Alien evolution inside of the base.

[swamp-cecil]

Alien evolving could be more interesting if the alien had to spend some time in an unfinished form, like a cocoon. Then evolving anywhere wouldn't be a problem and perhaps the evolving could be faster on creep. Even de-evolving could work in that case.

i dont like that idea for evolving. Maybe if there WAS devolving it would be cocoon style

[Qrntz]

Alien evolving could be more interesting if the alien had to spend some time in an unfinished form, like a cocoon. Then evolving anywhere wouldn't be a problem and perhaps the evolving could be faster on creep. Even de-evolving could work in that case.

i dont like that idea for evolving. Maybe if there WAS devolving it would be cocoon style

Hmm, why not.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Alien evolving could be more interesting if the alien had to spend some time in an unfinished form, like a cocoon. Then evolving anywhere wouldn't be a problem and perhaps the evolving could be faster on creep. Even de-evolving could work in that case.

Yes!

[CreatureofHell]

Can one be able to "devolve" to their orriginal class 10 seconds after evolving and get their evos back?

Evolve into rant -> Charge into human base -> *swipe swipe* -> devolve -> die as a dretch -> repeat for profit

You can only do it in base as if its another type of evolution. You also have to be for less than 10 seconds. To kill, and return to OM isnt easy.

Oh I see. You didn't mention they had to be near the om. Then again the aliens could just put the om near the human base...

[swamp-cecil]

Can one be able to "devolve" to their orriginal class 10 seconds after evolving and get their evos back?

Evolve into rant -> Charge into human base -> *swipe swipe* -> devolve -> die as a dretch -> repeat for profit

You can only do it in base as if its another type of evolution. You also have to be for less than 10 seconds. To kill, and return to OM isnt easy.

Oh I see. You didn't mention they had to be near the om. Then again the aliens could just put the om near the human base...

Thats a tactic. Humans making base near aliens = massive rushes = its a tactic.

[SirDude]

Hardly. In my experience, humans often die long before expending their ammo, unless it's clan action or a large group of them. When their base is being attacked, aliens are definitely the underdogs.

Under dogs? it depends on map, i find that alien base building is more forgiving. as they don't relay on it as much as humans. all the aliens need is a OM and a egg to win a game, humans need a arm, medi, spawn, and a RC to win.

but all in all...

Yeah, let's not change anything, cuz every problem trem has is already part of the game!

THIS

[CorSair]

I wouldn't change nothing too, even as evolving in middle of alien base, when humans assault the base, would sound delicious.

Only thing what aliens need to do, is to find spot where human is not in range (damn hard, yes. Impossible? Not totally.) And humans need to cover the area to prevent them to do that.


And what comes to de-evolving, DON'T think of it. It is not relevant on this matter. Nor doesn't fit for current Tremulous, atleast, not now.

[Norfenstein]

However what if aliens could at the very least evolve into basilisks and marauders within the confines of their own base? As an added precaution they would have to be within a certain distance of the Overman for them to ignore the nearby humans. Why isn't this already in effect? I'm obviously just a noob. But go ahead, troll me with wisdom anyways.

If humans are being so aggressive that aliens can't even evolve in their own base, then the humans deserve the slight bonus of aliens having to vacate temporarily to evolve.

[Dracone]

^ Yeah.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Sometimes it's not possible to vacate.

[Tremulant]

And when it's not possible to vacate or kill the invaders, the game's up, building your team into a room with a single entrance has the potential to be a seriously bad move, it seems to me that window room on niveus, for instance, shouldn't be nearly as successful a base spot as it appears to be(rapid feeds to s3 and rantwhoreability of surrounding corridors helps a lot).

[swamp-cecil]

The only reason players would spawn camp is for tremstats. However, if you can buy a prifle in base and defend against rants with it, why not as a rant and kill humans?

[Tremulant]

The only reason players would spawn camp is to exploit the failure of the enemy team to place spawns securely in order to gain easy credits/frags to level-up quicker.

fixed that for you.
But who brought up spawncamping?

