[Archive] The Unvanquished OLD PROPOSAL

[player1]

@All: Multiple edits made. Hope you like them. Let me know what you think. Alpha version somewhat finalized, and ready for further critique. Thanks to all who commented.

Cheers!

Newest idea: Models/Avatars based on Japanese Demonlogy/Mythology/Obake.

Priestess: Cherubim-Kitsune (Medic & Repair)
Nymph: Kraken-Faery (Scout or Spy)
Evolute: Oni-Tanuki (Soldier)
Hierophant: Shojo-Master (Heavy)
Merfolk: Kappa-Yokai (Pyro or Sniper-Demoman)
Artificer: Wolfhawk-Tengu (Engineer)

TremKraftHammer4KFinalFantasyFortress!

[player1]

Priestess - Fox-head-masked, Angel-winged figure of a Warrior-Nun, decorated in Fox and Eagle designs (Egyptian/Northwest Coast/Stargate headdress)

Nymph - Dragonfly-winged Water Sprite, decorated in Squid, Octopus, Crawfish, Crab, and Lobster designs (Barsoomian battle-harness/Maza of the Moon)

Evolute - Giant red-faced demon with club evolves into tiny racoon-dog war-wizard

Hierophant - Orangutan/Sasquatch/Yeti/Bigfoot/Shojo Wild-woman of the Woods with wooden Noh mask of smiling drunken orangutan-monk-face

Merfolk - Alligator/Snapping-Turtle Kappa-Merman or Monster-Yokai Merman-Seahorse Centaur with webbed talons instead of hooves, and sharkskin hide

Artificer - Dog-head-masked, Falcon-winged figure of a Noh helper or Ninja trooper, decorated in Wolf and Hawk designs (Egyptian/Northwest Coast/Stargate headress)

Animanga Ghost-Ninja Space-Pirate Obake-Daemonfolk, FTMWB!!!

[The Me]

Medic/Spy - Priestess (low damage short-ranged, and medium to heavy-damage melee, low armor value)
Spy/Scout - Nymph (Naiad: melee - spy, Nereid: melee medium w/short-ranged - scout)
Scout/Soldier - Evolute (advances from light to medium, mix of melee and medium to long-ranged)
Soldier/Heavy - Merfolk (Merman: melee light - soldier, Centaur: melee heavy w/short-ranged - heavy)
Scout/Heavy - Drunk Monk (no armor; rapidly increasing melee damage ability)
Engineer - Artificer (low to medium damage short-ranged, light to medium damage melee, low armor value)

Medic/Spy - Priestess (low damage short-ranged, and medium to heavy low-damage melee, low armor value)
Spy/Scout - Nymph (Naiad: melee - spy, Nereid: melee medium w/short-ranged - scout)
Scout/Soldier - Evolute (advances from light to medium, mix of melee and medium to long-ranged)
Soldier/Heavy - Merfolk (Merman: melee light - soldier, Centaur: melee heavy w/short-ranged - heavy)
Scout/Heavy - Drunk Monk (no armor; rapidly increasing melee damage ability  melee heavy w/short-ranged - heavy)
Engineer - Artificer (low to medium damage short-ranged, light to medium damage melee, low armor value)

Priestess: Shes a medic, thats all she should be. No need to give her strong melee, let another class do thst while she heals them. Like a builder, if a team has too many healers, then they wont have enough attackers and will lose.

Nymph: I think the invis ability would fit more with the Nymph. Have her unable to attack with invis. Kind of the ultimate flank weapon, sneak around humans and un invis then go attack. have her un invis when she takes damage or gets bumped?

Evolute: Make him the coward, weak sniper type who sits back and helps his teammates by picking off a few from afar while they are up close doing damage.

Merfolk: Im thinking medium ranged medium health, all around fighter (assault rifle type)

Drunk Monk: Heavy, rant style fighter, loads of health but short ranged

or, looks like you wanted it opposite for the last two, either way.

[player1]

Thanks again for the input. Will review and revise. Cheers!



