TJW new version of Tremulous

[ExistentialRisk]

While I think most of the changes I've seen on the TJW list so far seem reasonable, I must admit I agree with an earlier poster that the basilisk is an illogical choice for a healing aura.  Assassin/debuffer makes sense.  Assassin/healer does not.  Lisks have to do a lot of travelling in inaccessible places to do well in their assassin role, which means no healing for the poor non-wallwalkers who would be hard-pressed to locate the lisk in the first place... If aliens -did- have a way to locate lisks with the alien 'radar', it also may not be very fun for stealth-loving lisks to have every wounded alien training humans to their location.

I think the other lisk improvements will stand well on their own without the extra baggage of healing powers.

If lisks must be the medics, then give them a more in-character way to do it instead of the aura.  Let them have an infrequent healing gas that instantly gives all aliens exposed a persistent healing effect comparable to their 1.1 heal rate for a time, or let them drop an object that sits for a minute and creates a healing aura.  If you really want to have fun with this, make it so lisks have a special attack that makes a promptly killed human become an alien-healing aura maggot or something.   But please don't make lisks be forced to just stand around healing.

In the same vein, I am concerned that even as forward bases are made more essential to aliens, grangers have been made less fun to play by slowing them down.  Now not only do grangers need to travel more, they can't get there as fast.  Boy!  Sign me up to granger!  

If they must slog their way to the front, at any speed, they will need escorts... so maybe give -them- the healing aura and let that teamwork element develop naturally.

Just my $.02

[kevlarman]

I've been playing on trem.tjw.org since the very first of these changes. the main reason that lisks got the healing aura was because tyrants were way too strong at the time and lisks were hit very hard by the regen nerf, if you got caught by a lasgun at range you were basically dead. lisks actually still do very well as assasins: you can sit near the human base healing larger aliens and feed off the humans chasing down injured goons and tyrants, or just use the chaos caused by larger aliens to pick off stray humans. it also makes adv. lisk a much more worthwhile upgrade (although you could argue that the new gas is good enough to warrant the second evo), there was basically no reason to spend twice the evos for 2hp/sec->3hp/sec and 25 extra hp unless you had evos to waste, 4hp/sec->9hp/sec is a much larger difference. It also makes them somewhat unique among the aliens: they go down quickly due to low hp and a very large hitbox compared to the dretch, but if they live through one fight they are ready for the next one in a matter of seconds (and i would much rather see that attribute on a lisk than a tyrant).

ps: please come own me on trem.tjw.org sometime.

[Plague Bringer]

Any hope for any of the following?;

Gibs, changing the side of the screen your gun is on, different taunts for humans to choose from, alien claws on the screen (in place of the gun).

[kevlarman]

Any hope for any of the following?;

Gibs, changing the side of the screen your gun is on, different taunts for humans to choose from, alien claws on the screen (in place of the gun).

no, maybe, yes, yes (respectively)

[Plague Bringer]

Aww, no gibs. Meh, we can live.

[Norfenstein]

... Assassin/debuffer makes sense.  Assassin/healer does not. ...

Sorry to say this, but the problem is I don't see an assassin class fitting into Tremulous at all; anything a basilisk can do offesnively a goon can do better. The challenge might be more fun, but more likely than not you'd be doing more for your team with a higher class. Making the basilisk a healer/debuffer lets people with few frags help their team, and hopefully people will consider its offensive abilities superior to the dretch's so they won't feed as much with the latter.

I am concerned that even as forward bases are made more essential to aliens, grangers have been made less fun to play by slowing them down.  Now not only do grangers need to travel more, they can't get there as fast.  Boy!  Sign me up to granger!

The reason for this was it just wasn't fun for humans to have a ridiculously difficult time killing an otherwise defenseless 0-frag class. On maps where wallwalking presents significant opportunities for escaping humans grangers were just too good at endlessly prolonging games. I haven't seen anyone else complain about the speed being less fun, only that they get killed more often.

Any hope for any of the following?;

Gibs ...

no

Really? I'd like gibs, especially witth the tyrant squish... we'd need models though... I wouldn't expect new human taunts, but someone (Stannum?) was working on visible alien weapons a while back...

[David]

I am concerned that even as forward bases are made more essential to aliens, grangers have been made less fun to play by slowing them down.  Now not only do grangers need to travel more, they can't get there as fast.  Boy!  Sign me up to granger!

