Are you excited for 1.2?

[David]

A piss easy map editor would be a good attraction.

aa2map

[jal]

The New Build System (the one I don't like)

1. As a human builder I am able to replace our only two telenodes with an armoury. In the old system you couldn't decon multiple things at once like you are able to now. This is far worse than it used to be. Just because a deconner has to build a new thing while deconning old doesn't mean he can't disrupt the game just as much as ever (quite possibly even more so).

2. You may as well mark all buildings for decon as soon as you build them since this allows you to make insanely simple base moves when it's attacked. If ever you have a particular building you want deconned (because it's being camped by aliens) you can then just unmark the safe buildings next to you that might get replaced and build your new one. Once everything's in order, you can then mark it all for decon again.

Since this is the best strategy (where incompetent builders aren't a threat) it might as well be default for the building to be marked for decon. That said, I am opposed to this system and would prefer to be rid of the marking system all together.

3. Having structures just disappear with nobody around it is like having people shoot lasers out of their ass. It looks stupid and isn't fair on their bewildered enemies.

Can I have some comments?

It's not as bad as you put it, but I have to confess I'm not in love with the marked decon system either. Primarily cause I think it's unneeded, and too complex. I think all the troubles with the old system could be solved with minor tweaks, like making human buildables start with 25% of health, for safer, while still weak, base moving, and never allow to decon the last node nor the last armory. And the reactor could just loose its health slowy until reaching 0 and dissapearing, process that could be stopped by repairing it. That'd be enough and simple as now. But it doesn't matter. It's done already and won't change, and it's ok.

[kevlarman]

people seem to be forgetting that in 1.1 human base moves are extremely risky(sometimes even with good teamwork), while alien base moves are effectively zero risk. marked deconstruction doesn't balance it out, but it does make it much closer.

[Urcscumug]

As I stated before marking makes building a lot of easier, removes another tactical aspect of game and makes it require less teamwork - in 1.1 when you are moving a base you have to find at least 1 other player to help you, and when you find one that cooperates with you, it gives you a lot of fun. In 1.2 you can do it alone. I find doing something alone in a team-based game boring.

people seem to be forgetting that in 1.1 human base moves are extremely risky(sometimes even with good teamwork), while alien base moves are effectively zero risk. marked deconstruction doesn't balance it out, but it does make it much closer.

I find these points of view rather simplistic. It's not so cut and dry.

@Asvarox, you're not doing anything alone, you're still doing it for the team. It's just become easier to do it by yourself. I find that too many human base moves and fallbacks fail because you can't coordinate two builders well enough. And that's a communication problem. Solutions are obvious: either provide better communication (which is not guaranteed, even with VoIP), or simplify the job of building for individual players so perhaps you can manage better without 2+ builders.

@kevlarman, I wouldn't go as far as to call alien base moves "zero risk". If you don't do it right you're going to mess it up for your team just as well. And a granger is much easier to kill than a ckit suit.

The basic differences are exactly two: eggs can power structures, and the adv grangers have wallwalk and thus extra mobility. This makes it easier for a single granger to escape the humans long enough to rebuild OM and an egg. But like I said above, there are other aspects that balance this.

IMHO, marked decon is a very fine middle ground for mitigating both base moves and malicious decons.

@Asvarox: regarding camping. If you camp as a naked rifleman in S1 it's understandable. Even advisable: if you lack the skills, at least don't feed the dretches.

But if you camp in S2 with larmor+helmet+pulse or in S3 with lucisuit, then it's either because the aliens are completely pouring it on and it's all you can do to survive... or it's a psychological problem. It's this last issue that's a real problem in Trem: humans with good enough equipment who nevertheless camp.

[David]

They camp *because* they have good gear.  The campers are generally the same people who feed, it took them so long to get that gear that they don't want to lose it.

[jal]

The basic differences are exactly two: eggs can power structures, and the adv grangers have wallwalk and thus extra mobility. This makes it easier for a single granger to escape the humans long enough to rebuild OM and an egg. But like I said above, there are other aspects that balance this.

