The Spread Of Aimbots.

[Plague]

Accusation of a player hacking with inadequate and nonsensical reasons provided in addition to a demo of a very skilled player.

Imagination is a recent recruit of the Saint clan, achieving member status as of 28 June 2007.  "Imagination" is new the Tremulous scene - but not his other aliases, which I will choose to remain unposted until I have his permission to do so.  It really is quite a shame how skilled members of the Tremulous community are accused like this.  As Tuple said before me, many players will play under different aliases from time to time.

You ask for concrete proof that he isn't a hacker - I will ask for concrete proof that he is.

[Plague Bringer]

Shit.

Imagination is a recent recruit of the Saint clan, achieving member status as of 28 June 2007. "Imagination" is new the Tremulous scene - but not his other aliases, which I will choose to remain unposted until I have his permission to do so. It really is quite a shame how skilled members of the Tremulous community are accused like this. As Tuple said before me, many players will play under different aliases from time to time.

You ask for concrete proof that he is not a hacker - I will ask for concrete proof that he is a hacker.

+1

[AppleJuice]

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DLNMNXB8

Demo of Invictus.

[AppleJuice]

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GATRAY1A

Demo of Invictus the next game, after unlagged was turned off.  I seriously doubt it was because of lagged that he was missing so much - in fact, he wasn't even playing as if it were unlagged (hitting dretches directly).  He was shooting everywhere.  A wallhack is also VERY apparent to me.

And Mantra...forget it.

[Mispeled]

I'm not sure anyone has posted this video, but if anyone doesn't feel like downloading demos to see what an aimbot looks like, this is very informative (though it is for Halo, it applies to trem as well).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjqEklIbiRI

[Owl]

Yeah, those demos are pretty convincing. Did you tell him that unlagged had been turned off?

Still, that shot at 7:40 convinced me.

[David]

The file you are trying to access is temporarily unavailable.

[kevlarman]

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DLNMNXB8

Demo of Invictus.

this looks to me just like a player who knows how to aim his md. even if there was a chance of him aimbotting you completely invalidate your opinion by accusing him of wallhacking while he is wearing a fucking helmet

[AppleJuice]

The file you are trying to access is temporarily unavailable.

Really? I'm not sure what went wrong for you, try again.  It works for Owl and me.

Owl, yeah, I think we did, but I'm not completely sure.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DLNMNXB8

Demo of Invictus.

this looks to me just like a player who knows how to aim his md. even if there was a chance of him aimbotting you completely invalidate your opinion by accusing him of wallhacking while he is wearing a fucking helmet

Um, no, he wasn't wearing a helmet at all times.  He was also aiming through walls at the EXACT position of the alien.  But keep grasping at straws, kevlarman.

Oh, fucking. /unnecessary and annoying cursing.

[Plague Bringer]

You didn't know where the alien was since it was not from the alien's perspective.

[AppleJuice]

Actually, I did, because I was there, and you weren't.  Other people were there too; if there is another huge problem about this simple point, I'm sure they will also post.

[Plague Bringer]

You remember it that clearly? Perhaps you're mistaking your blinded hate for someone who's better then you for memories.

I, along with others against you regarding this topic, are open to believing that there is a second aimbot that's been released to the public that, for the lack of a better phrase, pwns the shit out of <aimbot>. However, a demo is not enough (something in .avi would be nice  :wink: ). f0rqu3 spoke of his "aimbot", but currently we have no proof that there is an aimbot that is more sophisticated then funlily out there.

Innocent untill proven guilty. You've got a stong case, but there's really not enough evidence in your favor. It's all arguable.

edit Tuple: lets make people at least have to work for it, thanks

[David]

Via use of timescale 0.01 I conclude that he has good reflexes and skill.
I could understand if you think he uses some sort of auto-fire, but meh.

Also, he did miss a couple of times, and he obviously knows the sizes of the bboxes etc. very well.

EDIT:

(<CsI>HairY): Am.. I would bet my childs life on it.
(<CsI>HairY): Im not kidding.
(<CsI>HairY): He's a bot, I guarnatee you
(<CsI>HairY): I would bet my firstborn on it, its a fact.

WTF?

And what was with all the wall hacking complaints?
Never once did I see anything that wasn't radar or simple common sense.

Also, in the second, thats just him shooting where he sees it.

