TJW new version of Tremulous

[techhead]

If there is anything I am dying to see, its locational damage on mara zap.
Zaps you in the face, it electrifies your skull, until your eyes bug out like this and you die: :eek:.
Conversely for legs, not too bad. :-?

Its the only thing that would make zap even somewhat useful against light armor.

[[A]]

Question

If unlagged is basicaly included in trem 1.2, will it be possible to turn it off  ?

[techhead]

Yes.
And after its introduction and acceptance into the mainstream, and most of the bugs and exploits (Note: Lagsaw) are worked out, it might just become always on.

[temple]

After playing with Unlagged on the Dretch Storm server, I can't play without it now.  It easily compensated for once Aliens get used to it.  Also, Aliens can score hits better themselves.

I think most of the changes will be dealt with well by the community.  
I think the changes could designed differently to improve gameplay but whatever.  

I just want to see camping outside the Human base to end and the whole '10 tyrants knocking down your door' gameplay slack up.  

My only beef is the Sudden Death gameplay.  No armory/no overmind building in SD is lame.  I don't know if TJW changed that.  1 thing that has really been on my mind is giving aliens and maybe even humans more buildables to make the game more like a RTS game.  That way it isn't all about the armory or overmind.  Maybe a tyrant buildable and if you kill that, no more rants.  Whatever, just my 2 cents.

[temple]

New basilisk is bullshit. Just wanted to say that on the record.

[Mispeled]

New basilisk is bullshit. Just wanted to say that on the record.

I agree. It's not hard for me to consistantly kill battlesuited humans, and in 1.1 I can hardly kill naked humans. I can only wonder what guys like ExistentialRisk could do in 1.2, especially with delayed turrets.

[temple]

New basilisk is bullshit. Just wanted to say that on the record.

I agree. It's not hard for me to consistantly kill battlesuited humans, and in 1.1 I can hardly kill naked humans. I can only wonder what guys like ExistentialRisk could do in 1.2, especially with delayed turrets.

I've played with risk and he can lock down 2 humans with the new basilisks.  That gas makes it even worse.

[benmachine]

I've played with risk and he can lock down 2 humans with the new basilisks.  That gas makes it even worse.

Just shows how really, really good ExistentialRisk is, doesn't it?
There are players out there who could lock down 2 humans with a dretch without breaking sweat, doesn't mean dretches are overpowered.

[temple]

I've played with risk and he can lock down 2 humans with the new basilisks.  That gas makes it even worse.

Just shows how really, really good ExistentialRisk is, doesn't it?
There are players out there who could lock down 2 humans with a dretch without breaking sweat, doesn't mean dretches are overpowered.

So are you saying the new basilisks are balanced?

[benmachine]

So are you saying the new basilisks are balanced?

Seems that way. OF course, none of us have that much experience, but I know they don't end games single-handedly. They still have the weakest attack of any offensive class.

[temple]

So are you saying the new basilisks are balanced?

Seems that way. OF course, none of us have that much experience, but I know they don't end games single-handedly. They still have the weakest attack of any offensive class.

I play on TJW any time there is more than 5 players.  Basilisks are fine currently. In 1.20, it is impossible to break their grab unless they mess up.  

It makes basilisks much better to learn but feels overkill.

[benmachine]

That doesn't matter if they never get behind you, and even then going aroound with a teammate will save your life more often than not.
Lest we forget, they're still basilisks. They still have a terrible DPS and can only take two shotgun blasts to the face. Two mass driver shots, three if they're advanced.
It makes basilisks not only much more entertaining to play (since the gas is actually worth a damn and is one of those few attacks that can be devastating while still not doing any damage) but also actually something to fear more than a dretch.

[kevlarman]

So are you saying the new basilisks are balanced?

Seems that way. OF course, none of us have that much experience, but I know they don't end games single-handedly. They still have the weakest attack of any offensive class.

I play on TJW any time there is more than 5 players.  Basilisks are fine currently. In 1.20, it is impossible to break their grab unless they mess up.  

It makes basilisks much better to learn but feels overkill.

the fact that you could just walk out of grab was a bug that was never intended.

