UnTrem

[Cadynum]

I don't personally like it either but is it really a big deal?

[Kiwi]

Lol, I've never really noticed the deathcam.  It's really not a big deal at all.  If you guys tried playing GPP for a bit, I'm sure most of you will end up liking it more than you think you will.

[A Spork]

Lol, I've never really noticed the deathcam.  It's really not a big deal at all.  If you guys tried playing GPP for a bit, I'm sure most of you will end up liking it more than you think you will.

QFT!

[CATAHA]

Nice troll attempt Meiss. English not my native language at all, i noticed it many times. Or you just cant understand what im talking about? Seems you cant since you again quoting same shit as before. I played last stage of 1.2 trem and when i talking about 1.2 i talking about LAST stage. But still SAME feelings about it.
I care about Tremulous future so i noticing weird moments in 1.2 version. And not only me noticed that camera after death just making creazy shit (and camera not improving gameplay/game itself in our case).
I'm glad that you are trying to advertise 1.2 and invite people to play it more, so that they feel the game. But so far in the game have such weird glitches, most people will play as I - no more than an hour (although for different reasons than I did, but still). With such an attitude to the players not be surprised if next year everyone will forget about the 1.2 and go to other games. I do not want this to happen, but this 1.2 tremulous should focus on players and not on the preferences of a small group of people.

2Kiwi: You did not note this point, but many players noted. Thats why I talking about switch in menu or variable to turn this off. Im not talking about personal like/dislike of 1.2 (but Meisseli seems again began his song "to play in 1.2 longer and you put up with everything")

[Nux]

Nice try, Meiss. English is not my native language and I'm aware of my shortfalls. Perhaps it's my meaning your not understanding? So it would seem from what you've quoted. I've played the last 1.2 version and this is the one to which I refer. My feelings are unchanged regardless.

I care about the future of Tremulous and I notice worrisome aspects in this latest installment. I'm not the only one to have stated displeasure toward this crazy camera shit. It's but one unnecessary flaw in the '1.2' release.

I'm glad that you are trying to advertise 1.2 and invite people to play it more, so that they can experience the new version of the game. Sadly, so far I've seen so many appauling aspects that I have no trouble seeing why many would not play the version for more than an hour. If not for my personal complaints, then quite possibly for other changes that were made against community wishes. I would go so far as to say this could put an end to any hopes of a future revival of interest in tremulous. I do not want this to happen, but it will if devs continue to pander to a select few's wishes and not to the greater community.


My dear fellow Kiwi.

What I am in favor of is the capability to change the deathcam style via a setting IF YOU SO WISH. This was noted by others in this thread.

It would seem Meisseli's philosophy would be "Put up and shut up" when it comes to anything that could be improved upon.

Fix'd grammar, not meaning.

EDIT: As a personal addendum for Meisseli, don't think that I'm not aware of the effect you're talking about. I completely agree that people will be more inclined to play what they're used to rather than put the modicum of effort required into learning something new. I'm well aware. I could be guilty of that myself...to an extent.

What I want you to understand is that these changes you suggest we adjust to are unnecessary by all standards other than balance and change aspects we loved about the game. An example would be the marauder which has become some sort of more bouncy, less speedy electro-spammer when what it was was so much more fun when mastered. The basilisk has been dummed down too. I tried to love the new game but I just ended up missing the way those classes used to be.

And for what? Balance just doesn't matter if the game isn't fun. If you want balance take turns playing humans/aliens like we've always done. Hell, some of the best games I've had were where my team was at a huge disadvantage but won anyway.

So, I think I'm justified in thinking that players need more reason to switch over. If you're going to change things people loved, it's important to give them something in return. What I've tried just takes more than it gives.

[F50]

I've never noticed the death cam either, but seriously, why is this a problem? I don't know about you, but I play a game for gameplay. Even, or should I say especially, ASCII graphics can be fun. Furthermore, this thread is about unTrem. What is the gameplay reason to base a project on 1.1 rather than 1.2. Or what are the gameplay aspects of unTrem, and why will they be fun?

[Tremulant]

So, both thoroughly necro'd and derailed, my god we're efficient!