[tuple]

I was curious at first, as he seems to be nowhere near the aliens in terms of lining up his shots.  Kevlarman pointed out that a demo shows the addition ping of the viewer as well as invictus.  With that knowledge, I viewed it while attempting to take into account lag.

Notice invictus' shots in the first demo actually do cross the path of the alien he kills, just not at the exact same time, they are just behind but on the aliens path.  Keep in mind the bbox is larger than the alien model that you see.  Notice the same on the second demo, all of his shots are behind the path of the alien, but he doesn't hit in the second demo as unlagged is off.  He does miss shots too, ruling out the non-aiming aimbot idea which I don't know is even technically possible.  It might be, it might not be, I have no idea.  seems it would change the direction he faces, which would affect his directional movement(from the servers perspective).

Additionally, look at where the alien blood appears, it's where he shot, not where the alien appears in the demo.


And wallhacking?  WTF?  Where is that?  David's right, common sense and knowledge of the map.

I am curious how someone could see if he is aiming at an alien behind a wall without knowing themselves that the alien is behind the wall.

All the really good MDers I've spec'd let the opponent get into the line of fire more often than twitch shooting, which invictus appears to be doing.  Invictus does seem to be very good.

[AppleJuice]

At certain points, his cursor follows the alien exactly behind a wall.  I know this as I was also spectating the alien.  I doubt anyone uses the radar skillfully enough to know exactly where the alien is - the radar is pretty crappy.  Also, before I started talking the demo, he jumped from a corner while looking at it and immediately mded two dretches hiding behind it.  But I can't prove that, since I don't have the demo, so obviously I'm lying out of blind hatred.

Yes Plague, I remember it clearly as it only happened yesterday, and my memory isn't equivalent to that of a fly.

Hm, common sense and map knowledge?  Show me you can do that.  Come to the Zubs server.

All of the evidence, combined with the fact that a week ago people saw him and claimed he was pretty bad, and now he has godly MD aim, points to him being an aimbotter. VERY STRONGLY.  I'll stop responding now, because the posts are just becoming ridiculous and seem to be an attempt to save yourselves from being wrong.  It's our server, and we will ban him; I only responded on these forums because he brought the issue up ON THESE FORUMS.  So don't fucking tell me to stfu and post it on our server's forums.  I am entitled to defend myself and the people of my server. Thanks. Have a nice day.

[tuple]

I assume he is innocent and look for evidence that he is not.  You seem to be doing the opposite.

Jumping around a corner and shooting dretches is also normal.  Many, many players sit in the same area.  Makes for easy pickings.  There are also places where humans don't commonly look, that's where I sit.

How can you know where his crosshairs are if you are also spectating the alien?  That makes less than no sense.  How can you see both?

[AppleJuice]

A private message I just received:

Hi,

i think this could be useful to you.

http://uploaded.de/?id=69bpy4
http://uploaded.de/?id=w3cb46

I did those two demo of (neo-ogc)Invictus, and
to me, it is obvious that he's cheating.

He's not aimboting, but he's using an AutoFire and
a wallhack.

The autofire, that he probably "ported" from the OGC hackpack
from quake3, shoot whenever the crosshair touches the bbox of
the ennemy. Giving perfect accuracy!!!

OGC-info
http://gameadmins.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=31
(deemed unfit, Survivor)

For the wallhack, you can see it clearly when you watch the demo
with "r_shownormals" set to 1.
On my second demo, at 1:44 to 1:54, it is quite obvious that he's
looking at that goon right in the eye.

And on top, i've googled (ogc invictus tremulous)
here's what i've found;
http://forum.gamedeception.net/showthread.php?p=78672

ps: here's a bind to toggle the "shownormals" while watching a demo.
     
bind DEL "toggle r_shownormals"

He wishes to remain unnamed, so I will respect that.  But THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

Now Invictus: shut the fuck up.  You have no right to be 'very angry' at the general tremulous community.  We have every right to be angry with you.

Oh, and to the person who sent this to me: check your private messages.

[Evlesoa]

yah well autofire is a bit harder to catch than aimbot... seeing how YOU have to do the aiming... ive used AutoFire, its a neat tool... I feel it takes away too much of fun tho, i rather aimbot than autofire, cuz i think firing for yourself is the shit!

