Author Topic: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results  (Read 266387 times)

wolfbr

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #180 on: July 21, 2011, 09:16:46 pm »
wolfbr, you are neglecting to give reasons why this will improve balance. You are talking out of your ass. "REALISM" by itself is NOT a valid reason to implement a feature like this in Tremulous, or any game that does not attempt to emulate real life. Give us more reasons. "Gameplay" is not a reason. "Gameplay because..." IS. "It is the future" is NOT a valid argument for why Tremulous is realistic. Tremulous is NOT realistic, and (like I've said two or three times) trying to argue for a change purely on the basis of realism will get you nowhere. WHY will recoil benefit gameplay or balance? I've told you that making players miss shots for absolutely no reason with the MD will only frustrate players, leading to many changes to allow misses to effect the MD less, and completely changing how the weapon works. You did not argue against that. You did not give any reasons for why the lasgun should be more inaccurate. Is it too accurate? Is Tremulous imbalanced because of it? Is it OP? I doubt all of these things.

I have already cited several reasons the topic, ok, I shall summarize them back to you.

lgun spread> in some situation,help in close range to kill small aliens or can help aliens catch up with human, reduces the efficiency of camper(especially those who are helping other players by far).reload for lgun- give a small chage to the aliens get close safely, or in escapes, reduces the efficiency of the reactor/Repeater camping, same thing for spread in lgun or prifle.

for MD, suggest that the spread would be petty(very very very small spread), almost no one can see, perhaps, in some situations, very open maps, you might miss a dreatch, but not affect in the official maps.in short, normally, you "would not miss their shots".
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« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 09:19:00 pm by wolfbr »

Plague Bringer

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #181 on: July 21, 2011, 09:25:29 pm »
Why are you interested in balancing weapons for maps that are poorly designed? There should be no map where the changes you are proposing to the MD will work.

The lasgun has poor damage and slow firing speed. It is, however, an accurate weapon. The lgun is the medium-long range version of the short-medium range rifle. Why on earth would you want to rebalance a long range weapon to fulfill a duty that's already covered? Also, camping in a tactical position (a forward) is something that should never be allowed by the alien team. If humans manage to get a forward up then they should reap the benefits (free energy weapon ammo, a medi, and turret cover). If, however, you think that there is another situation in which a camper will be able to help his team win the game by camping, feel free to say so. As it is, though, there are no effective base positions that will allow a player to both camp AND fight at the enemy base.

It seems that all of your reasons for rebalancing weapons are rather silly. Aliens don't need help attacking lgunners any more than they do attacking riflers, and any situation that would allow you to camp with a lasgun or snipe with an MD should not be situations in vanilla Tremulous. Community maps are NOT to be balanced for.

ALSO, repeater camping without reloads is possible with any energy weapon. It takes less than a second to buy ammo.
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RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #182 on: July 21, 2011, 09:28:14 pm »
tremulous are a game, no?

i give to you 2 videos, one real and other from a game, duh, see the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SFilo7To0Q

I think some guys are watching too much starwars

what part of "a laser is light focused onto a single point" do you not understand?  it would take the mass of a planet scale object to cause the trajectory of the light to bend or "spread" from your point of aim.  light is an electromagnetic emission (you know, visible light being part of the spectrum that includes infra-red (heat) energy, and ultraviolet (x-rays) energy.  would my lightbulb have recoil?  why to arc-wielders NOT have recoil (especially compared to an acetiline wielder, where you can FEEL the expelled gas pushing your hand back)

nowhere have i heard that the prifle was a laser weapon.  i've always assumed it was like the q3 weapon it was created from - the plasma rifle.  considering a "projectile" made of plasma would have to overcome atmospheric resistance, i've found both the pulse and plasma rifles to be sufficiently realistic for my gameplay enjoyment.

now, realistically, a MD should have TREMENDOUS recoil, even if it is accelerating its projectiles with magnets, but "this is da footcha"  i can accept it does not considering X x 100 years of arms development.