The reason for this was it just wasn't fun for humans to have a ridiculously difficult time killing an otherwise defenseless 0-frag class. On maps where wallwalking presents significant opportunities for escaping humans grangers were just too good at endlessly prolonging games. I haven't seen anyone else complain about the speed being less fun, only that they get killed more often.

How about you make the Granger move normal speed when the OM is up?
Stops the endless endgame eggspam, allows forward bases.

[Plague Bringer]

I am concerned that even as forward bases are made more essential to aliens, grangers have been made less fun to play by slowing them down.  Now not only do grangers need to travel more, they can't get there as fast.  Boy!  Sign me up to granger!

The reason for this was it just wasn't fun for humans to have a ridiculously difficult time killing an otherwise defenseless 0-frag class. On maps where wallwalking presents significant opportunities for escaping humans grangers were just too good at endlessly prolonging games. I haven't seen anyone else complain about the speed being less fun, only that they get killed more often.

How about you make the Granger move normal speed when the OM is up?
Stops the endless endgame eggspam, allows forward bases.

Lol. Yeah, I agree. Lag them shitless when the OM is down, but give them a chance when it's up. Transit; Aliens cannot move base because the grangers are slow as mud. Any map with a large starting base; aliens cannot fortify/move because it takes them fifteen minutes to get to the other side of the base.

EDIT (Better idea): If you believe that the problem lies in the granger's speed while wallwalking, just nerf their speed while wallwalking, but give them normal speed on the ground.

[Plague Bringer]

kevlarman wrote:
Plague Bringer wrote:
Any hope for any of the following?;

Gibs ...
no
Really? I'd like gibs, especially witth the tyrant squish... we'd need models though... I wouldn't expect new human taunts, but someone (Stannum?) was working on visible alien weapons a while back...

Unfortunately, Stannum and etc. have seen more active days, eh?

[PHREAK]

I know unlagged and creep heal are here to stay and as such I'd like to propose something.

How about making aliens faster to compensate for unlagged and creep heal benefits to humans?

I believe that it would bring back the old feel of trem while still allowing humans to hit where they aim.

Currently, dretches, basilisks and goons are too easy to kill, regardless of their skill lever simply due to unlagged.
Speeding up those classes would allow aliens to fight effectively while allowing humans to take them down with skill.

Also, aliens would take even more skill since a faster dretch would really require piloting skills with the increased speed.
Basilisk is already too slow, unlagged or not.

As for the goon, with such a large hitbox, unlagged hurts them the most.
Increasing speed would allow a good player to live a bit longer while still requiring skill to take on multiple humans at the same time.
(by speed I mean walking speed, NOT the goon pounce)

Just a though.

[kevlarman]

Really? I'd like gibs, especially witth the tyrant squish... we'd need models though... I wouldn't expect new human taunts, but someone (Stannum?) was working on visible alien weapons a while back...

i meant that gibs weren't being worked on, the gun change is something like 3 lines of code, and "new human taunts" sounds a lot like the vsays that are planned for 1.2

[temple]

... Assassin/debuffer makes sense.  Assassin/healer does not. ...

Sorry to say this, but the problem is I don't see an assassin class fitting into Tremulous at all; anything a basilisk can do offensively a goon can do better. The challenge might be more fun, but more likely than not you'd be doing more for your team with a higher class. Making the basilisk a healer/debuffer lets people with few frags help their team, and hopefully people will consider its offensive abilities superior to the dretch's so they won't feed as much with the latter.

Something with that just doesn't stick.  With helmets, basilisks are in trouble.  Even more so when close to the human base.  Advanced basilisks stand their ground better due to gas.  But overall, it still sounds like people will be playing the weak class.  

Not to flame but it still seems like its the weak class.

[Lakitu7]

My current hopes/suggestions. I do think they're relatively thought out
Thanks as always to Norf for continuing to read this thread.

Please please please remove Unlagged on the saw. People were just beginning to learn the might of the lagsaw militia in 1.1 + unlagged. The range buff for 1.2 makes it way too strong. I don't really have issue with the range buff on its own or the lagsaw on its own, but the combination is nuts. Since the range is supposedly necessitated by the new bsuit height, please de-unlagged it.

While the granger speed nerf has done its job, it's also making base moves and forward bases (which are now more important than ever) a greater pain than they should be. ER has a good point about Granger being even more unfun to play. Perhaps you could consider another method of preventing the eggspam: maybe one of the ones in this thread? A little more speed while the OM is up (maybe 0.8 or something) OR normal speed, but slower during wallwalk both sound like good alternates.