[temple]

That doesn't matter if they never get behind you, and even then going aroound with a teammate will save your life more often than not.
Lest we forget, they're still basilisks. They still have a terrible DPS and can only take two shotgun blasts to the face. Two mass driver shots, three if they're advanced.
It makes basilisks not only much more entertaining to play (since the gas is actually worth a damn and is one of those few attacks that can be devastating while still not doing any damage) but also actually something to fear more than a dretch.

With the grab, they get behind you a shit load easier.  That's why I say 1.10 basilisks are fine.  They will own you from the rear but that's it.  1.20 basilisks can touch and run behind you with a a lot more play room.  

The gas is just fucking annoying.  Its like any other crowd control or AoE effect in other games. When spammed, too fucking annoying.  Only battlesuits can deal with either gas or grab effectively without being hassled and that's S3 armor.  

They cost 1-2 evos so basically you will be dealing with it.  This isn't a small thing, its going to be a source of annoyance.  

Combine that with grab and basilisks are too much of a hassle.  Lord help you if there are 2 basilisks.  I look at basilisks like I view flamers on no FF servers.  Bullshit.

[Nux]

the fact that you could just walk out of grab was a bug that was never intended.

What about jetting out of a grab?

After playing with Unlagged on the Dretch Storm server, I can't play without it now. It easily compensated for once Aliens get used to it. Also, Aliens can score hits better themselves.

Why would we want aliens to score hits better than themselves.. whatever that might mean?

[kevlarman]

jetting out of grab/trappers is fixed in svn, not tjw's patch.

[temple]

the fact that you could just walk out of grab was a bug that was never intended.

Basilisk grab is completely effective until you get battlesuits.  That covers S1 and S2, regardless of gear.

The big issue here is a grab, from any direction, will slow the human long enough for the basilisk to get behind it. Helmets allow you spot them in advance but if they get near you prior to killing them, you can potentially lose far more that 1-2 evos worth of credits because of a long ass grab time.

No weapon, medikit, or armor is going to matter once you get behind the human with a basilisk.  Its not balanced.  If grab time was lessened based on armor...I could see why a 1-2 evo basilisk should lock down a naked human.  But a human with full gear, pack, and maybe nade is easily double the cost of the basilisk.  And its just as weak (with the exception of radar) as a naked human.  

Grab is just too long and saying it supposed to not break at all once connected makes it look worst.

edit: I watch Risk play a lot and he dies a lot.  Really, its TK damage from trying to pry the basilisk off the human that feeds him a fair amount of credits.  The tk damage and subsequent kills from trying to fight off will fuck up the cost balance of them.

[Nux]

So you mean it wasn't intended.. ah.

As for the many changes 1.2 will make.. I can't say I'm happy about them =/ I'll have to actually play it to be sure but it's not sounding good.

I like playing basilisk and I don't think they should be upgraded. You might just make it too easy and take the fun out of it =(.

I liked the granger spit =( it was quaint, adorable and really helps when you go battle-granger >.>.

The new deconning system I have the biggest complaint with. I get the impression it's a measure to stop deconners gone too far. As I understand it, you can mark as many structures for decon as you like (otherwise it would be extremely awkward to build that one structure that requires the bp of two existing structures). So this would mean that when it comes to moving base, the humans need only mark their entire base for decon and the aliens are left to watch the human base magically disappear in front of them..

[temple]

the humans need only mark their entire base for decon and the aliens are left to watch the human base magically disappear in front of them..

Is that a problem? Shit, that's the best part.

[Raytray]

Much better than having buildings magically pop up where you build it right?

[Nux]

Nope. When they pop up in front of you, you're there when it happens. You're no where near the buildings you're suddenly making vanish. It makes moving too easy. I'm not in favour of removing depth to the game. Making sure you've cleaned up all your old buildings is a responsibility that I don't think should be lifted.

[Plague Bringer]

Nope. When they pop up in front of you, you're there when it happens. You're no where near the buildings you're suddenly making vanish. It makes moving too easy. I'm not in favour of removing depth to the game. Making sure you've cleaned up all your old buildings is a responsibility that I don't think should be lifted.