wolfbr, you also fail to apply your own arguments to your reasoning for "realistic balance".  why can the humans NOT have robotic accuracy?  this is the future.  they are all specially designed and augmented combat clones.  in the real world, it might not be too long before we can start fielding footsoldier robots.  if i were going to people my military with clones rather than machines, the clones better have a damn big advantage over machines.  machines are far more inexpensive, easier to repair, and do not take as many years to "grow" and "train".  the machines do not even need to be autonomic.  consider the predator drones, currently in use.

yes, tremulous can have some changes made to make gameplay more fun, and perhaps even more "realistic" (of course, in a sci-fi setting, "realistic" is extremely subjective) but the changes you suggest are quite senseless.  in reality, the lasgun is really not too much better than a rifle.  spread and reload would change it from "rifle equivalent" to "rifle clone".  i agree that the MD needs tweaking, but i feel this is more a matter of damage done vs target hp, rather than a need for spread.

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Haraldx

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #183 on: July 21, 2011, 09:32:46 pm »
I'm not going to really answer him about the videos he posted (as I'm not going to talk with him anyway as it just makes him post even more bullshit), but everyone knows that high force lasers consume very much energy, the lasgun seems to shoot the laser and then has a half-second recharge not to overheat or empty the battery too fast.
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Undeference

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #184 on: July 22, 2011, 12:19:17 am »
what part of "a laser is light focused onto a single point" do you not understand?  it would take the mass of a planet scale object to cause the trajectory of the light to bend or "spread" from your point of aim.
or just enough distance since light produced by a laser won't be perfectly collimated; but the spread would not be in the sense intended

Quote
now, realistically, a MD should have TREMENDOUS recoil
it's more likely that you would get pushed in the direction you fired, but not TREMENDOUSly
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RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #185 on: July 22, 2011, 12:50:32 am »
Quote
now, realistically, a MD should have TREMENDOUS recoil
it's more likely that you would get pushed in the direction you fired, but not TREMENDOUSly
depends.  assuming a "perfect" recoil buffer system, the velocity of the projectile would likely carry you with it.  lacking such a system, you'd likely have the weapon take your shoulder off, if not bodily fling you backwards at a high velocity, really depending on barrel length and where the projectile goes supersonic.  take a look at the railgun prototypes in production now.  they are anything but recoilless.

furthermore, depending on projectile velocity, the projectile would cause a "suction" phenomenon.  anything within range would suffer serious injury.

consider armor piercing tank shells.  anything within, i dont know, say 5-10 feet of a passing AP round will get "sucked in" after the round.  closer may result in you losing limbs to the suction force.  AP when it HITS is decidedly nasty.  i seem to remember reading about the depleted uranium rounds.  the 120mm tank shell passed through something like 7 BMPs (a BMP is a warsaw-pact armored troop carrier) and liquidised the test-subject monkeys in the crew compartment of the last BMP.

just going off of memory here.  back when i was active military i could remember more of the details behind the whole thing, but it has been a while.  let's not forget newton, though.  accelerating a projectile to such a velocity in such a short span of time will produce a reaction.  one we typically call recoil.


i will concede i am not the most educated about the physics of light.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 12:52:46 am by RAKninja-Decepticon »
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Qrntz

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #186 on: July 22, 2011, 02:01:15 am »

You make up Qrntz, u always angry, just calmdown. :police:
I am stupid idiot who dares to open mouth and start debating

Plague Bringer

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RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #188 on: July 22, 2011, 02:39:40 am »
liquidised the test-subject monkeys
:'(
and just think of what such rounds have done to actual human beings since the those days of testing.

killing is messy, not like in the movies.  even as over-the-top most movies are concerning many details, they almost never accurately depict the damage the real tools of war are capable of.

back in basic training, when first firing the 25mm chaingun of the bradly, a deer got hit by a training round.  there were four largish chunks of deer after that, and a lot of material best described as "liquidised".  shit sucked, cleaning up that mess.
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wolfbr

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #189 on: July 22, 2011, 08:00:09 am »
Why are you interested in balancing weapons for maps that are poorly designed? There should be no map where the changes you are proposing to the MD will work.