Also, wallhacks which have a hitbox in them, are really 1337 to learn from, and ive seen the hitboxes, because a person who i will not mention the name of, sent me screenshots of every item in the game, in other words all models. Its a pity to say, why does the egg have such a smaller hitbox than the telenode? And why is the hitboxes not lined up with the model much?

[David]

It looks like I was wrong.
Now we have a problem, as as shown by this thread, this looks like skill.

I disqualified auto-fire as there were lots of instances where he was looking at people but not firing, and also some where he didn't fire the very second his cross-hair hit the bbox, so this is going to be problematic to detect reliably.

[Plague Bringer]

Well, as far as we know, it's not public.

Y'all really need aimbot detecting skills.

We now now what doesn't work for detecting aimbots with demos. timescale .2, etc. That's good.

[AppleJuice]

I'm not sure if it was completely safe to have posted some of the links in that quote, so if a moderator deems it not, please delete whatever is unsafe quickly. Sorry.  Although it doesn't link to anything immediately dangerous..perhaps you should move it to that server owners forum?

[Survivor]

Removed a link due to its volatile nature. The rest seem to be within the books although I'm not that happy with them

[ronin2040]

why does any of this (discussion of single aimbotters) matter?  One aimbotter does not ruin a community.  A horde of aimbotters DO.  Rather than performing a witchhunt (whether or not they be witches)

Tuple, regarding your comments on my idea (see page 8-- http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5087&start=210), wouldnt making the initial connection to a server take longer (3-5 minutes) have a positive aspect?

What i mean is, it seems almost like a spam reduction technique known as greylisting (initial mail from someone is rejected temporarially; only legit mailers will resend).  If you make it take longer to connect the first time to these servers, normal users are only slightly inconvenienced, whereas griefers and aimbotting server hoppers have to wait quite a lot longer to carry out their misdeeds.

Second, aside from the inconveniences. is there any reason that my idea is not technically sound/helpful in stopping aimbots?  A solution with problems is better than no solution or an easily worked around solution, correct?

Further, my suggestion is more aimed at future versions of tremulous, perhaps with better methods of downloading or downloading certain files even with autodownload off;  perhaps the files could be forced on the client regardless of "autodownload" setting.  The idea is that this is an integral part of the game, not some mod.  And could the software clients not be uploaded to an FTP or http site that has better throughput--tremulous.info comes to mind.

Granted this adds quite a lot of additional web traffic (assuming 1500 people play each night, and a fresh batch of downloads every 3 nights, and each player picking a different server every night, that would be, say, 500k*1500*30= 22.5 gb per month), but thats not undoable, is it?  Dreamhost, IIRC, offers easily that bandwidth for very little money....

Is there a reason this wouldnt work?

[David]

I am not a lawyer, but I think what you are saying would break the GPL.

If a new client is compiled, and sent, then the source would have to be sent to.
The evil hacker could then extract the key from the new source and recompile there hack client with the new key.

As for bandwidth, the MG has served nearing 100GB this month, most of which is from downloads.

[Patriotpie]

Sigh.

If you think someone's aimbotting, record a demo. View it at 0.2 - 0.3 timescale. If you think they're wallhacking, record them, then boot up your wallhack (because most of you bastards have one already) and view the demo.

[Plague Bringer]

If you slow down any video enough, any motion will seem jerky.  Network games operate on discrete amounts, none of it is analog.

[Owl]

So, just wondering, does anyone still believe Invictus plays legitly?

It's like the Michael Jackson acquittal.

[ronin2040]

I am not a lawyer, but I think what you are saying would break the GPL.

If a new client is compiled, and sent, then the source would have to be sent to.
The evil hacker could then extract the key from the new source and recompile there hack client with the new key.

As for bandwidth, the MG has served nearing 100GB this month, most of which is from downloads.

Alright, send the source too, then....heres the beauty of it all--the server only has to compile this software at startup.  Every server has their own compiled software....lets say compiling it takes 10 minutes.  This is negligible for the server.  The aimbotter now has to connect, dl the client (5 mins), look through the source (lets assume theres a script which automates it), and recompile (10 mins).   This means per server, the aimbotter needs 15 mins before he can play.  Normal players need only 5 mins.  Already there is an advantage for normal players.  When the aimbotter is caught, well, guess what--he needs to either A) reset his GUID and IP, or B) connect to a new server, and repeat the whole process.  If we also implemented an automatic master blacklist system, he needs to do BOTH.  This is very time consuming.

