On Alien crosshairs and other 'hacks'...

[Neo]

Read the above post for the signs to look for in a whiner.

[DKG]

Wow, "crosshairs" (1/2cm square piece of black electrical tape stuck on screen using human crosshair as a reference) improved my dretch-play remarkably.  Whether that says something about my overall skill in general, I feel, is besides the point.  It WAS an advantage.  Being a fair person I must admit, I did try it on SATGNU* I hope that doesn't merrit a ban.  After reading these mixed views on the subject, being at first, indifferent myself, I HAD to give it a go.
Before trying this out, I assumed the people who mentioned marker pen/tape etc... to be saying it completely sarcasticly.  Now I'm unsure.
It worked for me, and I think I may continue to use this "hack"(?) if it's deemed legal.
REALY, NO sarcasm here, Honestly

no, REALY

*In fairness, although I DID use this external mod on SATGNU(ok here's some sarcasm at last->) and I realise the tape wasn't in the original Tremulous package (end of sarcasm) It is essential that I point out I played very briefly, and my choice of server was purely ping related.  I would like a SATGNU admins view on this.

[edit->]
I forgot to add perhaps my most astonishing descovery,  It was not so much the kills/headshots (although it did help) But I found that genral navigation was made much easier (NO bumping into walls when going around a corner)

[kevlarman]

and I think I may continue to use this "hack"(?) if it's deemed legal.

while the hardware hack works fairly well (note: i'm using hack in the original sense of the word, not the OMG HE'S CHEATING sense), chomper's hud does much less damage to expensive lcds, and is a bit prettier.

[Lava Croft]

You all fell for it. Sweet.

[pyrax]

I don't know why I'm throwing myself amidst this argument but...

I'm on Lava's side here (although maybe not as extreme).  Let me explain my stance!

P.S. Reader's Digest version: I don't really care about alien crosshairs per se but in principle it's still a cheat.

1. Modifying the game (externally) to give yourself an advantage (no matter how slim) is cheating.  For example, if you were playing poker and you brought in an ace of spades from under the table into your hand that is cheating.  YES there is an ace of spades in the deck, but you were not given it within the context of the game.  Just because it exists within the confines of the game does not give you the right to use it whenever you choose.  This applies to changing the GUI, sticking a piece of tape on your screen, whatever.

Think of it this way:  Let's pretend that instead of the middle of the screen the actual spot that counted for a hit was half an inch up and 3/4 inches to the left of center.  That is sufficiently different that it would take some getting used to (especially for seasoned gamers).  Adding a crosshair in this instance would DEFINITELY give you an advantage.  Now, for the n00b gamer, having the spot in the exact middle is difficult enough (although it's not too bad if you can visualize the centre of a rectangle).  So, as everyone says, a crosshair gives an advantage.  Since it is not yet included in the official release then it is a cheat.

Of course, if I owned a server, I would not ban for using crosshairs (if there were any way of knowing) since it only really helps the n00bs and (let's face it) they need all the help they can get.

1b.  Everyone says that in Q3 you were allowed to do this and that, blah, blah, blah.  This is NOT Q3.  As a side note (slightly off topic), some people are using GUI mods to add in permanent radars for humans.  If I owned a server (and there were an easy way to prove it) I would instantly perma-ban anyone doing this.  One could argue that this is the same as adding an alien crosshair: only client-side files are being manipulated so no problem, right?  Wrong.  For the same reasons as in point 1., this is cheating.

2. Binds are not cheating.  These can be added in game and are used by the UI to set preferences, such as WASD for movement.  Most people modify binds externally however this is merely a one-shot time saver as opposed to a cheat because you can enter the exact same information through the console in-game.  However this just adds unnecessary tedium to the process.  All you kiddies out there who abstain from using binds because you think they're cheats can relax.

3. I think everyone knows that aimbots are cheats.  Just to be clear, though, aimbots are cheats.

I think that about covers this topic.  I don't imagine this argument will persuade any of you to change your ways but so be it.  Just don't be pricks about it when you're on someone's server and they ask you to stop using whatever excess thing you're using.