The lasgun has poor damage and slow firing speed. It is, however, an accurate weapon. The lgun is the medium-long range version of the short-medium range rifle. Why on earth would you want to rebalance a long range weapon to fulfill a duty that's already covered? Also, camping in a tactical position (a forward) is something that should never be allowed by the alien team. If humans manage to get a forward up then they should reap the benefits (free energy weapon ammo, a medi, and turret cover). If, however, you think that there is another situation in which a camper will be able to help his team win the game by camping, feel free to say so. As it is, though, there are no effective base positions that will allow a player to both camp AND fight at the enemy base.

It seems that all of your reasons for rebalancing weapons are rather silly. Aliens don't need help attacking lgunners any more than they do attacking riflers, and any situation that would allow you to camp with a lasgun or snipe with an MD should not be situations in vanilla Tremulous. Community maps are NOT to be balanced for.

ALSO, repeater camping without reloads is possible with any energy weapon. It takes less than a second to buy ammo.

lgun remain a weapon with precision, but would not have surgical/robotic precision. weapons have not spread, humans have : P.
about repeater camper, maybe, there is a way to fix it, simple, delaytime to reload your weapon(like 5 seconds or more)
about MD, the verysmall spread is more for realism, not affect the gameplay much, perhaps over long distances, the player would have to target the center of the aliens (the corners are at risk of erring),yes, to kill in long range, you need to aim well, especially against small aliens : ).

and for me, lgun is like more a eletric gun(it fires small bundles of energy at the enemy
, but, I think nobody knows for sure how it works, like star wars or gantz weapons :P
Quote
but everyone knows that high force lasers consume very much energy, the lasgun seems to shoot the laser and then has a half-second recharge not to overheat or empty the battery too fast.
lgun have recoil, lasers gun have no recoil, so gun does not shoot lasers : )

Quote
wolfbr, you also fail to apply your own arguments to your reasoning for "realistic balance".  why can the humans NOT have robotic accuracy?  this is the future.  they are all specially designed and augmented combat clones.  in the real world, it might not be too long before we can start fielding footsoldier robots.  if i were going to people my military with clones rather than machines, the clones better have a damn big advantage over machines.  machines are far more inexpensive, easier to repair, and do not take as many years to "grow" and "train".  the machines do not even need to be autonomic.  consider the predator drones, currently in use.

the best soldier, and with better accuracy, one would still not 100% accurate, even being well-trained clones (like star wars: P) would still not be "perfect", in tremulous, humans are not perfect like jedi warriors : P.

and robots are already used in irak, and the U.S. is already developing a "battlesuit"  :battlesuit:

as I said, the weapons can be perfect(precision), but not humans, and therefore should not have 100% accuracy

Quote
yes, tremulous can have some changes made to make gameplay more fun, and perhaps even more "realistic" (of course, in a sci-fi setting, "realistic" is extremely subjective) but the changes you suggest are quite senseless.  in reality, the lasgun is really not too much better than a rifle.  spread and reload would change it from "rifle equivalent" to "rifle clone".  i agree that the MD needs tweaking, but i feel this is more a matter of damage done vs target hp, rather than a need for spread.

not exactly equal.
rifle,lgun,chaingun and rifle, all are automatic, and have their differences, it would not change, like other games(especially those with several firearms, however, each with its pros on cons, like the fact that they do not make them equal).
some spread for lgun,"fast reload" time and maybe more damage, make it better in long range, the rifle still takes longer to recharge, and lgun has the advantage of being recharged at various locations(reapeter and reactor), I imagine the lgun more like hl2 pulse rifle(fast reload,slow fire interval, good damage, and,accurately)

Plague Bringer

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #190 on: July 22, 2011, 09:21:39 am »
Everything in my post said that repeater campers deserved to camp their repeaters. I also said that camping cannot contribute significantly to offense in any well designed map and therefore, it is not a problem that needs fixing. You may think otherwise. If you do, I invite you to give reasons and explanations.

