Author Topic: Tremulous 2?  (Read 167984 times)

Qrntz

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2013, 05:40:02 pm »
That reminds me... There was a case several years ago about one company trying to sue the other one... Instead of solving via court, they decided to have a 20 minute duel of their best Quake 3 players in a game of quake 3 arena... (BTW It didn't show the results...) And i guess that's the easiest way to solve this problem, if it ever comes up.
You are silly.

You make up Qrntz, u always angry, just calmdown. :police:
I am stupid idiot who dares to open mouth and start debating

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2013, 07:03:29 pm »
That reminds me... There was a case several years ago about one company trying to sue the other one... Instead of solving via court, they decided to have a 20 minute duel of their best Quake 3 players in a game of quake 3 arena... (BTW It didn't show the results...) And i guess that's the easiest way to solve this problem, if it ever comes up.
You are silly.
lol, publicity stunt.

also, wow did bethesda turn into assholes.
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Timbo

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2013, 04:59:32 pm »
FWIW they asked if they could use the name and I said no. I haven't heard anything since.

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2013, 07:47:46 pm »
FWIW they asked if they could use the name and I said no. I haven't heard anything since.

good man.

would it be to forward of me to ask why you said no?
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Timbo

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2013, 03:15:40 pm »
> I contacting you because you are author of the Tremulous
> game. Me and many others love that game very much, but sadly
> game still losing players and will die soon.

It is inevitable that something as old as Tremulous will wane in
popularity somewhat.

> That is reason, why our independent team did decision that
> we will completely recreate this game and will add many new
> features.

Completely recreating Tremulous from scratch is an unrealistically large
quantity of work if you're looking at achieving contemporary standards,
unless you can afford to throw a lot of talented professionals at it.
UE3 will of course give you a step up, but don't over-estimate how much
using an existing engine actually gets you in practice.

> Our goal is to achieve same atmosphere and
> gameplay. Because of that we choosed name Tremulous 2 for
> this game. I want to ask you, if you have any problem with
> that, or no.

I would want you to use a different name. From your point of view you
should want to create and name something that can stand on its own feet
without relying on the legacy of another aging game. In many ways this
is how Tremulous came about. Many of its developers were fans of the
Quake 2 mod Gloom. Tremulous is fairly heavily inspired by its game-play.

> We are not some fans developers whose will
> break apart after month. We will spend all time and money
> for developing this game - I was quit my job already.

That's a huge risk to take; good luck. Please find a different name though.

> I can promise some gifts for you like author (plushy
> Granger, game in special paper box etc.).

To be honest, if you were to successfully profit from the existing
Tremulous intellectual property I think that we would expect to be
hugely more recompensed that a few soft toys etc. A formal licensing
agreement would obviously be required.

/dev/humancontroller

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2013, 05:41:10 pm »
A formal licensing agreement would obviously be required.
ie., GPLv2+ and CC-BY-SA.

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2013, 07:29:12 pm »
thank you timbo, that was actually just slightly more detail than i really needed, but i truly appreciate your openness.  many devs would not have responded at all to my request, let alone copypaste their private communications

A formal licensing agreement would obviously be required.
ie., GPLv2+ and CC-BY-SA.
but, but if they did that.....  anyone who buys their game can freely distribute it, and they would make no money!

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Qrntz

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2013, 08:11:58 pm »
> I can promise some gifts for you like author (plushy
> Granger, game in special paper box etc.).
:o

You make up Qrntz, u always angry, just calmdown. :police:
I am stupid idiot who dares to open mouth and start debating

CreatureofHell

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2013, 08:27:20 pm »
> I can promise some gifts for you like author (plushy
> Granger, game in special paper box etc.).
:o

I'm sold.
{NoS}StalKer
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<Timbo> posting on the trem forums rarely results in anything good

Loki

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2013, 09:35:30 am »
Ye! The whole point of your arrogant answering was about leaving tremulous to end his nice ages dying without players. Suit yourself.
Every single post of me 2012 and below must be left ignored. That wasn't me. That must've been some retarded kid.