P.S. What do you think of the new Avatar Model ideas (Asian demons and Greek fairies)?

P.P.S.
tentative equivalencies, sort of:
Priestess - Adv. Basi/Las Gun
Nymph - Dretch/Basi/Rifle/Shotgun
Evolute - Mara/Adv. Mara/Pulserifle
Drunk Monk - Tyrant/Luci
Merfolk - Dragoon/Adv. Goon/Chaingun/Flamer
Artificer - Adv. Granger/Blaster

[Hendrich]

About the name for the drunk monk...it just doesn't seem to be as cool as those other names, or atleast intimidating. Like for example, the Tyrant. When you're thinking that, you'll be like "OH NOES, BETTER NOT BLOB WITH THIS GUY!1111!" or the Lucifier, you'll be like "AWESOME, SOUNDS LIKE A KICK-ASS WEAPON!1!1!". A drunk monk more seems a bit dumb, compared to the other classes like Merfolk or Nymph. How would you like it if you said "Watch out guys, here comes a drunk monk, nooooo!". 

[player1]

@Hendrich: Duly noted. Class name changed to Hierophant. Thanks!

P.S. Drunk Monk is a martial arts fighting style, jic you've never come across the term before.

@The Me: Priestess considerably and extensively nerfed. Also, please note: neither the Priestess nor the Artificer can Heal during Stage 2, only Repair. All Unvanquished players will have to return to Base, to use the Apothecary, and refill their Phials, to Heal (unless they unzip a Phial in the field) during Stage 2, as the team has no Healers at all at this time. I made the Bowglove Poison a Purchasable Upgrade, but not until Stage 2; I considerably weakened the Pirate-Sword, as well as the Psychic Sai; and I made the Pirate-Sword progressively more expensive, as it is progressively more dangerous and damaging. So although it has increased slash range and pretty sizable damage by Stage 3, it costs as much as a Tyrant, and is only probably as dangerous as a Mara. See what you think.

I've also considerably weakened the other classes as well, and made the Merfolk pretty much either a weak melee fighter (Merman) or a medium-ranged, medium-armored, medium-damage unit with a cavalry-style attack (Centaur), but no real melee weapon, only a short-distance ranged attack.

I gave the Hierophant a pretty weak, pretty slow, very-short-range default weapon: Throwing Stars. I also nerfed a lot of the Hierophant's attacks. Remember that the default control scheme will not allow access to the Throwing Stars (Blaster) and the Punch and Kick Combos (Rifle) at the same time. The player will have to prev/next_weapon to toggle between them, and when he has Punch/Kick selected, the Punches will be like Alien Slash and Chomp attacks (fairly immediate), while the Kicks will be more like Pounce and Trample (it happens when you let go). Punches will be left mouse, and Kicks will be right mouse, kinda like a Goon or Rant. Remember that the Hierophant has no Armor whatsoever, nor does the Nymph, and neither can carry additional weapons beyond their default weapons.

A similar control situation happens with the Evolute, except that there is one Default Weapon, and only one Rifle-Slot Weapon, at any one time, for any one player. So again, the player must prev/next_weapon to toggle between the Default Weapon, and the Stage-and-Bounty-Based Weapon. This should slow down any transition between melee and ranged attacks, and, as you say, force players to work in groups. Thanks again for pointing that out.

I hope it is getting better. Thanks for your continued constructive critique. Cheers!

Note: will move Cloaked/Camo/Inviso from Priestess to Nymph, as suggested, thanks again. Very much appreciated. You will be added to the credits, for sure!



Newest Version:
Priestess - Medic
Nymph - Spy/Scout
Evolute - Soldier
Hierophant - Heavy
Merfolk - Pyro/Sniper-Demoman (need to make weapons more explosive and less poisonous)
Artificer - Engineer

Edits done, see page one.

[The Me]

Merfolk - Pyro/Sniper-Demoman

lols what? Those have to be the three most different styles of fighting. Pleaseexplain how you are planning on mixing them into one unit.