I'm not understanding your arguments about accuracy. You understand that the examples you're using are all very heavily based in reality, right? Do you also understand that "spread" doesn't exist so much as recoil does? Spread is negligible at the ranges experienced in Tremulous. Recoil, however, most certainly is not. Spread belongs in Tremulous (where it is already). Recoil does not. Tremulous DOES NOT aim to emulate real life. Nor does Urban Terror or Enemy Territory. Realism, contrary to what you seem to believe, is not necessary in every game - in some, it does not belong.

I cannot understand your arguments. You're basically saying that you think weapons should have a spread so small that it won't effect gameplay. Why? Also, are you trying to tell me that your aim is perfect? Do you hit every shot in Tremulous? I certainly don't. Innacuracy does not need to be forced. Like I've said, it will be frustrating at best, and very pointless. I don't understand why giving MD enough spread to make long distance sniping (something that should not be possible in most scenarios in a vanilla map) will have any effect on gameplay, balance, or fun, and any more spread will make it frustrating to use.

For the last time, you are complaining about realism in a game where aliens transform into other aliens on a whim. I simply will not accept that as a reason to consider any suggestions valid, and you sure as hell can expect the devs will react the same way.
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CorSair

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #192 on: July 22, 2011, 07:18:21 pm »
Gah, seems none of valid points doesn't hit...

Unless Mr. Military Physics (a.k.a RAKninja-Decepticon) didn't tell you, let me recite what I know too.

light is an electromagnetic emission (you know, visible light being part of the spectrum that includes infra-red (heat) energy, and ultraviolet (x-rays) energy.  would my lightbulb have recoil?  why to arc-wielders NOT have recoil (especially compared to an acetiline wielder, where you can FEEL the expelled gas pushing your hand back)

Also, if mass driver has *any* spread, then someone fucked up with those riflings, and should be *immediately* sacked.

Now, only game where real life rules should apply in game, it should only be Operation Flashpoint... And this forum is only for Tremulous.

Tl;dr... There are lot of other essential tweaking than this lasgun/mass driver spread.

Now...




Also: 45 posts of wanking same idea.


TheLollingManv2

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #193 on: July 22, 2011, 07:32:29 pm »
[wiki]Tremulous is a very realistic game[/wiki]

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #194 on: July 22, 2011, 09:58:30 pm »
Gah, seems none of valid points doesn't hit...

Unless Mr. Military Physics (a.k.a RAKninja-Decepticon) didn't tell you, let me recite what I know too.

\=|

i dont even know how to respond to that.
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1337-Kynes

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #195 on: July 23, 2011, 12:36:43 am »
I can make useless physics points as well as the next man (Light does have recoil!) but, realism is silly and tremulous is awesome. I don't think we should do anything to change that.
What do you get. When combine. Deuterium pellet. Terrawatt laser.
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wolfbr

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #196 on: July 23, 2011, 06:50:24 pm »
Everything in my post said that repeater campers deserved to camp their repeaters. I also said that camping cannot contribute significantly to offense in any well designed map and therefore, it is not a problem that needs fixing. You may think otherwise. If you do, I invite you to give reasons and explanations.

I'm not understanding your arguments about accuracy. You understand that the examples you're using are all very heavily based in reality, right? Do you also understand that "spread" doesn't exist so much as recoil does? Spread is negligible at the ranges experienced in Tremulous. Recoil, however, most certainly is not. Spread belongs in Tremulous (where it is already). Recoil does not. Tremulous DOES NOT aim to emulate real life. Nor does Urban Terror or Enemy Territory. Realism, contrary to what you seem to believe, is not necessary in every game - in some, it does not belong.

