1.2 Gameplay Changes

[FisherP]

Correct, and it was a very high priority for me. The repeater change, for instance, was something I felt had to be done in order for large maps to be playable, and making aliens more dependent on their bases (mostly via the regen change) was also partially because of this.

WOOHOO!!!!! I WAS RIGHT!! (lol)

[Urcscumug]

Yeah, but you could give it an insanely long repeat, like one gas every 20-30 seconds.

It doesn't matter. All such effects (basi gas, fatigue etc.) are purely client-side and can be removed, either by cvar or hacked client.

Point being, if you make an effect that's annoying enough, people will have an incentive to hack it off in the client.

[Conzul]

Yeah, but you could give it an insanely long repeat, like one gas every 20-30 seconds.

It doesn't matter. All such effects (basi gas, fatigue etc.) are purely client-side and can be removed, either by cvar or hacked client.

Point being, if you make an effect that's annoying enough, people will have an incentive to hack it off in the client.

Then server operators should have the option to scan everyone's tremulous client files upon connection to the server, to see if they've been tampered with. All major MMO's do this to prevent such occurences of cheating.

[kevlarman]

that's basically impossible in open source games.

[Conzul]

that's basically impossible in open source games.

I think it could be done. Maybe you could elect to scan just the files most often messed with.

[Meisseli]

I think scanning my computer is not a good idea anyways. Some people call such programs spyware, too.

Open source means, Conzul, that a mod/hack or so to disable your scan will be made in no time.

[Cadynum]

There's also the privacy issue. I don't want to give a game server access to my entire computer.
Cheaters will circumvent it and cheat anyway.

[SlackerLinux]

There's also the privacy issue. I don't want to give a game server access to my entire computer.
Cheaters will circumvent it and cheat anyway.

ever played a game with clientside anticheat like punkbuster or whatever steam uses they have that kinda of access already and god knows what they send back for their own end they prob have your entire browsing history in some database all your emails everything youll never know cause they are closed source

anyway i think anticheat should always be server-side its harder to do but much harder to bypass

[Cadynum]

ever played a game with clientside anticheat like punkbuster or whatever steam uses they have that kinda of access already and god knows what they send back for their own end they prob have your entire browsing history in some database all your emails everything youll never know cause they are closed source

anyway i think anticheat should always be server-side its harder to do but much harder to bypass

I don't play those games.

And of course you can find out, just check which files they access.

[Conzul]

That's BS. You know this is a major argument against Open Source. There are different levels of hackers. There are weekend warriors, lightweights, and dedicated MP-busters. A program (like trem) should have a closed source addendum that can help to foil hackers, and yet have the program still labeled as open source. I'd rather deal with a closed source program than have people hack out basi gass. I mean I just realized that a number of people do that, because they continue to pinpoint shoot me even when fully gassed repeatedly. I'm not against open source, it does many good things, but I think that Tremulous specifically is so fun that it transends open source. I'd give that up for an element of multiplayer security any day (but just with tremulous).

[F50]

That's BS. You know this is a major argument against Open Source. There are different levels of hackers. There are weekend warriors, lightweights, and dedicated MP-busters. A program (like trem) should have a closed source addendum that can help to foil hackers, and yet have the program still labeled as open source. I'd rather deal with a closed source program than have people hack out basi gass. I mean I just realized that a number of people do that, because they continue to pinpoint shoot me even when fully gassed repeatedly. I'm not against open source, it does many good things, but I think that Tremulous specifically is so fun that it transends open source. I'd give that up for an element of multiplayer security any day (but just with tremulous).

If I may say this: stfu conzul. A program like trem cannot be free or even open source with a closed source addendum. And even apart from that sentiment, if I can help it, I don't want that kind of software running on my computer at all. And with the execption of steam, I don't. And even that is only on windows which I boot into about once a month. Its a privacy issue. I'll probably make an exception for portal 2, because Valve seems to be pretty good (and portal 2 is pretty worth it anyways), at least on windows which I rarely use for anything other than valve games anyways.