Also, So they aren't going to have healers at S1 but not S2 (why?)? What about S3? So what will the preistess do at the stages w/o healing?

I think the Hierophant should have more health (500 maybe) and weaker attacks that have some affect to them, like a .5 second stun for instance. Bassically, aided by your visual description, I am picturing a ape like creature running down the hall, being unloaded into then mauling a people a few times until they die.

[player1]

Merfolk - Pyro/Sniper-Demoman

lols what? Those have to be the three most different styles of fighting. Pleaseexplain how you are planning on mixing them into one unit.

Merman=Pyroman; Centaur, S1/S2=Sniper; Centaur, S3=Demoman

Also, So they aren't going to have healers at S1 but not S2 (why?)? What about S3? So what will the preistess do at the stages w/o healing?

I'm thinking of making it so only the Priestess and the Artificer can carry and use Phials (Health-Packs). During Stage 2, when neither can Heal others, and all players must return to Base to use the Apothecary, Evolutes and Centaurs have ranged weapons, to protect the Base more, and the Priestess and Artificer have Repair ability, so they can keep the base in good working order. So she helps to repair during the one Stage where she can't help to Heal. I may change that, but she can still perform flying attacks and defend against Jetpacks.

I think the Hierophant should have more health (500 maybe) and weaker attacks that have some affect to them, like a .5 second stun for instance. Bassically, aided by your visual description, I am picturing a ape like creature running down the hall, being unloaded into then mauling a people a few times until they die.

Buffed the Hierophant health and re-nerfed Hierophant attacks. Let me know how you like the new values. I really like the idea of Stun or some other effect from the Hierophant attacks. I want them to be like special combo moves from Street Fighter/Mortal Combat/et al, where in addition to damage, there is a time-lapse before the attacked foe can recover and counter. I hadn't quite gotten there yet. Awesome. That will be next. You get co-creator credit for sure! Also, you have a good visual sense, as that is exactly what I was trying to convey, an apeman who fights like a drunken monk. Maybe some leg sweeps and kip-ups are going to be needed. Thanks again, quite useful input and ideas.

[The Me]

Also, So they aren't going to have healers at S1 but not S2 (why?)? What about S3? So what will the preistess do at the stages w/o healing?

I'm thinking of making it so only the Priestess and the Artificer can carry and use Phials (Health-Packs). During Stage 2, when neither can Heal others, and all players must return to Base to use the Apothecary, Evolutes and Centaurs have ranged weapons, to protect the Base more, and the Priestess and Artificer have Repair ability, so they can keep the base in good working order. So she helps to repair during the one Stage where she can't help to Heal. I may change that, but she can still perform flying attacks and defend against Jetpacks.

Im still a bit confused as to the logic behind why you are planning to take away S2 healing. Is it a method to promote base maintenance?
    Also, I still think the Priestess should be a healing only class, no need to have people upset in game because their Priestesses are controlled by players who are using them only for the sole purpose of flying around and pestering the humans and aliens. Maybe that is more of a Nymph, the spy, thing, to fly up and swat down those pesky jettards and as a Scout, fly around the map...
     To prevent this from nerfing the Priestess to much, clip her wings, and in place give her aiding abilities. Unfortunately, I, being as tired as I am right now, can only think of one to suggest: A large fairly large bubble (three rants wide maybe) which blocks all projectiles from entering or exiting but allows players to pass in and out freely (bubble could cut when Priestess is attacked?). Stuff like that which allows her to aid her little group of teammates in more ways then just supplying them with health.
    As for Bounties, she could earn these over time like the builders do, this would give her team incentive to guard her, because by earning bounties, she would be able to aid them in with more abilities.
     This would add another sub-objective to the game. For the Unvanquished, protect the Priestess, for the enemies, kill the Priestess. More tactics are always good .

Time to sleep.
Oh but one last thing, If you have ranged weapons, and a Centaur "sniper" then why would you need a flying class to take out jettards?

[mooseberry]

I also fail to see the logic in making gaining stages un-desirable. Overall, though seems like good ideas.