[CATAHA]

I've never noticed the death cam either, but seriously, why is this a problem? I don't know about you, but I play a game for gameplay.

Im playing games for gameplay too (even still playing ADOM if you talking about ASCII =] ), but i cant enjoy game with non-gameplay annoying moments i cant even disable. I very like bicycle trips, but enjoy thse trips with broken tires? No, thanx!
So many talks about Trem learning curve on forum here. But if there are disputed issues, it is unlikely that players will linger in the game long enough to understand all its depth and appeal. A rough example. If you tell a man: "Here's a bucket of shit, look inside, there you will find in the depths of something interesting." most people are unlikely to do this for a long time. Even if hypothetically in the bottom of the bucket is a diamond. =(

UPD: I know that my attempts to discuss the 1.2 might look ugly. And i know about my ugly broken english language. But i wish long live to Trem, so I would prefer to see in 1.2 fix current errors (grates glitch,skybox _down_ bug,'blowing' eggs when no enough space,'stuck' respawn not as a dretch when no enough space,etc), rather than the emergence of new glitches.

[Qrntz]

I've never noticed the death cam either, but seriously, why is this a problem? I don't know about you, but I play a game for gameplay.

If you tell a man: "Here's a bucket of shit, look inside, there you will find in the depths of something interesting." most people are unlikely to do this for a long time. Even if hypothetically in the bottom of the bucket is a diamond.

Leave aside the jokes, but this is an absolutely beneficent example, sir. I tip my hat to you.

[Asvarox]

Anybody who would play Tremulous for 30 minutes with sceptical attitude (or even probably without one) wouldn't run it again. Regardless the version. The fact that you played 1.1 for "YEASRS" makes it even worse, because you are used to it's gameplay, you have the reference point, while new player doesn't, it's all new for him.

I also can't really believe that something as trivial as death cam makes GPP unplayable for you. Hell I didn't even noticed any problems with it yet (even wanted to check it out just for you, but my drivers are broken and I'm too lazy to fix it).

There are quite a few people here like you, who used to have really bad opinion about Planned Dev Games and GPP. They decided to give it a try and surprisingly they liked it. As they said, the changes look weird in theory, when you read about them at forums, but in practice they do make sense when you get used. IIRC one of them is Whales, I guess Dracone also liked GPP as I see him in-game occasionally (not sure if he was bashing it before).

Anyway I suggest you to do the same. Play GPP instead of 1.1 for a week let yourself get used to the changes even if it means that you gonna suck at the beginning.

You have right to dislike 1.2 gameplay, but not after 30 minutes of playing it.

[CATAHA]

Same opinion as Meisseli, lol.
Two weeks ago I bring new player to trem. He played in 1.2 and noticed some things he dont like (death cam too). Its not a question of 'how much you playing'. Right now im waiting for 1.2 release and may be devs gonna change some things. Right now i dont see point broke my eyes on it.
Most peoples just dont see any point playing game with moments they dont like. And you cant force them play more. And once more - its not question of 1.2 gameplay or something, lol. I and many other peoples just dont like how 1.2 version look like. I played it and im not suck (i never count myself as pro, but in any case i still show good game).
PS Your opinion based on peoples who not rarely here. But community here not so huge, and it not growing up. Guess why? Seems not. =\
PPS And even some part of current community prefer 1.1 due to various reasons.

[Meisseli]

What I want you to understand is that these changes you suggest we adjust to are unnecessary by all standards other than balance and change aspects we loved about the game. An example would be the marauder which has become some sort of more bouncy, less speedy electro-spammer when what it was was so much more fun when mastered. The basilisk has been dummed down too. I tried to love the new game but I just ended up missing the way those classes used to be.

And for what? Balance just doesn't matter if the game isn't fun. If you want balance take turns playing humans/aliens like we've always done. Hell, some of the best games I've had were where my team was at a huge disadvantage but won anyway.

So, I think I'm justified in thinking that players need more reason to switch over. If you're going to change things people loved, it's important to give them something in return. What I've tried just takes more than it gives.