[Quaoar]

Technically speaking, binds give someone a definite edge because they have a disproportionally easier and faster time getting upgrades and evolutions while others need to stop and navigate the menu. Same can be said of people using a teamchat program to avoid typing; they don't need to stop cold to give advice/orders.

Of course, the defining difference is that binds are known to be universally acceptable; hence it is considered customizing your gameplay as opposed to cheating. Now, if EVERYONE were given the option of a human pera-radar, that would be ok to, BUT helmet giving radar is a tactical part of the gameplay in general, and it is universally considered cheating if you can give yourself an advantage externally that is otherwise obtained in-game through any sort of tampering. There's the difference.

[DKG]

Of course, if I owned a server, I would not ban for using crosshairs (if there were any way of knowing) since it only really helps the n00bs and (let's face it) they need all the help they can get.

amen. For me, the question is fully answered. I'll continue using my hardware mod untill my skill reaches a level on par with the other players on the servers I play.  Happy gaming.

[Undeference]

pyrax, alien crosshairs are not external modifications. The crosshairs are not hard coded into the game (unlike some things that probably should not be). So using your analogy of a card game, it is like playing double solitaire where the decks are different colors.

1b. This is not Quake 3 where, AFAIK, Id hasn't explicitly stated whether custom HUDs are allowed or not (although, I'm pretty sure they are from reading the EULA). This is Tremulous where Timbo has said that there is no problem.

2. Not despite, but because of the fact that doing almost anything in Tremulous relies on binds, using custom binds is "modifying the game to give yourself an advantage" and should be considered cheating by you.


If by "external modifications", you mean things that cannot be fully duplicated from the console (does this include third part programs such as many aim bots or a voice chat program?), using tjw's backports or updated servers is cheating. In fact, this is as close to crosshairs as you can get. But no one complains about that because the intent is not to cheat.

How do you define cheating? I tried to define it here and asked for other peoples' definitions, but that pretty much turned into a copy of this thread and died.

[pyrax]

pyrax, alien crosshairs are not external modifications. The crosshairs are not hard coded into the game (unlike some things that probably should not be). So using your analogy of a card game, it is like playing double solitaire where the decks are different colors.

To my knowledge you have to alter a file from outside the game in order to enable alien crosshairs.  This makes it an external modification.  Can you enable a dretch crosshair strictly from within the game?

1b. This is not Quake 3 where, AFAIK, Id hasn't explicitly stated whether custom HUDs are allowed or not (although, I'm pretty sure they are from reading the EULA). This is Tremulous where Timbo has said that there is no problem.

Fair enough.  I stand by my statements that adding crosshairs where they aren't (YET, I know they're scheduled for the next release) and ESPECIALLY a permanent human radar are cheating.  Changing the layout of your HUD is just fine though.

2. Not despite, but because of the fact that doing almost anything in Tremulous relies on binds, using custom binds is "modifying the game to give yourself an advantage" and should be considered cheating by you.

Well I'm not quite sure how you arrived at this conclusion.  You mean to tell me that if I rebind my movement keys to TFGH instead of WASD that I'm somehow cheating?  (In the extreme case: what if I have really short arms and can't reach the left side of my keyboard while simultaneously operating the mouse with my right hand?)

If by "external modifications", you mean things that cannot be fully duplicated from the console (does this include third part programs such as many aim bots or a voice chat program?), using tjw's backports or updated servers is cheating. In fact, this is as close to crosshairs as you can get. But no one complains about that because the intent is not to cheat.

Strictly speaking, I suppose.  Although I thought TJW's mod was more or less "official" since, as a Mac player, I wouldn't be able to game otherwise.  Servers themselves can't be "cheating" since they aren't client side. If a server changes something then everyone on the server is going to be playing by the same rules anyway.

If my (theoretical) server were instead hosting CS, then you'd be cheating to play Tremulous 1.1.0...

As for aimbots, well, I discussed those in point 3.  Voice chat programs don't modify the game.  Sure you can communicate with people easier but so can someone who's friend is playing on their LAN on the computer right beside them.

