Author Topic: On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...  (Read 81053 times)

Stof

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #120 on: October 31, 2006, 07:53:35 pm »
Quote from: "Punkbuster"
Why the Authors doesnt change it, they have enough time but they dont do it . I  think they use it at a part of balancing.

Duh! It's because the next version isn't out yet of course.

Or maybe you think that such a minor ( but useful ) feature should have prompted the authors to stop everything and release a new version that everybody would have to download, that the servers would have to patch, only to do something that can already be done easily with a simple clientside mod and which works perfectly even on sv_pure servers?
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pyrax

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #121 on: October 31, 2006, 07:54:56 pm »
I suppose I should mention that, perhaps contrary to my statements above, I don't consider customizing your HUD to be cheating -- as long as you aren't customizing such that you are giving yourself information that you wouldn't otherwise have with the default arrangement.

Quote from: "WolfWings ShadowFlight"
Quote from: "pyrax"
1. Modifying the game (externally) to give yourself an advantage (no matter how slim) is cheating.


By your own self-conflicting logic, modifying the autogen.cfg file is cheating... etc.

I suppose I should have clarified that statement further:  I meant any modifications made externally that cannot be made internal to the game (in our case, console commands).  Autogen.cfg can be modified fully in-game (AFAIK).

Quote from: "WolfWings ShadowFlight"
Custom HUD's cannot, for example, force-enable the human radar effect, despite what you may have heard to the contrary.

Quote from: "WolfWings ShadowFlight"
No, modifying the client-side executable to force the 'helmet radar' on all the time is the same amount of effort, and the same type of cheat, as an aimbot.

Admittedly, I was unaware of the required changes that needed to be made to make this change happen.  However, since the executable requires changing, does that mean that sv_pure=1 servers wouldn't allow radar cheaters to connect?  (Purely a question, I really don't know.)

Quote from: "WolfWings ShadowFlight"
Quote from: "pyrax"
Think of it this way:  Let's pretend...

Except the crosshair isn't slightly up and left of the center of the screen. This argument is what is known as a 'moving the goalpost' falacy.

What I was getting at here was that to someone who has, for example, never played an FPS before would find it just as difficult to accurately use the centre of the screen without a crosshair as a seasoned gamer would if the target area were not the centre.  I also think your interpretation of the "Moving goalpost" fallacy is a bit too literal.  That fallacy refers to using the argument that "my way is right because you can't provide enough evidence to prove that your way is right," e.g., religious arguments.

Quote from: "WolfWings ShadowFlight"
Modifying the HUD files to add/remove a crosshair, or any other visual decoration, is an ability the Tremulous developers specifically added to the game. They chose to make the HUD able to be modified and customized.

The point here is not that the HUD is allowed to be customized, because you're right, it is, but whether or not adding a crosshair is cheating.  I posit that it is cheating because it gives the player information that he would otherwise technically not have without the addition.  Something as practically insignificant as a dot (well, four dots since resolutions are evenly divisible in both dimensions and have no single pixel centre... but splitting hairs aside now) indicating the centre of the screen is still cheating if only because it indicates where your attack is aimed.  A dot on the upper right corner is insignificant since it has no meaning in game.

Quote from: "WolfWings ShadowFlight"
Quote from: "pyrax"
2. Binds are not cheating.  These can be added in game and are used by the UI to set preferences, ...

So setting r_picmip 7, r_gamma 5, r_mapoverbrightbits 4, r_intensity 0.5, r_vertexlighting, ...

I'm not as well versed when it comes to the specifics of the Q3 engine but it seems to me that if you want everything to be bright that's ok.  Trem was not built to have dark areas that can conceal stalking aliens and whatnot which is one of the reasons, IIRC, that flashlights have been vetoed.

Finally, the devs have stated (or people have stated on behalf of the devs) that next update we'll have alien crosshairs by default.  For now we do not.

WolfWings ShadowFlight

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #122 on: October 31, 2006, 08:10:58 pm »
Quote from: "pyrax"
Admittedly, I was unaware of the required changes that needed to be made to make this change happen.  However, since the executable requires changing, does that mean that sv_pure=1 servers wouldn't allow radar cheaters to connect?  (Purely a question, I really don't know.)


If someone is modifying the client-side executable, they will likely bypass the sv_pure check entirely as well unfortunately. So if they are to the point of hacking the executable, all bets are off on detecting with the standard sv_pure techniques. But all claims of "I'm not cheating!" are completely out the window as well, they're full-on cheating to the level of aimbots at that point.

