Author Topic: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD  (Read 160115 times)

danmal

  • Posts: 244
  • Turrets: +21/-6
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #210 on: March 19, 2012, 03:00:35 pm »
Not sure if serious but I'll bite. Fractional Reserve Banking is nothing like what you described. People deposit lots of money into banks which then sits there doing nothing. To make some money banks then take a fraction of that deposit and invest it somewhere. They might invest it in stocks, bonds, lend it out in the form of home loans, etc, etc. What they're not doing is making money out of nothing.

I get the last word now :D

Garion

  • Posts: 218
  • Turrets: +8/-44
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #211 on: March 23, 2012, 01:04:47 pm »
Of course they do, not only do they steal money in ever way possible and imaginable, but when you ask for a loan, they will simply write the amount leaned and that'll be it. And if they are the types of banks who don't have the power to create money out of thin air, then they will burrow the money to a bank which can (and the said bank will then just write down the amount, they won't create it or acquire it legitimately (meaning that it won't be true wealth)), so that's even more usury due to interests.

Nux

  • Posts: 1778
  • Turrets: +258/-69
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #212 on: March 23, 2012, 02:35:09 pm »
I'm not sure what you see money as, but it sounds like you think it's something more than an alternative to direct repayment (i.e. You give a person corn muffins and they repay you by painting your chicken coop). It's true that the system has become much more complicated, but money is still what it was: a record of society's debt to you. It's just that when civilisation get's to the point it's at now, you need governance to decide how people deal with each other and what debt is fair, or else there couldn't be such a large society. We get it 'wrong' and corruption still exists (to whatever extent you believe) and that should be (and is) tackled when it comes to light, but that doesn't mean the monetary system isn't working well at keeping a community of millions of people together, busy and happy.

Or do you think the word 'economics' means 'making money'? If so you should look at what good 'making money' does when hyperinflation hits.

JOURNEYMAN

  • Posts: 51
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #213 on: March 23, 2012, 05:23:58 pm »
Grab reality by the balls and squeeeeze!


Nux

  • Posts: 1778
  • Turrets: +258/-69
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #214 on: March 23, 2012, 06:42:21 pm »
Watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0pQNkX8jLM

Yet again, more surprise at how money has to be created when there is a need for it. I'm not sure what they think real money is if they see this as fraudulent. Tell me this: If you ran a country, how would you maintain a system where everyone can keep track of who is in indebtted to who? [No, not money debt. Debt of services or goods.] Perhaps in your country, you give everyone their fair share of money to begin with and then do nothing after that. What happens then when one guy does everyone's chores for a month , accumulates all that money for himself and decides to hold onto it? Nobody can do business with anyone anymore so I guess your country will just have to come to a standstill until he decides to spend some.

Also this video takes great pains to be entertaining, but makes no effort to give a level-headed account of things. Apparently the world is worse than it's ever been because people still die and some people are super-rich and also a lot of people are still poor. Also, it turns out that anything complex or hard to grasp is actually nonsense so you don't have to try to learn anything about it.

Garion

  • Posts: 218
  • Turrets: +8/-44
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #215 on: March 25, 2012, 12:42:46 am »
What you are saying Nux is all assuring, but I don't think it's true. I will answer one of your question : if I wanted a money that actually worked, I would have a gold standard, not a money that gets printed by the most fraudulent men this world has ever seen.

danmal

  • Posts: 244
  • Turrets: +21/-6
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #216 on: March 25, 2012, 03:45:19 am »
Of course they do, not only do they steal money in ever way possible and imaginable, but when you ask for a loan, they will simply write the amount leaned and that'll be it. And if they are the types of banks who don't have the power to create money out of thin air, then they will burrow the money to a bank which can (and the said bank will then just write down the amount, they won't create it or acquire it legitimately (meaning that it won't be true wealth)), so that's even more usury due to interests.

That's not true. What a bank will do is take everyone's deposits/investments and then lend them out to other people who need that money (eg for a home loan). Banks effectively act as a middle man that hooks people up who need cash with people who have surplus cash. Sure they make some money out of this but lending money is an inherently risky business. Not only do you need to make enough money to cover your expenses but you also need to make enough money to cover the loans that default. Banks effectively remove risk in investing while also allowing average people access to loans. What exactly is wrong with this?