[LooR]

On every bigger League/Tournament World Wide u must play Pure, except from specifically listest modifications.

http://www.clanbase.com/cheating.php?lid=2804

Cheating

In-game cheating during a ClanBase match:

   * Traces of cheats (e.g. variable settings) without actual cheating: 1-season cup ban + 3-month ladder ban for the player, forfeit loss for the clan.
   * Cheating (aimbot, wallhack, spiked models, ...): permanent ban for the player, removal of the clan from the cup or ladder the match was for. Since the player will be assumed to have cheated in all matches he has played, all results of matches he participated in will be changed to forfeit losses for his clans. If there are three or more such matches in the same ladder with the same clan, that clan is removed from the ladder. Two forfeit losses in the same cup always lead to removal from the cup.

In-game cheating outside ClanBase:

   * On a Public / Clan server or during a match in another league/cup outside ClanBase: punishments are the same as for cheating during a CB match, however ClanBase will only act if the evidence of the cheating is brought to us in full and the identity of the cheater can be determined with certainty. If the evidence is unclear or incomplete, the report will be discarded. Clans will not be held responsible for the actions of their players on public servers unless the cheating player is the clan leader, or the player remains in the clan after it is brought to our attention, in which case the clan(s) will be deleted. Read the FAQ for the procedure to report external cheats.

Using a banned player (also applies to ClanBase Hosted Cups) :

   * Unknowingly: forfeit losses in all the matches the player played in.
   * Knowingly: removal of the clan, 1-season cup & 3 months ladder ban for the players who played with him/her in a match.

Producing and/or distributing:

   * Game exploits: 1-season cup ban + 3-month ladder ban.
   * Cheats (wallhack, aimbot, etc): permanent ban.

7. Cheating and abuse

  1. The cheating and abuse policy applies to all ClanBase ladders. Any cheating or abusive behavior during a match will result in a forfeit loss.
  2. It is strictly forbidden to use accounts of other users. Such cases will always be considered qid abuse. This does not apply to players who are forced to shared GUID's.
  3. It is not allowed to take advantage of or abuse bugs. Any kind of bug abuse is considered cheating and will lead to a forfeit loss.
  4. All programs or files, be they changed game files or new files, that change the game or add to its functionality, or that interact with the game in any way, are strictly forbidden. Modified versions of the game's resource files are always forbidden, regardless of what they do. The use of any forbidden program or file by any clan member during a match leads to a forfeit loss at least, and to a removal and ban from ClanBase in bad cases.
  5. Programs that do not interact with the game in any way are allowed, even if they can be used and operated simultaneously with the game. Voice communication programs are examples of such programs.

http://www.esl.eu/eu/q3/1on1/ladder/rules/#rule_10

2.2.  Game Modifications and Changes
In general, all programs which are not part of the original game, including custom-data and modifications, are not allowed in any ESL game. Exceptions will be outlined in each ladder's own specific rules or below in "2.2.1. Legal programs and configuration modifications".
2.2.1.  Legal programs and configuration modifications
All external voice programs are allowed (e.g. Battlecom, Gamevoice, Teamspeak, Ventrilo etc.). Script changes and changes to the game's configuration are allowed, unless they are partly or completely forbidden by the game-specific rules.
2.2.2.  Illegal programs and configuration modifications
Programs that provide an advantage during game play (e.g. drivers that allow the removing of walls such as ASUS or Wallhack) are forbidden. Any programs that change the game itself are forbidden.
2.2.3.  New programs and/or modifications
New programs and/or modifications are forbidden, as long as they are not specifically listed as legal.
2.2.4.  Compulsory programs
Additional programs have been developed for some games. These mostly serve the purpose of ensuring fair play. These additional compulsory programs are listed in the game-specific rules.

http://www.thecpl.com/winter2005/main.php?p=rules_quake4#matchrules

9.00 Cheating and Rule Violations

9.00a By registering and participating in the $30,000 Quake 4 Tournament, each participant agrees to be bound by the rules of this document. Breaking any rule listed herein is grounds for tournament disqualification at the discretion of the League Commissioner and the League President.

9.00b Any tampering with computer hardware or software, including but not limited to intentional crashing of software and illegal modification of hardware or software configurations will result in immediate disqualification.

9.00c Any article of clothing in violation of the dress code must be replaced. Failure to replace violating articles of clothing will result in immediate disqualification.