And again, the only thing that normal users experience is slight wait times on first connect to server.  The whole point here is that aimbotters are going through MORE trouble than normal users, not less--which means that it was successful.  GPL has not been broken (source was given out), and while aimbotters CAN technically aimbot for a while, being banned is no longer a quick server-hop--they need to run the client installer (that being how you reset GUID?), and reset modem, a 5-10 minute process, connect to new server, download client, run their key-extractor, and recompile.  Even if they have some way of skipping the recompile step, theyre still out about 10-15 minutes between the download and GUID/IP reset.

I'm STILL not seeing why my idea is a bad one--merely minor flaws which can be addressed.  Please, if i am wrong, tell me how.


EDIT:  it just occured to me that while the source to the client may need to be distributed, the key probably doesnt.  Which means forcing aimbotters to decompile/reverse engineer....

EDIT2:  Im probably going to start a new thread for ideas about dealing with it, there seems to be 2 conversations going on in this thread

[David]

They key will have to be sent, as it is part of the source.

Compiling doesn't take long if only a few files have changed.
And a 5 minute download for me is a half hour download for someone on dialup and a 5 second download for someone with a decent net connection.

Also, the client is 1.6mb.  the source tarball is 11.   And only sending a patch file would break the GPL.

So, when a cheat joins, they spend half and hour downloading 12.6mb, then they extract the key, takes a split second, compile, one minute tops, and are ready to cheat.

Then of course you have the issue that this would break compatibility with quake3, which the devs have already said is never going to happen.

So its never going to practically work.

[Mantra]

Sooo, another aimbotter for your amusement
Old GH member, got kicked for aimbotting, aimbotted on boom boom while I was there:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=EI0BODU0