JOURNEYMAN

  • Posts: 51
  • Turrets: +0/-0
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #217 on: March 25, 2012, 03:49:43 am »
What you are saying Nux is all assuring, but I don't think it's true. I will answer one of your question : if I wanted a money that actually worked, I would have a gold standard, not a money that gets printed by the most fraudulent men this world has ever seen.

Very good explanations at the following link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_dollar
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080701142241AAIydIG

Grab reality by the balls and squeeeeze!


Garion

  • Posts: 218
  • Turrets: +8/-44
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #218 on: March 25, 2012, 03:56:35 am »
What you are saying Nux is all assuring, but I don't think it's true. I will answer one of your question : if I wanted a money that actually worked, I would have a gold standard, not a money that gets printed by the most fraudulent men this world has ever seen.

Very good explanations at the following link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_dollar
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080701142241AAIydIG



Professor Antal Fekete explains the question even better. I suggest most of you who truly care about the subject read his stuff. I am personally reading a book called The return to the gold standard (the translation is from french, which is "Le retour au standard or", I'm not sure if an english version of the book exists.

Garion

  • Posts: 218
  • Turrets: +8/-44
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #219 on: March 25, 2012, 03:58:51 am »
Of course they do, not only do they steal money in ever way possible and imaginable, but when you ask for a loan, they will simply write the amount leaned and that'll be it. And if they are the types of banks who don't have the power to create money out of thin air, then they will burrow the money to a bank which can (and the said bank will then just write down the amount, they won't create it or acquire it legitimately (meaning that it won't be true wealth)), so that's even more usury due to interests.

That's not true. What a bank will do is take everyone's deposits/investments and then lend them out to other people who need that money (eg for a home loan). Banks effectively act as a middle man that hooks people up who need cash with people who have surplus cash. Sure they make some money out of this but lending money is an inherently risky business. Not only do you need to make enough money to cover your expenses but you also need to make enough money to cover the loans that default. Banks effectively remove risk in investing while also allowing average people access to loans. What exactly is wrong with this?

That's in Alice in wonderland. Nowadays there are these things called CDS and fractionnal reserve.

danmal

  • Posts: 244
  • Turrets: +21/-6
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #220 on: March 25, 2012, 07:08:28 am »
Fractional reserve = Legislation that prevents a bank from loaning out all their money. Banks have to keep a certain percentage of peoples deposits/investments in cash. This helps to prevent people from being unable to withdraw their deposits due to a run on the banks.

My understanding of CDS indicates that banks don't really have anything to do with them other then as part of risk management/investment.

Garion

  • Posts: 218
  • Turrets: +8/-44
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #221 on: March 25, 2012, 02:02:31 pm »
Fractional reserve is one of the reasons why the banks aren't lending out the money of others, as you say. CDS is another way to avoid fractional reserve, thus they can give even more of the money that they don't have to others, without risking anything and winning on all sides (they win on interest gain, no risk, and they even bet on the failure of their clients).

Nux

  • Posts: 1778
  • Turrets: +258/-69
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #222 on: March 25, 2012, 05:07:53 pm »
if I wanted a money that actually worked, I would have a gold standard

Which is exactly what I thought you'd do and I've already given reasons why that fails:

Perhaps in your country, you give everyone their fair share of money to begin with and then do nothing after that. What happens then when one guy does everyone's chores for a month , accumulates all that money for himself and decides to hold onto it? Nobody can do business with anyone anymore so I guess your country will just have to come to a standstill until he decides to spend some.

And one more time to make sure you read it:

What happens ... when one guy ... accumulates all that money ... ? Nobody can do business ...

As is said in JOURNEYMAN's links, this is what happened (when the US was indebted to other countries during wartime and when there was a run on the dollar during depression) and this is why the US was forced to 'create money' that they didn't have in gold.