I cannot understand your arguments. You're basically saying that you think weapons should have a spread so small that it won't effect gameplay. Why? Also, are you trying to tell me that your aim is perfect? Do you hit every shot in Tremulous? I certainly don't. Innacuracy does not need to be forced. Like I've said, it will be frustrating at best, and very pointless. I don't understand why giving MD enough spread to make long distance sniping (something that should not be possible in most scenarios in a vanilla map) will have any effect on gameplay, balance, or fun, and any more spread will make it frustrating to use.

For the last time, you are complaining about realism in a game where aliens transform into other aliens on a whim. I simply will not accept that as a reason to consider any suggestions valid, and you sure as hell can expect the devs will react the same way.

camping contributes to the victory, because humans make credit easier, while the aliens lose veo points, this is not much fun.
I think is interesting the idea to set up small bases around the map, but not the idea of fortresses(nob camping, no reload guns, infinite ammo without reloading, great convenience.

in games, fun over realism, but, without a small realism, the fun gets lost a little, Basically, the gameplay and realism must go hand in hand, be weighed on a scale.

and, urban terror and wolfet, are not the most realistic games(wolfet = 4 or 5 headshots to kill, smg are the best weapons in the game(and have an incredible precision), lmg fires plasma shots...) and urban terror, no coments, go to urbterror oficial site (fun over realism).

the game more realistic I know are A.R.M.A,BF project reality and red orchestra, for old machines = H&D and q2 dday normandy, and several semi realistic spread out there(like true combat elite, hl2 insurgency..)

and because of my aim is not perfect, I think just adding a little spread in guns.

the new 1.2 models look good? what is the problem of having an reload animation for the lgun?


about lgun spread,is more like it. se the AR2 video(default model)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRKuMJXjWto

other video(custom model), go to 0:23 and, 0:33 = fast reload, 0:53 = long distance shots)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgHAwTNv5F4


the gun still has a good accuracy, but it would be unrealistic.

Quote
Now, only game where real life rules should apply in game, it should only be Operation Flashpoint... And this forum is only for Tremulous.
no game is 100% realistic, however, a bit of realism in any game is welcome.

tremulous has a little realism, like the stamina bar. however, some elements of realism can be added without compromising the arcade gameplay.(COD aim would not be good in tremulous, but a bit of zoom for some weapons(like rifle or some more for lgun, and very small for blaster) could be interesting.)

Qrntz

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #197 on: July 23, 2011, 07:10:14 pm »
And now zooming for a machine gun (submachine gun, laser packet dispenser, whatever) without a scope contributes to realism the same degree a stamina bar does.
Keep going.


You make up Qrntz, u always angry, just calmdown. :police:
I am stupid idiot who dares to open mouth and start debating

kharnov

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #198 on: July 23, 2011, 07:11:53 pm »
and because of my aim is not perfect, I think just adding a little spread in guns.

That's about the worst reason I've heard for anything balance-related.


wolfbr

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #200 on: July 24, 2011, 06:11:22 pm »
And now zooming for a machine gun (submachine gun, laser packet dispenser, whatever) without a scope contributes to realism the same degree a stamina bar does.
Keep going.


have you seen the new models of 1.2?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgYA4UxtY-A
ok, its more like holosights, but, tremulous is happening in the future, so this type of sight would have zoom ; ).
yes, many arcades games the weapons have zoom, in some severs, lgun have a small zoom.

I do not think all the guns accuracy of zoom, but it would be interesting to some guns have zoom.

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me to
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ULTRA Random ViruS

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #201 on: July 24, 2011, 11:02:58 pm »
ok, its more like holosights, but, tremulous is happening in the future, so this type of sight would have zoom ; ).
yes, many arcades games the weapons have zoom, in some severs, (:|:)lgun have a small zoom.

