Tremulous 2?

[Nightmare106]

What is this I've been hearing about on MoDDB's page??? A new game called Tremulous 2 is coming out? Apparently, according to in-game screenshots, the game is going to be cell-shaded like Borderlands and it's also based on Unreal Engine 3, the team behind development is AAA Games and not Dark Legion Development. Do they have permission to do this or the devs allowing them to do this, as far as I know the game is copyrighted. :S Anyone else have a clue about this? The game's release is due by 2014.

[/dev/humancontroller]

What is this I've been hearing about on MoDDB's page??? A new game called Tremulous 2 is coming out? Apparently, according to in-game screenshots, the game is going to be cell-shaded like Borderlands and it's also based on Unreal Engine 3, the team behind development is AAA Games and not Dark Legion Development. Do they have permission to do this or the devs allowing them to do this

nothing, in general, prohibits the development of a new game. if the new game is based on Tremulous' source code (released under the GPLv2+ license), then the new game's source code must be published along with the game. if the new game uses assets from Tremulous (released under the CC-BY-SA 2.5 license), then the new game must give credit to the authors of the assets. basically.

as far as I know the game is copyrighted. :S Anyone else have a clue about this? The game's release is due by 2014.

a non-existent thing cannot be copyrighted.

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

As  far as we've been given, all assets has been re-made [there's a video for proof for making mara] so we can't go againts this.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

i dont believe no one checked this section of the website:



it seems they are doing little to no engine work, they are all artists.

furthermore, check the forums.

http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=16949.0

also:

As  far as we've been given, all assets has been re-made [there's a video for proof for making mara] so we can't go againts this.

regardless, it is a derived work, and in violation of the CC license if this game is "commercial".

[/dev/humancontroller]

As  far as we've been given, all assets has been re-made [there's a video for proof for making mara] so we can't go againts this.

regardless, it is a derived work, and in violation of the CC license if this game is "commercial".

what part of

BY-SA

did you both fail to understand?

[kharnov]

it seems they are doing little to no engine work, they are all artists.

Nalf is a programmer. As far as I know, he has worked on modding GPP and Tremstats. Some of the others might be programmers too, their credit list doesn't say who specifically does what.

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

Nalf is a programmer. As far as I know, he has worked on modding GPP and Tremstats. Some of the others might be programmers too, their credit list doesn't say who specifically does what.

I don't know any of the others, but stating the obvious, rota's also a programmer. He made the funko mod [R Funserver CZ] for 1.1 and made a gpp version for his R unlimited CZ afterall....

as far as I know the game is copyrighted. :S Anyone else have a clue about this? The game's release is due by 2014.

a non-existent thing cannot be copyrighted.

Can't you copyright a project that's in developement?

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

what part of

BY-SA

did you both fail to understand?

good point, lets get to specifics.

Under the following conditions:

    Attribution — You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work).

    Share Alike — If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one.

they say they have "completely recreated assets".  even if it is "original work", it is virtually identical to the source.  the objects in question are not common objects or symbols, they are exclusive to tremulous, and released under this license.

now, the question is: is it wrong because it is identical and does not give proper attribution, or is it wrong because it has built upon the origional work, and does not have proper attribution?

[/dev/humancontroller]

after checking the Tremulous 2 website again, i have the following to say:

• let's not get ahead of ourselves. the developers state that they will remodel everything from scratch. the game is not released yet, so that claim may become true. otherwise, the CC-BY-SA license will have to be applied to the released models, but only upon the release.
• some content presented on the website is derived work, so even that should be accompanied by attribution (and share-alike-ness) right now. such content is the picture of a dretch, although this is not an ultra big infringement.

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

What about sounds?
Even if they do get new sounds, i'm sure the community will complain about the new granger sound if it's significantly different.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

after checking the Tremulous 2 website again, i have the following to say:

• let's not get ahead of ourselves. the developers state that they will remodel everything from scratch. the game is not released yet, so that claim may become true. otherwise, the CC-BY-SA license will have to be applied to the released models, but only upon the release.
• some content presented on the website is derived work, so even that should be accompanied by attribution (and share-alike-ness) right now. such content is the picture of a dretch, although this is not an ultra big infringement.

and what of the redone maps, like ACTS?

and how about the blurry line of duplicating something from scratch, and copying/ building upon the original?

let me ask it this way - if i modeled my own WH40k hive tyrant, and put it in a game i sold, would i be breaking copyright?  it is my own "original" work, made from scratch.