And what I want you to understand that it's not about balance. Let's try it again:

It's not about balancing or graphics. It's about those gameplay improvements that really make it a funner version. Lesser camping, working forward building, to be able to finish games pre-S3. Still got the nice fast gameplay too, and scrims are even more fun!

This is what I'm on about. GPP makes the gameplay a lot more fun than it was even though it might seem with all the nostalgia that 1.1 was a perfect game. In fact it was far from it. Your example of the marauder in the new version is hardly "less speedy" (unless you don't know how to strafejump) or "electro spammer" (you cannot kill any even mildly good human with only zap). Instead, the useless alternative firemode of 1.1 was made actually useful!

@CATAHA: No "trolling attempt". I know English is not your native language and was just trying to say you interpreted what I was saying wrong probably due to it.

Still my point stands. 30 minutes is not enough for you to get hang of driving a new car model even if you've driven one before. Play it - and then give feedback about what you like/don't like. Saying "I won't play it because it has changed" makes you just a moron that will be disregarded.

[CATAHA]

I changed 3 cars already and it takes not more than 10-15 min to be good with new. =D But now we've come to a consensus - i giving feedback about 1.2 trem. I dont like that stupid cam 'cauz its hurting my eyes (especially after full work day). =)

[Meisseli]

I changed 3 cars already and it takes not more than 10-15 min to be good with new. =D But now we've come to a consensus - i giving feedback about 1.2 trem. I dont like that stupid cam 'cauz its hurting my eyes (especially after full work day). =)

Bad analogues can stay bad analogues.

However the fact that your stats page doesn't have any marauder, dragoon or tyrant kills leads to believe you didn't even try them. You got two kills as a dretch and two as a basilisk, you think that was extensive testing to see what aliens are made of in the new version?

Humans? A whopping 13 kills! I'm sure the two turrets you built helped you understand the new building system that allows for awesome strategic forward building!

Truly, it seems the death cam is really the only thing you can even comment on. Begone.

[CATAHA]

My game style - evade, not rude 'meat rush' Usually i bleed, not 'kill till death'. But if you want - yea, i suck at 1.2 and i hopeless noob. But i cant become better due to game glithes hurting me. =[
We wil ltalk about all facts after 1.2 release, ok? Im a bit tired saying about possible 'bugs' and hear in response 'play more'. =\

PS You dont need 1.2 to build awesome forward bases, lol. Seriously. Even in 'worse 1.1' you can easily build outposts.

[Meisseli]

My game style - evade, not rude 'meat rush' Usually i bleed, not 'kill till death'. But if you want - yea, i suck at 1.2 and i hopeless noob. But i cant become better due to game glithes hurting me. =[
We wil ltalk about all facts after 1.2 release, ok? Im a bit tired saying about possible 'bugs' and hear in response 'play more'. =\

PS You dont need 1.2 to build awesome forward bases, lol. Seriously. Even in 'worse 1.1' you can easily build outposts.

I couldn't care less about you sucking or not but you shouting here so hard how 1.2 sucks without even playing a damn full game of it...

Nux, I think what you mean by the mara slowness is some very early Phase 1 or 2 version from ages ago. Correct me if I'm wrong. It has been fixed since long time. As I said, the first phases were utterly horrible. Play the most recent ones, they're very enjoyable.

[CATAHA]

Oh cmon. Dont you read my posts? Lolly. I just noticed some moments that suck. Im not saying 1.2 suck totally, it targeted on some players part and have own features. Im not gonna strongly decide suck it or not before release. All other opinions was with note 'me personally'. So better care about help to devs make 1.2 release faster released and more attractive game. =]

[Tremulant]

I couldn't care less about you sucking or not but you shouting here so hard how 1.2 sucks without even playing a damn full game of it...
Nux, I think what you mean by the mara slowness is some very early Phase 1 or 2 version from ages ago. Correct me if I'm wrong. It has been fixed since long time.

I'm fairly sure that's the case, and why did it get fixed, because people play-testing the thing asked the devs to look into the reasons for it feeling so slow, same reason the pulse rifle bullets are no longer the same diameter as luciballs. This kind of feedback isn't going to come up for other issues if people flatly refuse to play the bloody thing. What's wrong with you people, i thought development versions were trendy thesedays, or must they bear the label "beta" for that?

