The Spread Of Aimbots.

[AppleJuice]

I said I will post the demo when I have time to upload it.

It was suspicious because it's not Null's aimbot.  Therefore making the other demos of Null's aimbot useless.

Most of us were actually convinced.  Only one person wanted these 'tests' to eliminate his doubts.

Having to adjust to lagged - bullshit.  He couldn't hit a SINGLE dretch, when before unlagged was turned off, he was killing them left and right, and around corners.  That's not a fucking adjustment.  Aimbots are probably designed differently for unlagged and lagged (leading, etc.)

We were completely convinced he was wallhacking, though.

I think you would be suspicious too, if someone suddenly came into your server and didn't miss a SINGLE MD shot (not even one) against any dretch, jumped around a corner and killed a dretch immediately, etc.  His cursor, when specced, wasn't even on the dretch.  I don't think even Orc had 100% accuracy.

But tuple, you must be right, seeing as how you were there.  I'm sorry my post wasted so much of your time and annoyed you.

[Evlesoa]

Congratulations go out to Evlesoa for getting all of Earthlinks NYC Cable customers banned from everywhere.

Maybe someone should complain to them, get him kicked...

And this is my fault how? I told you, subnet doesnt mean shit, if you dont know the precise IP... ONCE again il say it...

Guess the other 6 numbers, or ban my subnet... BTW it was YOUR idea to do so, i'm not dumb enough to give out my full IP nubz

[David]

I saw AppleJuice aimbotting!
I mean, he killed me, so he *must* have been cheating.

Lets all now ridicule him because of my unsubstantiated claims!

oh, and your sig is massive.

Edit @ Ev:
I assume you use DHCP, so we have no choice but to do a subnet.
And it is your fault, and your ISP will agree once we get all there customers who play to start complaining to them about it....

[Fluxflashor]

Evlesoa it is your fault.

BTW I gotta upload that video of you being such an uber l33t haxx0r in the match with Fu.

You were also ghosting you little prick.

[invictus]

BAhahahahaha

You have a "demo" and you needed to turn off unlagged to test your suspicion?  You have a demo and still have suspicions?  You couldn't tell definitively and had to test it?

By the way, it takes some people a game or 3 to adjust to having/not having unlagged.  Talk about a stacked test.

Sounds like he was kickin your ass and there were some sour grapes.  You suspected an aimbot, but wasn't sure so you invented this seriously flawed test to find out, a test that, had you thought about it you would have realized he would more likely fail if he weren't using an aimbot.

Folks, there are plenty of demo's out there about aimbots.  Go watch them.  See how you can tell.

If you do ban someone for aimbotting and proceed to have an argument about it here, at least post a demo or STFU.  It's your server, you can kick/ban who you want, but you don't need to waste our time with petty, impossible to verify accusations, use your own server's forums.

My point exactly. No issue, I'm just not going to play, because mainly I have better things to do with my time.

[AppleJuice]

David don't be a moron.  My post had none of the idiocy in yours. Thanks.

I don't hit stuff with every single shot (100% accuracy).  My cursor is also actually ON THE ALIEN when I hit it.

Why doesn't everyone stfu until I post the demo?  I was just defending the server against the lies Invictus posted (no one spectated him, etc.).

[David]

David don't be a moron.  My post had none of the idiocy in yours. Thanks.

I try my best.

I don't hit stuff with every single shot (100% accuracy).  My cursor is also actually ON THE ALIEN when I hit it.

Its the whole 'hi cursor wasn't on the alien' thing that makes me think know your bullshitting.

The server uses the cross-hairs to work out where to shoot.  Aimbots move the cross-hairs.  So unless you're going to add 'cracking the server' to the list of accusations, get a life.

[invictus]

//offtopic

Has anyone actually noticed that AppleJuice, among others, have decided to become e-police?

I mean look at all the demos he, and the others, have posted.

Moreso, who knows the definition of witchhunt?

Anyone see a correlation, or even just a similarity here?

I do.

[Steely Ann]

Use of "get a life" on the intertubes by number 53.  That will be a 20 yard penalty.