[Loki]

And how about a cup of shut tf up?
Be glad somebody is making it, cos these developers do nothing for now and we were waiting for 1.2v 5 years, after 3 years there came 1.2 gpp and I was asking myself, are they serious? Now it's 2013 and shit happens except Tremulous 2 on UE3.

Go see their Marauder-making video, they made it from nothing, not from these models. It's their now. If you don't like it, too bad. 

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

And how about a cup of shut tf up?
Be glad somebody is making it, cos these developers do nothing for now and we were waiting for 1.2v 5 years, after 3 years there came 1.2 gpp and I was asking myself, are they serious? Now it's 2013 and shit happens except Tremulous 2 on UE3.

Go see their Marauder-making video, they made it from nothing, not from these models. It's their now. If you don't like it, too bad. 

you dont understand how copyright works.
i shall not be glad these assholes are trying to make a buck on the tremulous name.  that is as wrong as the nexuiz debacle.

i'd rather see trem dead and gone than watch the mockery of a commercial version see release.

you also missed an important point - they made their models from nothing..... exactly duplicating the models in trem.  if i made my own starcraft hydralisk model from scratch, would it be legal or ethical for me to distribute it in my own game (either FOS or commercial) claiming it was origional work?

or how about another example:
i could very legally make a robot that turns into a handgun and include it in any work i do.  conversly, it would be illegal for me to create my own megatron and distribute as if it were mine.



this shit isnt just legally wrong, it is morally wrong.  the fact that you are able to suspend your morals just because of a carrot on a stick (which, lets be honest, is never going to see the light of day - that website has seen pretty much no additions since whatshisface posted the first thread about it.) says quite a bit about your own character.


BTW, taking preorders for openoffice 2! only $299.99!

[/dev/humancontroller]

if i made my own starcraft hydralisk model from scratch, would it be legal or ethical for me to distribute it in my own game (either FOS or commercial) claiming it was origional work?

if you create the model based on non-copyrightable ideas (at least in some countries), such as the following design points:

• alien creature
• short snake-like body figure
• 2 small hands, but no other limbs
• the tail is semi-railroad-like
• greenish overall color
• moves like snakes
• is able to spray liquid from its head

then modeling the model will be original. however, if you create the model by looking a picture of such a pre-existing model -- copying details --, then that model will be derivative work.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

if i made my own starcraft hydralisk model from scratch, would it be legal or ethical for me to distribute it in my own game (either FOS or commercial) claiming it was origional work?

if you create the model based on non-copyrightable ideas (at least in some countries), such as the following design points:

• alien creature
• short snake-like body figure
• 2 small hands, but no other limbs
• the tail is semi-railroad-like
• greenish overall color
• moves like snakes
• is able to spray liquid from its head

then modeling the model will be original. however, if you create the model by looking a picture of such a pre-existing model -- copying details --, then that model will be derivative work.

yes. 

which brings us back to:

Under the following conditions:

    Attribution — You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work).

    Share Alike — If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one.

correct me if i am wrong, but posting images and videos counts as "publishing", yes?

and nowhere do they give proper attribution.  they are already in violation.

the funny thing is i would be much more supportive of UV if they had went this route, and much more happy with this project if they would have taken the UV route and designed their own shit.

[/dev/humancontroller]

correct me if i am wrong, but posting images and videos counts as "publishing", yes?

and nowhere do they give proper attribution.  they are already in violation.

yes.

[Loki]

ninja you dont understand, tremulous is free so developers cant get money for this oldie so it isnt their job, it isnt their first thing. AAA Games are not assholes, you may be if you can't figure it out. They offer PAYMENT for working on T2. That means it'll be made.

People you are talking here about licenses, what about you go sue them? Let's see who will win. Less talking, more doing if you are so sure they're fking copyright stuff up. Please, go on, I want it to see.

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

They offer PAYMENT for working on T2. That means it'll be made.

Despite the wording causing confusion in my mind, I don't think the project will last as long as Unvanquished as Unv has actually done more productive work with alpha updates to show the community they're progressing. So far all i've seen are assets in Trem2, and Rota even said they "cannot start until their project is accepted" or something like that. This means the project isn't even guaranteed it will start into the non-assets development..