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2013, 05:55:37 pm »
Ye! The whole point of your arrogant answering was about leaving tremulous to end his nice ages dying without players. Suit yourself.
better that than to be "commercial".

again: see nexuiz.
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vcxzet

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2013, 08:10:29 am »
Stop spamming. You will not get my money and hopefully others.

Trailer shows nothing. I'd call it a teaser but again it shows nothing.

As far as I can tell, They have spent more time on the graphics on that kickstarter page than the actual game.
However, they don't even have the name rights. People who paid for are wasting their money.

So far all I see is nothing more than a bunch of renders.

If I wanted a good commercial alien vs human game in a style similar to tremulous I would play Natural Selection 2.
Unvanquished is also a nice open source experiment. I wouldn't call it a game yet. But still it is more promising than Tremulous2.

CreatureofHell

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2013, 03:04:14 pm »
Tesla Generator = a new building
{NoS}StalKer
Quote
<Timbo> posting on the trem forums rarely results in anything good

NomadCZ

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2013, 09:48:01 pm »
You should all be glad that this amazing game will be remade into something even better. The developers of the original tremulous do nothing, they don't care about tremulous dying.

I'm sure T2 will be released and popular.

/dev/humancontroller

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2013, 02:53:44 am »
People who paid for are wasting their money.
i accidentally the.
Unvanquished is also a nice open source experiment. I wouldn't call it a game yet. But still it is more promising than Tremulous2.
both are toilet paper.

I'm sure T2 will be released
perhaps.
and popular.
i'll try to make sure that doesn't become true.

SirFrancisBacon

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2013, 07:44:03 am »
I don't even like the Unreal 3 engine. The muddy textures when you get close were apparent in the Unreal 3 demo that i played (didn't worry me much then), but i got turned off finally with Mirrors Edge.

It's probably the low quality textures + bump mapping. The Quake 3 engine has low quality textures as well but since it doesn't have bump mapping it isn't so jarring (for me at least).
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 07:52:19 am by SirFrancisBacon »

Loki

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2013, 08:32:38 pm »
@SirFrancisBacon: Yeah that stuff of UE3 engine was making me crazy@blacklight retribution, apb reloaded. Mirror's Edge however worked very well. Hope T2 will also, gl to T2 dev Team and bb to T1 dev Team. And ef off to ppl who want to leave this game dying with empty servers.

From beginning of this game I played and I'd rather let the whole game being rebuild than let it die so harshly. I guess you all want to do. Well anyway what if they'll rename the game? What then will you flame them for?
Every single post of me 2012 and below must be left ignored. That wasn't me. That must've been some retarded kid.

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2013, 06:13:55 am »
. Well anyway what if they'll rename the game? What then will you flame them for?
only what i have before, that assets be properly attributed.

i'll also point out the example of nexuiz from time to time.
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vcxzet

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2013, 11:43:02 pm »
new artwork revealed

ULTRA Random ViruS

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2013, 12:37:06 pm »
new artwork revealed
can't find the like button... oh wait

rotacak

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2013, 09:29:24 pm »

To be honest, if you were to successfully profit from the existing
Tremulous intellectual property I think that we would expect to be
hugely more recompensed that a few soft toys etc. A formal licensing
agreement would obviously be required.

Hi,

first of all, I want to apologize, I did not recieved any reply from you/sourceforge and kharnov pointed me now here from irc.

Actually, we do not need to have Tremulous name. We wanted to name it Tremulous 2, because we want to create successor, not different game. That is all. This name will not bring success, money or anything else. On the contrary it can make Tremulous 1 unforgotten (not like forgotten Gloom and remembered Tremulous). This name bringing good things only to old Tremulous, we cannot even register this name as a trademark etc.
   
But can I ask what do you exactly mean by recompensation and licensing agreement?

I don't know if you will read this (hopefully someone notice you, I will send you pm here too).

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2013, 01:22:39 am »

To be honest, if you were to successfully profit from the existing
Tremulous intellectual property I think that we would expect to be
hugely more recompensed that a few soft toys etc. A formal licensing
agreement would obviously be required.