Quote from: "pyrax"
Quote from: "WolfWings ShadowFlight"
Modifying the HUD files to add/remove a crosshair, or any other visual decoration, is an ability the Tremulous developers specifically added to the game. They chose to make the HUD able to be modified and customized.

The point here is not that the HUD is allowed to be customized, because you're right, it is, but whether or not adding a crosshair is cheating.  I posit that it is cheating because it gives the player information that he would otherwise technically not have without the addition.  Something as practically insignificant as a dot (well, four dots since resolutions are evenly divisible in both dimensions and have no single pixel centre... but splitting hairs aside now) indicating the centre of the screen is still cheating if only because it indicates where your attack is aimed.  A dot on the upper right corner is insignificant since it has no meaning in game.


And yet... what is the difference between customizing the HUD to move the health and ammo markers up to the the center of the screen instead of the edges, and placing a static crosshair in the middle of the screen? Is one cheating but the other one okay because it's only moving existing elements around?

Again, you're trying to create an synthetic difference where there is no way to seperate 'custom HUDs' from 'static artwork added on the screen for aliens' because that is, by definition, also a custom HUD.

Quote from: "pyrax"
Finally, the devs have stated (or people have stated on behalf of the devs) that next update we'll have alien crosshairs by default.  For now we do not.


All the more reason to add them now since we can. How is that any different than using TJW's "svn backport" client that includes HTTP downloads, or playing on svn servers that include bugfixes before the next full release?
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PwNz!

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #123 on: October 31, 2006, 08:19:37 pm »
Im just sitting back and watching the quote wars lol.
r either hacking or asian! ~V//Arch_Enemy

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Neo

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #124 on: October 31, 2006, 10:30:15 pm »
Yeah, pass the popcorn we're approaching the act 2 fight scene.

Punkbuster

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #125 on: October 31, 2006, 10:34:45 pm »
Quote
And yet... what is the difference between customizing the HUD to move the health and ammo markers up to the the center of the screen instead of the edges, and placing a static crosshair in the middle of the screen? Is one cheating but the other one okay because it's only moving existing elements around?

Again, you're trying to create an synthetic difference where there is no way to seperate 'custom HUDs' from 'static artwork added on the screen for aliens' because that is, by definition, also a custom HUD.


Why its no way to separate it? i know! it kicks out your argumentation but its really easy, you can change color and design  but dont ad a new ability.

btw. What the same between J.W. Bush & the Weapons Of Mass Destruction at Irac, Creationism & intelligent Design  and your answer. Anybody knows it? :)

pyrax

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #126 on: October 31, 2006, 11:52:45 pm »
Quote from: "WolfWings ShadowFlight"
Quote from: "pyrax"
Quote from: "WolfWings ShadowFlight"
Modifying the HUD files to add/remove a crosshair, or any other visual decoration, is an ability the Tremulous developers specifically added to the game. They chose to make the HUD able to be modified and customized.

The point here is not that the HUD is allowed to be customized, because you're right, it is, but whether or not adding a crosshair is cheating.  I posit that it is cheating because it gives the player information that he would otherwise technically not have without the addition.  Something as practically insignificant as a dot (well, four dots since resolutions are evenly divisible in both dimensions and have no single pixel centre... but splitting hairs aside now) indicating the centre of the screen is still cheating if only because it indicates where your attack is aimed.  A dot on the upper right corner is insignificant since it has no meaning in game.

And yet... what is the difference between customizing the HUD to move the health and ammo markers up to the the center of the screen instead of the edges, and placing a static crosshair in the middle of the screen? Is one cheating but the other one okay because it's only moving existing elements around?

True enough.  If you use a custom gui to shrink the physical size of the box surrounding the middle of the screen you will be gaining a sort of advantage.  If someone is using a 2" screen, arguably they'll have an easier time locating the centre.  I can't think of a way to argue this without it leading to absolute absurdity (assuming we haven't reached that point yet? ;))!  What's the minimum number of pixels required to be enclosed by such graphics!  

Quote from: "WolfWings ShadowFlight"
All the more reason to add them now since we can. How is that any different than using TJW's "svn backport" client that includes HTTP downloads, or playing on svn servers that include bugfixes before the next full release?

Neither of those things give one player an advantage over the other?


Custom GUIs aside, can we at least agree that all other things being equal, given two people never having played an FPS before, the one with the crosshair would best the other?

Stof

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #127 on: November 01, 2006, 12:12:06 am »
Quote from: "pyrax"
Custom GUIs aside, can we at least agree that all other things being equal, given two people never having played an FPS before, the one with the crosshair would best the other?