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

ninja you dont understand, tremulous is free so developers cant get money for this oldie so it isnt their job, it isnt their first thing. AAA Games are not assholes, you may be if you can't figure it out. They offer PAYMENT for working on T2. That means it'll be made.

People you are talking here about licenses, what about you go sue them? Let's see who will win. Less talking, more doing if you are so sure they're fking copyright stuff up. Please, go on, I want it to see.

because every project that has been cancelled never paid for work, right?

do you see the flaw in your logic?

you are right, tremulous is free.  AAA would do much better going the UV route, and USING NOTHING FROM TREMULOUS, NOT EVEN THE NAME (though in UV's case, they are adapting and modifying tremulous' source code into openwoolf, and building on top of it)  using tremulous' free and open sourced material to make a commercial project is wrong in my opinion, and makes those who attempt to do so assoles of the magnitude of those who took nexuiz commercial.  and how that turned out is quite publicly visible.

as for lawsuits, i could not sue even if i wanted to.  i am not a copyright holder in this matter.  this does not mean that i cannot call plagiarizing assholes out on their copyright violation.

lets go over it one more time, in tl;DR format.

using original assets and name = good

using work derivative of assets in trem without proper attribution, and tremulous name = bad

tthey could do a 1:1 duplication of the gameplay, provided it is in a properly licensed engine, with their own code.  that is good.

[Loki]

ninja you dont understand, tremulous is free so developers cant get money for this oldie so it isnt their job, it isnt their first thing. AAA Games are not assholes, you may be if you can't figure it out. They offer PAYMENT for working on T2. That means it'll be made.

People you are talking here about licenses, what about you go sue them? Let's see who will win. Less talking, more doing if you are so sure they're fking copyright stuff up. Please, go on, I want it to see.

because every project that has been cancelled never paid for work, right?

do you see the flaw in your logic?

you are right, tremulous is free.  AAA would do much better going the UV route, and USING NOTHING FROM TREMULOUS, NOT EVEN THE NAME (though in UV's case, they are adapting and modifying tremulous' source code into openwoolf, and building on top of it)  using tremulous' free and open sourced material to make a commercial project is wrong in my opinion, and makes those who attempt to do so assoles of the magnitude of those who took nexuiz commercial.  and how that turned out is quite publicly visible.

as for lawsuits, i could not sue even if i wanted to.  i am not a copyright holder in this matter.  this does not mean that i cannot call plagiarizing assholes out on their copyright violation.

lets go over it one more time, in tl;DR format.

using original assets and name = good

using work derivative of assets in trem without proper attribution, and tremulous name = bad

tthey could do a 1:1 duplication of the gameplay, provided it is in a properly licensed engine, with their own code.  that is good.

I'm pretty sure I wrote already everything what you did now, you're repeating your opinions.
Rota is Trem fan so I'm sure that it will be better than 1.2 gpp, can't say if 1.1.
If you are not the owner of these laws then why do you bother? I don't even...

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

ninja you dont understand, tremulous is free so developers cant get money for this oldie so it isnt their job, it isnt their first thing. AAA Games are not assholes, you may be if you can't figure it out. They offer PAYMENT for working on T2. That means it'll be made.

People you are talking here about licenses, what about you go sue them? Let's see who will win. Less talking, more doing if you are so sure they're fking copyright stuff up. Please, go on, I want it to see.

because every project that has been cancelled never paid for work, right?

do you see the flaw in your logic?

you are right, tremulous is free.  AAA would do much better going the UV route, and USING NOTHING FROM TREMULOUS, NOT EVEN THE NAME (though in UV's case, they are adapting and modifying tremulous' source code into openwoolf, and building on top of it)  using tremulous' free and open sourced material to make a commercial project is wrong in my opinion, and makes those who attempt to do so assoles of the magnitude of those who took nexuiz commercial.  and how that turned out is quite publicly visible.

as for lawsuits, i could not sue even if i wanted to.  i am not a copyright holder in this matter.  this does not mean that i cannot call plagiarizing assholes out on their copyright violation.

lets go over it one more time, in tl;DR format.

using original assets and name = good

using work derivative of assets in trem without proper attribution, and tremulous name = bad

tthey could do a 1:1 duplication of the gameplay, provided it is in a properly licensed engine, with their own code.  that is good.