[swamp-cecil]

The only reason players would spawn camp is to exploit the failure of the enemy team to place spawns securely in order to gain easy credits/frags to level-up quicker.

fixed that for you.
But who brought up spawncamping?

Me. If you are spawncamping, you should be able to easily kill the spawns so they simply do it for tremstats.

[Tremulant]

Am i missing something? It looks as thought you completely failed to grasp the point i was trying to make, but i'm willing to admit that i may be very confused myself, why would you not want easy frags from a captured spawn in order to boost your stage or evo count more rapidly?

[swamp-cecil]

Am i missing something? It looks as thought you completely failed to grasp the point i was trying to make, but i'm willing to admit that i may be very confused myself, why would you not want easy frags from a captured spawn in order to boost your stage or evo count more rapidly?

the most common spawncamping is in ATCS where the aliens feed the humans to HS2 and they get helmets, battpacks, MDrivers and larmour. They will then sit at the corner of their base and spawncamp where the eggs are 100% visible. However, in some places like nexus, they cant get up to the spawns so thats when they would camp there as you mentionned.

Also: if humans can buy from the armoury while tyrants rush their base, why cant dretches?
I also agree with kiwi how its part of the game, but, theres no honour. The aliens dont put up a fight.

[David]

Also: if humans can buy from the armoury while tyrants rush their base, why cant dretches?
I also agree with kiwi how its part of the game, but, theres no honour. The aliens dont put up a fight.

If aliens can wall walk, why can't humans?

[swamp-cecil]

Also: if humans can buy from the armoury while tyrants rush their base, why cant dretches?
I also agree with kiwi how its part of the game, but, theres no honour. The aliens dont put up a fight.

If aliens can wall walk, why can't humans?

No one saidd they cant have wallwalf boots.
If aliens have claws, why cant humans?
Because wallwalking and claws are alien things to do. Use technology and guns is not alien like. Evolving in base is not very alien and also not very not alien, so  its meh.

[mooseberry]

Also: if humans can buy from the armoury while tyrants rush their base, why cant dretches?
I also agree with kiwi how its part of the game, but, theres no honour. The aliens dont put up a fight.

If aliens can wall walk, why can't humans?

No one saidd they cant have wallwalf boots.
If aliens have claws, why cant humans?
Because wallwalking and claws are alien things to do. Use technology and guns is not alien like. Evolving in base is not very alien and also not very not alien, so  its meh.

I think you missed his point. (Aliens and humans are not supposed to be balanced x to x, y to y, z to z. They are different races, different teams, whose overall abilities should be such that the win-loss ration between both sides is a close to 50-50 as possible.)

[ziplocpeople]

I think it's fairly obvious that aliens can't evolve near humans as it's an evolutionary trait they've picked up through years of natural selection. When you're shot at as a dretch, and evolve, the damage scales and you suddenly have a 70 hp rant. The aliens that had this built in protection survived (the restricted evolving, for trade-off of safety,) and mated with the eggs, giving them this feature as well. While it may have its own drawbacks, it also has its bonuses.
EDIT: I have support

(11:59:30 PM) kharnov: yes
(11:59:36 PM) kharnov: grangor mates with the eggs
(11:59:44 PM) kharnov: all aliens mate with grangor
(11:59:54 PM) kharnov: even hueg tyran
(2/16/2011 12:00:09 AM) kharnov: tiran is liek raaaargh camaan
(12:00:13 AM) kharnov: grangor is like plis no
(12:00:20 AM) kharnov: tyrian is like no im hueg
(12:00:26 AM) kharnov: granogir is liek ;____;
(12:00:30 AM) kharnov: then he;lp
(12:00:35 AM) kharnov: and gg.
(12:02:01 AM) Medicus Maximus: gg
(12:02:13 AM) kharnov: ye
(12:04:08 AM) Medicus Maximus: I updated my post.
(12:04:46 AM) kharnov: Hahahaha.
(12:05:21 AM) Medicus Maximus: of course
(12:05:32 AM) Medicus Maximus: if someone is viewing this with the KDE DE
(12:05:39 AM) Medicus Maximus: they will see
(12:05:43 AM) Medicus Maximus: Kkharnov
(12:05:59 AM) Medicus Maximus: and MediKus MaKsimus

