What are doing all these Devs that created all these mods and new version of tremulous?
So, it'sthe time to think to the visual pleasure of the game, not to the gameplay! Let this gameplay like it is and work about Xreal tremulous!
There is alot of people, including me, that are ready to pay a professional developer todo this work!
Thinkabout: creating a game excellent in all point of view (exceptional gameplay and maps), would make crazy several commercial game editor!
A word to the wise is enough.
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a new engine means essentially remaking the entire game (code and assets) from scratch (except maybe xreal, that would require somewhat less effort for the code, but it's not stable enough yet to start making games off of). also, other than the crappy urt screenshot (just because it has bloom doesn't mean it's a modern engine), you need a very recent graphics card to make it look like anything other than q3, and a $200 graphics card for maxed out settings in some of those engines.
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One reason I love Tremulous is that virtually any PC can play the game so anyone can jump in and play, and if the devs disagree I would kill them slowly, starting with Who. >:D
Also, you said the gameplay is already good and that they should concentrate on visual quality, but I disagree. Tremulous is still considered to be unbalanced and I assume much of the development time has been into tweaking Tremulous and Tremulous already has significant lag issues in the community so throwing in an engine demanding a more powerful rig isn''t gonna help that.
Yes we know, Xreal looks very sexy and its possible to import most of the Tremulous models/animations/etc, but like Paradox said, the Xreal engine hasn't been matured, reliable or practical yet for games to start using it, thus explaining the utter lack of open source games using the engine.
I'm not saying your idea sucks, no, no, but my opinion stands that in this point of time, its unwise to start concentrating on visual quality when theres so many factors of Tremulous needing to be fixed for v1.2.
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kevlardox? paraman?!
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also, people seem to act like a more modern engine magically looks like those screenshots. so far many mappers can't even figure out that there are texture sets other than eq2, let alone create the normal/height/spec maps to make their textures actually look like that.
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also, people seem to act like a more modern engine magically looks like those screenshots. so far many mappers can't even figure out that there are texture sets other than eq2, let alone create the normal/height/spec maps to make their textures actually look like that.
Also, people don't seem to know about maps other than ATCS.
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crappy urt screenshot
it has reflection and 128 fps (in nexuiz my fps was dropping from 150 to 15 when i was looking at a slop)
(http://odin.mercenariesguild.net/xreal/tremulous/screenshots/xreal-20090108-032250-000.jpg)
Tremulous running in XreaL with (very experimental)HDR enabled. Mr. Granger has stars in his eyes!
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Xreal can be configure for low systeme !
I think that "a unbalanced game play" is not a good argument for denying graph. evolution
If Xreal doesn't have mature enough, why not look at the Nexuiz code which also Open Source?
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Both XreaL and DarkPlaces (the Nexuiz engine) can be configured to run on low-end systems, at which point they both look like Q3. This still requires that most of the game assets are rewritten, which is a somewhat larger task than porting the trem code to another Q3-derived engine such as XreaL, or even to a completely different engine such as DarkPlaces.
You might want to check out TremFusion: http://www.tremfusion.net/ They're currently trying to port Tremulous to XreaL.
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This has been suggested many, many times. French community wants to split and port, please do so (insert Quebec joke here).
Also, I think XReal looks like a piece of shit. Everything looks wet, overly shiny, and ugly as anything.
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I do believe Xreal runs horribly slow for what it does ( even latest svn runs slow ). As for it looking "wet, overly shiny, and ugly as anything" would be more an issue with the data and not the engine itself. I'm sure all those parameters are part of the materials.
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One reason I love Tremulous is that virtually any PC can play the game so anyone can jump in and play
Agreed. Plus, I don't really care about graphics as long as the gameplay is good. Tremulous gameplay is awesome.\
And I think that the number 1 priority for the Tremulous devs should be a flying granger.
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Despite XreaL being able to be scaled back to look like Q3, it still requires a Geforce 6600 or better. This is because of XreaL's requirement of Shader Model 3.0. One way to fix this would be to detect OpenGL 1.4 or below for older cards and have the engine disable everything that the card cannot do(shadows, bump-mapping, HDR/bloom/SSAO post process effects, specularity, deluxemaps, etc) and do everything that IS possible on the video card. If that's not enough, implement the required features in software(like Q3) to get the game running. One cool feature for this sort of backwards-compatibility would be to bake bumpmaps into the diffusemaps to achieve static bumpiness in textures, like how bump detail is baked into textures in Q3A.
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It's dangerous to increase graphical quality.
To my understanding, a large part of our playerbase enjoy Tremulous because it will run and run well on old shitty computers (such as mine). Increasing graphical quality significantly lowers performance, which will have the potential to drive off such players.
It's interesting that the original poster mentioned Nexuiz, as it's a particularly good example of this.
In the good old days of Nexuiz 1.2.1, it didn't look absolutely breathtaking, but since my old worthless computer bounded along at several hundred frames per second regardless of what was going on in the game, I was fairly happy.
Since then, quality has increased to what you see in the above pictures, except instead of several hundred FPS, I only get ... several.
I don't play Nexuiz much these days.
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It's dangerous to increase graphical quality.
True. Aliens might come down and blow up the planet if we increase it too high.
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From my perspective, I have the impression that the tremulous.net community refuses progress that would be good for everybody.
The idea of being able to detect if the graphics card of the user support the bump mapping texturing is very good, that it could be in the code.
Tremulous is ugly, but he can be beautiful, if some people (Dev) really thinks about the possibility of changing the engine.
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It is possible to have the client choose between 2 renderers, such as the current one and XReal.
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Great news no ?
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You'd have to re-do almost all of the assets in Tremulous to have it work with XreaL anyway.
^ Redacted.
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It's dangerous to increase graphical quality.
To my understanding, a large part of our playerbase enjoy Tremulous because it will run and run well on old shitty computers (such as mine). Increasing graphical quality significantly lowers performance, which will have the potential to drive off such players.
It's interesting that the original poster mentioned Nexuiz, as it's a particularly good example of this.
In the good old days of Nexuiz 1.2.1, it didn't look absolutely breathtaking, but since my old worthless computer bounded along at several hundred frames per second regardless of what was going on in the game, I was fairly happy.
Since then, quality has increased to what you see in the above pictures, except instead of several hundred FPS, I only get ... several.
I don't play Nexuiz much these days.
My Nexuiz does not look like that. And I'd know, too. I see a lot of dog shit on the streets. Tried setting your settings (what an awkward sentence) to low?
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Tremulous is ugly...
Your face is. >:( (Proof of ugliness, please).
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Tremulous is ugly...
Your face is. >:( (Proof of ugliness, please).
Tremulous (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa309/Emisibiu/shot0018.jpg)
XReal (http://www.xreal-project.net/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/mic_modeltester/xreal-20090215-143040-000.jpg)
:P
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Tremulous is ugly...
Your face is. >:( (Proof of ugliness, please).
Tremulous (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa309/Emisibiu/shot0018.jpg)
XReal (http://www.xreal-project.net/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/mic_modeltester/xreal-20090215-143040-000.jpg)
:P
The second image doesn't look much better. If darkness is supposed to be "better", then nothnx.
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Wow. That's so hideous. The second shot, I mean. Oh, and Asvarox, that's quite biased, as (no offense to the map maker) that isn't a proper demonstration of what Tremulous can look like. Go find shots of the Odin Tanker in the Random Devshots. Personally (yeah, yeah, I've said it enough) XReal makes everything look like shiny plastic. Ew. do-not-want.
(http://www.hitech-blog.com/wp-content/2008/09/quake.jpg) It just makes everything look so obviously computerized.
(http://blogs.splunk.com/devuploads/2007/10/Gorilla_donotwant.jpg)
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When you resort to picking a crappy box map with zero detail, why should we take anything else you say at face value?
EDIT: Plague Bringer beat me to it :(
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XReal makes everything look like shiny plastic
Doom 3, anyone? ::)
Agree or disagree, I believe graphics aren't the only factor that makes the game's presentation. In the infamous Call of Cthulu, what makes the game memorable was the little things. The shadows, the poster textures, the water that moves as you walk through it, the slight change of light contrast emitting in a lamp post, etc.
Things like these can also be found in Tremulous. The small particles emitted from a Lucifer or a mass driver or the spin of the reactor. The breathing animation of a dragoon or how they added the lightning moving across the Adv. Marauder's body or even the split-second flash of bullets shot from a turret.
Even the official maps in Tremulous boosts its overall quality. The pipes running under grated floors, wires connecting to ceilings, the smoke billowing out of pipes, windows showing a desolate, unsurvivable world and more qualities too numoreous to mention.
In that way, Tremulous already looks beautiful, but dated because of the engine. But if you want sexy graphics, throw in TF's bloom lighting, maps compatible with Shiny Shaders and specular lighting and you got sexiness right there. Yea its not anything like what they're doing with Urban Terror, but atleast its good enough to look at without that plastic feel to it.
Thats why I can't agree with others that the developers should torture themselves any further, learn a totally new engine (Xreal's code mostly resembles to I.D Tech 4 as mentioned on Xreal's website) when they already have a perfectly good engine on their hands. They know Quake 3 and if they remake Tremulous in a new engine, its likely it'll contains bugs they don't even know about.
Besides, Tremulous source code is right there in the open for free, why make developers do something that you're not willing to do yourself? If its that important to you, learn to code/model/etc with your friends and do it yourself. If you're not willing to do that, then I guess its not something worthwhile to be done.
As mentioned before, I'm not picking on anyone for suggesting such (<3), just saying its logical to say that Tremulous doesn't require a new engine. Hopefully what I said made sense.
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Wow. That's so hideous. The second shot, I mean. Oh, and Asvarox, that's quite biased, as (no offense to the map maker) that isn't a proper demonstration of what Tremulous can look like. Go find shots of the Odin Tanker in the Random Devshots. Personally (yeah, yeah, I've said it enough) XReal makes everything look like shiny plastic. Ew. do-not-want.
That was rendered on an old revision of XreaL, not to mention the texture set used(eX) didn't originally come with very good detail maps. In fact it doesn't have any height maps by default; they had to be generated in crazybump. Plus, eX doesn't tend to look good with only itself and no other combination of textures, except in some limited cases. There are some parallax test shots that look absolutely gorgeous, rendered in XreaL by the TrueCombat continuation mod group. Here's an example:
http://www.shrani.si/f/1x/1Q/1unLLeh5/xreal-20090307-153147-00.jpg
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Or how about we all wait a couple of years for id Tech 4 to be open source.
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Exactly the same stuff applys.
My guess is when idt4 comes along, a new game will be made much like how trem followed on from gloom.
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I wont vote for 'new engine' idea.... but still wanna see some shader improvements. Some water/specular possibilities... heh...
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XreaL is already better than idTech4...
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Except idt4 lags less and looks about the same. :D
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A larger variety of shaders in maps would be great. Interesting things. Bulging alien tubes, or water hoses. Flickering lights. Maybe there should be a shader repository (hey, MG!)
Odin: I don't know why, but I am predisposed to dislike XreaL. That screenshot is just as ugly as the rest. I can't stand the look of any of that. Just looks ugly.
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Agree or disagree, I believe graphics aren't the only factor that makes the game's presentation. In the infamous Call of Cthulu, what makes the game memorable was the little things. The shadows, the poster textures, the water that moves as you walk through it, the slight change of light contrast emitting in a lamp post, etc.
That was an awesome game, exactly for those reasons. Too bad they didn't manage to get the other game out.
(Sorry for off-topicness)
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Maybe there should be a shader repository (hey, MG!)
Use the patch tracker? Get a few on there and I'm sure a new category or whatever can be added.
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Or just add shader section to the wiki. Then you could not only paste the shader code but also explain how the shader actually works. I've seen a lot of unnecessary stuff in shaders because the mappers just copied a shader from another map (e.g. alpha blending .jpg textures - probably the original was a .tga texture).
The main problem when you want to enhance the renderer in a backward compatible way are the shaders. Additional normalmap textures in the PK3 would be simply ignored by old clients that can't render them, but the shader syntax has to be extended for all the special effects and the q3a shader parser is unfortunately not extendable (any unknown keyword will cause the shader loader to fail).
Also the q3a shader model is based on a multipass rendering model, which means that there are several rendering stages specified in the shader that are combined ultimately in the frame buffer. A significant part of the performance gain of more modern card comes from the fact that they combine multiple textures and then blend them in a single pass into the framebuffer, so IMHO we would need a new extended shader syntax adapted to the newer GL features.
A map would have to include two sets of shaders (compatibility shaders in foo.shader and extended shaders in foo.xshader). Then you could have maps that show all that eye candy on an updated renderer and still work on the q3a renderer, but this would of course mean extra work for the map creators.
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Or how about we all wait a couple of years for id Tech 4 to be open source.
Or a couple of months.
Carmak announced that idTech4 would be released as OS this year.
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Or just add shader section to the wiki. Then you could not only paste the shader code but also explain how the shader actually works. I've seen a lot of unnecessary stuff in shaders because the mappers just copied a shader from another map (e.g. alpha blending .jpg textures - probably the original was a .tga texture).