Oh cmon. Dont you read my posts?

At this stage i try not to, you rarely contribute anything remotely useful but have a compulsion to post regardless.

[CATAHA]

Ok, i will fall back to mapping section. Only hope 1.2 attract players. Long live trem!

[ghostshell]

The first and primary goal of the DretchStorm project right now is to make all the mods necessary to get tremulous working on xreal ... not in compat mode, but rather with all features turned on. This more or less means a whole new game, at least visually. So many assets must be re-made or changed: maps, all models, large majority of textures, sound?, effects, etc... After the first goal is complete (1 year, 10 years?) then we'll add our own game play changes.

Why 1.1? We believe that there wasnt much wrong with 1.1 from a game play standpoint. Even with so-called overpowered dretches, tyrants and goons and all- that's the Trem that hooked us. We will backport fixes from 1.2 but for the most part the game will be based on 1.1-ish. Also 1.2 is a moving target and our time is limited (we have jobs, wives, etc). When 1.2 becomes the official release then we'll backport more if needed.

Could you play DretchStorm with mainstream Tremulous servers? I hope so, but I can't say for sure right now (assume NO).

Some of the main changes planned (more or less)... in the future:
- Where mainstream Tremulous appeals to the majority hardware thanks to ioquake3, by moving to xreal we are targeting newish hardware (6200FX or better?) as the base.
- We intend to have a darker and violent take on the theme, an R-rating. We'll try to bring dismemberment thanks to new skeletal models. Many of us want ragdolls so I expect we'll add support for Bullet or ODE.
- Our take on aliens is more arachnid-based and we will build on that. Several levels of "growth" per class might be possible. Abnormal growth is not out of question. Physical attributes of known arachnids will be exaggerated and incorporated into our aliens.
- Built-in XP stats ... old-school DretchStorm server users enjoyed these for years, now they will be part of the game. Your profiles will be permanently stored in the official servers.
- Customization will be encouraged... we intend on adding new weapons and character models that will feed from a central repository. Some will need XP points to be used in game (think TF2). Artists will need to follow simple guidelines to get their stuff added.
- Official central repository for maps and stats.
- New buildables, weapons, situations.
- The hovel will return as burrow-type alien structure -kinda like a teleport- (in ours) the aliens are arachnids- why not?.
- NO MORE BOOSTER ... aliens will need to feed to replenish health. Alien "acids" and regurgitation will play an important part in alien defenses and attack.
- Grangers will not only build the base but also help fellow aliens-A medic of sort. "Larger Tyrants" -FLOBN- will help the infantry by spawning players during battle.
- Humans will gain a medic, an engineer, and a new girl soldier. (all meshes mostly done)
- Sorry, no flying aliens are planned ... but alien webs (+hook) are on the table.
- Jetpacks go in the way of jumppacks ... if jp stays, they will be fuel-limited and crippled significantly compared to 1.1 jp.
- Rocket and grenade arms will play important part in human weapons and defenses.
- Different weapons/gear will affect the mobility of humans-so you wont be able to run 30mph with a chaingun behind a dretch, for example.
- Human classes will be limited to their own class weapons ... soldier, medic, engineer, heavy/demo ... will have their own weapon class, but some will overlap.
- etc...

Those of you that know me and my mods (RAMPAGE and sort) know that I dont believe in character balance-it's an illusion (keep reading). For example, if you are unarmed in the jungle and a lion jumps you... where's the balance? now replace lion with tyrant. How about if i carry a rocket launcher and a lion jumps me... where's the balance then? both cases there is none. IMHO (character) balance is what causes deadlock/camping, i prefer a deterministic approach. ie., I can step on a scorpion and kill it, but if i'm laying down and dont see/hear the scorpion come, it can sting me on the jugular and kill me. let the situation dictate the result, not calculated events. we'll explore this type of approach in our game. We'll give both aliens and humans the best possible chances.

If you have ideas that you think we should explore, please join us in #dretchstorm on irc.freenode.net ... let's not hijack trem.net forums for this. We have no forums of our own yet but our website will be at http://dretchstorm.com

[Tremulant]

For example, if you are unarmed in the jungle and a lion jumps you... where's the balance? now replace lion with tyrant. How about if i carry a rocket launcher and a lion jumps me... where's the balance then?