(=|=)I do not think all the guns accuracy of zoom, but it would be interesting to some guns have zoom.
I don't quiet know how to use holosights without a another sight on the other sight of a gun (the holosight is the only sight thing you've got, on a normal gun such as a pistol, you have a 'mini trench' at the back and a 'bump' at the front)

Anyways:
(:|:): Only korx has a lasgun with small zoom. And mods of korx, or korx-related such as some versions of TremX. [which it originated from]
(=|=): I agree. At least have the normal weapons a minor zoom less than what you see on korx's lasun though. Like 1.5/1.2x? [although it would be practically pointless].

Also, isn't tremulous the sort of game where you actually don't need all these sights? I mean, when i use MD, when other MD pros use MD, they almost/hardly ever use the zoom in combat. It's not like you're  going to scope-shoot cheat. There's no point.

RAKninja-Decepticon

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #202 on: July 24, 2011, 11:34:52 pm »
I mean, when i use MD, when other MD pros use MD...


HAR!  HAR!  HAR!
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wolfbr

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #203 on: July 26, 2011, 07:42:27 pm »
Quote
I don't quiet know how to use holosights without a another sight on the other sight of a gun (the holosight is the only sight thing you've got, on a normal gun such as a pistol, you have a 'mini trench' at the back and a 'bump' at the front)

understand, but the models are still betas, maybe this is arranged in the future

Quote
Anyways:
(:|:): Only korx has a lasgun with small zoom. And mods of korx, or korx-related such as some versions of TremX. [which it originated from]
(=|=): I agree. At least have the normal weapons a minor zoom less than what you see on korx's lasun though. Like 1.5/1.2x? [although it would be practically pointless].
zoom should vary with the accuracy and usefulness of the weapon,
like, zoom size- md>>lgun>blaster>rifle>prifle
-prifle is already a powerful weapon, so do not need much zoom
-blaster could also be as a small binoculars, not only a weapon of despair : P
-lgun have some good zom to make it more useful for long distances(like md's zoom from 1.1).
-md have a lot of zoom(like GGP), duh, its a sniper
-rifle, to support other players.

shotgun, flamer and psaw, obviously, do not need zoombecause they are short-range weapons.
and lucis, this gun is already very powerful(and its a short/medium range weapon, more useful as a support weapon(gpp)),.

Quote
Also, isn't tremulous the sort of game where you actually don't need all these sights? I mean, when i use MD, when other MD pros use MD, they almost/hardly ever use the zoom in combat. It's not like you're  going to scope-shoot cheat. There's no point.

nobody is forced to use zoom, if you think you need, use it. : )

TheLollingManv2

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #204 on: July 26, 2011, 07:43:02 pm »
gtfo

Plague Bringer

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #205 on: July 26, 2011, 11:00:54 pm »
Another case of wolfbr having ideas and not backing them up with anything other than "they are my ideas" or "if you don't like it don't use it".
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TheLollingManv2

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #206 on: July 26, 2011, 11:50:00 pm »
Another case of Plague Bringer making a very astute observation that nobody could have seen themselves. Tyvm Plague Bringer what would the Tremulous community do without you.

Plague Bringer

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #207 on: July 27, 2011, 12:20:41 am »
Another case of Plague Bringer making a very astute observation that nobody could have seen themselves. Tyvm Plague Bringer what would the Tremulous community do without you.
I see I've made a new enemy.
U R A Q T

c4

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #208 on: July 27, 2011, 12:28:43 am »
Or just found a troll, as the case may be.

hi vape bro.
eh, i prefer gregorian.net chat better than this. NO download and its LIVE!
 :basilisk: FTW![wiki]basilisk[/wiki]

Pazuzu

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Re: Gameplay Preview Phase 7 Results
« Reply #209 on: July 27, 2011, 12:32:37 am »
hi vape bro.
I would have guessed Iabz.

ok, can you give me the tool thingy app that can code?