/record hacker_mike
recording to demos/hacker_mike.dm_69.
[A] [W]Daenyth: otic
[A] [W]Daenyth: :/
}MG{K-otic: brb
Epic Fail Guy was machinegunned by Mike
A Blade of Crabgrass connected
Bringer Of Pain was swiped by Iabz's Basilisk
A Blade of Crabgrass entered the game
Machinegun Turret BUILT by PUNK!
A Blade of Crabgrass joined the humans
[PKMN]Pikachu: cool
[PKMN]Pikachu: lol
(Mantra(KillaZ+)): guys, watch mike
[PKMN]Pikachu joined the aliens
NewPlayer#0 connected
Machinegun Turret BUILT by A Blade of Crabgrass
[A] [PKMN]Pikachu: what about him
Epic Fail Guy was gunned down by Bringer Of Pain
(-GH-SolidSnake): haha i was just telling Iabz
Bringer Of Pain was swiped by Iabz's Basilisk
[PKMN]Pikachu was pulse rifled by Mike
(-GH-SolidSnake): about him
[H] Bringer Of Pain: fuckin
Machinegun Turret DECONSTRUCTED by PUNK!
NewPlayer#0 entered the game
[A] [PKMN]Pikachu: omg
Telenode DECONSTRUCTED by A Blade of Crabgrass
[A] [PKMN]Pikachu: s2
(Mantra(KillaZ+)): sometimes his aim goes jerky like
Epic Fail Guy was pulse rifled by Mike
Mike was swiped by Iabz's Basilisk
Machinegun Turret BUILT by PUNK!
(-GH-SolidSnake): dude he is an aimbotter
NewPlayer#0 joined the humans
(-GH-SolidSnake): he told us
(-GH-SolidSnake): well our clan
Repeater BUILT by A Blade of Crabgrass
(-GH-SolidSnake): which is why hes out of it
[A] [PKMN]Pikachu: !listplayers
(-GH-SolidSnake): him and his friend ice
Machinegun Turret BUILT by PUNK!
(Mantra(KillaZ+)): lol
Machinegun Turret BUILT by A Blade of Crabgrass
(-GH-SolidSnake): i was telling Iabz once i saw he connected
[PKMN]Pikachu was pulse rifled by Mike
[PKMN]Pikachu abandoned the aliens
[PKMN]Pikachu: k
[PKMN]Pikachu: ima spec
(-GH-SolidSnake): you see how his aim jerks around alot
(-GH-SolidSnake): lawlz
Repeater BUILT by PUNK!
(NeoMega::rainbow): seemed normal
(-GH-SolidSnake): nah watch
Mike was killed by TEAMMATE NewPlayer#0
NewPlayer#0 was swiped by Epic Fail Guy's Basilisk
}MG{K-otic joined the aliens
(-GH-SolidSnake): like you'd be behind him
[H] Mike: nice idiot
(Mantra(KillaZ+)): he was weird earlier
(-GH-SolidSnake): and all of a sudden
(NeoMega::rainbow): seemed normal
[A] }MG{K-otic: ya gud 1
(-GH-SolidSnake): he's like turn around
(-GH-SolidSnake): and be like right on you
(Mantra(KillaZ+)): it was worse against abz
Mike was chomped by Iabz's Dragoon
(Mantra(KillaZ+)): right there
(-GH-SolidSnake): see you saw that
(NeoMega::rainbow): that bot
(-GH-SolidSnake): he jerked around
[A] Iabz: Haha, mike
Machinegun Turret DECONSTRUCTED by A Blade of Crabgrass
(-GH-SolidSnake): and was right on iabz
(Mantra(KillaZ+)): thats not jerk, thats snaping
Mike was chomped by Iabz's Dragoon
Machinegun Turret BUILT by A Blade of Crabgrass
(-GH-SolidSnake): oh well yeah
(-GH-SolidSnake): the point is
(NeoMega::rainbow): wasnt really a jerk but a quick movement to a target he
couldnt of seen
[H] Mike: easy with 31 ping isent it? stfu pls
(-GH-SolidSnake): yeah
(Mantra(KillaZ+)): there
Machinegun Turret DECONSTRUCTED by A Blade of Crabgrass
Mike was clawed by Epic Fail Guy's Marauder
[PKMN]Pikachu: We need to vote
[H] PUNK!: bringer of pain may i kill you
[H] Mike: vote what
Mantra(KillaZ+): lol
Machinegun Turret BUILT by A Blade of Crabgrass
Mantra(KillaZ+): nah
[PKMN]Pikachu: All who think mike of botting say I
[H] Mike: i
[PKMN]Pikachu: =P
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at ************
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at *************
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at *********
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at **********
(-GH-SolidSnake): ahha
Mike was chomped by Iabz's Dragoon
Mantra(KillaZ+): LOL
Bringer Of Pain was chomped by Iabz's Dragoon
callvote: [W]Daenyth called a vote
Bringer Of Pain timed out
(-GH-SolidSnake): he told us be took that bund from someone else
[H] Mike: yup
(-GH-SolidSnake): *bind
Not allowed to vote as spectator
No team vote in progress
[H] Mike: f1 ftw
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at ******
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at *************
NeoMega::rainbow joined the humans
[PKMN]Pikachu joined the aliens
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at ***************
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at ***********
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at **************
[A] Iabz: Maybe you should work on your dodge
[H] Mike: funlily for Tremulous [beta] | Get it at *******************
Vote passed
Mike has been kicked. reason: aimbot
]/stoprecord
Stopped demo.
[A] [W]Daenyth: !listplayers
-GH-SolidSnake: lawlz
[A] [PKMN]Pikachu: hes going to come back
]who wants me to post that on trem.net?
Mantra(KillaZ+): who wants me to post that on trem.net?
-GH-SolidSnake: he's an idiot
[A] Iabz: yes
[A] [W]Daenyth: do it
-GH-SolidSnake: he told us that he's good
[A] }MG{K-otic: bbl
}MG{K-otic disconnected
]alright, brb
Mantra(KillaZ+): alright, brb
-GH-SolidSnake: but he uses aimbot for fun
]ima upload and post
Mantra(KillaZ+): ima upload and post
-GH-SolidSnake: and wall hacks
[A] [W]Daenyth: except... hes not good :/
-GH-SolidSnake: yeah
[A] [PKMN]Pikachu: upload
[A] [PKMN]Pikachu: on frag
Reactor DECONSTRUCTED by A Blade of Crabgrass
[A] [PKMN]Pikachu: let fox perma ban
NewPlayer#0 was chomped by Iabz's Dragoon
PUNK! was chomped by Iabz's Dragoon
{O88}Matt2k10 connected
Reactor BUILT by A Blade of Crabgrass
]/condump hacker
Dumped console text to hacker.

Debate!