[Anonymoose]

I fully support this motion, not being able to evolve in your own base is ridiculous, its the equivalent of not being able to use the armory while aliens are near the human base.
I do not like how when the humans rush the aliens the aliens have to piss off to evolve leaving the base to be ravaged, while when aliens rush the humans its all to easy for human builders or naked rifles to quickly press a bind key and suddenly chain-suits everywhere.
I personally cant see it having any negative affect on balance.
Aussie Assault have already explained that they have had this system in place and it has not altered balance.

I honestly cant see why this is still in the discussion stage.

[David]

I honestly cant see why this is still in the discussion stage.

It's not.  The decision was made a long time ago.

[cron]

I honestly cant see why this is still in the discussion stage.

I think he means 'Why is this still in discussion? There's a fix and it works so go do it'..

It's not.  The decision was made a long time ago.

Obviously it was not such a popular decision!

[ziplocpeople]

It's not.  The decision was made a long time ago.

Obviously it was not such a popular decision!

Even so, that doesn't change the fact that it's clearly a genetic trait passed down to modern aliens from years long ago.

[UniqPhoeniX]

Having more than a single entrance doesn't guarantee that aliens will be able to safely get out and back into base. If you lose half hp as dretch trying to get out, then that try is already wasted. There is nothing stopping humans from having a few chainsuits inside alien base ripping apart every dretch in sight, while a luci/pulse takes down the eggs/om. Aliens simply can't recover from a couple of suits inside the base nearly as easily as humans can from several goons/rants inside base. Add to that the fact that alien defences are far less effective at finishing off enemies... That is also why aliens require 4-5 eggs to dretchswarm attackers while for humans at same player count 2 is plenty.

I know that the teams are *supposed to be different* but you can't balance a game and keep it fun for both teams like this. IT DOESN'T WORK. Dretches are getting ripped apart even against naked rifles, and they are supposed to be the primary alien defence after humans get some defences down. It's most definitely NOT fun dieing 20 times trying to kill those 2 suits in your base, and once you are done, seeing the next 2 arrive.

[SirDude]

think about the humans, they relay on their base MUCH more, loosing a arm or med is CRIPPLING and easily decides a game, aliens on the other hand are self-sufficient and only need 1 egg and a OM to win.

if the humans are raging in the alien base like that, then they have failed to defend and are loosing the game, no need for all these so called "balances".


its like chess, its not what a the piece can do, is how you move it.

[mooseberry]

Having more than a single entrance doesn't guarantee that aliens will be able to safely get out and back into base. If you lose half hp as dretch trying to get out, then that try is already wasted. There is nothing stopping humans from having a few chainsuits inside alien base ripping apart every dretch in sight, while a luci/pulse takes down the eggs/om. Aliens simply can't recover from a couple of suits inside the base nearly as easily as humans can from several goons/rants inside base. Add to that the fact that alien defences are far less effective at finishing off enemies... That is also why aliens require 4-5 eggs to dretchswarm attackers while for humans at same player count 2 is plenty.

I know that the teams are *supposed to be different* but you can't balance a game and keep it fun for both teams like this. IT DOESN'T WORK. Dretches are getting ripped apart even against naked rifles, and they are supposed to be the primary alien defence after humans get some defences down. It's most definitely NOT fun dieing 20 times trying to kill those 2 suits in your base, and once you are done, seeing the next 2 arrive.