[player1]

Thanks, and thanks.

Concerns duly noted. Will re-think Priestess, add some ability like Squadshield (protects Teammates within nearby distance of Priestess, say thirty "feet", with mild Armor Value boost, as needed, sort of a magical Light Armor, which can be damaged, but regenerates over time, as long as player is still in proximity to Priestess) for S2, keep Healing ability for all three Stages, cut Heal ability from Artificer, and re-address Stage Advancement for Evolute. And, you're right, that makes it so you have to protect the Healer/Shield-Mistress, and the other team will try to get rid of her. Maybe the Staff of Rebirth will either be default, or a nerfed Healing power will be default, and the Staff greatly increases the range and rate of Healing (she can point it at a Teammate, and they begin to heal as if they just unzipped three Phials - zip-pause-wave of healing; zip-pause-wave of healing; zip-pause-wave of healing). Maybe one Phial at S1, two at S2, three at S3. And the Healings per time will increase, from one every 30s to one every 10s. If so, we will definitely take away both her Pirate-sword and the Psychic Sai. I also like the Susan Storm Shieldbubble idea. Maybe it will block all hitscan weapons from being shot out or in, but slower-moving projectiles and player avatars will remain unaffected (possible radius, 10 "feet" or about 20' dia.). I guess you are right about Bounty: the Priestess will get the survival Bounty, just like the Artificer. Priestess flight will be slowed, more like Artificer, and Nymph will be sped up, more in keeping with her run-and-gun style of play. Again, thanks. Great insights. Thanks for sticking around and continuing to give feedback.

Edits to follow. Thanks again.

[The Me]

Evolute - Soldier (giant demon with club becomes tiny raccoon-dog war-wizard)

We already have one big brute, Hierophant, wouldn't this be a little repetitive? Also, it doesn't quite fit in with the whole "Soldier" theme of the Evolute.

[player1]

@The Me: Good evening, and welcome to The Unvanquished dot alpha_nerf. Thanks again for your continued support. As you can see, I've fallen behind in my updates, as I took the time to continue the Tremulous fanfic a bit yesterday. The Priestess re-nerf is in the works, and should happen tomorrow. As to the current Soldier and Heavy Classes, my intent was something along the lines of the following (remembering that the visual theme is Japanese folktales meets Greek mythology, but in space, in the future):

Evolute: Starts out a big brute. End up a little warrior-mage. Evolves, alchemically-speaking, from a weak, yet huge, physicality, to a meek, yet powerful form, better able to focus the majickal properties of his weapons. Only the default form of the soldier is this oafish ogre, as soon as the player advances, the avatar becomes the trickster raccoon-dog, who then ascends a truncated and expedited Ladder of Initiation in a Course in War-Wizardry. The Youth of General Yoda, if you follow me.

Hierophant: Starts out as a slightly above-average naked Human, and advances to become an unarmored (and practically unarmed) one-man killing machine. Basically Grasshopper Kaine, fighting the Tyrants Shaolin-style, with advanced abilities, and console-kickboxer-type combo attacks.

They are either demons, or some sort of future offshoot of Humanity, who has modified itself in a variety of ways to suit its new living conditions among the stars. And thus they either were influenced by demonology/mythology/folklore when radically redesigning their new forms, or the Humans who tried to describe their freakish mutations fell back on old, unused terms, as latent in the language as Marauder, Dragoon, Dretch, and Basilisk. That's not actually what these things are, they're the names of other things used by Humans to describe absolutely new things.

Both of these Fighter classes (although one could be considered an Attack class, and the other, a Defense class) would be inspired by Asian themes, then, and both would be about character development, but one is a Zorro character (he carries a sword) while one is practically a Batman character (batarangs, anyone?). Let me know what you think. I always thought the slowest but most interesting way to play Deus Ex was with the cop rules of engagement, SWAT-style (you have to pull the baton, unless under lethal threat).

P.S. The TF-style classes will, eventually, be superseded by the actual gameplay needs of 3-Way Tremulous, but they are semi-useful now, to organize this discussion. I believe will may shed them or distort them to work for this application, and I am in no way limited by them, as you have seen. Thanks for keeping me honest.