The system isn't the issue here. Not on paper at least. The problem occurs when a society of people don't get what they paid for in taxes, but forgets about it/doesn't understand it. The problem occurs when bankers are in a no-lose situation, because their loss is everyone's loss. The problem occurs when people take advantage of other people.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 05:10:03 pm by Nux »

Garion

  • Posts: 218
  • Turrets: +8/-44
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #223 on: March 25, 2012, 06:17:41 pm »
First of all, there is no such thing as people accumulating all the gold legitimately. For instance, monopolization in such a system doesn't work, the fact that there are monopoly in today's world, is generally because of the flaws of our current system (edit : I'll precise that I am not talking about government taking a sector of economy, and that if I am talking about monopoly it's because IF a person had to gather all the riches, it's because he'd need a strong economical weapon, like the monopoly of an important sector). Secondly, gold standard (which generally include silver too) can come up with different currencies, which are food that last long (dates, rice...). Thirdly, the money HAS to circulate, because a system based on gold standard is supposed to be well done enough so there isn't this thing called usury, thus there is no exchange that benefits only one side, another reason is that there isn't 1 piece of gold that is promised to 20 persons, unlike 1 bill of your fiat currency. For these reasons and more, even the lack of gold isn't problematic, and if the gold owners want to buy something, then they will have to make a fair exchange and give some of their gold. Other then that, the well informed people know that at some times the gold is to conserve, because the true capital lies into it. So I'm not saying you won't get fooled, I'm just saying that it probably won't happen to everyone, and that even if it happened there are, as I said, different means of trade, that still have an intrinsic value. Basically, see it this way, a good system with a gold standard won't put barriers to the economy because the gold is lacking.

You probably will find it hard to believe in the gold standard, especially in a system that makes it valuable, because the work of economist of these last 100 years was mostly to destroy all credibility the gold standard had.

I also suggest that you go out and understand about the fraudulent, intrinsically destroyer of riches, fiat money and it's corrupted system that destroys the real sense of the economic system, it would be much easier to see why the gold standard actually works.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 06:24:21 pm by Garion »

RAKninja-Decepticon

  • Posts: 843
  • Turrets: +14/-679
    • Stupid Videos
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #224 on: March 25, 2012, 09:45:45 pm »
to put what garrion has said into perspective, look into the past of america.  from our founding to about 1970 or so, gold was $35 an ounce.  yes, that is right, thirty-five dollars an pounce.  watch some three stooges some time, you'll see how much value the american dollar has lost.  for example, back in the 30's, a week at a hotel was one dollar.

compare to now, where gold is ~$1500 an ounce.  a DAY at a bad hotel runs roughly $35.

this stuff isnt restricted to century scale changes.  for example, the year i was born, 1981, a loaf of bread was ~ 10 cents.  nowadays, 30 years later, you will be lucky to find bread at $1.50 a loaf.

i am of the opinion that bread is a good benchmark of the value of a currency, considering bread has been the basic building block of western civilization for a good thousand years or more.

in the simplest terms:  a fractional reserve system does not work.  it does not work for the same reason leninist communism does not work.  human nature.  humans tend toward greed, and their political/economic systems are plagued by corruption.  it has been this way throughout all ~6000 years of recorded history, worldwide.

a central bank also does not work because of the same principals.  if an entity has the sole power to coin money, that entity is going to be the target of corruption, as american history has shown over the past hundred years.  the federal reserve system was founded by men who saw it as the best way to consolidate their own power and wealth.  it was not founded with the best interest of the american people at heart.  unlike our government, made for the people, by the people - the federal reserve system of fractional reserve + central bank was made for the bankers, by the bankers.

we desperately need a system, like the gold standard, where the value of a currency is backed by a desirable commodity, like gold, rather than a system where the value of a currency is determined by the amount of that currency in circulation.  especially when the entity that decides how much currency is in circulation has the sole authority on deciding how much currency is in circulation.