9.00d Any action in violation of the Player and Spectator Conduct rules as witnessed by a Tournament Official, will result in a warning. Once a warning has been issued, the next violation will result in disqualification of the entire team.

9.00e The Tournament Director reserves the right to cancel or modify the tournament rules if fraud, technical failures or any other factor beyond reasonable control, impairs the integrity of the tournament.

9.00f Any protests or disagreements with a tournament ruling must be made directly to the Tournament Director or League Commissioner in a respectful manner at the time of the incident, at which time a final decision will be made. Disputes must be filed before leaving the tournament area or before starting the next half. The Commissioner's decisions are final.

9.00g Multiple disqualifications may result in an extended suspension from CPL tournaments and CPL Events, as decided by the League Commissioner and the League President.

9.00h Any form of cheating, including but not limited to intentional disconnects, ping flooding, server crashing, etc., will result in immediate disqualification of the competitor and/or team.

9.00i A Tournament Official has the right to disqualify and dismiss any registered player from the tournament, at his or her discretion, at any stage of the tournament, for any valid reason, without prior warning to the player.

[Caveman]

Nice quoting l00r...
But I strongly doubt that this has anything to do with the general issue here. AFAIK, Tremulous has nothing to do with clan-base, except maybe for the underlying engine.

Those quotes may help the trem-league to argue their ban of Puma, but besides that it has no meaning here with trem.

[Undeference]

Custom HUDs are as much external as the default ones are, therefore I think it's safe to say they aren't really external as a third party program would be. You can switch between different HUD configurations from within the game.

I'm not saying that using custom binds is cheating. I'm saying that your definition of cheating includes custom binds.

All programs or files, be they changed game files or new files, that change the game or add to its functionality, or that interact with the game in any way, are strictly forbidden.

That either qualifies changed game settings (because they will be saved in autogen.cfg, thus qualifying it as a modified file) as cheating, or custom HUDs as not cheating (you don't have to modify any game "resources").

Script changes and changes to the game's configuration are allowed, unless they are partly or completely forbidden by the game-specific rules.

That specifically allows custom HUDs.

The quote from the CPL doesn't define cheating.

[Moofed]

I can't believe people are still going on about this.  It will only be settled when the next version of Trem comes out which either disables custom HUDs entirely, or adds a crosshair to the alien HUD by default.

I am in favor of alien crosshairs because of the way alien melee works.  If dretch bites were calculated using extents (ut2k4 terminology, in that link replace the green line with a box), maybe not so much.  But Trem uses a simple line trace, making crosshairs much more important.

And only one thing can stop a "hardware crosshair", a tourney official peeking over your shoulder.  Or (very) dynamic crosshairs, but I don't think we want to go there.  D:

[Neo]

Yeah, but those same rules would ban TJW servers and backport clients(modifying/adding functionality) as well as any third party communications program(program that provides an advantage during gameplay).

No offence but Clanbase rules are mostly just there to look impressive, most of them you can't actually see being used unless you're at a lanparty.

[TonkaTruck]

Omfg..I love it how Trem forums love to take a topic and stick with it.

Heres my thoughts. How about we actually get a couple TremDevs to come and speak their own minds and thats that. Seriously, in my opinion all it would do is give a person a sense of direction..also..this is a FPS...

[Caveman]

hehe, here at least we can be sure that Evilbalance with it's freaking Punkbuster will not dictate us what is considered a cheat

[techhead]

What if someone modified their hud to paste a huge stylistic X (or other place-holding graphic) across their entire screen.
You could say its just stylizing the existing Hud, or you could say that its a crosshair used to cheat.
If you say its stylistic, then they could use it as a crosshair and not get in trouble.
If you say its a crosshair, then who draws the line between stylistic and crosshair and why not ban custom HUD's in general.
If you say the center of the screen has to be clear, then put a > < instead.
No way to cover all the angles on it if you call the crosshair a cheat.

[WolfWings ShadowFlight]

I don't know why I'm throwing myself amidst this argument but...

Because you want to test otu the asbestos firesuit you just bought on EBay?