If you want documentation on how to make shaders and what bits do, then go for it. If you just want a load of shaders, then that's not what wiki's are designed to do, and not something they are good at.
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Something like this?
http://xreal.sourceforge.net/xrealwiki/ShaderManual
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Oh, and Asvarox, that's quite biased, as (no offense to the map maker) that isn't a proper demonstration of what Tremulous can look like.
That was my point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony)
Isn't it possible to extend current engine, to optionally execute some of shaders' keywords? So for example i go to options and check/uncheck "Use parallax bump (if possible; may slow down the game)"?
http://www.shrani.si/f/1x/1Q/1unLLeh5/xreal-20090307-153147-00.jpg
If that wall is just a simple square brush, then damn its awesome
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Isn't it possible to extend current engine, to optionally execute some of shaders' keywords? So for example i go to options and check/uncheck "Use parallax bump (if possible; may slow down the game)"?
Yes, it is possible to extend the engine with new shader keywords for bump maps etc, the question is what kind of compatibility do you expect.
- a new renderer with completely new data format (like XReal) -> you will have to update all maps, models etc., users of old client will not be able to play on the new maps
- a new renderer with a few extensions but downwards compatible shader syntax -> you can use old maps and models, but users of old clients will still not be able to play on the new maps
- a new renderer with new shader syntax and additional compat shaders -> you can use old maps and models, users of old clients can play on the new maps, but then the mappers have to provide two sets of shaders
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The last idea is better, the mappers from TreMap (Mappers french community) can release all maps with old and new renderer engine, it's not a probleme.
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(http://blogs.splunk.com/devuploads/2007/10/Gorilla_donotwant.jpg)
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(http://blogs.splunk.com/devuploads/2007/10/Gorilla_donotwant.jpg)
Tremulous is the one single game that makes me proud of what my graphics card is capable of running.
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Tremulous is the one single game that makes me proud of what my graphics card is capable of running.
If tremulous is the most eye-candy game that your computer can run, you should really consider spending those $30 (which isn't that much even for me, polack nub) on new graphics card. You can, for example, drink less bear for some time :police:
Yes, it is possible to extend the engine with new shader keywords for bump maps etc, the question is what kind of compatibility do you expect.
Well i would expect that if i uncheck parallax mapping, renderer will simply ignore that keyword while loading shaders, so atcs will look like atcs, with no special eye-candies. Basically making every new enchantment optional, so I can go back to today's trem look anytime
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You can, for example, drink less bear for some time :police:
Everybody should drink less bear.
;)
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Tremulous is the one single game that makes me proud of what my graphics card is capable of running.
If tremulous is the most eye-candy game that your computer can run, you should really consider spending those $30 (which isn't that much even for me, polack nub) on new graphics card. You can, for example, drink less bear for some time :police:
Unfortunately, not a solution for all machines everywhere. This MacBook, which runs Trem just fine, can't really be upgraded as far as gfx, as the processor is integrated, and shares memory w/ the CPU. Being able to still turn all off all of the new effects off would be just fine w/ me. Just sayin': Not everybody is playing on a box like yours.
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You can, for example, drink less bear for some time :police:
Everybody should drink less bear.
;)
Bear, better than fierce grape gatorade!
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To my understanding, a large part of our playerbase enjoy Tremulous because it will run and run well on old shitty computers (such as mine). Increasing graphical quality significantly lowers performance, which will have the potential to drive off such players.
... And players with good computers will look to some better looking game and give up with trem....
I think that a bit modernized engine is quite needed, also since all the q3 oldness can make the game run not that well also on low end modern graphic cards.
It will be a good point in the engine discussion the possibility to have the engine "rollback" to near-q3 graphic level, so that players with older pc can continue enjoying the game.
For XReal ( for example ) during the port a good idea can be heve all the ShaderModel3 code wrapped in some cvar or direcly disabled at runtime if the GLOption is not found.
About "looking like plastic/crap" i think it's due to a overusage of blooms/reflections, things that, once already in the engine, can be fixed quite easly setting the "special effects" to a lower level, having a smoother looking game.
I think that a newer engine and reworked game ui can give a new life to this great game, attracting some new players. Also people that is more used to modern looking games that probably think that the current game is quite bad looking.
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If you want a good looking game, go play a good looking game.
I prefer good gameplay to good graphics.
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If you want a good looking game, go play a good looking game.
I prefer good gameplay to good graphics.
Take heed to this wise man's words of salvation. +1
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If you want a good looking game, go play a good looking game.
I prefer good gameplay to good graphics.
Correct me if im wrong, but discussion not about 'lets make better graphic instead of good gameplay' ^_^
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If you want a good looking game, go play a good looking game.
I prefer good gameplay to good graphics.
Correct me if im wrong, but discussion not about 'lets make better graphic instead of good gameplay' ^_^
actually, that's exactly what it amounts to, since it would take up so much developer time to remake the game almost from scratch on a new engine.
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Well, honestly, if it's been about 3 years for 1.2, how long would a new trem engine take...
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Odin: I don't know why, but I am predisposed to dislike XreaL. That screenshot is just as ugly as the rest. I can't stand the look of any of that. Just looks ugly.
At this point it's not what it "looks like." The gun model is WIP(and might be completely replaced), the level is WIP, and the HUD is WIP. The screenshot I posted was for depicting the current features of the shader system in XreaL. You should rather imagine what is possible, since XreaL lacks a lot of media to make it a full game at this point of time. XreaL is still being developed and its list of rendering features is impressive(just look at the shader manual). It has probably the best HDR rendering of any open-source engine I have ever seen, as well as full support for Diffuse, Normal, Bump, Height, Cube, etc, texture maps in TGA, PNG, and JPG. If you really want to get anal with screenshots:
http://www.xreal-project.net/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/mic_modeltester/xreal-20090215-143040-000.jpg
http://www.xreal-project.net/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/mic_modeltester/xreal-20090216-233728-000.jpg
http://www.xreal-project.net/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/mic_modeltester/xreal-20090217-123634-000.jpg
Recent engine updates have brought Epic's PSK model format support:
http://www.xreal-project.net/base/wip/xreal-20090316-134627-000.jpg (UT2004)
http://www.xreal-project.net/base/wip/xreal-20090317-123110-000.jpg (UT3) (Professionally-designed Model/Textures being rendered here)
Except idt4 lags less and looks about the same. :D
idTech4 has trouble rendering large rooms with lots of models. It effectively cannot render large outdoor scenes because of this. Its netcode also caps the maximum connected players to 16, and suffers lots of network lag issues. Graphically it does not support bloom, HDR, SSAO, etc, that XreaL supports. idTech4 is also written in C++ which incurs a slight performance hit compared to XreaL/Q3A which is programmed in C. This characteristic would actually make it a bit easier for the devs to port everything over to, if they wanted to.
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Environments are not fluid. Everything looks disconnected, and very little flows well. I see much potential, but at this time, a new engine for Tremulous is a mistake. In fact, I think that at any time, if Tremulous is released officially on a new engine, it will be a mistake (unless, like NS2, it's a COMPLETE revamp and doesn't look like shit). Tremulous doesn't need a change like this. I can play Half Life 2, full settings, and I won't argue that next generation games are amazing looking, but Tremulous can be just as beautifully immersive as any game. (Except Roller Coaster Tycoon 2. Shit, that's fuckin' amazing.)
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From just a brief glance at the XreaL shader manual, it seems as if some of the most plastic-looking and too-wet textures in some of the screenshots that folks find objectionable just have the specularity of the shaders a bit too high, like the mappers or shader artists were just too enthralled with that aspect of the renderer's features.
I agree that it will probably be the community, and not "official" development which embraces such visual tweaks, and that there will probably be another offshoot of Tremulous that more fully explores eye-candy and the integration of a renderer like XreaL. Thanks to Odin, Amanieu & David for their informative replies.
Cheers.
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I like it. I'm sorry it's "too plasticy" for you....
It looks much nicer than it did before.
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the thing if we stay on the q3 engine tremulous will never die because soon people will be able to play it on cell phones.
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the thing if we stay on the q3 engine tremulous will never die because soon people will be able to play it on cell phones.
Yes!
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Wrong. The engine uses ~100 megs of RAM, which phones don't have. Also, good luck aiming with a phone :x
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Wrong. The engine uses ~100 megs of RAM, which phones don't have. Also, good luck aiming with a phone :x
thats why i said SOON because phones will be able to play tremulous eventually and people will learn how to aim an even if they can't its still better then tetris
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What if it has a touchscreen?
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What if it has a touchscreen?
Sounds like aimbot. Just touch possible target on screen and relax. =]
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Sounds like aimbot. Just touch possible target on screen and relax. =]
Generally FPS' on touchscreen (like Q3 for the iPod touch, or whatever) work like a touch pad. You press and you drag.
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Wrong. The engine uses ~100 megs of RAM, which phones don't have. Also, good luck aiming with a phone :x
I was able to run trem on computer without openGL support and 64 RAM (maybe less). The lowest settings with like 480x360 resolution. I was getting like 10 fps, but mostly because i was using r_allowSoftwareGL 1.
:angel:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F19RwAzPaZU&feature=related
Quake 3 on Ipod touch & iPhone running 30 fps...
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Tremulous on phones is definitely possible. Because:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a4/MGST.jpg) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear_Solid_Touch)
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I'm surprised no one mentions QFusion's (Warsow's) renderer as an option. It would actually be the easiest one to plug-in since it would only require to replace the renderer and uses the very same data and shader formats. Maybe because it's not so flashy, but it would be a great step forward in looks for Trem with minimal (none when running the current maps) performance impact.
(http://www.warsow.net/media/blog_imgs/wip05_2.jpg)
(http://www.warsow.net/media/blog_imgs/wip05_4.jpg)
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Flashy.
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Give mappers true dynamic lighting.
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Tremulous will die because not work on Commodore C-64, AtariXL and my calculator! Downgrade graphic engine to text renderer and everybody can play it with high FPS.
Everyone else upgrading graphic in their games, but they all are fools.
You cannot play new game? Take down graphic details or buy new hardware. I have old shitty computer. I have 20 FPS in some situations in ATCS. I cannot play best due to my FPS. But I vote YES for new engine. "Leave Tremulous ugly because every homeless can play it" is bad argument.
I like this view:
(http://www.hitech-blog.com/wp-content/2008/09/quake.jpg)
:granger:
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You cannot play new game? Take down graphic details or buy new hardware. I have old shitty computer. I have 20 FPS in some situations in ATCS. I cannot play best due to my FPS. But I vote YES for new engine. "Leave Tremulous ugly because every homeless can play it" is bad argument.
You're right, people with old PCs should gtfo and play Vortex. There isn't much gain in attracting new players with old rigs on a game that can preform well on virtually anything, we should instead get a new, flashy engine requiring a better PC and leave those noobs in the dust forcing them to either buy better hardware or go to hell. I see your point of view and it totally makes alot of sense. Its a matter of quality over quantity; Performance and stability over graphics and...graphics.
I mean, look at games like BZFlag, Galaxy Online, Runescape, etc. They are idiots for not using better graphics.
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Runescape was, is and will be full of idiots, just like Tibia :angel:
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Writing a better renderer for Tremulous doesn't mean that the old one has to be trashed. The interface between the renderer and the rest of the game engine is already designed in a way that you can compile the game with different renderers (except there is only one renderer to choose atm unless you count the null renderer).
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You're right, people with old PCs should gtfo
No, they should buy new hardware or take down graphic details. How many players had shitty computer? I being killed in situation with 15FPS, cannot aim anything. So I often asking "how much fps do you have, my killer?" And answer is 70 or similar. So, maybe I am only one player, who have old shitty computer ;) Or no? Is there big "old shitty computer" community?
I like to play old games from arcade machines. They had graphic like this:
(http://rotaxmame.cz/hry/wbmlb.png)
And I really enjoy it.
Most important is playability, no graphic. But when we already have playability, why not improve graphic? Beacuse it can't be played on old computers? Oh please... Then devs should use Doom 1 engine, you can run it on 486.
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People seem to forget that stuff can be disabled for higher performance.
What would be nice would be to at least port XreaL's VBO support for getting more rendering done on the GPU. I'm tired of getting poor performance on the ioQuake3 engine because so much of it is done on the CPU.
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People seem to forget that stuff can be disabled for higher performance.
What would be nice would be to at least port XreaL's VBO support for getting more rendering done on the GPU. I'm tired of getting poor performance on the ioQuake3 engine because so much of it is done on the CPU.
+1
Powerful GPUs are so cheap these days.
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I believe even the Geforce FX series supported VBOs, and they're like $20 now.
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VBOs aren't any magic stuff that always add speed. The renderer has to be designed around them to actually perform faster. Just adding VBO support to Q3 renderer generally results on it going slower, unless you really turn the actual thing upside down.