nux:  wartime debt.  you must remember how things were done back back then.  back then, the debt incurred during war was customarily dropped onto the loser of the war (this is what set germany up for the rise of hitler and WW2).  back in those days, nations managed to get monopolies on industry.  for example, in WW1, germany had a total monopoly on the production of light bulbs.no one else in the world manufactured light bulbs.  because this was allowed, when trade ended with germany, we americans had to start a lightbulb industry, then expand it enough to support wartime production.  in the space of a few months.  to support this, the government offered massive subsidies.  the government then had to take loans to back these, as it could not afford to pay them (it pushed war bonds pretty heavy back then...  i wonder what pushed us to stop relying on our citizenry with bonds, and start taking loans from foreign governments)

had the government not been already corrupted by big business and big banking, we more than likely would not been in such big debt.  a truly free market has historically been shown to regulate itself, it is when people start meddling....  making the market progressively less and less free...  that "capitalism" starts to fail.

we humans have a habit of viewing the past as if they had the perspective on the world that we have today.  think of the renaissance painting of biblical scenes as if they were in medieval europe.  people even 100 years ago had different values and ethics than we do now.  nowadays, invading a country without helping to rebuild it after the war is almost unthinkably barbaric.  heaping war debt onto the loser of a war is also unthinkable.  total war is a barbaric concept also, not having existed for westerners since hiroshima and nagasaki.  unrestricted travel over most of the world is equally unthinkable these days.  can you imagine crossing the boarders of many countries without so much as a passport check?

TL;DR:  fractional reserve, central bank, "hybrid capitalism" = bad.  gold standard, sound currency, true capitalism = good.  also: ethics change a lot in 100 years.
Note 4: The best, although not always easiest, way to deal with trolls is thus: do not respond at ALL in the thread.
Main Rules
4.) No spamming or advertising (includes useless multi-posts and bumps.)
6b.) Do NOT harass other members.
  6c.) Do NOT troll!

Nux

  • Posts: 1778
  • Turrets: +258/-69
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #225 on: March 25, 2012, 11:44:41 pm »
First of all, there is no such thing as people accumulating all the gold legitimately.

It was a scenario designed to illustrate what fails in a monetary system with zero change in money supply. It wasn't about gold specifically. It wasn't a description of an existing system. It was your simplistic system taken to an extreme to test it. I shouldn't have to spell out what that says about similar systems in similar situations.

The reason the measures we have today exist is because we (historically) saw how the system struggled/failed when we hit a bump in the road (e.g. war, disaster, panic) and people said "never again!". Now you're looking back on a history of changes to the economy and saying "WTF! why is this so complex? We should scrap all this and put things back to how it started!!", ready for the next bump to come along so we can watch the system fall apart again.

I'm entirely in favour of looking for improvements to a system which still, and always will have, ethical grey areas and abuses. But unless you are willing to look at what actually works about the current system we have, you will never improve anything. The benefits we all enjoy (such as chatting to eachother about all this in all this free time we have) are testament to the fact that things a going pretty good under the system we currently have.

And since I apparently have to, I'll repeat: I'm entirely in favour of looking for improvements but a return to the gold standard is just asking for history to repeat itself.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to note that I'm no expert on economics and I enjoy reading up about anything I haven't heard of or understand. That isn't to say I don't know something about economics, just that there will be things I didn't know existed in your (United States) monetary system and I'd be glad to hear about anything I might be missing.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 05:04:32 am by Nux »

Garion

  • Posts: 218
  • Turrets: +8/-44
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #226 on: March 26, 2012, 01:21:50 am »
I...I'm speechless.

danmal

  • Posts: 244
  • Turrets: +21/-6
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #227 on: March 26, 2012, 01:58:29 am »
Fractional reserve is one of the reasons why the banks aren't lending out the money of others, as you say. CDS is another way to avoid fractional reserve, thus they can give even more of the money that they don't have to others, without risking anything and winning on all sides (they win on interest gain, no risk, and they even bet on the failure of their clients).

Fractional reserve IS the reason why banks are lending out money of others. It's also the reason why they don't lend out all their money. CDS as fair as I understand it can be used as part of a risk management system. What exactly is wrong with CDS or fractional reserve banking?

I'm not an American (our system works slightly differently) but I think people might be confusing fractional reserve banking with the central bank. You can have a system very very similar to fractional reserve banking that doesn't rely on a central bank.