1. Modifying the game (externally) to give yourself an advantage (no matter how slim) is cheating.

By your own self-conflicting logic, modifying the autogen.cfg file is cheating. That is, by the very definition, a modification done to the game files externally. If you actually mean modifying the executable or .pk3's is cheating, again, custom HUD's do not modify either of those. They re-arrange existing graphics, nothing more. Custom HUD's cannot, for example, force-enable the human radar effect, despite what you may have heard to the contrary.

Think of it this way:  Let's pretend...

Except the crosshair isn't slightly up and left of the center of the screen. This argument is what is known as a 'moving the goalpost' falacy.

1b.  Everyone says that in Q3 you were allowed to do this and that, blah, blah, blah.  This is NOT Q3.  As a side note (slightly off topic), some people are using GUI mods to add in permanent radars for humans.

No, modifying the client-side executable to force the 'helmet radar' on all the time is the same amount of effort, and the same type of cheat, as an aimbot. Modifying the HUD files to add/remove a crosshair, or any other visual decoration, is an ability the Tremulous developers specifically added to the game. They chose to make the HUD able to be modified and customized. They had to make extensive modifications to the stock Q3 codebase to do this, so it took extensive effort on the Tremulous developers part to allow us to customize the HUD.

2. Binds are not cheating.  These can be added in game and are used by the UI to set preferences, such as WASD for movement.  Most people modify binds externally however this is merely a one-shot time saver as opposed to a cheat because you can enter the exact same information through the console in-game.

So setting r_picmip 7, r_gamma 5, r_mapoverbrightbits 4, r_intensity 0.5, r_vertexlighting, and turning Tremulous into Stun Runner visually so everything stands out like a sore thumb, that's okay with you because it can all be done from the console? You can add map .pk3's, and other files to the Tremulous directory such as "human" and "alien" binds I can execute easier, but somehow typing in "ui_hudFiles ui/custom.cfg" is cheating when anything else I can type into the console is fine? You can't have it both ways.

3. I think everyone knows that aimbots are cheats.  Just to be clear, though, aimbots are cheats.

And so are all client-side hacks as well. Modifying files specifically coded to allow the user to modify though, how is that cheating? Really, the Tremulous developers had to do extensive work to allow custom HUDs. They chose to allow them when they re-used the HUD system from Team Arena and updated it to support the Tremulous-specific attributes and items.

[WolfWings ShadowFlight]

On every bigger League/Tournament World Wide u must play Pure, except from specifically listest modifications.

Thanks for giving a great example that shows handilly that (by default) custom HUDs in Tremulous would be legal under Clanbase rules. The following highlighting is my own.

7. Cheating and abuse

  4. All programs or files, be they changed game files or new files, that change the game or add to its functionality, or that interact with the game in any way, are strictly forbidden. Modified versions of the game's resource files are always forbidden, regardless of what they do. The use of any forbidden program or file by any clan member during a match leads to a forfeit loss at least, and to a removal and ban from ClanBase in bad cases.

Seems to ban HUD modifications, doesn't it? Let's skip forward to the 'what is okay by default' section though... 2.2.1 specifically:

http://www.esl.eu/eu/q3/1on1/ladder/rules/#rule_10

2.2.1.  Legal programs and configuration modifications
All external voice programs are allowed (e.g. Battlecom, Gamevoice, Teamspeak, Ventrilo etc.). Script changes and changes to the game's configuration are allowed, unless they are partly or completely forbidden by the game-specific rules.

Please read the highlighted sentence carefully. All script changes and changes to the game's configuration are allowed, unless specifically forbidden in the game-specific rules.

The closest thing to Tremulous is Team Arena, or Weapons Factory, or Quake 3 Fortress. All of the above have massive custom HUD communities. They are some of the few Q3A mods to base their HUD code on the Team Arena HUD code, specifically because it allows for customized HUDs on sv_pure servers. Tremulous chose to allow it as well by design and not by accident.

[Lava Croft]

Some of you seem to miss the general principle here. It is not important what Clanbase, the Team Fortress community, Timbo, WolfWings or whoever says. I have been playing Quake for quite a while, and ever since the QuakeWorld (clan)wars from 1997, modification of skins and hud was disallowed. I have always stuck to these rules. For me, and I know for some other people, it's not the fact that you use that tiny crosshair what's wrong, it's the fact that some of you feel the need to edit/add art assets to Tremulous, to give you an unfair advantage over others, no matter how small, nobody is going to use a crosshair because it's not helping one bit. If you give these 'cheaters' one finger, they will soon demand your entire hand.