More edits to follow, but right now I am listening to Manowar, and then I am going to go read a really good book. Almost time for cocoa, around these parts. Thanks again. Marshmallows?

[The Me]

So, in your P.S., you say you are going to need to change the class-based style to fit it into Tremulous, what exactly do you mean, what would need to be changed?

[Hendrich]

Evolute: Starts out a big brute. End up a little warrior-mage.

That idea sounds cool, in the beginning of the game I could start out as some sort of offensive-based brute so my weak team wouldn't get squashed so badly, then just like history itself,  I evolve into a mage that turns from being offense to the defensive. Just remember that the starting brute shouldn't be crazy strong like the Tyrant, just atleast stronger then what you expect in S1, which should't be much.

Hierophant: Starts out as a slightly above-average naked Human, and advances to become an unarmored (and practically unarmed) one-man killing machine.

First, naked human? If so, censor, umm, ahhh, you get the idea. Or you can change it a bit, like make it sort of half human/half cyborg so atleast theres a reason why those parts aren't there, and you could get a reason to make it look cooler. Or as a cyborg, as it evolves it becomes more cyborg then human, and finally it loses its humanity but in return it literally becomes a killing machine. Or ditch the naked human idea altogether, its your "mod".

And the evolution of each class, how does that work? Does those characters evolves every stage into something different?

Offtopic:

Deus Ex

Btw, love that game. I got it for 4 bucks with Tomb raider, Cammondos 3 and Theif 2, which was the best deal in my life. You should play other RPG/FPS games, Like system Shock 1/2, BioShock, Morrowind/Oblivion or Vortex. 

[player1]

So, in your P.S., you say you are going to need to change the class-based style to fit it into Tremulous, what exactly do you mean, what would need to be changed?

I just mean that the class types (Medic, Spy, etc.) were borrowed from TeamFortress, and as such will be a bit arbitrary when applied to Tremulous. I will still keep the Unvanquished class names (Priestess, Nymph, etc.) and we will still keep the class-based gameplay. The ambiguous distinctions borrowed from TF (Scout, Heavy, etc.) will eventually disappear, as they are not used elsewhere in the Tremulous manual. So everything we are currently working on will stay, we will just lose the additional TF-style qualifiers (Soldier, Demoman, etc.). Those labels are just for discussion purposes only.

Sorry if I was too vague before. I'll try to get to those edits tonight, but I can't promise anything.

Thanks again for helping to craft this Mod [Concept].

[The Me]

Oh, yea, I wasn't expecting that label to be in the final version either. The "Team Fortress classes" work, and these classes did not come from that game only. Almost every class based game from ETQW to TF2 has those classes. Those are the usually the main combat units in a battle. The Scout, Spy, medic, Sniper, Engineer, Heavy, Demolition, and Soldier. Team Fortress simply took these classes and, named them for what they are. In ETQW the classes are Soldier, Medic, Covert ops, Field ops, and Engineer. essentially the Covert ops is a Sniper, and the Field ops is a Scout and spy. The vehicles work as the Heavy and Demolition. In BF the classes are Spec Ops, Sniper, Assault, Support, Engineer, Medic and Anti-Tank. Spec Ops is the Spy. Assault is Soldier. Support is Heavy weapons while the vehicles are the Heavy armor. Support also acts as a Medic. Anti-Tank is Demolition. Many other games follow these basic guidelines for classes because they are naturally the classes necessary in an army. Thus, no need to worry about ideas being "stolen" from other games, for very likely those ideas were "inspired" by a game created before that one.

[player1]

Evolute: Starts out a big brute. End up a little warrior-mage.

That idea sounds cool, in the beginning of the game I could start out as some sort of offensive-based brute so my weak team wouldn't get squashed so badly, then just like history itself,  I evolve into a mage that turns from being offense to the defensive. Just remember that the starting brute shouldn't be crazy strong like the Tyrant, just atleast stronger then what you expect in S1, which should't be much.