[AppleJuice]

I won't pretend to know about your comment about crosshairs.  You're probably right.  But that doesn't invalidate my other points.  I'll stop repeating myself, though.  So far, you've only responded to one of my points, and immaturely at that.

For your information, I wasn't playing, so no, my ass wasn't handed to me. Neither were the spectators.

[AppleJuice]

//offtopic

Has anyone actually noticed that AppleJuice, among others, have decided to become e-police?

I mean look at all the demos he, and the others, have posted.

Moreso, who knows the definition of witchhunt?

Anyone see a correlation, or even just a similarity here?

I do.

I have never posted a demo before.  Another lie.

The only other aimbotting topic I have commented in involved the Fu clan, and that was widely accepted as fact.

[tuple]

Actually, there are other demos for aimbots that are not the common one, such as this demo.

Aimbots work on the same principle, they aim for you.  They do not aim in the same way that a human aims, and will lock on targets that are not visible to the player.  How the player reacts to such things is also a clue.

With unlagged, you shoot where the alien appears for you.  Without unlagged you lead your shots to account for lag.  Playing regularly on an unlagged server, then suddenly moving to one without will change how you have to lead your aim.  What was inv. lag?  Was it high?  That would have an even greater affect on his aim.

Of course, you are welcome to speculate endlessly about the capabilities of this new, unknown aimbot that we are supposed to take for granted as existing.

My point is, do whatever the hell you want on your own server.  Don't come here and make rude accusations without proof, which is what you have done so far.  As long as there is no posted demo, there is no proof and you should say nothing until there is, posted proof

I've run in to lots of people that were "convinced" that someone was aimbotting, going back almost a year.  As a matter of fact, most of us who have been playing since the standalone was released have been accused of aimbotting at one time or another.  I can only imagine what pre-standalone people get accused of.  I've even been accused of aimbotting with a goon by a particularly noobish group of people.

Incidently, there are players that will hit almost every shot with MD, or will hit every shot against a poor team.  That is so unconvincing it's funny.

[AppleJuice]

I wouldn't have posted anything at all if he hadn't posted about our server in the first place.  Anyway, I'll stop posting until I have the demo, to satisfy you.  Really, the only unnecessarily rude ones have been you two.

[kevlarman]

Note that he has 50-60 ping on my server, so adding 100-110 to his latency SHOULD make a huge difference to someone who is used to unlagged and doesn't know it has been turned off.

fixed

[Mantra]

Seriously, I saw invictus maybe, 5 times on trem.
First time I did he had a nearly 10% accuracy on an unlag server.
1 week later, he connects to a server on which I'm playing. Suddenly, I notice him getting 15 kills in 3-4 min. I spectate him, and seriously, he sucked. He couldn't dodge anything, and anything bigger then mara took him down within 5 sec, including at s2. BUT, his aim was splendid, 100% accuracy on unlag.
Surprised, I let it go, because it didn't seem to me he was aimbotting, just really good(There was no jerk whatsoever)
But, in my head, something was really weird.
Some no name, in one week, got perfect accuracy, and couldn't dodge for crap.
Now we're not talking about a vet of quake or other 3d shooters, of course these guys have nigh perfect aim, but they can also dodge and its almost "perfect", maybe 9/10.
Then the next day, he comes on again, once again, perfect aim in 15 min or so, no miss whatsoever. Burst shots with rifle, 5 shots per dretch, dead dretch. Though there is no jerking, it is definitelly weird.
Then a few hours later, he connects to a non-unlag server. Suddenly, again, his aim goes down to 1, maybe 2 kills in over 20 min. When I stated that, he simply disconected.

Then, the next day, I connect to D*S painsaw. He joins up maybe 10 mins later, at most. Perfect aim.
Then some people start saying he aimbots, as well as 2 other player on human team(Those had jerks and such unlike him) Then, suddenly, he starts spaming links to null's aimbot.
Couple secs later, he gets vote kicked along with the other 2 aimbotter.