Aliens do it for you. It'd be nice if they could grow some brain and keep 32bps of unpowered turrets and a medistation from the humans, but no, they've got to eat it. And for what? A few explosions? Idiots, they're all idiots.

[Nux]

I suggest you don't play with idiots.. it helps.

If the aliens are stupid enough to give you back your bp then so be it. In that case they deserve everything they get. If they're not stupid however, why should they have the structures disappear from under their noses?

Do aliens even have noses? x(

[Seffylight]

Say what you want about the tyrant changes, the basilisk changes, or any human changes.

But I'll kill a bitch that speaks out against Marked Deconstruct.

[David]

+1

[Nux]

It's all very fun to say you disagree. As with alot of my questions it seems, no one has yet answered me. >.<

I'll repeat.

why should they have the structures disappear from under their noses?

How about- What was so bad about the old system? If this is just a measure against deconners, I'll say again that I think it's a step-too-far.

Finally can someone point me in the right direction of a detailed summary for what happens with multiple marked structures by multiple people, and what order they would be deconned in.

[David]

Why shouldn't they?

And order of building decon:
Marked buildings of the same type.
BP reserve.
Other marked buildings.

If your blueprint overlaps a marked building it gets removed first.

As to what order within the 2 groups above, I would assume the order the ents are in, so probably the order they were first built in.

[Nux]

Reasons why they shouldn't:

Having the structures just disappear with no one around looks stupid. I'm not in favour of magic in this context.

Having the structures disappear rather than deconning them yourself adds an element of LAZINESS to the game. This is an element I wouldn't call interesting.

Having the structures disappear from under the noses of the aliens means they might as well destroy them now (for the few evos the nodes and reac give and for the delay for which bp returns). This makes the game less interesting as before it was a tactic to hold those building ransom that the humans failed to decon.

I'm not in favour of making the game less interesting.

As for the questions about the system. Are the marked buildings individually or collectively based? (can one person mark while the other builds the new? or does the same person have to have marked who builds the new one?).

[David]

anyone can mark, and anyone can build.

Maybe the buildings should have some sort of decon animation?  Its power thats limited, no materials, so them blowing up would be cool.

The aliens always destroyed them before, and the alien buildings work the same way, so both sides have the same advantage / disadvantage.

How is it less interesting?

[Nux]

"anyone can mark and anyone can build"... that doesn't answer my question at all =/

I'll illustrate my point. Which of the following is that actual system?

-I mark 3 buildings for decon, some other guy builds 2 buildings and 2 of  the buildings I marked disappear.

-I mark 3 buildings for decon, some other guy marks 2 different buildings for decon. He builds 2 buildings and the buildings he marks disappear. I build 3 buildings and my 3 marked buildings disappear.

Exploding buildings? That would be annoying when I just want to move the armoury a little to the left and suddenly half the base is caught in the explosion.

The aliens always destroy them in PUBLIC games with STUPID people. In a clan war for example, they are alot less likely to be that stupid. I don't want the game to be biased toward stupid people.

It's less interesting because the 'clean-up' you would have to do while moving is part of the gameplay. Like leaving a node undefended should be punished by the aliens getting lots of spawn kills. That's not a flaw in the game, it's the humans fault for leaving the node undefended. The fact that the game punishes neglect and encourages you to think about such thinks makes the game more interesting. If you can just mark the node for decon at the start of every game and LIFT it out from across the map at any given moment makes the game shallow. It's not punishing neglect so people don't have to think as much.

I'll give you an example. Currently a good builder understands that before he decons 1 of his two nodes to move it, he should decon something else (say a turret if he already had more than 2 bp) then build the new node with those bp. Then he decons the old one. This way the humans never have less than 2 nodes and the flow of spawning humans is never impeded.

In general, a game is more interesting when there are rules and tricks that you learn about the game as you play it. This is what I mean by depth. Pong (old fashioned computer game) for example has very little depth. It's a matter of moving the paddle to hit the ball and nothing more. Tetris (also an old fashioned computer game) is an example of a game that has alot of depth. As you play it, you realise what to do and what not to do (like avoiding covering gaps with more blocks wherever possible).