I'll agree that the player who downloaded a new custum GUI would best one without if you agree that the player who downloaded a custom autoexec.cfg with lot's of useful binds would best one who only uses the standard binds you can get with the menu.
urphy's rules of combat
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18 ) Make it too tough for the enemy to get in and you can't get out.

DKG

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #128 on: November 01, 2006, 12:50:49 am »
Quote from: "Stof"
I'll agree that the player who downloaded a new custum GUI would best one without if you agree that the player who downloaded a custom autoexec.cfg with lot's of useful binds would best one who only uses the standard binds you can get with the menu.

Custom HUDs (crosshairs) help new players ONLY.  Binds/Scripts (.cfg's) help EVERYONE.

I sped around the winding coridor (With extreme fluidity thanks to my newly installed hardware crosshair) reluctant to blink as not to miss a stray human on my radar.  I swiftly react to the oncoming blue sphere, and wallwalk in a completely unpredictable fasion.  I find my foe, and realise his Las-gun wielding competence, I retreat, the previous courner should be sufficient.  I chuckle to myself as this lone human follows what he believes to be a badly wounded dretch, little does he know, I'm FAR from deaths grasp, to the contrary, it's all a sly gambit on my part. Out of harms way, I proceed to navigate the "q" (evolve) menu, "here he comes, chasing a weak dretch, He'll be mighty surprised to find a Full-Health Dragoon waiting for him..." before I have time to do ANYTHING on the ingame evolve menu, I'm as dead as a... Noob with no binds.
Well, It's only fair, my ability to find the center of my screen (Create a server, join as human, stick tape between the crosshair) is far more advantagous, cheating some might say, than having my full-health dretch evolve to Dragoon with a single button...????

Undeference

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #129 on: November 01, 2006, 02:11:33 am »
Quote
However, since the executable requires changing, does that mean that sv_pure=1 servers wouldn't allow radar cheaters to connect?
The incorrect answer was implied in the response to this. Pure servers don't care what binary you use, just what pk3s you use. (Keep in mind that data in a pk3 can be overridden pretty easily with different information not in a pk3.)

Quote
I posit that it is cheating because it gives the player information that he would otherwise technically not have without the addition.
The center of your screen is a physical location, not a piece of information within the game. Furthermore, it is already present in the game for some classes.

Quote
it kicks out your argumentation but its really easy, you can change color and design but dont ad a new ability.
Adding a new ability isn't even possible with a custom HUD unless you consider being more comfortable with the location of your ammo indicator to be a new ability.
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Punkbuster

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #130 on: November 01, 2006, 03:35:08 am »
Quote
Adding a new ability isn't even possible with a custom HUD unless you consider being more comfortable with the location of your ammo indicator to be a new ability.


Ok, now for childrens :roll:

My new  Car comes whit Radar,  IR and a HUD but this one has not the ability to track enemys,  if i fly a F16 the HUD, Radar and IR works at the same physik but this one has the ability to track an enemy, so i hope kid you can understand me now :)

PwNz!

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #131 on: November 01, 2006, 05:36:43 am »
Quote from: "Neo"
Yeah, pass the popcorn we're approaching the act 2 fight scene.


*Passes popcorn*
r either hacking or asian! ~V//Arch_Enemy

Why do we kill people who are killing people to show that killing people is wrong?  ~Holly Near

To kill a man is not to defend a doctrine, but to kill a man.  ~Michael Servetus

Lava Croft

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #132 on: November 01, 2006, 03:50:36 pm »


Props to Mietz.

pyrax

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #133 on: November 01, 2006, 04:17:43 pm »
Quote from: "Stof"
Quote from: "pyrax"
Custom GUIs aside, can we at least agree that all other things being equal, given two people never having played an FPS before, the one with the crosshair would best the other?

I'll agree that the player who downloaded a new custum GUI would best one without if you agree that the player who downloaded a custom autoexec.cfg with lot's of useful binds would best one who only uses the standard binds you can get with the menu.

I've already agreed to this.  Let me ask you this: can the person without the added crosshair add one without leaving the game?  Can the person without the binds add them without leaving the game?

Which one is a cheat, then?

PIE

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #134 on: November 01, 2006, 05:44:15 pm »
Quote from: "Lava Croft"

Props to Mietz.

So is that a challenge to the whole seriousness of the point of this thread? Are you insinuating that a little dot in the middle of a screen does not make people l33t?
That players who can find the middle of their screen because they play are in some way no better than those who just start out and have never played any game with anything in the center of their screen where they can use as a point of reference and adjustment for tremulous?
That the dot does not mean you can actually manage to aim the center of your screen any better at the thing you want to bite?
ARE YOU SAYING, SIR.. THAT THE MOOSE HAS NO HORNS!.. antlers whatever a moose has...