Now, I might not be a vet, or a very good player. But I can recognise skills and hacks. Nearly everybody around here knows me and knows I don't speak out of line. But this guy, though he has no jerking categorised with null's aimbot, is very, but I mean very weird. He can't dodge for crap, and as a better aim then all the people that have been playing trem/quake for years.
That alone should probably trigger a few questions in your head.

[Owl]

If this guy is NEO INVICTUS, i'd have to agree with the aimbot. I saw him about a week ago and he was pathetic, but the past couple times i've seen him he's gotten a lot more kills, but retains some stupid habits.

Why would he be such a fast learner in the area of aiming and not learn the other parts of Tremulous?

[kevlarman]

Note that he has 50-60 ping on my server, so adding 100-110 to his latency SHOULD make a huge difference to someone who is used to unlagged and doesn't know it has been turned off.

fixed

My original quote was 'Note that he has 50-60 ping on my server', that is where it ends. I'm assuming the rest is what you meant to say. And if so, why would you double the latency? You'd divide by half, since latency IS the double trip. So, in reality, the server gets his shot in 25ms, not 50. 50 is to alert him that it got it.

Amine

because quake3 has 50msec of "built-in" lag, you are probably (read: i'm too tired to think about how the netcode works right now) right about the 25 ms thing though, so he was stuck with 75ms extra latency to what he's used to, and he has no idea that he should be leading to actually hit anything. i've gone on non-unlagged servers where i got 50 ping after playing on unlagged for long enough to get used to it, and hitting anything at all was an extreme challenge, and i knew i was aiming for the wrong place.

btw, i'm tired of having to clean up threads like this after evlesoa and his friends (enemies w/e) spam it up with their flames, if you keep it up i'm just gonna lock this thread.

[AppleJuice]

Don't come here and make rude accusations without proof, which is what you have done so far.

Take your own advice.

Incidently, there are players that will hit almost every shot with MD, or will hit every shot against a poor team.  That is so unconvincing it's funny.

First of all, I said every single shot, not almost every single shot.  Second of all, really? Where is your proof? I think that's just bullshit.

That is just one.  The others are far more rude.

[tuple]

You all keep posting, even talking about a demo.  where is it?

You may be surprised to find out that I am quite interested in seeing it.  Not because I don't think you know what you are talking about, but because it may in fact be an aimbot.  A great way to learn about aimbots is to see them in action, to see a suspected aimbot and figure out whether or not it could be an aimbot.

Take this for example.  There is the obvious aimbot sign when the bot switches targets on him to something he couldn't possibly see.  Then there are the not so obvious signs, such as the aimbot grabbing a target behind him and beyond his sight and hearing, he follows it to find a goon around a corner.  Or the dretch that attacks his base and he takes a potshot at it, though it is behind a barrier (though you could miss it if you didn't watch closely as it happens very quickly.)  Or his quick movements to enemies though his mouse sensitivity is set very low.  There is also his seemingly random looks towards the center of the map, most likely from the bot grabbing onto an alien in the center of atcs (from the hall)

The people who get caught by the flaws in the bot are easy.  It's the difficult to catch clues that are interesting to see and learn about.

Last but not least, I require no proof beyond my own experience, for I am not accusing anyone of cheating in the forum that will cause admins to ban you sight unseen for cheating.  Perhaps you will gain a better perspective when you are accused of something you know for a fact you are not doing.

[AppleJuice]

Last but not least, I require no proof beyond my own experience, for I am not accusing anyone of cheating in the forum that will cause admins to ban you sight unseen for cheating.  Perhaps you will gain a better perspective when you are accused of something you know for a fact you are not doing.

I haven't been accused of aimbotting by almost every server I visit.  Nor will I be.  Nor will most good, legitimate players.  Irrelevant.

Many, many testimonies are good enough proof. Otherwise, why should people ban the deconner, 3, on sight? Better safe than sorry.  I'll post the demo tomorrow.  Honestly, I think you are grasping at straws.

And you've experienced players who miss no shots, you say?  I've spectated Orc before; even he misses (albeit rarely).  Regardless of whether the opposing team is good or not.