To everyone thinking Trem should go to the coolest powerful option: Some games are more suited than others to go to the latest rendering abilities. Trem is one of the worst suited. Why? Because it puts real big lots of models and gfx in screen while playing. Trem should not go for the state of the art on rendering, cause it would not perform well even in the best hardware. And if you expect everyone to play with the lowest rendering settings you are getting an uglier game.
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Well, I got higher FPS with VBOs on a GeForce 6600, Amanieu got worse FPS on an Intel chip (dunno which one). The renderer spends most of the time just copying the triangle data into the buffers for the OpenGL library, because it updates the complete geometry every frame. Keeping the static geometry data on the graphicscard should generally be a win when the vertex transformation is done on the graphics chip and you don't exceed the graphics memory.
Quake 3 was definitely designed for less entities than Tremulous uses, this part of the engine is not very much optimized. One easy improvement which requires no coding skills whatsoever would be simplified models for far away entities. The engine already supports LOD switching for entities, but you have to provide separate models for different LOD levels.
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I already tried that. (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=7474.0) It proved to be way too much work because the animations had to be re-done in order for this to work. It is a lot more work than you think. What would be easy is if Tremulous models were MD5, then lod models would be possible.
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So, how much work is it to coerce the engine into using md5 models?
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So, how much work is it to coerce the engine into using md5 models?
Well If you're a coder I have made some effort in porting XreaL's MD5 code to ioquake3. You can view the patch here (http://pastebin.ca/1368132). It doesn't compile at all(I am not especially good at coding in c).
Once the support is there the models would have to be converted to md5mesh, and md5anims would have to be created. Yes this means re-doing all animations. However, it would only have to be done once, whereas it would have to be re-done for each lod model level for the original md3 models.
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So, that means that .md5 models use skeletal animation, right? (Just clearing it up for those that don't know) That would mean that it would be much easier for users to create their own content for Tremulous, meaning new, creative units. It'd be easier for the developers to animate, too. Amanieu, if you're checking up on this, you think TremFusion will feature md5 support?
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MD5 support should be easy to add, just port the code over from Xreal.
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So, that means that .md5 models use skeletal animation, right? (Just clearing it up for those that don't know) That would mean that it would be much easier for users to create their own content for Tremulous, meaning new, creative units. It'd be easier for the developers to animate, too. Amanieu, if you're checking up on this, you think TremFusion will feature md5 support?
Plus there would be no more segmented models, and the head/torso/legs would connect seamlessly together(no more pacman torso for the human models). And, if alien models were md5, they could do their movement animations while taunting, attacking, etc, and not slide across the floor.
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So, how much work is it to coerce the engine into using md5 models?
Well If you're a coder I have made some effort in porting XreaL's MD5 code to ioquake3. You can view the patch here (http://pastebin.ca/1368132). It doesn't compile at all(I am not especially good at coding in c).
I had a quick look at that patch, and I think it doesn't compile because it's coded for the XReal dynamic lighting. The original Quake 3 dynamic lighting has been completely reworked in XReal.
Once the support is there the models would have to be converted to md5mesh, and md5anims would have to be created. Yes this means re-doing all animations. However, it would only have to be done once, whereas it would have to be re-done for each lod model level for the original md3 models.
As far as I know, you wouldn't get automatic LOD with md5. You would still have to make some low-poly models.
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Even pseudoselfshading would be awesone on dark maps. High resolution bumps on model would be awesome too.
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Once the support is there the models would have to be converted to md5mesh, and md5anims would have to be created. Yes this means re-doing all animations. However, it would only have to be done once, whereas it would have to be re-done for each lod model level for the original md3 models.
As far as I know, you wouldn't get automatic LoD with md5. You would still have to make some low-poly models.
Odin was referring to the animations. Getting a lower poly model is as simple as pressing a button, as I understand it, and that lower poly model can use the same skeletal animations as the higher poly one. However, with .md3, which uses vertex animation, you would have to rebuild every animation after you lower the poly count, as you're getting rid of and creating new vertexes.
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As far as I know, you wouldn't get automatic LoD with md5. You would still have to make some low-poly models.
Odin was referring to the animations. Getting a lower poly model is as simple as pressing a button, as I understand it, and that lower poly model can use the same skeletal animations as the higher poly one. However, with .md3, which uses vertex animation, you would have to rebuild every animation after you lower the poly count, as you're getting rid of and creating new vertexes.
Well, the same things applies to the md3 LODs since they are also skeletal-animated in the modelling application, but I guess the base problem is that no one has the original player model files and animations so they can't be just re-exported.
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Well if someone decides to do this then I guess I will check it out but other than that, the old engine works fine for me :).
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Well, the same things applies to the md3 LODs since they are also skeletal-animated in the modelling application, but I guess the base problem is that no one has the original player model files and animations so they can't be just re-exported.
I've done modeling. .md3s are use vertex animation. That's not saved if the model is distorted to such a great degree.
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as far i know Ender added md5 support to tremulous
(http://www.tremfusion.net/forum/download/file.php?id=18&mode=view)
http://www.tremfusion.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=389#p389
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Well, the same things applies to the md3 LODs since they are also skeletal-animated in the modelling application, but I guess the base problem is that no one has the original player model files and animations so they can't be just re-exported.
I've done modeling. .md3s are use vertex animation. That's not saved if the model is distorted to such a great degree.
But md3s are only md3s after you export them. Before they are .max and biped files (or .mb, whatever), and those are the ones I'm talking about. ;)
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So, how much work is it to coerce the engine into using md5 models?
Well If you're a coder I have made some effort in porting XreaL's MD5 code to ioquake3. You can view the patch here (http://pastebin.ca/1368132). It doesn't compile at all(I am not especially good at coding in c).
I had a quick look at that patch, and I think it doesn't compile because it's coded for the XReal dynamic lighting. The original Quake 3 dynamic lighting has been completely reworked in XReal.
Yes, I know. The patch code still has various bits of stuff from XreaL it doesn't need. Tr3B(the developer of XreaL) said there is almost no XreaL specific code in the MD5 loading code.
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So, are you planning to work on it enough to take the unnecessary stuff out?
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What are the people who are working on it going to do when 1.2 comes out?? Will you continue the project?? If you were going to intergrate it to 1.2 I would imagine that it would be tough to do.
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So, are you planning to work on it enough to take the unnecessary stuff out?
No, that code is literally the best I can do. I am not a coder. I was told by Tr3B that the MD5 code can be safely ripped out of XreaL with nothing XreaL-related stuff required.
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I don't think switching to md5 is going to give you much in speed. You still have to render the triangles basically the same way regardless of the format the model is stored in. Jal is right, the game isn't suited for high end effects, there is too many models on the screen generally.
On the flipside, somebody could grab a copy of the Orange Book and easily implement GLSL and at least get some bumpmapping in that could be disabled by default for something.
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I don't think switching to md5 is going to give you much in speed. You still have to render the triangles basically the same way regardless of the format the model is stored in. Jal is right, the game isn't suited for high end effects, there is too many models on the screen generally.
On the flipside, somebody could grab a copy of the Orange Book and easily implement GLSL and at least get some bumpmapping in that could be disabled by default for something.
This topic is about improving looks not speed. Quake 3 and it's affiliated mods (aka, Tremulous, OpenArena, Doom) are based on good gameplay and not good graphics, hence the downside of the engine's ability to render many triangles at a time. Still, adding md5 support would improve performance and graphics, therefore adding to the reputation of the game, which is what we most definitely want.
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Adding md5 (or any other skeletal format) would add some posibilities, but it would not improve performance. Skeletal models are actually slower to proccess. They do have advantages that make them worth it, like animation blending and generally easier artirst usage, but performance is not one of them. The performance gain people is talking about comes given by LODs, and you don't need skeletal models to make LODs, all you need is to get the original model files or to re-create the models from scratch, which would have to be done for switching to skeletal models anyway.
Switching to skeletal models is not just a matter of adding the support for loading and drawing them, btw. All the player model animations system has to be rewritten, the skeletal animation blending has to be implemented, and all the models have to be redone from scratch.
I've done this in Warsow and I know it very well. And I do think skeletal models are worth the work, but people should know this is not just a simple format switch.
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Actually I remember Tr3b saying something about md5 being faster because of the way vbos are used with them or something.
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Actually I remember Tr3b saying something about md5 being faster because of the way vbos are used with them or something.
You can use VBO's with any model format.
In the end you're going to be rendering an array of vertexes. Whether it's loaded in as an md2, or md3, or md5, it's not going to matter much. There may be slight differences in the process of animation(but in the end, you're still rending a single frame of an array of vertexes), and that is where the bottleneck occurs. Model format has little effect on peformance, and as Jal explained, skeletal animation is slightly slower because of the extra processing that must be done.
As far as Xreal goes, it's a very nice engine, but I doubt would be practical for Tremulous. I believe it does shadowmapping, which is a painfully slow process, much like real time reflections(requires multiple renders of the entire scene).
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Actually I remember Tr3b saying something about md5 being faster because of the way vbos are used with them or something.
You can use VBO's with any model format.
In the end you're going to be rendering an array of vertexes. Whether it's loaded in as an md2, or md3, or md5, it's not going to matter much. There may be slight differences in the process of animation(but in the end, you're still rending a single frame of an array of vertexes), and that is where the bottleneck occurs. Model format has little effect on peformance, and as Jal explained, skeletal animation is slightly slower because of the extra processing that must be done.
As far as Xreal goes, it's a very nice engine, but I doubt would be practical for Tremulous. I believe it does shadowmapping, which is a painfully slow process, much like real time reflections(requires multiple renders of the entire scene).
unless you have unanimated models, using vbos requires that you can do the animation in the vertex shader (even with md3, which is a collection of frames, you need to be able to linearly interpolate between frames).
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You can enable/disable stuff in Xreal to make it look like anything from the good old q3 engine to a shiny new engine.
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MD5 models are faster because they can reside entirely on the GPU.
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I don't know why I bother, but well... MD5 is just a skeletal model format, nothing else. Supporting MD5 doesn't imply you do the vertex transformations in the GPU, nor it means you put the meshes in the vertex buffer objects. Those are particular optimizations of a engine (in this case, xreal) on the way it handles meshes transformations. Implementing the model format doesn't magically add vbo and glsl support to the Q3 renderer. The meshes would be drawn just as they are now, trading the vertex interpolation for vertex-to-bone transformations (the later being a bit more expensive), and trading the use of 3 different models by the transformation of the skeletal pose (the later being a bit less expensive, I think). Things remain more or less the same performance wise.
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I don't know why I bother, but well... MD5 is just a skeletal model format, nothing else. Supporting MD5 doesn't imply you do the vertex transformations in the GPU, nor it means you put the meshes in the vertex buffer objects. Those are particular optimizations of a engine (in this case, xreal) on the way it handles meshes transformations. Implementing the model format doesn't magically add vbo and glsl support to the Q3 renderer. The meshes would be drawn just as they are now, trading the vertex interpolation for vertex-to-bone transformations, and trading the use of 3 different models by the transformation of the skeletal pose. Things remain more or less the same performance wise.
The big difference here is that you can create LOD models without having to re-do the animations for every lod model.
It would be best to obtain the source model(.blend perhaps?) and re-export it with lod models, if it's possible.
The alien models can also benefit by being able to have the walk animation running while they are doing the taunt animation or attack animation.
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Odin, yeah, I agree with that (I said it at one of my posts, I think).
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Someone know "kkrieger"?
3D fps game which size 96kb ...
Here the quality of the textures in-game :
(http://94.23.18.188/tremap/other/produkkt/kkriger.JPG)
Amazing.... http://www.theprodukkt.com/kkrieger
Release on years 2000
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I think it's still too beta to be trying it.
Also, if we were to switch to that engine, we would have absolutely NO support for low-graphics people. You can't even turn the settings down.
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Is that all procedurally generated?
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In kkrieger game I like that light effects when you shooting that big ball bombs with lights.
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Never worked on my PC.
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It was ok.
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I posted kkriger only for show an amazing graphique engine, not for switch to kkriger engine :p
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Is that all procedurally generated?
No, the textures are actually taken from DirectX's sample texture pack.
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Even though its 96kb, that doesn't mean it the game doesn't create hundreds of megabytes in the virtual memory just to create and display the data used in the game.
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KKrieger is a tech demo, it's not even remotely practicle for using in a game. It's extremely slow rendering, even with levels and models that have minimal detail.
I think Qfusion pretty much has everthing you are looking for, and would still be scalable for lower end systems. From what I understand IOQ3 is never going to be adding any hi end rendering fx, so you're gonna be stuck in 1999 visually with that engine.
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KKrieger is a tech demo, it's not even remotely practicle for using in a game. It's extremely slow rendering, even with levels and models that have minimal detail.
I think Qfusion pretty much has everthing you are looking for, and would still be scalable for lower end systems. From what I understand IOQ3 is never going to be adding any hi end rendering fx, so you're gonna be stuck in 1999 visually with that engine.
first of all ioq3 is strongly considering upgrading their graphics, and second of all qfusion doesn't look that different between my radeon 9250 and radeonhd 4670 (only differences are world outlines, bloom (which is ugly), and shadows, all 3 can be done without the fancy hardware)
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KKrieger is a tech demo, it's not even remotely practicle for using in a game. It's extremely slow rendering, even with levels and models that have minimal detail.