PwNz!

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #135 on: November 01, 2006, 08:44:52 pm »
Popcord for all  :D  :D

[randomness]
Skill =  :dretch: ->  :turret:

 :dretch: = teh winnar

[/randomness]
r either hacking or asian! ~V//Arch_Enemy

Why do we kill people who are killing people to show that killing people is wrong?  ~Holly Near

To kill a man is not to defend a doctrine, but to kill a man.  ~Michael Servetus

rasz_pl

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #136 on: November 01, 2006, 11:58:55 pm »
Quote from: "pyrax"

Let me ask you this: can the person without the added crosshair add one without leaving the game?


yes

Quote from: "pyrax"
Can the person without the binds add them without leaving the game?


yes

Quote from: "pyrax"
Which one is a cheat, then?


neither one

chompers

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #137 on: January 10, 2007, 04:31:16 pm »
Ho boy, this thread is hilarious! I was wondering why Lava was trolling me the other day in the mapping forum, and now I know.

I never came back to this thread after posting the HUD file, but after reading it, I have to laugh that it seems to have put such a tremendous bug up a few people's asses.  :D Seriously, IT'S A DOT, get over it chaps.

Anyway, it's good to see my HUD is still getting some use. Other than mine and Wolfwing's, are there any other cool HUDs floating around now?

PHREAK

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #138 on: January 10, 2007, 04:51:08 pm »
Some people really got a huge stick up their ass because of the HUD's.

There is a thread with most of the released custom HUD's, including mine  :wink:

http://tremulous.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3087
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vcxzet

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #139 on: January 10, 2007, 04:52:55 pm »
here we go again
cheater crosshair users VS normal cool players

Dj_Pong

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #140 on: January 10, 2007, 05:47:29 pm »
Ho NOES! Hax aimb0tz, non implemented rad0r! ESP! Crouch bot! NADE rad0r cr0zzH41r! Noes noes noes!!!

For all the SatGnu Admins:

http://www.pwned.nl/

;)
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Puma

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« Reply #141 on: January 10, 2007, 06:58:47 pm »
yo ping_pong.
Just try to look like who jokes.
Game Over.  Go burn in hell.
ou have no life?
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Shadow-Majestic

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #142 on: January 10, 2007, 09:21:04 pm »
lol, advanced goons have crosshairs ;p and few others too no? x/

why do u need a crosshair? CANT U JUST SEE WHAT THE MIDDLE OF UR SCREEN IS?

k no crosshair for humans would be lame and annoying, but aliens dont rlly need it x/

@DJ_Pong: pwned.nl doesnt work and the meta tags are wrong lol
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Eeeew Spiders

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #143 on: January 10, 2007, 10:07:31 pm »
<troll>
lucy spammers don't need crosshair either
</troll>

flocke

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #144 on: January 11, 2007, 11:44:29 am »
i wanna be a crosshair!

SLAVE|Mietz

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #145 on: January 11, 2007, 11:51:41 am »
there is only one truth about modified huds and croshairs:


Eeeew Spiders

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #146 on: January 11, 2007, 12:37:37 pm »
I think i have seen this comic post before..if i just knew where.....

btw, nice comics, good humor.

But really, crosshair, no crosshair, it's kinda ridiculous that this is an issue. From what i gather from the posts, thinking that alien crosshair is a cheat or not is just an opinion of the posters, nobody else seems to care. No facts.

In most other games, modifying code or inducing artifical lag is a cheat, playing with client configuration a must.

If you have a server and you want to dissalow players with a certain configuration, so be it. But thats just server local policy, and should stay server local policy.

Dj_Pong

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #147 on: January 11, 2007, 01:18:32 pm »
Quote from: "Puma"
yo ping_pong.
Just try to look like who jokes.
Game Over.  Go burn in hell.

Your posts are really high level for your age ;)

Oh and eeuh, nice Screenshot in your Sig  
:P It's called; Owned by Moderator.
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Puma

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #148 on: January 11, 2007, 02:06:33 pm »
Quote
Oh and eeuh, nice Screenshot in your Sig
It's called; Owned by Moderator.

Ye i got owned by the MODERATOR
ou have no life?
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Here you can find some help.

Solo

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On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...
« Reply #149 on: January 11, 2007, 02:08:44 pm »
I guess you guys will have to ban everyone who uses advanced goon/mara then huh? idiots as usual.
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