Like I said, let's stop arguing about it, as many other people also account for this player being an aimbotter, and I have already said I will post the demo later (tomorrow).

[ronin2040]

just a thought regarding dealing with aimbots....
(keep in mind that i am not a programmer)

would it not be possible to have some part of the client software (or anticheat) sent out to the clients?  I understand that under normal circumstances, the custom client could just stop execution of the anti-cheat or whatever was sent out, but it seems like you could prevent that by having the server, at startup, freshly compile a new client software (1 for each OS perhaps?) containing an encryption key (specified in a text file, or the config files) required to connect to the server?  Then when players connect, this recently compiled client software with its brand new (since server startup) key is downloaded, and used throughout the gaming session.

Would this not be quite difficult to get around, in terms of hacking?  I mean, yea  the game is open source, and the method the server uses to compile the clients would be opensource, but the encrpytion key would not be known, and would be required for any communication with the server....this would thus secure the connection, and establish at least a little trust in the client software being run.....

I have no doubt that there would be some method of bypassing this, but at least it would be both more difficult for the botters to work around, and aside from a small download (a few hundred K?  a meg?) at server connection, which could be cached (lets assume a new client, per server, is released once every 3 days)....favorite servers would thus only occasionally have a download to do.  No additional action is needed for the gamers.

Whether this idea could be used simply to make sure the client was pure, or to implement some form of memory scan for known bots, i dont know...just a brainstorm.

[Repentance]

there appears to be a new aimbot on the loose.
demo of Saint Imagination aimbotting. [note: i've never heard of imagination being in the saint clan; heck, i've never even heard of imgination]

here's the link:
http://files.filefront.com//;7913766;;/


some may think that he's not botting, but timescale .5 and realizing that his chaingun never misses (with the exception of dretches, and even then, he's still amazingly accurate) a single bullet may prove otherwise.

this aimbot doesn't seem to work well on unlagged (assuming that invictus was hacking with the same aimbot as saint imagination).




answers to:
1) but he uses luci. surely he can't be an aimbotter if he uses luci.
not true for several reasons
a) he could have easily bound the bot to a key, turning it off when he buys luci
b) even when he uses luci, he twitches (albeit only in moderate degrees and slower, unlike Null's aimbot) to the targets.
c) this new aimbot seems to be able to take luci into consideration when calculating how to hit the enemy.

2) he has a guid [note: at least i think he does]
a) this new aimbot seems to allow that. i do not claim to be tech savvy, but i don't think it's impossible to code a aimbot that can be used in conjunction with a guid.

3) he attacked the om while there were enemies in sight. aimbot, specifically Null's aimbot, only allows locking on to enemies. so if you're attacking a building, and a dretch pop's it's head up, you'll immediately twitch to the dretch.
a) he could have bound the aimbot to a key.
b) this new aimbot might allow the user to attack crucial enemy structures without twitching to enemies.

4) but he moves really well and dodges competently
a) i believe that he is a skilled player as well as a aimbotter. not all people who use aimbots are total newbies to the game.


i believe that saint is hacking because
1) he rarely misses dretches. never misses larger targets. not a single bullet will miss. (see the chainsuit part during the demo)
2) he didn't deny it when i accused him of it. he told me to 'stfu n00b'. he also didn't try to evade the kick (though i'm not sure you can on D*S Painsaw).
3) it's unlikely that it's a coincidence that so many people are reported having 'new aimbot' syndromes and saint imagination, who is demo'd having these traits, is not an aimbotter.



i believe that saint imagination is hacking, but he might just be an uber-good noname'd upstart (however unlikely this may be). but if this is so, i hope to be able to apologize to saint imagination. but until concrete proof is given of saint imagination not being a hacker, i'll stick with my belief that he is.

[Repentance]

p.s. Saint Imagination looked like he was wallhacking too. see demo.