I've always been for adding friendlies to alien radar to reduce rants blocking each other, but I do believe it's more necessary now than ever. I've been told that the new HUD will inform you when you're in range of a basy/booster/creep, but could this also include some kind of directional indicator, if you still do not believe in putting friendlies on the radar? At least tell me which direction the basy is in so that I can spin around and find/follow it. My ideal would have blue blips for friendlies that grow in size in proportion to their class (to not block rants) and glowing blue dots to indicate basy/booster. But even if you won't do that, please, some subset of that information to tell where to find healing would go a long way.

I really like the current trend of making every class/gun/building more useful, but can we do something similar to the Hive? Hives in their current state are mediocre at best but I don't know a decent player that wouldn't rather build another Trapper over a hive any day. Hell, I'd take 1 trapper over 2 hives. I'm not sure if they need a damage buff or a BP decrease or what, but at least one of those would really help.

The thing that troubles me about the regen still is that it validates the Jettard: the alternate form of camping that we all love to hate. Now instead of laughing at how useless the guy at the top of ATCS/Transit/Karith is, an alien will find himself with half health by the time he reaches the base as a result. I suppose one could argue that making those newbs useful might be good for the game, but as an alternative I'd like to see conisderation for some limit on the Jetpack. Let it only be used for 30 seconds out of every 45 or something. Such a change would still allow for all the legit uses of a jetpack but prevent newbs from annoying the crap out of everyone while being a useless, camping, spamming drain on their team.

Questions of balance aside, Phreak's faster aliens would be enjoyable as hell to play for those of us that play aliens like they're on speed all the time, but I think it would have too much of a steep learning curve and be very very difficult to play at lower FPS. Besides, a little strafejumping makes you faster anyway.

Not to flame but it still seems like its the weak class.

I'd like to see you spec or play with {SGA}Ender for a while and see how "weak" the Basy can be in 1.1, then tremble at how crazy it's going to be when all his stats are buffed considerably. Alternately, wait about 3 weeks for ER to learn how to play with again in Unlagged-style Trem and watch him too.

[temple]

Not to flame but it still seems like its the weak class.

I'd like to see you spec or play with {SGA}Ender for a while and see how "weak" the Basy can be in 1.1, then tremble at how crazy it's going to be when all his stats are buffed considerably. Alternately, wait about 3 weeks for ER to learn how to play with again in Unlagged-style Trem and watch him too.

I know how to play a basilisk.  There isn't a reason for me to CHOOSE a basilisk, outside of supporting with regeneration.

Even Norf admitted that there is nothing a basilisk can that a dragoon can't do better.  A player doesn't make the class because if they are good, they can be even better with a stronger class.

I think the marauder and basilisk are too unique in their playstyles.  They aren't played because they are weird, not because they are weak.  Their playstyle makes them weak, not their hitpoints or damage.  Hell, basilisks are pretty tough right now, but the issue is do you risk 1-2 evos to show off when a goon does the same thing (kill enemies), just easier?  Its the ease that makes goons 'better', not really the damage numbers.    

As a human, a gun is a gun.  Its just a matter of learning their particular speed and damage.  Marauders and basilisks aren't like any other class.  I think its like expecting humans to use the massdriver or jetpack all the time.

[Plague Bringer]

I, personally, consider it a wasted evo. Support units are great, but I'd rather be a 1.1 rant; I can heal my team and pound the shit out of human base; rather then a 1.2 basi; sitting on the sidelines, watching the destruction, 5 evos, but not evolving and joining the fun because your team needs a medic.

[kevlarman]

I know how to play a basilisk.  There isn't a reason for me to CHOOSE a basilisk, outside of supporting with regeneration.

you've obviously never seen a single +goon rip through 3 bsuits at once because they were slowed and grabbed by a basi+

[Plague Bringer]

That would fall under supporting.

I know how to play a basilisk. There isn't a reason for me to CHOOSE a basilisk, outside of supporting with regeneration.

[David]

But the basi gets evo for it, so you can use it when you only have 2 evo.
Its never going to be as good as the goon, it costs less.

[dextertrax]

you've obviously never seen a single +goon rip through 3 bsuits at once because they were slowed and grabbed by a basi+

I've seen a blaster own a goon with full health.  At the end of the day, it's still a blaster & the lasgun is still miles better.  

The basi class modifications sound interesting at the very least, but I worry how it'll effect gameplay on the pubs.  I suspect  weaker players will continue to feed (despite now having the chance to offer a supporting role) & the better players will be playing the basi class.