I think Qfusion pretty much has everthing you are looking for, and would still be scalable for lower end systems. From what I understand IOQ3 is never going to be adding any hi end rendering fx, so you're gonna be stuck in 1999 visually with that engine.
first of all ioq3 is strongly considering upgrading their graphics, and second of all qfusion doesn't look that different between my radeon 9250 and radeonhd 4670 (only differences are world outlines, bloom (which is ugly), and shadows, all 3 can be done without the fancy hardware)
I think it's because the GLSL renderer doesn't have much to offer over the older method. Shadows cannot be done without fancy hardware :).
In fact I think they still use Jal's CPU bloom.
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KKrieger is a tech demo, it's not even remotely practicle for using in a game. It's extremely slow rendering, even with levels and models that have minimal detail.
I think Qfusion pretty much has everthing you are looking for, and would still be scalable for lower end systems. From what I understand IOQ3 is never going to be adding any hi end rendering fx, so you're gonna be stuck in 1999 visually with that engine.
first of all ioq3 is strongly considering upgrading their graphics, and second of all qfusion doesn't look that different between my radeon 9250 and radeonhd 4670 (only differences are world outlines, bloom (which is ugly), and shadows, all 3 can be done without the fancy hardware)
I think it's because the GLSL renderer doesn't have much to offer over the older method. Shadows cannot be done without fancy hardware :).
In fact I think they still use Jal's CPU bloom.
So is it safe to assume that Jal's CPU Bloom is mostly/entirely rendered on the CPU? If so, why?
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KKrieger is a tech demo, it's not even remotely practicle for using in a game. It's extremely slow rendering, even with levels and models that have minimal detail.
I think Qfusion pretty much has everthing you are looking for, and would still be scalable for lower end systems. From what I understand IOQ3 is never going to be adding any hi end rendering fx, so you're gonna be stuck in 1999 visually with that engine.
first of all ioq3 is strongly considering upgrading their graphics, and second of all qfusion doesn't look that different between my radeon 9250 and radeonhd 4670 (only differences are world outlines, bloom (which is ugly), and shadows, all 3 can be done without the fancy hardware)
I think it's because the GLSL renderer doesn't have much to offer over the older method. Shadows cannot be done without fancy hardware :).
In fact I think they still use Jal's CPU bloom.
So is it safe to assume that Jal's CPU Bloom is mostly/entirely rendered on the CPU? If so, why?
Because it doesn't use any OpenGL calls really. The only things it uses are OpenGL texture stretching for working with the bloom frame.
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KKrieger is a tech demo, it's not even remotely practicle for using in a game. It's extremely slow rendering, even with levels and models that have minimal detail.
I think Qfusion pretty much has everthing you are looking for, and would still be scalable for lower end systems. From what I understand IOQ3 is never going to be adding any hi end rendering fx, so you're gonna be stuck in 1999 visually with that engine.
ioQ3 was aimed at fixing the stuff id didn't fix in the idTech3 source when they released it. It's actually a great advancement from Vanilla Q3.
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Just wondering about the md5 support..
Star Wars JK:JA used md5's am I correct?
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No. It was idTech3 through and through (despite the horrible things done to it).
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JK2 (and family) use their own skeletal model format called ghoul.
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KKrieger is a tech demo, it's not even remotely practicle for using in a game. It's extremely slow rendering, even with levels and models that have minimal detail.
I think Qfusion pretty much has everthing you are looking for, and would still be scalable for lower end systems. From what I understand IOQ3 is never going to be adding any hi end rendering fx, so you're gonna be stuck in 1999 visually with that engine.
first of all ioq3 is strongly considering upgrading their graphics, and second of all qfusion doesn't look that different between my radeon 9250 and radeonhd 4670 (only differences are world outlines, bloom (which is ugly), and shadows, all 3 can be done without the fancy hardware)
What about bumpmapping, specular mapping, parallax and offsetmapping, distortions, etc? :)
We didn't use them much at the last version cause we are still upgrading the media, but they are used at some maps. Of course QFusion will never look like XReal or those other engines. It could be said that XReal is to Doom3 what QFusion is to Source. Of course Source isn't the paradigm of rendering features, but when it comes down to making games it's a very practical choice.
I agree that the bloom is crappy. It was cool by then, but it sux compared to HDR which is the common filter now. I'm trying to convince Vic to implement it, but didn't get him convinced by now. :/
Anyway, if ioq3 implements the same thing (cause I asume they'd go with deluxemapping, not real time) plugging warsow's renderer into Trem isn't worth the work.
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It may be best to just write a upgraded renderer by hand because XreaL has deviated from ioQuake3 far too much.
There are a couple things that can be still used from XreaL such as MD5 support and VBOs.
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I think it's because the GLSL renderer doesn't have much to offer over the older method. Shadows cannot be done without fancy hardware :).
Are you kidding? GLSL has alot to offer over fixed function calls, not to mention speed.
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I think it's because the GLSL renderer doesn't have much to offer over the older method. Shadows cannot be done without fancy hardware :).
Are you kidding? GLSL has alot to offer over fixed function calls, not to mention speed.
Note how I said "the GLSL renderer". I was referring to QFusion, not GLSL in general.
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KKrieger is a tech demo, it's not even remotely practicle for using in a game. It's extremely slow rendering, even with levels and models that have minimal detail.
I think Qfusion pretty much has everthing you are looking for, and would still be scalable for lower end systems. From what I understand IOQ3 is never going to be adding any hi end rendering fx, so you're gonna be stuck in 1999 visually with that engine.
first of all ioq3 is strongly considering upgrading their graphics, and second of all qfusion doesn't look that different between my radeon 9250 and radeonhd 4670 (only differences are world outlines, bloom (which is ugly), and shadows, all 3 can be done without the fancy hardware)
What about bumpmapping, specular mapping, parallax and offsetmapping, distortions, etc? :)
We didn't use them much at the last version cause we are still upgrading the media, but they are used at some maps. Of course QFusion will never look like XReal or those other engines. It could be said that XReal is to Doom3 what QFusion is to Source. Of course Source isn't the paradigm of rendering features, but when it comes down to making games it's a very practical choice.
I agree that the bloom is crappy. It was cool by then, but it sux compared to HDR which is the common filter now. I'm trying to convince Vic to implement it, but didn't get him convinced by now. :/
Anyway, if ioq3 implements the same thing (cause I asume they'd go with deluxemapping, not real time) plugging warsow's renderer into Trem isn't worth the work.
HDR, something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67gG_wWSLGI)?
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That's probably one of the ugliest HDR implementations I've ever seen.
Coincidentally, XreaL has in my opinion one of the best looking HDR systems there is, and it looks better than what you see in commercial games these days. The only issue is that XreaL's HDR ((CURRENTLY)) requires a dx10 card to work properly, and iirc TR3B was doing something about that.
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That's probably one of the ugliest HDR implementations I've ever seen.
Coincidentally, XreaL has in my opinion one of the best looking HDR systems there is, and it looks better than what you see in commercial games these days. The only issue is that XreaL's HDR ((CURRENTLY)) requires a dx10 card to work properly, and iirc TR3B was doing something about that.
that and it requires a map format incompatible with q3bsp.
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Screw q3bsp and go for the new engine.
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Kevlarman: No, it was compatible with Q3BSP for some time before the HDR lightgrid. It can do HDR with LDR lightmaps, they just don't look as good.
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So about the water graphics.. I don't know hardly anything about it except that it probably uses a vertex-deform.
Digital Paintball 2 has water graphics that look very nice.
(http://digitalpaint.planetquake.gamespy.com/images/screenshots/build008_midnight204.jpg)
So what do you think?
I'd like to have this in my tremulous.
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^ Looks oily.
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whoops I didn't realize that that screenshot has the nice water features turned off. I'll post a better screenshot, just wait.
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Tremulous doesn't need a graphics overhaul. idTech3 looks marvelous for a 1999 game engine. I really don't know what everyone is complaining about.
In all realism, the most likely graphical update would be a port to idTech4 when that goes open source (probably later this year).
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I tend to agree. When caught up in a Trem game I seldom stop to notice the graphics. Frankly, the only time I give it any thought is when a friend will stop over, see Trem on the screen and go "that's some really dated graphics". At which I shrug. I'm not in it for the pretty colors.
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Personally I think map quality is the most important graphical element. Player models and buildables look fine when placed on a nice backdrop.
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IdTech4 is already dated, and it'll play slower then hell on older hardware because it doesn't have good scaleability.
As for the DP2 water, that is horrendously slow, as is any water that does realtime reflections, because you have to render the scene twice, or more in some cases. The fragment shaders are nice, and can be used for a nice effect minus the reflection. You'd be better off doing faked reflections like the UT engines.
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idTech3 can actually do that already with misc_portal_surface.
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We don't need another 3D engine!!!. All we need is money to create more complex animations, maps, alien classes, human models, weapons and structures. idTech3 is a very powerful engine in the hands of a skilled professional but to support a beast like this you need a lot of money (around 500.000 USD). This is not a joke.
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Ivan is right about one thing: It is not the engine that makes the game look good, but what you do with it. If we decide to use a new engine, all the media will have to be extended or redone to support the new features of the new engine.
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Ivan is right about one thing: It is not the engine that makes the game look good, but what you do with it. If we decide to use a new engine, all the media will have to be extended or redone to support the new features of the new engine.
So the real question is: would people utilize said new engine? I'm absolutely positive that if people get together to work on such a project, it will happen, somehow.
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No the real real question is: Do you find enough people with the skills and the spare time required to port tremulous (and at least some maps) to a different engine or else upgrade the engine with modern renderer features ?
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Actually, the really real realityquestion is: would it be worth the effort?
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Actually, the really real realityquestion is: would it be worth the effort?
What kind of a question is that? Upgraded Tremulous ANYTHING would be a Godsend right now.
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No the real real question is: Do you find enough people with the skills and the spare time required to upgrade the engine with modern renderer features ?
You. ;)
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Actually, the really real realityquestion is: would it be worth the effort?
And that's what's been under discussion in this thread since page 1 :)
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Actually, the really real realityquestion is: would it be worth the effort?
and the really real reality answer is: no
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But that doesn't stop us crazy people from doing it.
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and the really real reality answer is: no
Why?
But that doesn't stop us crazy people from doing it.
<3
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and the really real reality answer is: no
Why?
Because I say so! :P
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Because I say so! :P
XP Shut up!
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what's wrong with these graphics?
(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4288/shot0030i.jpg)
(http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8654/shot0029.jpg)
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They are extremely bright and no parralax mapping makes it look flat.
(http://quake2xp.quakedev.com/quake2xp_2/Effects/10.jpg)
and it's just quake 2.
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tbh they do have a point when it comes to whether its worth the effort, as graphics don't really mean that much, especially in a game that is designed to be fast paced, basically meaning if you stop to go 'ooh look at that sweet bump mapping' you'd be dead, and not having it makes no difference what so ever apart from keeping a lower system req.
If you want graphical fidelity you might as well use a new engine and port the 3d resources over rather than using a re-twinked 15 year old engine.
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if you stop to go 'ooh look at that sweet bump mapping' you'd be dead
What if I am a builder? :P
Trem isn't THAT fast paced. Of course if you compare it to CS or BFH, then yes, but compared to quake, trem isn't fast. Especially when you play 1.2, everything seem slow. And why improve graphics? To make game looks better which basically mean more players. When someone is thinking about downloading a game, he watches videos/screenshoots of it. When he see it's ugly 90% he won't even try it. Outdated engine = outdated game for 90% of possible trem players. As for keeping lower system req: as Amanieu stated few post earlier, everything special in xreal can be turned off so it looks like q3, why couldn't it be possible in trem?
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That's probably true; sad but true. I've had friends remark upon the dated graphics. If they stop to give the game a second look or even play on my rig for a few minutes, they enjoy it (these being people who play CS/UT/Quake usually). But Trem's learning curve is not inducive to nice first impressions. With "regular" shooters you can jump right in and start playing immediately. Not really so with Trem, there's stuff to be learned before you even understand what's going on. Perhaps nicer graphics may help mellow the first contact.
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People don't continue playing Trem because once you download it, you must do a lot of other things in order to enjoy full game. And you know what exactly you need to do, most of newbies don't know. That's why I believe it would be better to release 1.1.5 which would include backport, options in main menu, more user-friendly buy menu, internet as default source and features from svn like voip. Then thinking about gameplay changing and finally about graphical improvements.
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Especially when you play 1.2, everything seem slow.
OK, this reply is going totally offtopic but I had to quote this cause I feel like this so much when playing on devservers too. But I promise I won't continue offtopic :)
I've had friends remark upon the dated graphics.(these being people who play CS/UT/Quake usually).
All of them games with dated graphics? Even CS:S chooses deliberately to not use "state of the art" rendering. That's in a big part why Valve is the top seller, cause they priorize the games over the tech.