Nah, the basic difference is that if humans are detected is almost a guaranteed fail because building with aliens around is too hard even with a bunch of people defending (defenders most times make it harder, actually), and a guaranteed fail is almost a guaranteed defeat. Aliens can recover fine for a failed move. Just have some eggs elsewhere and it's no big deal for them.

That's why I say most of the troubles would be solved if human structures started with a small percentage of health, at least when using the advanced constructor kit. That way humans would be able to place a few turrets that aren't teamkilled by a rifle or a jumping dretch (while still being a piece of cake for a mara), and that'd be enough to attempt many more moves than with the current system without the need of marked decon.

[Asvarox]

@Asvarox, you're not doing anything alone, you're still doing it for the team. It's just become easier to do it by yourself. I find that too many human base moves and fallbacks fail because you can't coordinate two builders well enough. And that's a communication problem. Solutions are obvious: either provide better communication (which is not guaranteed, even with VoIP), or simplify the job of building for individual players so perhaps you can manage better without 2+ builders.

Is that about building in 1.1 or 1.2? P: and btw what did you mean in "you're not doing anything alone, you're still doing it for the team"?

And that's a communication problem. Solutions are obvious: either provide better communication (which is not guaranteed, even with VoIP)

I assume it's about 1.1 . Acutally there is no problem with communication (last time i checked, chat worked just fine), but with teammates' attitude. You need to find someone that knows what teamwork means. Some servers are filled up with lone warriors that seem to have recompiled client that doesn't display teamchat. These players are mostly newbies, noobs and (always-)pissed players that think "this guy annoyed me hard by killing me in last game and saying nothing so I have to kill him 100 times to satisfy my dick".

If you camp as a naked rifleman in S1 it's understandable. Even advisable: if you lack the skills, at least don't feed the dretches.

It's understandable only if aliens have goons since it's better if you kill them close to rets and medi where you can hide and where you can count more on your teammates. If you are really new, of course it's better for team to don't leave the base and shoot dretches from larger distances, but you can't except you will gain some experience this way. IMO it's ok if you feed (note i didn't type massfeed) because you have no skills; I've never kicked a newb for feeding even if server allows me to.

people seem to be forgetting that in 1.1 human base moves are extremely risky(sometimes even with good teamwork), while alien base moves are effectively zero risk. marked deconstruction doesn't balance it out, but it does make it much closer.

Human base move are the most exciting thing in human building aspect of Tremulous which can either make your team lose or gain big advantage and have some great fun. Human base moving is risky, but the risk is rewarded by having base in great spot that is really hard to rush (eg. garden in niveus, ele room in karith). Aliens can move their base basically everywhere they want, but their base is much more weaker than humans base. Even well built base sometimes can be killed by 1 luci who can take down all the defenses if he know where they are, or at least killing all eggs by luci jumping over the possible trapper spots. Aliens can't do that - even if they jump over rets on nodes, there's small chance he will destroy any of them before rets kill him. And sniping them (assuming they are in snipeable spot) will takie much more longer than killing eggs with luci. Smart luci will kill aliens base faster than smart rant/goon or anything (exception is 1.2 adv mara which can neutralize every human base that doesn't contain teslas). Of course it's true only if they have clear way. But I find easier to kill an egg in aliens base with luci even if there's a rant than jumping on node if there's a chainsuit.

building with aliens around is too hard even with a bunch of people defending (defenders most times make it harder, actually)

Yes if teammates are dumb enough to shoot dretches that are between rets with their pulse rifles and if builder is stupid enough to build and ignoring those bunch of aliens rushing his structures. But yes your building hp idea seems to be nice.

[Urcscumug]

This is quickly turning into a strategy debate and we're not on the appropriate section for that.