I'm also kind of curious as to
1. Why is inflation such a terrible thing?
2. Why are you be advocating for less regulations rather then more especially if corruption/unethical behaviour is an issue?

Garion

  • Posts: 218
  • Turrets: +8/-44
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #228 on: March 26, 2012, 02:11:52 am »
Fractional reserve is the reason why the banks don't keep the money of the people who deposit it, but instead make placement with it to earn more money (usually by stealing riches or destroying them, so basically it's usury). I am not advocating for less regulations in general, I am pointing out that the deregulation of these last years and mostly how the changes of the monetary system and of the roles of the bank are crucial to the troubles we've had in 2008, and to the troubles that will happen again soon enough.

Inflation in a system with a gold standard isn't a problem, it's always low. The problem now is that the government wants it to be as low as possible, even when the conditions make it bad for the economy. A fall of the inflation is another problem, more subtle tho, because it makes the market go away, since it can create a fall of the enterprise, or the incapacity of fixing the prices of the market. It's a domino effect.

You people should get away of Milton and Keynes, take a couple of good breathe, and come back (edit : to seriousness).

danmal

  • Posts: 244
  • Turrets: +21/-6
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #229 on: March 26, 2012, 03:16:53 am »
Fractional reserve is the reason why the banks don't keep the money of the people who deposit it, but instead make placement with it to earn more money (usually by stealing riches or destroying them, so basically it's usury).

Banks increase liquidity by doing this. If they didn't then it would be much harder/expensive for people to get home loans, business loans, etc, etc. How are banks stealing riches/destroying them? What they are doing is no different then any other investor (they of course have a lot more money and have to be a lot more careful).

I am not advocating for less regulations in general, I am pointing out that the deregulation of these last years and mostly how the changes of the monetary system and of the roles of the bank are crucial to the troubles we've had in 2008, and to the troubles that will happen again soon enough.

Someone else was. I agree that strong regulations are important in the finance/banking industry.

Inflation in a system with a gold standard isn't a problem, it's always low. The problem now is that the government wants it to be as low as possible, even when the conditions make it bad for the economy. A fall of the inflation is another problem, more subtle tho, because it makes the market go away, since it can create a fall of the enterprise, or the incapacity of fixing the prices of the market. It's a domino effect.

Surely this could be fixed with better policy and doesn't require a departure from our current system?

janev

  • Spam Killer
  • *
  • Posts: 534
  • Turrets: +130/-26
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #230 on: March 26, 2012, 03:50:48 am »
Some folks here seem to be getting their basic concepts mixed up. Here is some stuff to help you.

Fractional Reserve Banking

Money Creation

Gold Standard

Reserves

Money

Credit Default Swap

Capital requirements

Credit default swaps are not related to the money supply. They are derivatives used to insure loans and speculate (depending on which side of the transaction you are on). If you want to learn more about derivatives and such John Hull wrote the book. Derivatives are off balance sheet items and do not count towards reserve ratios. The bank of international settlements gives guidelines on those that most places follow. They fall under the BASEL accords. Basel iii

Having a fixed currency is no magic bullet that'll fix all your problems, quite the opposite, there is a reason no country uses it. Now you can't really argue the fine points of how to organize an economy with any authority unless you get down to the nitty gritty details. There is a place for that sort of thing and I do not think the tremulous forums is it. Perhaps if you are so keen on economics issues you should pursue academic research into the field of economics or finance.

A funny note on Gold. Did you know that gold these days is also traded using a reserve system. There is not enough of the yellow stuff to satisfy demand by a long shot and clearing physical gold is inefficient to the point of limiting trade.
Author of "The quick beginner's guide to playing tremulous"
Founding member of the "undefeated in clanwars since 2006" club and narcissist extraordinaire.


"Your quote-tower trolling reminds me of two dogs fighting over a piece of poo." [c] Ingar

danmal

  • Posts: 244
  • Turrets: +21/-6
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #231 on: March 26, 2012, 02:46:47 pm »
Some folks here seem to be getting their basic concepts mixed up. Here is some stuff to help you.

It's been a while since I've done any finance. Hopefully I didn't screw too much up.