I'm never saying here Trem wouldn't benefit of some rendering improvements. All I try to point out is that rendering changes have to be chosen wisely. Going for "the most" is in no way the best option for a game like this one.
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Jal is right, most is not often best, but this engine could benefit visually from some pretty basic things.
If graphics didn't mean anything, we'd all still be playing Pong :)
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We do! It's called Wii Tennis nowadays! :)
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Pong has no gameplay to it.
There are lots of text only games that are very good, and are still played.
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Well all the rendering features are intended for artists to take advantage of, so it mainly depends on the quality of the artists you have.
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Well all the rendering features are intended for artists to take advantage of, so it mainly depends on the quality of the artists you have.
in other words, this is a waste of time :P
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But better technology attracts artists!
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But better technology attracts artists!
Sometimes, but not always. It's a bit of a gamble in that sense..
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c'mon Trem already has unique gameplay and it's 100% free. With an updated engine, 1.2 will be
shit.
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c'mon Trem already has unique gameplay and it's 100% free. With an updated engine, 1.2 will be shit.
You mean "The shit", or shitty? :D
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But better technology attracts artists!
Yeah, look at Nexuiz...
Or not.
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EPICNESS FOLLOWS:
(http://xserverx.com/forum/download/file.php?id=552)
Thread: Tremulous Xreal [Super Huge images 50 MB post] (http://xserverx.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1652)
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those screens from first post are pretty bright
http://xserverx.com/forum/download/file.php?id=553
And granger with "star" in it's eyes?
http://xserverx.com/forum/download/file.php?id=556
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I think that actually looks really cool. Especially this shot (http://xserverx.com/forum/download/file.php?id=541) of a grenade.
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Okay, now I'm confused.. how did they combine xreal into tremulous.. wasn't it supposed to take a long time and hard work and stuff?
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Okay, now I'm confused.. how did they combine xreal into tremulous.. wasn't it supposed to take a long time and hard work and stuff?
tremulous 1.1's engine is very close to stock ioq3.
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The human is made of plastic, but the shadows are beautiful. Dynamic lighting?
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Am I the only one who notices those shots show 10 fps each time there are 2 lights on screen?
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Am I the only one who notices those shots show 10 fps each time there are 2 lights on screen?
yes :P (also these shots are either darker than stock trem settings that people complain about constantly or rediculously washed out (even the parts that aren't bloomed))
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Am I the only one who notices those shots show 10 fps each time there are 2 lights on screen?
http://xserverx.com/forum/download/file.php?id=544
But even if we have tremor in xreal, there's no parralax or anything, those doens't show full xreal power.
The human is made of plastic, but the shadows are beautiful. Dynamic lighting?
Have you seen a human in current trem engine? They are made from closer unknown material. I prefer XReal's one :P
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Am I the only one who notices those shots show 10 fps each time there are 2 lights on screen?
Sex modded the qvm so lucis have speed 0, those 2 lights u see are really alot of lucis in the same place.
It look darker cuz HDR settings, i desactivate it and it looks fine just like trem talking about gamma.
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In order to attract more players we need "HOLLYWOOD STYLE" elements like:
barrels that explode when you shot
tyrants with infinite Nitrous Oxide trample
smoke grenades
Kalashnikov assault rifle(almost every fps have an Ak47/74!!!LOL)
Desert eagle .50
grenade launchers/rocket launchers
fast reload
railguns
light machine guns
power ups
bunny hopping and unlimited jump for humans
walljumping for humans
voice messages(Enemy down,cover me SPAM!)
all weapons with perfect accuracy
aliens with hacking skills
unlimited adv. goon barbs
optical camouflage
Multi language interface
and more thing that allow even a very very bad player to get at least 3 frags per game.
I hate Hollywood style from moderns games...
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???
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???
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I mean, people play videogames because are easy and face paced not for their per pixel lighting, ray tracing and others superb 3d effects. The difficulty of tremulous is one of the main reasons to step away "gamers" from playing.
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???
Sarkasm and Irony - a heavy treat.
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???
Sarkasm and Irony - a heavy treat.
???
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Personally I found Trem's steep learning curve quite the treat.
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That xreal trem is nice. Basic trem is only dark but xreal is creepy. I want to try it.
For all who don't want better graphic because <silly reasons here> : go to play ADOM:
(http://stasiarczyk.pl/img_gry/adom2.png)
It's a game without graphic and without sounds. And it's really good game.
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That looks awful like graphics to me...
Go play Mud.
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ASCII = INSTANT WIN
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Well, there is an ASCII (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nRPoS2WDJA) version of Quake II, so an ASCII Trem should be possible....
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SDL already supports it, however SDL_VIDEODRIVER=aalib causes trem to crash with "GLimp_Init() - could not load OpenGL subsystem" for me :(
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Have you set r_allowSoftwareGL to 1 ?
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http://easycaptures.com/6271478813
html file has 2,5 MB :P
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Awesomez! So exactly how do you do it?
/r_allowSoftwareGL 1
/SDL_VIDEODRIVER=aalib
?
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SDL_VIDEODRIVER is an envaroment variable, so you have to set it first. EG something like SDL_VIDEODRIVER="aalib" ./tremulous.x86
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Well, I switched back to windows if that was about linux. I just want to know what to typed in and where to type it..
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w8w8w8w8 ioq3 is going to be text game too:
http://ioquake3.org/2009/04/01/vi-oquake3/#more-159
(http://ioquake3.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/viq3.jpg)
:P
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Another reason why we might want a new engine? More gimmick/gameplay options. The ability to cut power to a door, or, as a human, to fuse wires and power it, or as an alien, to spit juice (or something) to create an electrical connection. Lights that can be powered? Better shadows on players so that you can actually hide in the dark (give the helmet the ability to outline alien forms)? A flashlight would be needed, and the only reason we don't have one is because the engine won't like it, and it's not needed on the current engine.
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Would you be able to put HDR (High Dynamic Range) in the the game using that engine?
If you can put HDR in that would be worth it to me.
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so has anyone gotten OpenGL to do ascii output of trem? id love to see a picture.
i would love to make a steampunk tremulous arcade thing with four crt moniters and wire up a custom keypad.
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Hello,
After several months of work and testing, we (Tremap) have several things come to you to show the beauty of the graphics engine and Xreal that possibility.
Parallax mapping :
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090711-021932-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090711-021932-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090711-023042-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090711-023042-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090711-030236-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090711-030236-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090711-235237-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090711-235237-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090711-235410-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090711-235410-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090711-235953-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090711-235953-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-001920-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-001920-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-005303-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-005303-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-011607-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-011607-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-022554-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-022554-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-022704-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-022704-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072311-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072311-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072312-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072312-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072315-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072315-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072317-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072317-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072319-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072319-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072325-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072325-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072329-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072329-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072341-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072341-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072408-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072408-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072319-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-072319-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090713-164055-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090713-164055-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090713-164058-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090713-164058-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090713-164136-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090713-164136-000.jpg)
Shadows possibilities :
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-180852-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-180852-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-174827-000_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xreal-20090712-174827-000.jpg)
(http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/fst-logo-new_1.jpg) (http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/fst-logo-new.jpg)
Shadows in Video :
http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xt_lib001.MP4
Video on the atmosphere of a map of tremulous completely in the dark (this video is made to show that a flashlight in tremulous) :
http://94.23.18.188/asche/xreal/xatf.avi.MP4
You can see the look "wet" disappeared except for the texture where is wanted.
The parallax mapping, though major consumer of resources makes the superb relief, and of course, the user can at will turn off this feature to avoid playing with 30 fps.
The engine Xreal should also include a physics engine to run well and the hitbox for the interaction between objects.
It also allows scripting of actions through the lua added to more games that can compete with commercial games.
Really, it would be good for Tremulous have a new rendering engine.
I want to thank Amanieu who started the port engine on Tremfusion, I hope that soon we will show you an overviews of the work done in mapping and the level model with bump and specular mapping on a tremulous gave nine .
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Xreal is so full of win, but I have to ask; whats the catch?
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In my opinion, visibility is important for a multiplayer game. This is just dark. It would be perfect for single player.
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the darkness is overused. if there were individual rooms with darkness, or maybe a section of hallway with no lighting, things would be a lot nicer.
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It doesn't seem to dark to me. >.>
A nice job overall though.
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Yep nice job with the 8fps.
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In which of the screenies did he have 8 fps?
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So 8fps it on video, and it is quite normal!
Do you ever try to un /video on a demo in tremulous? yes? no?
I think not, otherwise you would know that this is not the fluidity of the game in normal operation.
The principle of video is to make a screenshot of each frame to send any event within a video file that it will be in 25 frames per second.
as the games can not make screenshot 25/seconds (especially in the resolution I use: 1280 * 1024) it slowed the game 8fps to have the time to screenshot necessary and create a fluid movie.
So 8fps is quite normal.
As for the dark side, he is wanted in the video to show the effect, but in the final map, just a small part of the map might not have light, the rest would also clarify that the map for tremulous present!
Tell yourself that all this are only test, it does not create a room light for a test, it is already doing so.
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No offense but you really should have waited until you had a set of screenshots and a map that was at a higher standard than the average boxmap.
Also, with reliefmapping(parallax) mapping my fps drops to 40 ( 1024x768 ) on a 7600GT, between 10-15 depending on scene complexity at 1680x1050.
With just normalmapping enabled, I can average ~150fps everywhere (1680x1050). Yes, that's faster than tremulous even with normalmapping and HDR enabled.
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I understand, but we (Tremap) wanted to show that the proposed port was still active, we show you only follow, not a conclusion.
The parallax mapping can be it disabled and is not necessary to play happily:) the less powerful pc should be able to have a record of dynamic light and play properly:)
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It might have been smarter to take an existing tremulous map and port it to xreal then do the texture work, like I did with quake2world for the deluxemapping it was using.
http://ader008.titandsl.co.uk/thorn/q2w/quake2world46.jpg (http://ader008.titandsl.co.uk/thorn/q2w/quake2world46.jpg)
http://ader008.titandsl.co.uk/thorn/q2w/quake2world41.jpg (http://ader008.titandsl.co.uk/thorn/q2w/quake2world41.jpg)
http://ader008.titandsl.co.uk/thorn/q2w/quake2world55.jpg (http://ader008.titandsl.co.uk/thorn/q2w/quake2world55.jpg)
Shiny but eh, never got around to fixing that
You could take a more complex map, eg nexus/arachnid and port to xreal including all the textures, so that the community would see a clear example of xreals power.
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It is a good idea to convert a map in its entirety, ATCS is a good example.
I think I'll try the experiment:)
About your screens, I think the bumpmapping is not very pretty, Tremap that the difference is that we ourselves create the heightmap and texture normalmap, we do not use software that is this work for us automatically.
I think that the rendering of ATCS with a technical manual deluxemapping makes it much better.
I would like to test and post screen when I finished.
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ATCS is not a good example. If you really want to show it off, you should probably try Arachnid2.
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Too late...
The conversion of textures is already begin... I work all day so I will not stop everything and move to a map, which requires even more work !
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It is a good idea to convert a map in its entirety, ATCS is a good example.
I think I'll try the experiment:)
About your screens, I think the bumpmapping is not very pretty, Tremap that the difference is that we ourselves create the heightmap and texture normalmap, we do not use software that is this work for us automatically.
I think that the rendering of ATCS with a technical manual deluxemapping makes it much better.
I would like to test and post screen when I finished.
Actually you're entirely wrong.
Those normalmaps were hand drawn, the actual images are perfectly fine however limited to the resolution to ATCS texture sizes. The reason they look a bit off is because Q2W uses deluxe mapping, which is alot more inaccurate and tacky than Xreals relief mapping. If I were to use those in xreal ( and I have ) with the heightmap, they look much tider.
I did those textures and had that method before tremap even existed :P
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Sorry for my speedy trial.
Indeed, I look down the loan and the bump is handmade it is a certainty.
Of course the method of hand made normalmap date Tremap before we invent anything ^^
You know, the first time I saw the screens it was on the screen of my laptop, so difficult to realize :p
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The reason they look a bit off is because Q2W uses deluxe mapping, which is alot more inaccurate and tacky than Xreals relief mapping. If I were to use those in xreal ( and I have ) with the heightmap, they look much tider.
Deluxemapping and reliefmapping are not equivalents which can be compared :)
Anyway, I think I know what you mean. Let me see if I can put it right:
- Bumpmapping is a per-pixel technique to generate shadows to each pixel
- Reliefmapping is a per-pixel technique to generate volume (height, as in a terrain) to each pixel.
- Specular mapping is a per-pixel technique to generate light reflections to each pixel.
- Deluxemapping is a lightmap technique to store face-relative surface direction to each pixel which can be used to generate the bumpmapping shadows or the specular mapping reflections.
This means. XReal has bumpmapping which is generated to each pixel in real time, allowing the lights to dynamically change. It also allows to generate specular reflections from several light sources. It also has reliefmapping.
Quake2World has bumpmapping which is generated to each pixel from a precomputed deluxemap (a lightmap of directions). Not allowing lights to dynamically change nor being able to overlap several specular mapping sources. It also has reliefmapping? (I don't know if it does or not, but I guess so).