I'm pretty sure I wrote already everything what you did now, you're repeating your opinions.
Rota is Trem fan so I'm sure that it will be better than 1.2 gpp, can't say if 1.1.
If you are not the owner of these laws then why do you bother? I don't even...

no, you did not write any of that down, what you wrote was in direct opposition to what a wrote, see:

And how about a cup of shut tf up?
Be glad somebody is making it, cos these developers do nothing for now and we were waiting for 1.2v 5 years, after 3 years there came 1.2 gpp and I was asking myself, are they serious? Now it's 2013 and shit happens except Tremulous 2 on UE3.

Go see their Marauder-making video, they made it from nothing, not from these models. It's their now. If you don't like it, too bad. 

i dont care if rota is a trem fan, that gives him no right to attempt to make money from the trem name and trem assets.  he also made and/or maintains unlimeted build points, which inspires very little confidence with me.

laws are now owned by private citizens (or subjects if you live in some form of monarchy).  even if i am not the rightsholder, this does nothing to restrict my ability to express my views on the matter, or state the obvious - that rota and his team are in violation of law.


you are going to have to work much harder to get me to support these plagiarizing assholes.

[/dev/humancontroller]

i dont care if rota is a trem fan, that gives him no right to attempt to make money from the trem name and trem assets.

the CC-BY-SA does -- provided that attribution statements are given.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

i dont care if rota is a trem fan, that gives him no right to attempt to make money from the trem name and trem assets.

the CC-BY-SA does -- provided that attribution statements are given.

yes, provided that.  which, at this point in time is not provided.

so, at this point in time, my point stands.

[vcxzet]

The Share Alike aspect requires all derivatives of a work to be licensed under the same (or a compatible) license as the original. Thus, if a person were to use parts of a BY-SA movie to create a new short film that new short film would also need to be licensed as BY-SA. The advantage of this license is that future users are not able to add new restrictions to a derivative of your work; their derivatives must be licensed the same way. This is in contrast to the Attribution-only license from CC where a derivative could be released under full copyright restrictions (All Rights Reserved).

I dont care if they remodel everything. If they look like the originals, they are derivative work. Thus, CC-SA license applies Note that it is an ambiguous license; no good for commercial projects.
He could follow a path like Nexuiz Console. But he doesn't own the tremulous title.
I checked the moddb page and still nothing new.

[Loki]

i dont care if rota is a trem fan, that gives him no right to attempt to make money from the trem name and trem assets.

the CC-BY-SA does -- provided that attribution statements are given.

yes, provided that.  which, at this point in time is not provided.

so, at this point in time, my point stands.

Similar isn't same, please go talk to rota if you have problem with him and his company, why don't you go right now?

[/dev/humancontroller]

CC-SA [...] is an ambiguous license; no good for commercial projects.

ORLY. i can legally make money by selling CC-SA, or even CC-BY-SA products. just like that quadregen d00d did/does.

Similar isn't same

similar can, however, be derived.

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

Similar isn't same, please go talk to rota if you have problem with him and his company, why don't you go right now?

i dont have to talk to rota, as this will very likely fade away with no comment.  he's free to see all of this discussion if he ever logs on here.  furthermore, it is not my responsibility to inform him he is in violation of copyright.  it is a developers own responsibility to make sure no copyright is violated in his work, unless he is well off enough to get a (team of) lawyer(s).

as for the first part of your post....   have you just been ignoring the bulk of this thread?  last post you said "i posted everything you just said", yet here you are posting directly in opposition to that very sentiment.   kind of like that quote of yours i threw at you.

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

nless he is well off enough to get a (team of) lawyer(s).

Now that you said it, I don't think Tremulous is any match for court anyway, I mean, who the hell's going to pay for lawyers to support ourselves? Despite this game is dying anyway... It's a one-sided argument in my opinion...

[RAKninja-Decepticon]

nless he is well off enough to get a (team of) lawyer(s).

Now that you said it, I don't think Tremulous is any match for court anyway, I mean, who the hell's going to pay for lawyers to support ourselves? Despite this game is dying anyway... It's a one-sided argument in my opinion...

in a "commercial" game, such is not an option.  this is why the big publishers keep such large teams of lawyers.  their primary function is to ensure the company does not publish a legal cock up waiting to happen, like this.

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

That reminds me... There was a case several years ago about one company trying to sue the other one... Instead of solving via court, they decided to have a 20 minute duel of their best Quake 3 players in a game of quake 3 arena... (BTW It didn't show the results...) And i guess that's the easiest way to solve this problem, if it ever comes up.