There is a place for that sort of thing and I do not think the tremulous forums is it. Perhaps if you are so keen on economics issues you should pursue academic research into the field of economics or finance.

The Tremulous forums probably isn't the right place for most stuff in off-topic either.

Garion

  • Posts: 218
  • Turrets: +8/-44
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #232 on: March 26, 2012, 04:41:31 pm »
Fractional reserve is the reason why the banks don't keep the money of the people who deposit it, but instead make placement with it to earn more money (usually by stealing riches or destroying them, so basically it's usury).

Banks increase liquidity by doing this. If they didn't then it would be much harder/expensive for people to get home loans, business loans, etc, etc. How are banks stealing riches/destroying them? What they are doing is no different then any other investor (they of course have a lot more money and have to be a lot more careful).

I am not advocating for less regulations in general, I am pointing out that the deregulation of these last years and mostly how the changes of the monetary system and of the roles of the bank are crucial to the troubles we've had in 2008, and to the troubles that will happen again soon enough.

Someone else was. I agree that strong regulations are important in the finance/banking industry.

Inflation in a system with a gold standard isn't a problem, it's always low. The problem now is that the government wants it to be as low as possible, even when the conditions make it bad for the economy. A fall of the inflation is another problem, more subtle tho, because it makes the market go away, since it can create a fall of the enterprise, or the incapacity of fixing the prices of the market. It's a domino effect.

Surely this could be fixed with better policy and doesn't require a departure from our current system?

I will not repeat myself indefinitely, fractional reserve means the bank only needs a fraction of the money they can loan you. It's like if I had 10 dollars and I could give you a loan of 100$, it doesn't increase the liquidation, it simply increases the amount of money they can play with, and it releases them from the obligations of having the capitals to back it up. Just like when you put 100$ in the bank, it's as if you gave them the possibility to make 1000$ loan. Talking about liquidity, try and go get the 100$ you gave them, you probably won't have it, especially if others go for it.

I will also point out that the fact that the banks can give loan to a lot of people, even the poor, is also due to CDS (which means they have almost no risk of losing the money, since someone else takes the risk for them), and that this was a major element of the crash of 2008.

If my dear friend Jane seriously thinks the gold is lacking, he should be aware that the gold is currently departing, and guess who is buying it if it's not the banks that ruined the economy? Case in the point, there is no more contango.

CDS ARE related to money supply, as CDS allows bank to avoid the law of insurance, so they need a much lower money reserve to back up these said transactions while still making money out of it, and the fact that CDS are derivatives mean that in the crash of 2008, the change of the interest rates on CDS and on the goods bought with the money of it AND the delocalization created the domino effect as we've seen it. But all these elements wouldn't have been possible if it wasn't for the de-responsibilization and the de-regulation changes that were made, thus made the bank almost free of constraint, and because the USA abandoned the gold standard (which was in contradiction to the constitution).

If you believe that the amount of gold offered on the market are too low, you are right, but the reason why the gold stocks are low now is because the fraudulent economist, and the clear-headed people are actually conserving their gold instead of selling it, as they know where the true capital lies (that, and in primary matters or lands). And within these last 60 years, the amount of gold dug was greater than what the world has seen. Also, the amount of gold needed in circulation for an economy based on gold standard is the LOWEST based on percentage, so don't fool yourself, gold truly HAS an intrinsic value, let's just talk about it's physical property.

RAKninja-Decepticon

  • Posts: 843
  • Turrets: +14/-679
    • Stupid Videos
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #233 on: March 26, 2012, 06:01:45 pm »
there is a reason no country uses it.

because the biggest banks here in america, are also some of the biggest banks worldwide?  and the fact that we mandated such a thing for most of the world at the conclusion of world war 2?

there is also a reason marijuana is illegal through most of the world.  the US will not give you money unless you cave to its demands.  we'll go to war with you if you dont (see the mideast, where much speculation is that we started the iraq war because sadam was threatening to price oil in euros rather than dollars....  much like iran is currently doing.

aside from garrion, did many of you know that?  that we mandated at the end of ww2 that all oil from the mid-east is to be priced in dollars?