Well yeah, you either fumble around with the rocket launcher for long enough that the lion's playing a tune on your windpipe, or you successfully fire the thing and either miss completely or blow yourself up along with the lion. But worry not, lions, as a rule, don't live in jungles, so you're safe for the most part, unless you happen to be a clumsy, rocket launcher carrying, half-wit.

So, how close are you to getting together the resources required to pull off your grand plans?

[Nux]

Nux, I think what you mean by the mara slowness is some very early Phase 1 or 2 version from ages ago. Correct me if I'm wrong. It has been fixed since long time. As I said, the first phases were utterly horrible. Play the most recent ones, they're very enjoyable.

You might be right there. It's true I haven't tried it recently, and I guess I was just disillusioned to the prospect of the devs making changes I agreed with / enjoyed after trying and failing to like their changes for as long as I did.

I'll give the new stuff try a ASAP.

In other news, it's good to see the thread has got back on track despite our best efforts!

[Cadynum]

The mara is faster than in 1.1 because they simply increased it's speed.
While you still gain speed from wall jumping it's not as important as in 1.1 since you're fast anyway.

I preferred the old mara as it was more challenging to be fast and you could do a lot more advanced jumps that required pretty good timing.
Now you basically hold space and forward and it does whatever you want automatically.

[KillerWhale]

Could a mod split this topic?
There's some good discussion going on here, but it's dreadfully off-topic.

Anyway, about the mara: After some adjusting, I like the new mara style more.
The walljump may not seem as interesting, but it is much more utilitarian and has its own uses.
The biggest improvement I see with the mara is that it has become the speed machine it was intended to be, not the (usually) easy target offered by the 1.1 mara.

Still, if you really like the old walljump style, there are ways to make the new one behave just like the old one.

[Nux]

ghostshell, that list looks pretty ambitious. Moreso, it strikes me that what you actually want to do is make an entirely new game.

No offense, but what strikes me the most is a lot of talk and nothing to show for it. It just gives me the impression you don't understand how hard it is to do these things.

My advice is to get to work now because you'll be hitting obstacles from the get go. As soon as you hit the first obstacle, explain it here and then maybe we can make some progress.

[your face]

Could a mod split this topic?

If the OP wants.

[swamp-cecil]

How about the a camera simply looks down on the players corpse from 10 meters of the ground? Something like at 0:43 in this movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJM0neZ4-bs&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_828236
except no looking up at the end

[David]

Most places that would have the roof in the way.

IMO it should just be a toggle.  Or maybe have a setting for the max speed that the camera can rotate.

[jm82792]

Ghostshell it would be great to get trem to xreal with current assets then we could at least have a better looking current trem, well when it's ported and people add new shaders.

[ghostshell]

Ghostshell it would be great to get trem to xreal with current assets then we could at least have a better looking current trem, well when it's ported and people add new shaders.

xreal uses doom3-ish material files, so all trem's shaders must be redone. for maps we are using different tools (like q3tod3) to help w this. for better performance we also need to redo all trem's particle effects-with a mix of lua scripts.

we are still getting all issues together and there's plenty that is only written down on paper (the stuff from trees). but here's a short update:

- currently trem 1.1 is "working" as standalone on linux. most ui isnt working yet.
- i'm merging with ET-Xreal and their renderer supports FBO md3 models so we could use the stock models-but we intend to move to md5 models progressively.
- we already have some "new" character meshes done but they arent rigged/animated yet.
- a team member is helping the 1.2 crew with sounds-while doing our new sounds too. his rendition of the trem title theme which he made for dretchstorm (i think) will be used in 1.2: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8823488/heartbeat1.mp3 (no more excuses for 1.2 )
- we only have the .map of tremor and arachnid2 so we are working on those maps. if anyone knows about other map sources (for trem's standard maps) please post them so we can add them to our queue.
- now we are aiming for "NC-17" rating for violence and language. this is not your mom's trem

if you want to be part of the team or just pitch your ideas, drop by #gameboom on irc.freenode.net