[Neo]

No, because they use the crosshair in this case as a learning tool , no serious player uses it because by then it gives no advantage.

Besides the point also applies for Quake, which by its default configuration didn't have a crosshair.

[rasz_pl]

No, because they use the crosshair in this case as a learning tool , no serious player uses it

well I do

[Caveman]

I think we can lock this thread, as we have finally concluded that crosshairs in Trem are not to be considered a cheat

A sticky would be nice, so we don't get any more whiners that complain on the percived illegal advantage of a crosshair...

[Neo]

Seconded for closing and that rasz isn't a serious player

[Punkbuster]

I think we can lock this thread, as we have finally concluded that crosshairs in Trem are not to be considered a cheat

A sticky would be nice, so we don't get any more whiners that complain on the percived illegal advantage of a crosshair...

FALSE, WE considered that edding a HUD whit Xhair (for Example: Color or Design) it not a cheat its only a variation. But ad a Xhair to a HUD that have normal no one its an advantage, its an advantage, its an...

Easy question for you, why adv. mara have it and normal mara not?

[PIE]

I think we can lock this thread

* I wrote this big beautiful reply phpbb failed to post so here is my i'm tired of writing it version:

NO
Locks are for stopping trainwreck attrocity threads, not for ending discussion on reasonable topics that some individual feels has been concluded. If you are no longer interested or think its done, move on. It will die on its own, and doesn't need any help from a lock. If however others are not so done as you, they can simple continue to mock you by posting here and keeping the thread afloat.

BTW.. i fully agree with my post here. Everything I said in my previous post some pages back concluded the thread, you people are simply blind to my wisdom :p

[Stof]

Easy question for you, why adv. mara have it and normal mara not?

That's because the trem authors though a crosshair wasn't needed for aliens with no ranged attack. But then again, it really helps to have them after all so I see no good reason not to add one to all aliens.

[Punkbuster]

Easy question for you, why adv. mara have it and normal mara not?

That's because the trem authors though a crosshair wasn't needed for aliens with no ranged attack. But then again, it really helps to have them after all so I see no good reason not to add one to all aliens.

Why the Authors doesnt change it, they have enough time but they dont do it . I  think they use it at a part of balancing.

[WolfWings ShadowFlight]

Easy question for you, why adv. mara have it and normal mara not?

That's because the trem authors though a crosshair wasn't needed for aliens with no ranged attack. But then again, it really helps to have them after all so I see no good reason not to add one to all aliens.

Why the Authors doesnt change it, they have enough time but they dont do it . I  think they use it at a part of balancing.

You want to go by what the authors do, and yet you seem blind to the fact that the very same authors added the ability for the users to customize the HUD even on sv_pure servers.

They could have blocked it, like they do with the 'in-game menus' for example, or they could have made it completely impossible to modify the client-side HUD at all, but they specifically designed it to be customized, even on sv_pure servers.

Again, you can't claim "the authors intended X!" when they put obvious, devoted work towards the exact opposite, and you're only thinking they intend X because of a lack of action. Pre-existing work towards a goal speaks much louder than an absence of work towards a conflicting goal.

[WolfWings ShadowFlight]

Some of you seem to miss the general principle here. It is not important what Clanbase, the Team Fortress community, Timbo, WolfWings or whoever says. I have been playing Quake for quite a while, and ever since the QuakeWorld (clan)wars from 1997, modification of skins and hud was disallowed. I have always stuck to these rules. For me, and I know for some other people, it's not the fact that you use that tiny crosshair what's wrong, it's the fact that some of you feel the need to edit/add art assets to Tremulous, to give you an unfair advantage over others, no matter how small, nobody is going to use a crosshair because it's not helping one bit. If you give these 'cheaters' one finger, they will soon demand your entire hand.

And yet... Timbo's word is what really matters. He's the one that's programmed Tremulous. What if he, or other Devs, come out and specifically say that custom HUDs are not cheating? :-)