BTW, Deluxemapping is what Warsow uses too. Nexuiz uses it as default also, but optionally does both. XReal used to have optional deluxemapping too, dunno if it's still there.
The second method is much faster to render. The first is more complete.
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I just realized something.
Some people say if we upgrade the engine we will lose players because their lower graphics capabilities will make it impossible to play the game.
What I realized is that we will also get more, new players because they will be attracted to the glitzy graphics.
So it turns out that fun is actually a function of graphics quality.
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I just realized something.
Some people say if we upgrade the engine we will lose players because their lower graphics capabilities will make it impossible to play the game.
What I realized is that we will also get more, new players because they will be attracted to the glitzy graphics.
...and hardware gets older (and cheaper) too. Today's flashy tremulous graphics will be tommorow's ascetic. People who can (but will not) play Tremulous with higher requirements may reconsider once it's one of few games that work on their machine.
In a couple of places Tremulous has archaic limits. When I started playing on development servers I had to download a bunch of maps... with 3kb/s speed. On my 10 Mbit connection. I realize people still have slower connections, but this is getting silly. At the very least server should allow fullspeed downloads if there are no people playing at the moment.
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In a couple of places Tremulous has archaic limits. When I started playing on development servers I had to download a bunch of maps... with 3kb/s speed. On my 10 Mbit connection. I realize people still have slower connections, but this is getting silly. At the very least server should allow fullspeed downloads if there are no people playing at the moment.
This is your fault, not Tremulous'.
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In a couple of places Tremulous has archaic limits. When I started playing on development servers I had to download a bunch of maps... with 3kb/s speed. On my 10 Mbit connection. I realize people still have slower connections, but this is getting silly. At the very least server should allow fullspeed downloads if there are no people playing at the moment.
This is your fault, not Tremulous'.
That's the devs fault actually. You can download a client (Tremfusion springs to mind) that allows you to download maps at your full speed.
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In a couple of places Tremulous has archaic limits. When I started playing on development servers I had to download a bunch of maps... with 3kb/s speed. On my 10 Mbit connection. I realize people still have slower connections, but this is getting silly. At the very least server should allow fullspeed downloads if there are no people playing at the moment.
This is your fault, not Tremulous'.
That's the devs fault actually. You can download a client (Tremfusion springs to mind) that allows you to download maps at your full speed.
Ok, true. But if he is still using default client he can't really complain about issues like that.
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The reason they look a bit off is because Q2W uses deluxe mapping, which is alot more inaccurate and tacky than Xreals relief mapping. If I were to use those in xreal ( and I have ) with the heightmap, they look much tider.
Deluxemapping and reliefmapping are not equivalents which can be compared :)
Anyway, I think I know what you mean. Let me see if I can put it right:
- Bumpmapping is a per-pixel technique to generate shadows to each pixel
- Reliefmapping is a per-pixel technique to generate volume (height, as in a terrain) to each pixel.
- Specular mapping is a per-pixel technique to generate light reflections to each pixel.
- Deluxemapping is a lightmap technique to store face-relative surface direction to each pixel which can be used to generate the bumpmapping shadows or the specular mapping reflections.
This means. XReal has bumpmapping which is generated to each pixel in real time, allowing the lights to dynamically change. It also allows to generate specular reflections from several light sources. It also has reliefmapping.
Quake2World has bumpmapping which is generated to each pixel from a precomputed deluxemap (a lightmap of directions). Not allowing lights to dynamically change nor being able to overlap several specular mapping sources. It also has reliefmapping? (I don't know if it does or not, but I guess so).
BTW, Deluxemapping is what Warsow uses too. Nexuiz uses it as default also, but optionally does both. XReal used to have optional deluxemapping too, dunno if it's still there.
The second method is much faster to render. The first is more complete.
XreaL uses deluxemapping(by default) with high-resolution lightmaps. The difference between the lightmapping mode and the realtime mode(in a well-lit map) is almost indiscernible. The only places where you see a difference is where multiple lights are next to each other. This seems to throw off the map compiler and produce strange(but hard to see) results. Lightmap mode is also many times faster than the realtime rendering mode.
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Quake2World has bumpmapping which is generated to each pixel from a precomputed deluxemap (a lightmap of directions). Not allowing lights to dynamically change nor being able to overlap several specular mapping sources. It also has reliefmapping? (I don't know if it does or not, but I guess so).
parallax actually, from the heightmap in the alpha channel of the normal map.
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Parallax is just one of the many ways of applying reliefmapping. It has a cool-name-factor that made it more famous than the rest, but it's nothing else than reliefmapping done quick.
XreaL uses deluxemapping(by default) with high-resolution lightmaps. The difference between the lightmapping mode and the realtime mode(in a well-lit map) is almost indiscernible.
We (Warsow) and Nexuiz also use deluxemapping with high resolution lightmaps. And I can see the difference just by looking to a screenshot. The limitations don't actually affect the bumpmapping very much, but it's very clear when coming down to specular mapping. I'm not saying with this deluxemapping isn't the way to go. You can check this very same thread and you'll find myself recommending deluxemapping as the future for Tremulous against the people requesting real time rendering.
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Now, we know the difference between lighting methods. We only need an implementation that is fast, compatible and has a fallback mechanism.
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If you look through other MMOFPS and compare them graphically to Tremulous, you will quickly realise just how pretty Trem is.
No really, check AA. Disgusting.
(only Cube 2 is better, but it has no gameplay, 'cept for maybe slightly in the developing RPG side)
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Alien Arena? Yes, it is bad but not because of the engine.
What about Nexuiz, Warsow and maybe Quake2World ?
IMO, those are not bad.
What is your point? Tremulous doesn't need a new engine? I'd agree.
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Warsow sucks because no one put any thought into the maps, except that filterforge + boxmap = ???. Q2W sucks because it stole TRaK. Alien Arena sucks because it just does. Nexuiz sucks because I forgot why.
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Q2W sucks because it stole TRaK.
Those bastards! >:(
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Q2W sucks because it stole TRaK.
Those bastards! >:(
You can't, however, deny that TRaK made some pretty beautiful maps for Q2W.
http://trak.mercenariesguild.net/
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which is exactly why they are evil. >:(
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still, they are stunning in their evil beauty
imma missin him rite nao cuz i finally lissened to his musical suggestions, lawl
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Up !
Asche talked about remaking ATCS on Xreal... Still nothing? :o
I realy would like to see what does it look like :) the one made on q2w already looks nice :angel:
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q2w? eww
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q2w? eww
wtf?
bitter because you probably got raped the first time you tried to play it? :olo:
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q2w? eww
If you think q2w needs improving in some regard, please enlighten us :)
Although I suspect you're just acting like a douche by insulting the work others provide for free for your enjoyment.
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If something is provided for free, I shouldn't say something bad about it. It is free, I paid nothing, and I shouldn't have said something bad. Sorry fanboys I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.
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Well, he did ask for you to explain any basis behind your opinion. However as you seem to have no issues with the game, you're just being a moron. Although everybody knew this when you registered, thanks for re-clarifying. You (In another thread) insult a person directly(previous member of this forum too) by blatently calling them an asshole. Now, here in this thread you also directly disrepect an entire project and by so all the people that worked on it (Such as TRaK, right above).
What makes you think you are any less of an asshole than the person you considered an asshole? Is it by the same baseless reasoning that you insulted q2w? ;>
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slow down... I just said "eww" and you wrote full paragraph. I just don't like q2w and that is just my personal opinion.
Also know the difference between ass and asshole.(I hope you do ;))
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Explain why, or be willing to take crap from people who tire of miscommunication.
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Also know the difference between ass and asshole.(I hope you do ;))
Same blatant insult really..
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in the deep voice of our beloved tiM anguS:
You Got Trolled™
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Also know the difference between ass and asshole.(I hope you do ;))
Same blatant insult really..
To be a nitpick, last I checked, an ass is a fool, and an asshole is a jerk.
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Both insults originate from the same area, so are they not at least in the same insult "family"? :P
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Also know the difference between ass and asshole.(I hope you do ;))
Same blatant insult really..
To be a nitpick, last I checked, an ass is a fool, and an asshole is a jerk.
Last I checked an ass was a donkey unless you consider all donkey's fools in which case you are even worse than him, as you don't insult a person, nor a project, but an entire race!!
jesus Fucking christ (http://www.quake3world.com/forum/images/smilies/icon19.gif)
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Xrealmulous !
Or
TremulXreal !
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Hey guys, I have an idea - lets add Nvidia PhysX somehow on trem so we can make realistic smoke for human building and fluid effect acid tube :o , then we could make ragdolls and building that can be destroyed in style. Then we could make human ragdolls that can be teared in pieces with the cloth system in PhysX! Then we could make tremulous something like, that only NASAs computers will be able to run.
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Trem will probably (and hopefully) never contain any proprietary code. There are open source physics engines like bullet tho.
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Trem will probably (and hopefully) never contain any proprietary code. There are open source physics engines like bullet tho.
on tremfusions TODO list :)
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Independent designers, get to work!
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Quake2World engine is a fucking joke.
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Hey guys, I have an idea - lets add Nvidia PhysX somehow on trem so we can make realistic smoke for human building and fluid effect acid tube :o , then we could make ragdolls and building that can be destroyed in style. Then we could make human ragdolls that can be teared in pieces with the cloth system in PhysX! Then we could make tremulous something like, that only NASAs computers will be able to run.
*Sarcasm*
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Quake2World engine is a fucking joke.
It could be worse. It could be DarkPlaces. Ohi
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I think that after 9 pages of discussing the meaning of ass, this thread is finally dead.
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Good, because now everyone will know that making a new engine for tremulous is fucking useless!!! Even more useless is making such topics!!! Eat shit and die!
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Quake2World engine is a fucking joke.
If that's the case then IOQ3 is an even bigger one. Seriously, Q2W is a sweet engine that looks and runs a hell of alot better than IOQ3.
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Quake2World engine is a fucking joke.
If that's the case then IOQ3 is an even bigger one. Seriously, Q2W is a sweet engine that looks and runs a hell of alot better than IOQ3.
cool story bro
But you should really stop taking those drugs.
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Good, because now everyone will know that making a new engine for tremulous is fucking useless!!! Even more useless is making such topics!!! Eat shit and die!
Well, I wouldn't call it useless, there are a few points for an updated renderer:
- the current renderer uses many OpenGL function which are officially deprecated since OpenGL 3.1. While they are currently still supported by all drivers, there is no guarantee that the vendors will support them indefinitely.
- the current renderer doesn't utilize the power of modern GPUs. It uses only the fixed pipeline without programmable shaders and uses mainly the ROPs to implement the shaders. It wasn't unusual for a year 2000 GPU to have 4 fragment shaders and 4 ROPs. Todays top DirectX 10/11 cards have 16-32 ROPs, but they have several hundreds of Fragment shaders. As the renderer assumes more or less a 1:1 relation between Shaders and ROPs, most of the power of the GPU is wasted.
- GPUs are very parallel, but they can essentially process only one program on all shaders at a time. So to get good speed you have to render a large number of vertexes with the same shader. Unfortunately the current engine renders the scene with hundreds of different shaders which are responsible for only a few surfaces.
But changing these points will require to remake all models, maps etc. so probably it's simply out of scope for the Trem community.
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Good, because now everyone will know that making a new engine for tremulous is fucking useless!!! Even more useless is making such topics!!! Eat shit and die!
Well, I wouldn't call it useless, there are a few points for an updated renderer:
- the current renderer uses many OpenGL function which are officially deprecated since OpenGL 3.1. While they are currently still supported by all drivers, there is no guarantee that the vendors will support them indefinitely.
- the current renderer doesn't utilize the power of modern GPUs. It uses only the fixed pipeline without programmable shaders and uses mainly the ROPs to implement the shaders. It wasn't unusual for a year 2000 GPU to have 4 fragment shaders and 4 ROPs. Todays top DirectX 10/11 cards have 16-32 ROPs, but they have several hundreds of Fragment shaders. As the renderer assumes more or less a 1:1 relation between Shaders and ROPs, most of the power of the GPU is wasted.
- GPUs are very parallel, but they can essentially process only one program on all shaders at a time. So to get good speed you have to render a large number of vertexes with the same shader. Unfortunately the current engine renders the scene with hundreds of different shaders which are responsible for only a few surfaces.
But changing these points will require to remake all models, maps etc. so probably it's simply out of scope for the Trem community.
1st - I don't understand almost fifth word in your text you wrote
2nd - old engine = can be run on old computers and these engines can be updated slightly
3rd - new engine = can only be run by hig-end computers ending in less players
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Quake2World engine is a fucking joke.
If that's the case then IOQ3 is an even bigger one. Seriously, Q2W is a sweet engine that looks and runs a hell of alot better than IOQ3.
cool story bro
But you should really stop taking those drugs.
You're crazy if you think IOQ3 renders better than Q2W. It's at least 5x faster, and makes use of per-pixel lighting effects, IOQ3 still has 1999 era lighting fx. Not that Q2W is an option, I'm just saying.