[Mantra]

The problem here is that not every server have a viable download source that actually runs fast.
In fact, on many servers, you download straight from the actualy server source, and then 1 of 3 thigns happen.
1. The server is fast enough to support the players and your download. Nothing happens.
2. The server cannot support both, and thus either:
A. Makes you download at 1-8 kp/sec
B. Makes the server lag horribly shooting all the players to 500 ping
3. Both cases of A and B happen

Also, not everyone as autodownload set to on, and it is set by default to off. As such, most people would encounter problem logging on to the servers.

At kevlarman:
Usually, when 1-2 person are caught flaming exescivelly in a single thread and admins are required to clean up, they usually ban the user instead of closing the topic. Especially if this user does it repetedly in many thread at once.
We might need a warn feature on the website me think/

At apple:
Get that ****ing demo up or stfu already. Of course he's going to question you, you keep sending flames at a person without showing proof. Now any single sane person would do that, and seriously, tuple so far as been the sanest person I've seen on these forums. He's right on most of his post, which have been posted without seeing any proof from you. Post proof and he'll probably agree with you.

[St. Anger]

That looks nothing like an aimbot..... unless the 'obviousness' you and gretchen were talking about was from during s1 and s2 that you didn't record. Based off this vid I can only say he was a good player.

[Repentance]

i've just rewatched the demo 2 more times.

st anger, at 10:25 do timescale .2    
watch him battle that dretch. the beginning isn't very obvious, but towards the middle, when the dretch jumps sideways away from him, he smoothly twitches to where the dretch is going to land. and that's at timescale .2


still not convinced? watch the entire demo in timescale .2. notice the way that he moves his aiming reticle. he moves it in small jerky movements. when he's battling a dretch in the demo, he's reticle will jerk half an inch towards the dretch, pause for about .2 seconds, jerk half an inch...and so on and so forth.

simply put, his aiming is jerky and twitchy, but in small portions, so in timescale 1, it looks like he's moving smoothly from target to target.

[+ OPTIMUS +]

the other day someone told me 'i make aimbots do u need one?'
i said no.

well, that's how to stop aimbots. so simple.

[Plague Bringer]

The people who want aimbots are going to say "yes".

[tuple]

he smoothly twitches to where the dretch is going to land. and that's at timescale .2

This is the hallmark of a good player.  For another example of this, see how as he enters the A base being pursued by a goon.  He shoots the way he thinks the goon will go.  This is one of the methods used by great players.  I am not a great player by the way, my prediction sucks

still not convinced? watch the entire demo in timescale .2. notice the way that he moves his aiming reticle.

If you slow down any video enough, any motion will seem jerky.  Network games operate on discrete amounts, none of it is analog.

You also mention that he is new.  I often play as something other than tuple.  I also at times replace my guid.  That you think he comes out of nowhere in the community is, frankly, quite meaningless.

3) it's unlikely that it's a coincidence that so many people are reported having 'new aimbot' syndromes and saint imagination, who is demo'd having these traits, is not an aimbotter.

To me, this makes it more likely that there is something else going on.  This is aside from the fact that I see no evidence of aimbotting.

And where did you see this wallhacking?  When he starts attacking under the center?  That is common sense to me.  Alien base goes down, the only real options they have at that point is to rebuild or attempt to rebuild in the center.  Everything in his game strikes me as map knowledge and experience with how his adversary uses it.  Again, hallmarks of good players.

It is unfortunate that good players who have been accused of aimbotting in the past simply because they kick ass will have to deal with this on an increasing basis.  The next time you see one of the great players, demo them and see how misguided this appears.  

I remain convinced that he is using the grey matter aimbot.

[benmachine]

I've watched the imagination demo. Consider this another vote for "just really good".
He spends the entire demo using two of the least aimbottable weapons in the game, but never mind that. Three things swung it for me:
1) his aiming is always jerky, even when just looking around - looks to me just like high sensitivity
2) Note how while fighting the dretch, the cursor is rarely, even never actually centred on target - just nearish
3) He always, always, fires where he expects the target to be next not where it is now, even based on just where it is looking. If an aimbot tried to use that kind of behaviour, it would be much more obvious and inaccurate.