Is 1.2 going to be such a big difference? I think we all agree that yes, it will. But it doesn't matter. As long as you can see both 1.1 and 1.2 servers and you can connect to any of them confortably using the same client I guess we'll just have to wait and see how people like it. The important thing is that Trem is evolving and we get a choice.

[Undeference]

As long as you can see both 1.1 and 1.2 servers and you can connect to any of them confortably using the same client I guess we'll just have to wait and see how people like it. The important thing is that Trem is evolving and we get a choice.

That's not going to happen, but it would not be surprising to see a mod with approximately the same game play as 1.1.

[googles]

There has been talk about 1.2 for along as I've played this game...and till i see results: meaning a release, I won't believe it.

[SlackerLinux]

1.2 is vaporware
EOF

[Urcscumug]

That's not going to happen, but it would not be surprising to see a mod with approximately the same game play as 1.1.

Amanieu says the TremFusion client will work with both 1.1 and 1.2 servers.

[Knowitall66]

Trem 1.2 is coming soon, I can feel it in meh bones. (They don't lie (I hope))

[jal]

That's not going to happen, but it would not be surprising to see a mod with approximately the same game play as 1.1.

I really hope that doesn't happen. And I'm of the ones who don't like the marked decon that much, but I would be upset to see such mod.

[David]

Amanieu says the TremFusion client will work with both 1.1 and 1.2 servers.

Last I heard TF was dropping support for both...

[Nux]

[Some stuff I said]

It's not as bad as you put it, but I have to confess I'm not in love with the marked decon system either. Primarily cause I think it's unneeded, and too complex. I think all the troubles with the old system could be solved with minor tweaks, like making human buildables start with 25% of health, for safer, while still weak, base moving, and never allow to decon the last node nor the last armory. And the reactor could just loose its health slowy until reaching 0 and dissapearing, process that could be stopped by repairing it. That'd be enough and simple as now. But it doesn't matter. It's done already and won't change, and it's ok.

To put things in perspective, that was over a year ago I said that. You should understand that my beliefs can easily change over this time.

That said, I still don't like the marked decon system. I feel as though there are alternative changes that haven't been fully explored which would work better. For instance have you tried shortening build times for human buildings but keeping the ckit build timer lengthy?

[Asvarox]

I still believe that 1.1 building system just needs some tweaking, but now I see I've been missing another side of this point - mark decon can be tweaked as well.
For example (I probably suggested it already), marked buildings can disappear only when they are powered. This would bring back bps holding tactic for aliens. If a building isn't powered, builder should build a repeater/rc near them, or decon them like in 1.1 (if you click "mark building" button near unpowered building, it disappear like in 1.1). Another idea is to make building speed (and timer length) based on how many bps repeater is using. Basically more bps= faster building (I know it doesn't sound logical, but we are talking about balance ), starting from 1.5 for normal building time to 1.1 (or 1.2 ). Normal building speed can be provided only by rc.

[David]

For example (I probably suggested it already), marked buildings can disappear only when they are powered. This would bring back bps holding tactic for aliens. If a building isn't powered, builder should build a repeater/rc near them, or decon them like in 1.1 (if you click "mark building" button near unpowered building, it disappear like in 1.1).

I like this, although I still think there should be a way to decon 1.1 style.  Aside from anything else it's feeding.  Maybe a "nuke all marked buildings near me" button .

[Asvarox]

Deconners would be pleased

[David]

"nuke all marked and unpowered buildings near me" button then >_>.  And only if you have an RC elsewhere.

[Annihilation]

* Annihilation marks all buildings, runs outside, builds RC, runs back in and hits nuke all button

Here's an idea, if you have such issues with early game moves so much harder for humans than aliens, make repeater s1....  duh.

Thats the advantage aliens have, they don't have to move OM to make a new base at s1, where as humans have to move rc, rendering their old base powerless.

This new mark system hardly changes anything, it only irritates people who want to decon specific things at a time, and want them deconned then, not as your building.