[temple]

I know how to play a basilisk.  There isn't a reason for me to CHOOSE a basilisk, outside of supporting with regeneration.

you've obviously never seen a single +goon rip through 3 bsuits at once because they were slowed and grabbed by a basi+

I love the idea of that. However, it sound damn near impossible with tk'ing the basilisk or the basilisk getting focus fired immediately.

[kevlarman]

I know how to play a basilisk.  There isn't a reason for me to CHOOSE a basilisk, outside of supporting with regeneration.

you've obviously never seen a single +goon rip through 3 bsuits at once because they were slowed and grabbed by a basi+

I love the idea of that. However, it sound damn near impossible with tk'ing the basilisk or the basilisk getting focus fired immediately.

i've been the basi that pulls that stunt, you do end up dying roughly half the time. evos usually aren't an issue because you can feed off the humans trying to chase down goons escaping from the vicinity of the human base.

[Medic]

Maybe I'm the only one that sees this and correct me if my assumption of your assumption is wrong, but it's not like everyone always has a full set of evo's lying around.  I agree, I'd rather be a rant than a basi any day of the week, but with all these increases to basi, I'm at the point where my playstyle will change an actually include the basi.  Normally, I'd have 0 to 2 evo points and laugh at the idea of evolving.  I'd play dretch till I got enough points to evolve into a bigger alien alltogether no matter what stage humans were at.  At S2 and S3, this is obviously going to cause me to feed human a bit while I get my evos.  I may not be so bad at feeding, but everyone else on the pub isn't going to be so great at not feeding.  It is my hope that the 1.2 healing/upgraded basi is going to encourage more people to choose basi while they're working their way up to a higher class alien which will result in helping the team by healing and making people think twice about feeding since they just spent an evo point.

[jit]

i think the basi is an awesome class. if only i knew how to use it >.>
but as seeing that the new  is FREAKIN SWEET [longer range of attack;infinite zap] . you gotta love that infinite zap when a   is running @ you and you just keeping going backward and   you kill it in bout 10seconds WOOT. and another new buff >> the new Flamer is also FREAKIN SWEET with the longer range. all those goons that you kept backing up to that kept hitting you out of flame ranger are now dead . and those new ... they strongly favor skilled aliens since they have a time delay [and move turn slower *i think*] which makes them easy to spin your dretch round them and kill em. The new   and view heights are pretty cool. you can now ks w/ tyrant while looking over dragoon's head with the longer reach . its only drawback is that its hard to see basi's on the ground right in front of you. well those were my 2 cents .

[Norfenstein]

Currently, dretches, basilisks and goons are too easy to kill, regardless of their skill lever simply due to unlagged.

Please please please remove Unlagged on the saw.

I really don't feel like unlagged has unbalanced anything, and especially don't see how disadvanting people with high pings is a sensible way to balance something specific. EDIT: kevlar explained to me there's a little more to it than just having better aim with unlagged, so I won't be opposed to at least trying the saw without it.

Speeding up those classes would allow aliens to fight effectively while allowing humans to take them down with skill.

Making aliens faster would completely defeat the purpose of changing regen in the first place. And I don't agree that dretches, basilisks, and goons are too easy to kill. I don't play on servers with huge player loads however, so maybe that's the difference.

Perhaps you could consider another method of preventing the eggspam: maybe one of the ones in this thread?

I did have another idea (making them fall off walls when damaged), but I'm not yet convinced the slower speed is too much. Maybe wall-falling combined with a smaller reduction in speed.

[Hives suck.]

Yea, agreed, but it's not a high priority at the moment.

Such a change would still allow for all the legit uses of a jetpack but prevent newbs from annoying the crap out of everyone while being a useless, camping, spamming drain on their team.

Kind of contradicting yourself there? I haven't felt like jetpack camping is much of an issue, but I'll pay more attention to it in the future to see if I change my mind.

Even Norf admitted that there is nothing a basilisk can that a dragoon can't do better.

It's a one frag class. You can use one to get more frags to pay for your goon, or stay basilisk and support your team. I don't see why anyone is complaining about the basilisk unless they were particularly fond of the challenge of a "skill" class. They're actually useful enough now that people (even average players) have a reason to evolve from dretch to stop feeding as much. Medic has the right idea.

I think the marauder and basilisk are too unique in their playstyles.