Hi,

first of all, I want to apologize, I did not recieved any reply from you/sourceforge and kharnov pointed me now here from irc.

Actually, we do not need to have Tremulous name. We wanted to name it Tremulous 2, because we want to create successor, not different game. That is all. This name will not bring success, money or anything else. On the contrary it can make Tremulous 1 unforgotten (not like forgotten Gloom and remembered Tremulous). This name bringing good things only to old Tremulous, we cannot even register this name as a trademark etc.
   
But can I ask what do you exactly mean by recompensation and licensing agreement?

I don't know if you will read this (hopefully someone notice you, I will send you pm here too).
if you want to make it a successor game, then make it free and open source.

otherwise, regardless of intention, it makes you out to look as if you are trying to cash in on tremulous' name and fanbase.

while i am not on the dev team, i would think it safe to assume "recompensation and licensing agreement" means $$$.  such things typically include an upfront payment, and also a royalty for every unit sold.
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/dev/humancontroller

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2013, 07:51:35 am »
many independent developers have contributed to the artwork ("assets") and source code of the game, including me. both are released under permissive, but unchangable licenses. commercial use is allowed, but all changes to the source code must be released, and attribution must be given to the artists -- this is not just appreciated, it is required. to use the content otherwise (ie., releasing it under a proprietary license), you are required to contact all contributors, asking them if they will grant you an exclusive license to the relevant artwork or source code. you will fail at this, because:
  • you will fail to contact all contributors, as there are simply too many to contact, and there is no contact information available for many of them.
  • you will not reach an agreement to an exclusive license with at least 1 person, me -- and i have contributed a considerable amount of source code, and furthermore, others have made changes on top of my source code; it is therefore practically impossible to spot my contributions, and it is just impossible to rip them out without ripping out all further code.

note: sending cash to the owners of the tremulous.net domain (to "the tyrants of tremulous.net"), or to any other group that decides to call itself darklegion development, has nothing to do with negotiating an exclusive license, no matter what someone tells you, and no matter what you think (you have to ask for a license from each individual developer, and no group represents all of them). however, everyone appreciates cash, even non-developers, and even completely irrelevant entities. it's just that you will fail to distribute cash appropriately, because:
  • you will fail to find the bank account of all contributors, for (by now) obvious reasons.
  • it is practically impossible to reason about the proportion of the cash deserved by any particular contributor. specifically, sending cash to the tyrants of tremulous.net is arguably one of the most misproportional donations you'll ever make.

rotacak

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2013, 10:37:25 am »
/dev/humancontroller: yes, that is quite understandable. But don't worry I will not send any cash to anyone. I was talking about name only.

Timbo

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2013, 11:14:52 am »
Actually, we do not need to have Tremulous name. We wanted to name it Tremulous 2, because we want to create successor, not different game. That is all. This name will not bring success, money or anything else. On the contrary it can make Tremulous 1 unforgotten (not like forgotten Gloom and remembered Tremulous). This name bringing good things only to old Tremulous, we cannot even register this name as a trademark etc.
   
But can I ask what do you exactly mean by recompensation and licensing agreement?

The copyright on Tremulous is owned by myself and others, meaning that if you wish to use the intellectual property outside of the terms under which it is released, you must seek authorisation from the copyright owners. Since "Tremulous 2" is a commercial project, you are presumably not wanting to adhere to said licensing terms and must contact all copyright owners to gain their permission. You contacted me in November and I declined so that should be the end of it. By all means you are free to make a game similar to Tremulous under whatever terms you see fit, but if you make a game that is Tremulous you must respect the license under which it was released and the wishes of the copyright owners.

When I mentioned being recompensed and a licensing agreement I was talking hypothetically. My point was simply that if somebody is going to profit from my (and others') work, I expect to receive some of that profit beyond the token gesture that you appeared to be offering in your email. This is an irrelevance however since permission has not been given for the project to go forward, so no such profit will exist.