I'd rather have some people who want to cheat do so (wallhack, aimbot, etc) as they do now and as they will continue to do (even if perhaps given a slightly greater advantage), than have that crap run on my machine and have my favorite game, tremulous, become non-free. A major argument against tremulous being open source this is not. Unless...no...you don't intend to make money from selling tremulous do you?

And you know very well no anticheat is flawless.

[David]

Being free he can make money from it.  Were it non-free only the dev would be able to make money from it.

Also, adding something closed source would be illegal.  Go read the GPL.

[Meisseli]

I'd rather deal with a closed source program than have people hack out basi gass. I mean I just realized that a number of people do that, because they continue to pinpoint shoot me even when fully gassed repeatedly.

Hahahaha. You aren't serious with this one?

Perhaps you should first know how gas works. In fact, you aim constantly at the same point you used to before. It's just graphics to make your view distorted, not your aim. It is really easy to shoot you regardless of the gas when you know what you're doing.

A program (like trem) should have a closed source addendum that can help to foil hackers, and yet have the program still labeled as open source.

White should be black and still be white?

No, things don't work like that at all.

[Conzul]

That's BS. You know this is a major argument against Open Source. There are different levels of hackers. There are weekend warriors, lightweights, and dedicated MP-busters. A program (like trem) should have a closed source addendum that can help to foil hackers, and yet have the program still labeled as open source. I'd rather deal with a closed source program than have people hack out basi gass. I mean I just realized that a number of people do that, because they continue to pinpoint shoot me even when fully gassed repeatedly. I'm not against open source, it does many good things, but I think that Tremulous specifically is so fun that it transends open source. I'd give that up for an element of multiplayer security any day (but just with tremulous).

If I may say this: stfu conzul. A program like trem cannot be free or even open source with a closed source addendum. And even apart from that sentiment, if I can help it, I don't want that kind of software running on my computer at all. And with the execption of steam, I don't. And even that is only on windows which I boot into about once a month. Its a privacy issue. I'll probably make an exception for portal 2, because Valve seems to be pretty good (and portal 2 is pretty worth it anyways), at least on windows which I rarely use for anything other than valve games anyways.

I'd rather have some people who want to cheat do so (wallhack, aimbot, etc) as they do now and as they will continue to do (even if perhaps given a slightly greater advantage), than have that crap run on my machine and have my favorite game, tremulous, become non-free. A major argument against tremulous being open source this is not. Unless...no...you don't intend to make money from selling tremulous do you?

And you know very well no anticheat is flawless.

Well thats where we disagree, innit?
Maybe I'll hack my client so that gass and fatigue does nothing to me. I'm glad that wouldn't bother you.
I know the difference between free beer and open source, it's all my significant other will talk about.

I'd rather deal with a closed source program than have people hack out basi gass. I mean I just realized that a number of people do that, because they continue to pinpoint shoot me even when fully gassed repeatedly.

Hahahaha. You aren't serious with this one?

Perhaps you should first know how gas works. In fact, you aim constantly at the same point you used to before. It's just graphics to make your view distorted, not your aim. It is really easy to shoot you regardless of the gas when you know what you're doing.

I know how it works, but it should make it harder to hit a moving target, which I am. Hell, if gass actually made your gun point in a certain way instead of clientside effects, that would be harder to mess with.

[Meisseli]

So where are these gas and chaingun hackers you're talking about?

[Conzul]

You want a list? I can compile a list of likely individuals, with several weeks of play.

[Cadynum]

You want a list? I can compile a list of likely individuals, with several weeks of play.

Make that a closed source list so we don't have to be bothered with it.

[Conzul]

You want a list? I can compile a list of likely individuals, with several weeks of play.

Make that a closed source list so we don't have to be bothered with it.

Heheh.

[Collective]

The changes so far sound great and are well worth the wait. Don't rush the release just because of impatient non-contributors whining.

[baybal]

So where are these gas and chaingun hackers you're talking about?

I've seen pretty much of them in 1.1

[baybal]

I also seen people with no pounce delay as well, both in 1.1 and gpp.