i advdocate less regulation on markets, not banks.  banks need regulation to prevent corruption, unlike nearly any free market.

also, why do banks deal in other things for their fractional reserve, rather than exclusively commodities?  trading in commodities is pretty much guaranteed profit.  the trick is dealing with a large enough variety that you can not buy something when it is priced to sell.

janev, speculation is part of the biggest problem in western economics.  speculation is what allowed for the first great depression....  and our recent "great recession" (acknowledging that it was even a depression, let alone a depression worse than the "great" one is very hard for the popular media)
Note 4: The best, although not always easiest, way to deal with trolls is thus: do not respond at ALL in the thread.
Main Rules
4.) No spamming or advertising (includes useless multi-posts and bumps.)
6b.) Do NOT harass other members.
  6c.) Do NOT troll!

Garion

  • Posts: 218
  • Turrets: +8/-44
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #234 on: March 26, 2012, 06:15:50 pm »
there is a reason no country uses it.

because the biggest banks here in america, are also some of the biggest banks worldwide?  and the fact that we mandated such a thing for most of the world at the conclusion of world war 2?

there is also a reason marijuana is illegal through most of the world.  the US will not give you money unless you cave to its demands.  we'll go to war with you if you dont (see the mideast, where much speculation is that we started the iraq war because sadam was threatening to price oil in euros rather than dollars....  much like iran is currently doing.

aside from garrion, did many of you know that?  that we mandated at the end of ww2 that all oil from the mid-east is to be priced in dollars?

i advdocate less regulation on markets, not banks.  banks need regulation to prevent corruption, unlike nearly any free market.

also, why do banks deal in other things for their fractional reserve, rather than exclusively commodities?  trading in commodities is pretty much guaranteed profit.  the trick is dealing with a large enough variety that you can not buy something when it is priced to sell.

janev, speculation is part of the biggest problem in western economics.  speculation is what allowed for the first great depression....  and our recent "great recession" (acknowledging that it was even a depression, let alone a depression worse than the "great" one is very hard for the popular media)

Rak, there are countries which uses the gold standard, and these countries are exactly being diabolized by the western mass medias, and are the prey of the future attacks the NATO's forces will deliver. These countries are also the only countries which aren't in debt, so the west has all the reasons to submit them to their corrupted and intrinsically fraudulent paper money economical system.

RAKninja-Decepticon

  • Posts: 843
  • Turrets: +14/-679
    • Stupid Videos
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #235 on: March 26, 2012, 06:34:12 pm »
which are they garrion?  i as actually unaware anyone was still on the gold standard.
Note 4: The best, although not always easiest, way to deal with trolls is thus: do not respond at ALL in the thread.
Main Rules
4.) No spamming or advertising (includes useless multi-posts and bumps.)
6b.) Do NOT harass other members.
  6c.) Do NOT troll!

Nux

  • Posts: 1778
  • Turrets: +258/-69
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #236 on: March 26, 2012, 08:02:19 pm »
Wikipedia says no country uses the Gold Standard so I'm inclined to believe it.

Also it looks like there's some confusion over different notions of 'money' being used here. Here's my attempt at explaining it and feel free to call me out on my errors: 'Money' as your average person knows it (i.e. notes and coins) is the monetary base (M0). There are also broader measures of 'Money' which not only include the monetary base, but also the 'promises to pay money' as extra money itself (M1, M2, etc). In fractional reserve banking, no money in the monetary base is created, but since 'promises' can be exchanged just like standard money can it is considered money too and in this sense money is created. This isn't the same thing as making money from nothing, since the creation of this 'money' can only occur when promises are made to repay a concrete amount of M0 money. Whether the system is good at stimulating prosperity and avoiding crises is a matter of opinion, requiring greater scrutiny and separate from any intrinsic problems/evils you assert it has.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 08:04:46 pm by Nux »

janev

  • Spam Killer
  • *
  • Posts: 534
  • Turrets: +130/-26
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #237 on: March 26, 2012, 10:11:44 pm »
Danmal your stuff seemed mostly in order and by not being the right place I mean you won't get top notch content. It's mostly just wild eyed conspiracy theory and arguments pushing various political agendas. All very confusing for the layman who can't separate the politics from the economics. ;D