I hope this clears things up.

rotacak

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2013, 02:55:21 pm »
Timbo: I see. I like to know also your opinion on these things:

if somebody is going to profit from my (and others') work, I expect to receive some of that profit
Thanks to current license anyone can sell really your work (not something created from scratch by someone else) without any profit for you. That is ok? Why?

Another thing is name "Tremulous". You did not guarded it by trademark but you demanding rights to it. When do you think someone else can use this name again? After year, when servers will be empty? After 5 years when master server will be offline and tremulous.net domain will expire? After 50 years because ...? Never? Trademark have this clearly solved "live/dead".

Thanks for reply.

amz181

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2013, 03:00:15 pm »
Basically rota, you will save yourself a huge headache down the line, if you just change the name and change the alien models to be less identical to trem models.

It wont change anything about the game you want to make, but it'll keep everyone from whining. Just do it, it isn't that hard to rebrand this early on, and seeing as not many models have been made, changing the aliens wont be difficult either. There is no reason to be so stubborn about keeping the same name. Like I said above, it will complicate things needlessly if you keep things the same as they are now. Just do the small amount of work to change things, and everyones happy.

Also on a side note, deciding to do a kickstarter was ill advised. Trem has never had that large of a community, let alone in recent months. Theres no way you could possibly get anywhere near your target, with the community being the size that it is.

Timbo

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2013, 03:42:36 pm »
Thanks to current license anyone can sell really your work (not something created from scratch by someone else) without any profit for you. That is ok? Why?

The fact that it can be sold doesn't mean it is sold. Why would anyone buy it when they can download it for nothing?

Quote from: rotacak
Another thing is name "Tremulous". You did not guarded it by trademark but you demanding rights to it. When do you think someone else can use this name again? After year, when servers will be empty? After 5 years when master server will be offline and tremulous.net domain will expire? After 50 years because ...? Never? Trademark have this clearly solved "live/dead".

I think you're mixing up copyright and trademark law. It's highly unlikely that a dictionary word like tremulous could be trademarked in the first place, not that I would even bother trying. I'm asserting the copyright which anyone who makes a creative work automatically gets (at least in most countries). The copyright covers the entire game content, not just the name.

As I said before, you have every right to make whatever game you like, under whatever terms you like, but it cannot be Tremulous. If you want to make something that is Tremulous, you must abide by the licenses under which it was released.

rotacak

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Re: Tremulous 2?
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2013, 04:12:57 pm »
change the alien models to be less identical to trem models.
Who will judge, if granger is still granger or already something else?

It wont change anything about the game you want to make, but it'll keep everyone from whining. ... Just do the small amount of work to change things, and everyones happy.
You really think so? Ask yourself, why players whining (not developers).

Also on a side note, deciding to do a kickstarter was ill advised. Trem has never had that large of a community, let alone in recent months. Theres no way you could possibly get anywhere near your target, with the community being the size that it is.
Ahh, you thinking that we using Tremulous name because of Kickstarter...

Undeference

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IANAL but I play one on TV
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2013, 04:18:55 pm »
Another thing is name "Tremulous". You did not guarded it by trademark but you demanding rights to it.
I am fairly certain that in the limited context where the word "tremulous" unambiguously refers to this game, it is covered by a common law trademark, where it exists, even despite lack of the ™ symbol. E.g., tremulus would be fine (even if it were spelled correctly) because it is unlikely to be confused with this game and trademark scope is limited. However, "Tremulous 2" exactly falls within the scope of the hypothetical common law mark.

In most jurisdictions, common law marks must be registered in order to be enforced but then must be enforced in order to be maintained. In practice, owning registered marks is expensive.

It's highly unlikely that a dictionary word like tremulous could be trademarked in the first place
It happens all the time. The thing is that the trademark has a limited scope, so using a dictionary word for its intended meaning is not covered by any marks. E.g., apples can never infringe Apple marks (even if they look exactly like the Apple logo), nor can windows infringe Microsoft marks, nor can the sun, oracles, java (or Java) infringe Oracle marks.
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