Erm, what? You want the alien classes to be less interesting?

but I worry how it'll effect gameplay on the pubs

No one has to speculate since you can play these changes right now on trem.tjw.org (among other servers).

[dextertrax]

No one has to speculate since you can play these changes right now on trem.tjw.org (among other servers).

I ping 300+ at tjw's.  I'll wait and see how it is in the final.

[Medic]

Lakitu and I were talking about the jetpack thing Norf, I do not think he painted a clear enough scenario.  Maps such as Karith, Transit, ATCS, hell anything with a high cieling will have someone become what I refer to as a jettard.  This is someone with no armor or helm, just a jetpack and something annoying like a driver or a las gun or even just a rifle.  And what this person does is just sits way up high in an area of no strategic value whatsoever and spams and spams and spams.  They are campers for sure, they're just campers that chose to be somewhere that isn't 5ft from their base.  If we put a 30 second limit on the jetpack, it would require someone to use it only as a means to reach high places.  Come to beer-graden mid transit or karith, you'll understand exactly what kind of people I'm talking about.  These people in 1.1 were mild annoyances because after you walk past the jettard's line of sight, you regen your hp.  But say you get hit by a stray lucifer cannon shot/fallout or get MD'ed twice, in 1.2 you're now at a significant disadvantage and potentially you have to abandon an attack altogether.  Or possibly a lucky MD kills your retreating alien.  Being a jettard at the top of a level and serving nothing more than being a nuissance isn't a real service to your team.  With reduced alien regen, I feel that without some kind of limit on the jetpack, more noobish/camper activity is going to increase.

[temple]

I think the marauder and basilisk are too unique in their playstyles.

Erm, what? You want the alien classes to be less interesting?

No, less gimmicky and more useful.

[techhead]

When tjw moved his server, I went from a ping ~150 to a ping <20 and I couldn't tell the difference.
Thank you unlagged, I am mediocre both ways.

I still suck at saw, even with the new range buff.
The flamer speed now leaves noticeable gaps in the stream of fire.
I do think that you took away to much of what Tyrants were meant to be, a powerhouse.
Dretch = Stealth hunter
Basilisk = Stealth trapper
Marauder = Agile hunter-killer
Dragoon = Precision killer
Tyrant = Powerful killer
But now they have been 'norfed' past usefulness.
People complain about them being an end-all final solution for aliens, but the evolution system leaves them no choice. Once a Tyrant, stuck a Tyrant.
In summary, many of Tyrant's problems
1. Still costs 5, and still stuck as Tyrant.
2. Still slow and unwieldy, but now harder to escape.
3. Less range and slower repeat on slash.
4. Removed aura, reduced niche in teamwork.
5. Weaker regen and 350 hp, easier to get killed.
6. Still a big easy target, and noisy enough to hear coming.

On the bright side:
1. With an advanced basilisk, has 27hp/sec regen.
2. Stronger stampede offensively.
3. Still has the best damage dealing capabilities compared to other aliens, but not quite worth it anymore.

Call me if I missed anything.

[Harry Joe]

Played this a bit more to get a better feel for things, and I still gotta say the changes heavily favor humans. Sure, a human team full of clueless rambo's will still most likely lose (though not as often as they should), but a smart human team using teamwork just steamrolls aliens like they were retarded toddlers. This might be fine for some pubs where the majority of players are pretty shitty overall but it's a joke for any real organized matches or games with a lot of better players.

Downing tyrants 1on1 is now incredibly easy w/ a chainsuit, a group of humans tear through them like butter. Mara's are a bit more effective on offense, but still go down extremely easily because of unlagged and their now ineffective dodging skills. Though in 1.1 w/ unlagged mara's are little more then cannon fodder anyways, so it's an improvement there at least. Basi's are a bit more useful, but comes nowhere close to counteracting the rest of the nerfs aliens got.

To cut the rant short (pun lol), I still believe that those making all these changes are listening way too much to people who lack serious skill. In Vanilla 1.1, a human team that is offensive and works in teams is frightningly effective and there is little the alien team can do against them. These changes basically make such teams pretty much unstoppable.

I will say these settings would suck pretty bad for clan matches though. A good human team can allready tear through aliens easily, this just takes away most of the aliens s3 advantage and makes things even easier.

[temple]

I quit playing Tremulous for a couple of weeks and now I'm back again.

After playing 1.10 servers, I ready for these changes.  I want these changes.  They aren't the best ideas, imho. But if aliens got a little bump in hitpoints, I think they will be doable.