But, here you have Xreal, which would make PERFECT sense to switch to. I guess if everyone is happy with ancient gfx, then by all means, stick with IOq3. Or, why not add some per-pixel stuff to IOQ3? It can't be THAT hard to do. It would really improve things alot.
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1st - I don't understand almost fifth word in your text you wrote
That's your problem.
If you don't understand what he said, then you shouldn't be arguing in this topic.
Anyways, I think it would be nice to have the capabilities to update graphics, but I know it's unlikely.
A major argument against the update that I have seen is: "Oh, but what about low end computers?"
It's not like ioq3 runs particularly well on low end machines. Even some modern engines perform better.
I installed Trem on a Pentium 4, onboard Intel running Linux.
Tremulous wasn't even playable.
Now, I know this is purely an argument in futility, but I would still like to see some improvements that could possibly give draw to some better mappers/modelers/etc.
A good looking game can get a lot of players no matter what.
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1st - I don't understand almost fifth word in your text you wrote
A major argument against the update that I have seen is: "Oh, but what about low end computers?"
It's not like ioq3 runs particularly well on low end machines. Even some modern engines perform better.
I installed Trem on a Pentium 4, onboard Intel running Linux.
Tremulous wasn't even playable.
intel hardware and drivers are trash. and as amanieu will tell you, making the engine use vertex buffers will actually hurt your fps on intel.
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1st - I don't understand almost fifth word in your text you wrote
A major argument against the update that I have seen is: "Oh, but what about low end computers?"
It's not like ioq3 runs particularly well on low end machines. Even some modern engines perform better.
I installed Trem on a Pentium 4, onboard Intel running Linux.
Tremulous wasn't even playable.
intel hardware and drivers are trash. and as amanieu will tell you, making the engine use vertex buffers will actually hurt your fps on intel.
They don't run your software X so they must be trash, even if they run software Y. Software Y developers are known hackers anyway
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1st - I don't understand almost fifth word in your text you wrote
A major argument against the update that I have seen is: "Oh, but what about low end computers?"
It's not like ioq3 runs particularly well on low end machines. Even some modern engines perform better.
I installed Trem on a Pentium 4, onboard Intel running Linux.
Tremulous wasn't even playable.
intel hardware and drivers are trash. and as amanieu will tell you, making the engine use vertex buffers will actually hurt your fps on intel.
They don't run your software X so they must be trash, even if they run software Y. Software Y developers are known hackers anyway
Well see, take a look at the title of this forum.
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1st - I don't understand almost fifth word in your text you wrote
That's your problem.
If you don't understand what he said, then you shouldn't be arguing in this topic.
My problem? I don't have any fucking problem!!! You are sitting here and whinning that trem needs a new egnine! The current engine hasn't vevn been hit to the max! I do not choose games by graphic and that's one of the reason why I play tremulous. If we change the engine to something really badass with allkind of HDR effects and other shit, we will have full servers of 8 years old kids. It could get even worse if Voice chat (microphone) would become like an official release. You will just lose loads of players! BULLSHIT TOPIC!!! You guys know nothing on how to gain players for games, because all you want is some gameplay and super-awesome graphic. Blow it out your ass.
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1st - I don't understand almost fifth word in your text you wrote
That's your problem.
If you don't understand what he said, then you shouldn't be arguing in this topic.
My problem? I don't have any fucking problem!!! You are sitting here and whinning that trem needs a new egnine! The current engine hasn't vevn been hit to the max! I do not choose games by graphic and that's one of the reason why I play tremulous. If we change the engine to something really badass with allkind of HDR effects and other shit, we will have full servers of 8 years old kids[/size]. It could get even worse if Voice chat (microphone) would become like an official release. You will just lose loads of players! BULLSHIT TOPIC!!! You guys know nothing on how to gain players for games, because all you want is some gameplay and super-awesome graphic. Blow it out your ass.
I guess ioq3 didn't stop them.
What gimhael said is that soon trem wouldn't work on newer computers and that it didn't use full potential of them. It will soon become a floppy disc - no modern computer supports them.
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1st - I don't understand almost fifth word in your text you wrote
A major argument against the update that I have seen is: "Oh, but what about low end computers?"
It's not like ioq3 runs particularly well on low end machines. Even some modern engines perform better.
I installed Trem on a Pentium 4, onboard Intel running Linux.
Tremulous wasn't even playable.
intel hardware and drivers are trash. and as amanieu will tell you, making the engine use vertex buffers will actually hurt your fps on intel.
They don't run your software X so they must be trash, even if they run software Y. Software Y developers are known hackers anyway
If you have no clue whatsoever about a topic: shut up.
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Most people seem to forget that there are graphics settings, which allow you to adjust the level of detail to something that can run on your computer.
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Most people seem to forget that there are graphics settings, which allow you to adjust the level of detail to something that can run on your computer.
And to slightly increase performance of the game you can also turn down sound quality :P but yes graphics settings is very useful :]
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The full team devs have done little more in 1.2 than what trem x did (and even trem x had new models,skins etc)from what I can tell (ie a handful of gameplay changes). And trem x was released YEARS ago. I think the real issue with engine porting is that the devs cbf redoing it for another engine.
You can argue about all the pros/cons of a new engine, but if the devs cbf doing it, then it will never happen.
As for the actual topic at hand, I dont think it is so much the actual engine thats the problem (although is certainly IS dated), I think its the actual maps being made for it. Look at pulse, even the default maps pale in comparison in terms of beauty. Also, the models could use a decent upgrade, and from what I saw in some youtube vids and concept art, maybe that will happen for 1.2 full release.
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1st - I don't understand almost fifth word in your text you wrote
That's your problem.
If you don't understand what he said, then you shouldn't be arguing in this topic.
My problem? I don't have any fucking problem!!! You are sitting here and whinning that trem needs a new egnine! The current engine hasn't vevn been hit to the max! I do not choose games by graphic and that's one of the reason why I play tremulous. If we change the engine to something really badass with allkind of HDR effects and other shit, we will have full servers of 8 years old kids. It could get even worse if Voice chat (microphone) would become like an official release. You will just lose loads of players! BULLSHIT TOPIC!!! You guys know nothing on how to gain players for games, because all you want is some gameplay and super-awesome graphic. Blow it out your ass.
Ohhh boy.... Ok read your sentances over again please. "we will have full servers of 8 year old kids" and "you will just lose loads of players". If you could make up your mind and not yell in bold maybe people would take you seriously. You also didn't understand what he said, he was saying if you can't understand someone talking about a graphics engine than you probably shouldn't be involved in talks about a graphics engine. The fact that you misunderstood this makes me start to agree with him more. You also started going off swearing and cursing seemingly randomly, so get overyourself. Finally, your replies don't make any sense at all compared to what people had been talking about, because they wern't talking about getting some super engine and getting rid of old players. READ what people say before you comment. Finally, as noted previously, even if this did happen, which it won't, there are settings which can be turned down.
In summary, take a deep breath, calm down, and maybe follow his advice.
Oh also, "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? I DON'T HAVE A FUCKING PROBLEM YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE SHUT THE FUCK UP."
And @Nubcake, all I can say is you ought to read the thread you're posting in.
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1st - I don't understand almost fifth word in your text you wrote
That's your problem.
If you don't understand what he said, then you shouldn't be arguing in this topic.
My problem? I don't have any fucking problem!!! You are sitting here and whinning that trem needs a new egnine! The current engine hasn't vevn been hit to the max! I do not choose games by graphic and that's one of the reason why I play tremulous. If we change the engine to something really badass with allkind of HDR effects and other shit, we will have full servers of 8 years old kids. It could get even worse if Voice chat (microphone) would become like an official release. You will just lose loads of players! BULLSHIT TOPIC!!! You guys know nothing on how to gain players for games, because all you want is some gameplay and super-awesome graphic. Blow it out your ass.
Ohhh boy.... Ok read your sentances over again please. "we will have full servers of 8 year old kids" and "you will just lose loads of players". If you could make up your mind and not yell in bold maybe people would take you seriously. You also didn't understand what he said, he was saying if you can't understand someone talking about a graphics engine than you probably shouldn't be involved in talks about a graphics engine. The fact that you misunderstood this makes me start to agree with him more. You also started going off swearing and cursing seemingly randomly, so get overyourself. Finally, your replies don't make any sense at all compared to what people had been talking about, because they wern't talking about getting some super engine and getting rid of old players. READ what people say before you comment. Finally, as noted previously, even if this did happen, which it won't, there are settings which can be turned down.
In summary, take a deep breath, calm down, and maybe follow his advice.
Oh also, "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? I DON'T HAVE A FUCKING PROBLEM YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE SHUT THE FUCK UP."
And @Nubcake, all I can say is you ought to read the thread you're posting in.
I didn't says so much ''fuck'' and I didn't say ''asshole''
Ok guys make tremulous with Crysis graphics, because then even on lowest settings most of players won't be able to play this game. I don't care because it's none of my bussines. Ahhh... I wish that there would be a rule:
Do not make topics about that tremulous needs new engine and $#!T.
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Look at pulse, even the default maps pale in comparison in terms of beauty.
Sadly, pulse has a serious and fatal flaw which makes public games pretty much unplayable. Don't get me wrong, I love pulse, a fun and beautiful map and needs a single nobuild square to fix it :(
Any mapper up to giving it a try?
http://code.google.com/p/pulsemap/source/checkout
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Ok guys make tremulous with Crysis graphics, because then even on lowest settings most of players won't be able to play this game. I don't care because it's none of my bussines. Ahhh... I wish that there would be a rule:
Do not make topics about that tremulous needs new engine and $#!T.
Xreal supports texture compression, and VBOs, and at the lowest settings, it looks as ugly as tremulous, and runs faster than tremulous.
Crysis at low setting still use lots of heavy features, but on Xreal everything can be shut down (if you don't believe me ask Pitbull, he knows how to shut this thing down)
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Did I say Xreal? I said Crysis, Crysis means Cryengine 2. Ok then lets make trem on Xreal if it is so good. You will se alot of bugs and compability issues when porting. I do NOT care if the porting is already started, look how long it is taking. *sarcasm* OH NO WHAT DO WE DO! we all are gonna die of old age and then trem will be ported to Xreal. *sarcasm* HELP THE DEVS not just sit here and have some chit chat. You may have breaks every 30 minutes, you must report what have you done once in 2 weeks. Move it soldier. Anyobdy who said something against the new egnine idea may not participate in the development.
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I endured reading this 10 page thread so I am going to toss out my opinion.
Why not use the Blender Game engine ?
It has such to easy to use interface,
it would be extremely easy to lower down the graphics quality for older computers with only a few simple changes,
it's overall a great idea in my opinion.
If anybody disagrees tell me why,
I know how to use Blender pretty well and only see a few issues.
I can get it to the point that you have a human running around,
aliens, walk cycles for each of them, damage, weapons,
nice lighting and those "Entities" like doors, lava and junk are extremely easy to do.
I don't know how to code but I can get it to that point easily enough,
the engine seems to run quickly enough, yes it does slow down older computers but just swap out high res textures with lower ones, disable GLSL lighting and some other eye candy.
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I don't recall if I've ever expressed these sentiments before, but any discussion of other engines is really an academic exercise. Moving to a different engine basically entails a complete rewrite and (I hope) is obviously not something we want or have the time to do. The only realistic option for better graphics (which seems to be the main motivation for this thread) is to use something based on Q3 like XReaL or the UrT renderer.
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UrT lol
Not using BGE, because it has nothing to do with Id tech (so no map formats support) and it's not realy powerful at this moment.
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@jm82792 Heh beat me to it.
@Timbo Aren't most of tremulous' models made in blender?
@Drag222 BGE does support both the import and export of quake 3 files, which you seem to be referring to, (like .md3) you just have to google the python modules necessary and download them. It natively exports to a Quake 3 .map, and to import Quake 3 .map look here :
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=527183 (http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=527183)
huh?
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Maps aren't models. Treating them as such is a quick way to have zero performance. Blender would never work for something like this.
And the could (could be) written in notepad. Lets use notepad as an engine!
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So basically what you are saying is that it would be nice but it doesn't have enough specialization or focus(somewhat within the analogy of a PC against game console) in the handling of a map as a map not a model.
Now that you mentioned that I noticed on my computer I'm only getting 30 FPS on Yo Frankie.
That is a bummer since BGE is otherwise a great idea.
If the engine is ever upgraded I can do a lot of stuff in Blender,
I've been using it for almost 2 years.
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This has probably been mentioned somewhere earlier, but xreal includes a tremulous techdemo.
It doesn't look too great since the media isn't made for xreal, but the lightning and the shadows are pretty sleek.
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Yeah BGE is painfully slow right now, even with their "enhancements".
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Well with Trem when I'm running everything at maximum quality at 1920X1080 resolution I'm going down to 50 FPS from my 90FPS. That is with a Q9400 2.66 Quad Core 2 with a not too shabby 512MB ATI Radeon HD3450 that I slightly over clocked.