Monetary Economics is the branch of economics that studies these things for whoever it might concern

Credit default swaps have very little effect on the money supply. They are risk management and speculation tools used by banks and other financial market participants. These kinds of derivatives allow markets to transfer risks efficiently to those most able to bare them. As such they are tools and of course tools can be abused. The way they effect money supply is through the risk management department of banks. Banks with efficient/involved risk management systems are awarded slightly lower reserve requirements, which of course makes sense, if you have less risk on your balance sheet you do not need as large a buffer. It is not some ultimate money generating machine. Again Basel iii has the details for banks.
Author of "The quick beginner's guide to playing tremulous"
Founding member of the "undefeated in clanwars since 2006" club and narcissist extraordinaire.


"Your quote-tower trolling reminds me of two dogs fighting over a piece of poo." [c] Ingar

Garion

  • Posts: 218
  • Turrets: +8/-44
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #238 on: March 27, 2012, 02:47:32 am »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_gold_dinar

I'm not quite sure if these countries (indonesia, malaysia and libya) are into what we could call a totally converted system to the gold standard, but they used gold as a valid payment for some merchandise and some of them were definitely going for a return to the gold standard, which also explain why they made it a valid currency. A lot of countries are now also aiming at going back to the gold standard (Iran for example might go this road). It's important to understand that a full leap to the gold standard isn't really possible due to the geo-political situation (with the NATO forces being bullies), but take for example that Libya had a gold-for-oil plan (not only euro-for-oil), I am sure you are well aware of the importance of the dollar-for-oil, for the US dollar to be the prime currency of the world (coupled with the military punition they will inflict if it isn't taken). So call it a full gold standard or not (edit : or a partial gold standard, or even a plan to get back to it within some time), but the use of it was definitely growing and it was obviously moving toward this goal.

Edit: I'm sorry if I went to quickly to verify if the gold standard was fully implanted, the acceptance of gold for various ressources mislead me into saying they were in a fully gold standard system, but they are definitely going there and making it step by step (especially due to the menaces of the NATO forces, they cannot just jump into it), by aiming at the key elements (gold-for-oil instead of dollar-for-oil, for the Libyan case) to release themselves from the fraudulent paper money.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 02:52:11 am by Garion »

Garion

  • Posts: 218
  • Turrets: +8/-44
Re: OSAMA BIN LADEN DEAD
« Reply #239 on: March 27, 2012, 02:57:25 am »
Wikipedia says no country uses the Gold Standard so I'm inclined to believe it.

Also it looks like there's some confusion over different notions of 'money' being used here. Here's my attempt at explaining it and feel free to call me out on my errors: 'Money' as your average person knows it (i.e. notes and coins) is the monetary base (M0). There are also broader measures of 'Money' which not only include the monetary base, but also the 'promises to pay money' as extra money itself (M1, M2, etc). In fractional reserve banking, no money in the monetary base is created, but since 'promises' can be exchanged just like standard money can it is considered money too and in this sense money is created. This isn't the same thing as making money from nothing, since the creation of this 'money' can only occur when promises are made to repay a concrete amount of M0 money. Whether the system is good at stimulating prosperity and avoiding crises is a matter of opinion, requiring greater scrutiny and separate from any intrinsic problems/evils you assert it has.

I am not saying they are creating money out of nothing because of fractional reserve, but I am saying that due to fractional reserve, they can simply make loan without having the capitals to back it up, which means they can gain a lot of money, with very little money, and it also creates usury because of the interest rates, and all the other toxic effects. As for the money creation, the bankers (of the central bank) can create the money, as they have this right and not the governments (this is the case for most countries having a central bank, that is connected in some way to the central bank of the US, or should I say to the banks of wall street, like JP morgan, goldman sachs, etc.). So basically, how they create money is they either print it, or they just write it in their data, when they lack of it (so they avoid obligations) or when they must make a loan. My point on the creation of money and on the fractional reserve are quite different, and I hope I have nuanced well enough for you to understand.