[Nux]

Bah. I don't like the thought that the building system is restricted for the sake of deconners. It just feels like they've griefed the game on a whole new level.

If you are really that bothered about deconning, how's about putting in an automatic teamvote system where a set amount of people have to agree before a vital building can be deconned.

[Archangel]

hey guise i got sum noobs buildin dem Turrets on mah atcs wallz and i mlike 'omfg i cant decon dis shit y0 cauze liek i gotta build 999 other Turrets first and the drenche sare gunna com n fuk us up b/c u decon my GOOD Turrets!!' and i like pie

[jal]

Summing up a bunch of IMO interesting tweaks to 1.1 system that have been said here:

- Allow repeater since s1
- Make human buildings build faster while keeping the ckit reload time the same.
- Advanced ckit buildings start with 15 or 20% health while keeping the same build time.
- Do not allow to decon the last node nor the last armory.
- Reactor uses marked decon or unpowers slowly until extinction.

They are individually minor changes, but I think if putting all together they would solve human building problems without the need of drastically changing it.

[UniqPhoeniX]

- Make human buildings build faster while keeping the ckit reload time the same.

IMO, the build time is just right the way it is. I agree with other ideas, but what do you mean with "Reactor ... unpowers slowly until extinction"?
Oh and armory should be deconnable if that is the only way to build a node.

[David]

You already can't decon the last node.
And the last arm is just stupid, would require you to have two arms when moving it, which sucks.

[UniqPhoeniX]

But the last node can be destroyed. I don't think having 2 armos for 10 seconds while moving it is worse then not having an armory for 10 seconds.

[Nux]

I don't think having 2 armos for 10 seconds while moving it is worse then not having an armory for 10 seconds.

This is a pet hate of mine. Too often I see people (including old players) deconning the thing before they've placed the new one needlesly. They have plenty of BP and it wasn't in the way. Not sure why they decide to leave the team without it for that amount of time but whatever the reason, it's annoying and can be the difference between getting that early advantage or not.

Though this applies to the armoury move, I'd say leaving the team with 1 spawn for an amount of time is more costly as it fills the spawn queue up, leaving you to watch as the enemy raids your base.

[jal]

But the last node can be destroyed. I don't think having 2 armos for 10 seconds while moving it is worse then not having an armory for 10 seconds.

I always have 2 armorys when moving. Decon other stuff build armory and then decon armory and build other stuff (in fact I rarely build the same thing which was deconed). Who doesn't do it like that isn't doing it right, imo. Human team is very weakened without arm and there's no advantage in no having it. But well, I understand what he says and may be a drawback for some people. I think a minor one, tho.

IMO, the build time is just right the way it is. I agree with other ideas, but what do you mean with "Reactor ... unpowers slowly until extinction"?

I mean it as an alternative to marked decon. You "decon" it, but doesn't yet dissapear. It goes loosing health until dissapearing. If you repair it during this proccess, it stops loosing health, so you can cancel the decon.

[Asvarox]

- Allow repeater since s1

Who cares about s1 aliens bases? They always suck. Aliens have to move their base at s1 and completely rebuild it at s2. Humans need to build a base at s1 sometimes even without moving rc and then move it at s2... using repeaters. Giving humans them at s1 would disturb this balance (server Noobulous allowed repeater at s1, moving bases was extremely easy - one naked rifle pwns dretches while buildier builds a base in garden room on niveus. Since builder could build rets much faster, chances of succeed were really high.).

- Make human buildings build faster while keeping the ckit reload time the same.
- Advanced ckit buildings start with 15 or 20% health while keeping the same build time.

No, if you make humans building too fast and easy, I'd be nearly impossible to disturb humans' base moves for aliens at s2 vs. s2. And as far I could see building time of rets and medi (which are really important at the beginning of building) is fast enough.

Anyway back to offtopic:
When you need to move arm at spot which is partly blocked by it (like default arm on atcs) it's just a waste of time to make another one and then move first. Especially when you have to build some rets too.