Well seeing as how in larger games (which is when humans are more likely to be able to block all exits) aliens tend to win more, if humans do manage to dominate like that, then they are dominating like that, and probably will win, so? I know it can be a frustrating situation to be in, but most losing situations are, usually. Imagine any situation where humans or aliens are about to lose, that will probably be frustrating and you could imagine a way to "fix" it. But how I see it, it isn't easy or common to get a human team to completely surround the alien base and prevent exit. And if the humans do manage to do this, imagine how frustrated they will be when they can't finish off the game that they are clearly dominating because the aliens are able to evolve and camp too much. Basically, this game is pretty evenly balanced, with a slight edge towards aliens, so I'm not sure why making it easier for aliens would be a good idea. My advice on this situation is to think of it as a player situation, and if you find yourself getting trapped, you better adjust your strategy and either focus all your resources to break through one point, or/and build some outside eggs. Or just get killed, admit defeat, move on to more even teams next time.

[UniqPhoeniX]

The fact that aliens win more in larger games is somewhat irrelevant, as there are MANY other things that depend on player count affecting the outcome. It doesn't take lots of humans to stop aliens from evolving, it happens with 6 vs 6 easily enough. Also larger teams = less chance of all large aliens getting killed off.

I'm not talking about situations where humans have an outpost at all alien base exits and have actually managed to get most of their team on the offensive (which would be the proper definition of 'dominating', and would actually win the game almost always if map control mattered), and that wouldn't even necessarily prevent aliens from evolving unless their base is in a tiny room.
I'm talking about situations where aliens have lost a few defences and humans have managed to get a couple of suits inside their base and kill off all/most large aliens (this is NOT "clearly dominating"), at which point no more large aliens appear, and aliens have a VERY difficult time getting the humans out again, even if they have plenty of evos. You can't simply go out of the base and come back at this point, by the time you get outside you will often be low on health making evolving a waste. Even if you manage to get out and back in at full hp, the few extra seconds it took you could have been used to kill off the few attacking humans if there were still several large aliens.

I'm not complaining about this because it makes aliens lose, but because it can take aliens from almost winning to about to lose too quickly and with little effort from the human team. Even if aliens can stop the humans from finishing off their base for a long time, they can't recover (without hugely outperforming the human team) since at this point all competent humans are constantly fed far more credits than they lose. Even if aliens manage to finally push humans out, they will already be at a huge disadvantage, with humans fed and on the way back, and alien base in shreds with most aliens still low on evos, since humans often focus on the few that did manage to evolve, who rarely stand a chance against several suits with just dretches backing them up.

Having matches well balanced by win ratio doesn't make Tremulous awesome and perfect. A game where the winning team is chosen randomly would also have a balanced win ratio, but is by no means fun.

(Also, admitting defeat is for the losers. I've made a comeback from being the last granger with no eggs several times, only due to practice and the usual incompetence in communication and coordination of movement/search in human team.)

[F50]

If you lose half hp as dretch trying to get out, then that try is already wasted.

basilisk

[SirDude]

I'm not talking about situations where humans have an outpost at all alien base exits and have actually managed to get most of their team on the offensive (which would be the proper definition of 'dominating', and would actually win the game almost always if map control mattered), and that wouldn't even necessarily prevent aliens from evolving unless their base is in a tiny room.
I'm talking about situations where aliens have lost a few defences and humans have managed to get a couple of suits inside their base and kill off all/most large aliens (this is NOT "clearly dominating"), at which point no more large aliens appear, and aliens have a VERY difficult time getting the humans out again, even if they have plenty of evos. You can't simply go out of the base and come back at this point, by the time you get outside you will often be low on health making evolving a waste. Even if you manage to get out and back in at full hp, the few extra seconds it took you could have been used to kill off the few attacking humans if there were still several large aliens.

then what about humans? they can have their offensive and defensive capability completely taken out with out with the aliens not even being there, In SD if humans loose arm are they are 100% DOOMED aleins only have to worry about eggs and om.

do you think humans should be able to heal and buy equipment at rc? because humans are in the same boat when it comes to having you defensive capability disabled, thing is tho that humans have it way harder in that respect.