What I really would like to see is server side pouncing.

https://bugzilla.icculus.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4679

[mana]

If it can be hacked away on the client and it is reliably identified as getting abused in the wild, it should get implemented on the server side. Clean, Opensource, requires work though.

[Collective]

Because people want to play tremulous, and want there to be players in the future to play with.

All this every server being different crap is stopping new people, and killing the game.  I'm pushing for server to be marked on the list if they have modified gameplay, but I doubt it will happen.

So basically, stop trying to kill tremulous you arseholes.

I agree, Tremulous would be so much more alive right now if players could easily identify and play on a vanilla 1.1.0 server. *roll eyes*

[Rops]

Please release the new version. Its easy for this game.

[ULTRA Random ViruS]

Can the tyrant heal a little faster pls? It has a load of health to heal, which dies out quicker. Somehow, basilisk and their healing aura is faster than a rant.

[superspirality]

Can the tyrant heal a little faster pls? It has a load of health to heal, which dies out quicker. Somehow, basilisk and their healing aura is faster than a rant.

Ahem, 1.2?

[umca]

The fact that trem is a game where the stats are affected by map size points only to the fact that the game play is biased in favor of the aliens.

Teams in Trem are different so its only natural that the environment affects the outcome. Well, the disadvantaged team could use teamwork and tactics, but hey, lets eliminate this possibility by "balancing".

I used to play 1.1 on Amsterdam Unlimited (in fact it was the only server I played at). It featured a nice mod which some fancy additions / changes:

I remember some of them:

humans:
- proximity mines: takes 300 hp away (kills every alien except tyrant)
- bouncy ball: secondary fire mode for Lucifer cannon
- healing construction kits: ckit can be used for healing teammates and even "overload" their health to up to 120 hp
- personal defence system (pds): Battlesuits could buy and add it - it electrified near targets, which was very effective against dretches.
- burning charges: secondary fire mode for flamethrower
- deployable forcefield: blocks movement for certain time
- secondary fire mode for shotgun

aliens:
- Invisilisk: Adv. Basilisk invisibility for 4 sec (~36 sec recharge) - very effective for taking out arms/nodes when in SD and no turrets around.
- Hovelport: use two hovels to teleport between them.
- Adv. Goons can not immediately spit barbs after evolving, they had to wait some time.
- bouncy barb: Adv. Goons can use all three barbs at once to fire a "bouncy barb" which bounces off wall, ceiling, ground (therefore was hard to aim) but was able to kill a human/turret in one shot

Plus: More BP and sharing/donating on.

These additions allowed both teams, especially humans, alternative tactical approaches.

Well, after some time I wanted to play trem again. I downloaded 1.2 and atm I am a bit disappointed because I was used to the above mentioned mod and so this "beta" without those features feels like returning to stone age of Tremulous. All in all 1.2 provides some good ideas but imo too many changes. Perhaps its easier for beginners now but there is less long-term motivation.

I just wish they would use the great "amsterdam unlimited" mod as the basis of further development of Tremulous (not many changes would have been necessary though)

Sorry for bad english.

[Meisseli]

There is a learning curve indeed. Give it some 1-2 weeks and explore the new strategies & most importantly building, and see how it goes.

Never played Amsterdam Unlimited, mainly due to the Unlimited (BP) part, and can't really say I think highly of the changes you mentioned but I don't know how they play together. 1.2 plays extremely well in my opinion though.

[Tremulant]

I'm afraid there's no delicate way to put this, it would appear that all of the Amsterdam unlimited features you mention are a load of bollocks.

The reason trem 1.2 feels so alien is that you stopped playing trem back when you first got sucked into the pointlessly over the top mod culture of 1.1, basing 1.2 on that appalling mess would benefit no one.

[Norfenstein]

I just wish they would use the great "amsterdam unlimited" mod as the basis of further development of Tremulous (not many changes would have been necessary though)

I kind of wanted the opposite: the best "vanilla" version of Tremulous possible to give modders a balanced foundation to build from.