BGE with Yo Frankie(with all it's capabilities, max quality) is 18FPS,
and it's way better looking(too organic obviously) than Trem at
it's highest quality.
Basically what I'm concluding is that if I had a better graphics card I'd get 30 FPS,
along with some improvements that we could hopefully see in a years time it could be a possibility.
I did read about Quake, it's interesting on how it renders and possibly in the future this could a plausible option if it's not already ported and if BGE has became quicker.
However getting it to BGE is the easy part,
getting it to work with lots of coding online is a probably the worst part.
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BGE is just so easy, it's tempting to me. It exports to practically anything, and it runs on more OS's than trem does now (solaris, irix, w/e).
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trem runs just fine on solaris, and there are patches for irix.
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lol
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Sadly, pulse has a serious and fatal flaw which makes public games pretty much unplayable. Don't get me wrong, I love pulse, a fun and beautiful map and needs a single nobuild square to fix it :(
Any mapper up to giving it a try?
http://code.google.com/p/pulsemap/source/checkout
AFAIK Taiyo is in the process of remaking pulse. :)
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Sadly, pulse has a serious and fatal flaw which makes public games pretty much unplayable. Don't get me wrong, I love pulse, a fun and beautiful map and needs a single nobuild square to fix it :(
Any mapper up to giving it a try?
http://code.google.com/p/pulsemap/source/checkout
AFAIK Taiyo is in the process of remaking pulse. :)
hope so i do <3 that map but it has several pitfalls(humans have a very hard time setting up)
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trem runs just fine on solaris, and there are patches for irix.
...stand corrected.
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And even if it wasn't posible to run it either at solaris nor irix, what would it matter? That's not a serious reason to pick an engine at all.
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And even if it wasn't posible to run it either at solaris nor irix, what would it matter? That's not a serious reason to pick an engine at all.
Never underestimate the masses who want to play at work.
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And even if it wasn't posible to run it either at solaris nor irix, what would it matter? That's not a serious reason to pick an engine at all.
One of Trem's biggest selling points is its cross-platform paradigm. That is a serious reason to pick an engine. (For instance, I only play it because I'm stuck on an ubuntu distro, so I may as well get into it)
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Supporting linux mac and windows is a requirement. How many people want to play games on solaris or irix? How many of those boxes even have the necessary hardware and software? Obviously some people do as the patches exist, but it gets to a point where it's not worth the effort.
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I agree it's not worth it.
We need to realize that the majority needs to be served first.
People with old computers won't have them for much longer.
Quad core desktops will hit $500 soon enough,
a new game engine is a wise idea to say the least.
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Just for the record, if we switched to XreaL right now it would not require re-doing all the artwork for the game. Having a per-pixel renderer does not mean you have to utilize all the features. Adding (real) dynamic lighting and shadows would make trem look and play nicer(flashlights anyone?). One game that is based on the idtech3 engine, True Combat: Elite(a mod of Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory), had a fake(but stunning, nonetheless) hdr implementation that made its environments realistic looking even without per-pixel rendering.
The only issue I can see with dynamically lighting textures with baked-in shadows and highlights(100% of the media in trem) is overbrightening when its close to a light source. If proper normalmaps, heightmaps, specularmaps, etc are used it minimizes the realization of a fake environment, but it's worse with totally static textures.
The artwork could be re-done later on(or we could steal the normalmaps etc from Nexuiz since they use the same texture sets as we do) after the switch. It would only require writing materials which is hardly a problem(XreaL can generate them if needed).
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Odin, imho this is what this game -really- needs.
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This has been suggested many, many times. French community wants to split and port, please do so (insert Quebec joke here).
Also, I think XReal looks like a piece of shit. Everything looks wet, overly shiny, and ugly as anything.
COMLETLY AGREE DUDE
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This has been suggested many, many times. French community wants to split and port, please do so (insert Quebec joke here).
Also, I think XReal looks like a piece of shit. Everything looks wet, overly shiny, and ugly as anything.
COMLETLY AGREE DUDE
Finally somebody who actually use their eyes and head, not just like this:
- Oh cool HDR effects, I know they are cool because it's only for top-notch games
- Oh it also has reflective water, awesome, Crysis also had these (Crysis was a game that's main goal was to show off CryEngine 2, therefore the game was a complete failure due to the AI and other shit)
- Wow, look at the textures and the extreme model detail! They look so real!
- There is much used Bloom and Motion blur - only the best comps can run it, that's why it is cool
- Wait a minute, all this shit doesn't even look realistic, BUT I STILL LIKE IT, because it has great graphics.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM7kz9t-sMk
Yes it's xReal. This engine can make your pants wet when used properly.
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That is very impressive, however 99% of the xreal vids I see look like pure shit.
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99% of foss 'art' is shit. What is your point?
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My point is that unless trem gets a team of artists who have a lot of time to spend on this, it'll look shit too.
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Not necessarily true. If the XreaL engine were used you could get the benefit of shadowing and other various effects not in ioquake3, and the new artwork could be made gradually.
Didn't I already go into this before?
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Finally somebody who actually use their eyes and head, not just like this:
Wow, somebody who used neither their eyes or their head. I am impressed.
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When a NOOB uses a great tool, any tool they push a lot of noob "do cool stuff without work" buttons.
Be it Maya, Bojou 3d tracker or whatever.
Xreal is another example,
tons of advanced features and they are using them without talent or much thought.
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so you waste your one year to port Tremulous to some awesomely cool engine. Then you realize that there are no good artists willing to re-make the models and textures for free. Now your Tremulous looks the same, other than some funny looking shiny textures.
FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
You can skip the shininess altogether if you want with a material like this:
models/players/human_base/base
{
diffuseMap models/players/human_base/base
}
Like I said a thousand times already: switching to xreal does NOT require you to re-do everything!
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ONE) Crava's trollin'.
TWO) I think the argument is: "Why port ([to IdTech4 1] if we're not going to take full advantage of the new engine[skeletal animation AND bumpmapping AND dynamic lights AND map scripting 2]?"
1 EXAMPLE
2 EXAMPLE
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support for new features can be added later. also newer engines use far newer techniques and may provide better performance after being ported (the opposite can be true too)
IDTech4 isnt an option till it gets opensourced which doesn't seem to be happening
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support for new features can be added later. also newer engines use far newer techniques and may provide better performance after being ported (the opposite can be true too)
IDTech4 isnt an option till it gets opensourced which doesn't seem to be happening
1 EXAMPLE
2 EXAMPLE
WHY DON'T PEOPLE READ POSTS ON THIS FORUM!?
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ONE) Crava's trollin'.
TWO) I think the argument is: "Why port ([to IdTech4 1] if we're not going to take full advantage of the new engine[skeletal animation AND bumpmapping AND dynamic lights AND map scripting 2]?"
1 EXAMPLE
2 EXAMPLE
Because even "not full advantage" would be an advantage?
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The big problem is that when you port to another engine you cannot simply take all the data with you. Every new engine, even Xreal means that maps, shaders etc. have to be adapted. And having skeletal animation doesn't help if all models are in MD3 format.
On the other hand there are good programmers in the Trem community. So there is potential to improve the engine and there are projects (e.g. AMP) that should be finished and merged into the baseline Trem. The Q3 engine will never be able to compete with Crysis, but I work on a fully compatible bumpmapping (http://picasaweb.google.com/112588342412119734502/TremulousBumpmaps#) patch in my spare time and I have also some ideas how to improve the dynamic lights.
PS: The bumpmaps in the screenshots have been generated with the gimp normalmap plugin, a good artist could probably make better ones.
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bumpmapping (http://picasaweb.google.com/112588342412119734502/TremulousBumpmaps#) patch in my spare time and I have also some ideas how to improve the dynamic lights.
It looks very nice :o ::) .
It should definitely be in Trem 1.2!!
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Woah, extremely nice, especially eggs and booster look sexy. Though FPS are a little bit scary :P
If you think that looks nice probably it is time to buy a good game.
IMO it looks cheesy
If you think it looks cheesy it's time to turn off the computer and check out how cheese looks like.
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...there are projects (e.g. AMP) that should be finished and merged into the baseline Trem...
YES PLEASE
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The development of AMP and friends has been relatively quick because they are largely code based; they give mappers more versatile ways to use the current assets instead of improving the graphics. As such it doesn't require a huge art overhaul to be put to good use. However, changing the engine for XreaL or similar just isn't worth the effort without the associated asset upgrade to make use of it's updated renderer. Using XreaL with the current assets will not improve the graphics*, and it'll incur a performance hit on those with older hardware. Unfortunately Thorn is right about the asset situation - there are precious few examples of FOSS game assets which come close to the level of those of good commercial titles. That's unlikely to change unless the FOSS crowd can find the teams of expensive professional artists that game development houses employ today.
* Flat shininess doesn't count.
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The development of AMP and friends has been relatively quick because they are largely code based; they give mappers more versatile ways to use the current assets instead of improving the graphics. As such it doesn't require a huge art overhaul to be put to good use. However, changing the engine for XreaL or similar just isn't worth the effort without the associated asset upgrade to make use of it's updated renderer. Using XreaL with the current assets will not improve the graphics*, and it'll incur a performance hit on those with older hardware. Unfortunately Thorn is right about the asset situation - there are precious few examples of FOSS game assets which come close to the level of those of good commercial titles. That's unlikely to change unless the FOSS crowd can find the teams of expensive professional artists that game development houses employ today.
* Flat shininess doesn't count.
Ok, no one produces new assets, so we don't need to improve the engine. And as long as we keep the old engine, certainly no one produces new assets. Sounds like Chicken & Egg to me. So we need an engine that can use the old assets and run on the same old hardware, but can also use new/better assets on more potent hardware. Unfortunately that engine does not exist.
If you think that looks nice probably it is time to buy a good game.
IMO it looks cheesy
Yes, I own some newer games like Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age (don't know if you consider them good or not, I buy most BioWare games). I agree that they look better, but then they don't really run smooth on my GeForce 6 either.
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Using XreaL with the current assets will not improve the graphics*, and it'll incur a performance hit on those with older hardware.
The irony is that new-ish hardware takes as much of a performance hit in q3 as old harware does for newer games. In a *case specific* example I have a Geforce 260gtx, dual core 3ghz, 4GB RAM, can run UT3 at full settings on HUGE/detailed maps, left4dead2 with a hundred zombies, but itll be dammed playing Transit with 20 players on a 10 year old engine (I still get 70fps, but a noticable drop in FPS). Also given that 1.2 is probably another decade off anyways, alof of users might have upgraded by then, given that the average system now is alot beefier than when trem was released.
Perhaps devs could put up a poll to let users give there specs? Ie low (single core 2ghz or less, Geforce 5200 or less) - mid (single core 3ghz to dual core 3 ghz) - high (Quad cores etc).
As a mapper I often feel limited to corridor, brown corridor, grey corridor,, base, corridor etc because the Q3 engine is lmited. I would LOVE to make a forrest type map like from Alien vs predator games, or a really detailed military base, or series of caves, but with this engine it aint gunna happen. And that makes Nubcake sad :(
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That's really not a fair poll considering a dual core 3ghz proc can be ~6 times faster than a single core 3ghz. On top of that, trem couldn't care if you have 256 cores running at 3ghz.
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well the tremulous team doesnt have to port the game to another engine because its opensource anyone can give it a shot i doubt though that anyone will
maybe when if idtech4 is released something like that will happen i know xreal is another good option but its very similar to idech3 if the time was put in i would like a newer engine also tremfusiuon is doing a port kinda in that they are trying to replace q3 renderer with xreals renderer not to mention someones partially ported trem to their svn already(playable but extremely dark when i tried also low fps but still smooth)
/me wonders if idtech4 suffers from noob mappers using textures off other maps so when you get 1 map but not other textures missing :/ i hate that
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That's really not a fair poll considering a dual core 3ghz proc can be ~6 times faster than a single core 3ghz. On top of that, trem couldn't care if you have 256 cores running at 3ghz.
It was an example, also trem doesnt care NOW cos of the engine it uses. Hence why an engine upgrade would be nice
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That's really not a fair poll considering a dual core 3ghz proc can be ~6 times faster than a single core 3ghz. On top of that, trem couldn't care if you have 256 cores running at 3ghz.
It was an example, also trem doesnt care NOW cos of the engine it uses. Hence why an engine upgrade would be nice
XreaL is still very single-threaded.
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Ok, no one produces new assets, so we don't need to improve the engine. And as long as we keep the old engine, certainly no one produces new assets. Sounds like Chicken & Egg to me. So we need an engine that can use the old assets and run on the same old hardware, but can also use new/better assets on more potent hardware. Unfortunately that engine does not exist.
I think it's more of a case where the work and extended release cycle incurred by porting trem to a new engine isn't very appealing if the end result is not a substantial improvement over the current version. I really don't think that "If you build it they will come" applies here very much - aside from mapping, the core assets have remained almost unchanged throughout the 1.1 release.
@thorn: Massively parallel trem would be nice. Is IOQ3/XreaL multithreadable?
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