Yes, the default avatar will be slow, as well as having weak attacks, although it will have buffed health, and a big model (and bbox). I'll post some image links later, so you can see what I mean. Glad you like the idea.

Hierophant: Starts out as a slightly above-average naked Human, and advances to become an unarmored (and practically unarmed) one-man killing machine.

First, naked human? If so, censor, umm, ahhh, you get the idea. Or you can change it a bit, like make it sort of half human/half cyborg so atleast theres a reason why those parts aren't there, and you could get a reason to make it look cooler. Or as a cyborg, as it evolves it becomes more cyborg then human, and finally it loses its humanity but in return it literally becomes a killing machine. Or ditch the naked human idea altogether, its your "mod".

Sorry, I meant "naked" as in the Tremulous sense of the word: players use it to mean "un-armored and helmet-less", as in "nekkid humiez". "Invisible Boy, if you want to continue to fight crime today, you're going to have to put some pants on." The avatar is a monk (or possibly a nun, considering the current use of the term shojo), wearing a wooden witch-doctor/shaman/theater mask, who looks like a Wendigo. A Sasquatch wearing the mask of a monk, possibly even the robes of a monk (or nun). Not "naked" in any prurient sense, sorry. Maybe wearing some sort of exotic battle-harness, in keeping with the starcraft/warhammer inspiration of the "mod".

And the evolution of each class, how does that work? Does those characters evolves every stage into something different?

This will require a future post to explain in detail, but basically, it's still Tremulous, so just push 'Q' and/or just walk up to a structure, and stuff will happen. After you kill a few dretches, then when you push 'Q' you'll get some options (especially if you are standing next to a structure). As simple as possible, players can either buy stuff or evolve their form.

Offtopic:

Deus Ex

<3 DX

QFT!

Topic: ON - Thanks. Edits to follow. Take care.

[player1]

discussion of classes

Right on, I agree. You, sir, are correct. My personal favorite version is the 4-person version for fireteams: Point (Scout), Lead/Grenadier (Demoman), Squad-weapon (Heavy), and Assist/Sweep (Soldier). It's the current military standard, I believe. But with six Alien classes, I wanted six Unvanquished classes. Thanks for your help in tweaking them. Edits to follow.

Cheers!

[Chess guy]

I see...........MARALISK!!! Do we already have some concept art

[The Me]

I see...........MARALISK!!! Do we already have some concept art

Meet Chessguy, he enjoys creating making 2D images for various things. I pmed him with this post's link and a brief description and asked him to pm me back if he was willing to create some concept art. I hope that post is equivalent to a pm.

[Hendrich]

Hey, Chess, funny how you yourself being a artist mentioned "concept art" in this particular thread. It would be great if.... 

[player1]

I see...........MARALISK!!! Do we already have some concept art

Meet Chessguy, he enjoys creating making 2D images for various things. I pmed him with this post's link and a brief description and asked him to pm me back if he was willing to create some concept art. I hope that post is equivalent to a pm.

@Chess Guy:
Hi.
Actually, I was kind of hoping you'd show up. Expect a PM, but suffice to say, if you're interested, I'm interested. PM me, or I'll PM you, or both, or something. I will post a bunch of art links here or in another thread over at the "Art" section. Yes, Maralisk^FOSS. I figured that way I already had some community involvement and support. Also, I was wondering if you had been reading that fanfic thread I started. (see siglink)

@The Me/Hendrich: Thank you for your continued support, and EDITS semi-completed! Gentlemen, I give to you: [Concept]The Unvanquished.alpha_1! Please peruse, critique, discuss, ruminate. This has been this evening's update. Image links and personal messages to follow somewhat later. Control out.

[player1]

Slightly varied Nymph - changed Transfer attributes to Latent. Priestess update largely completed. Artificer somewhat buffed. Merfolk, Evolute and Hierophant largely finalized.

Art links to follow; possibly tomorrow, at earliest. Thoughtful critiques welcomed.

Cheers!

[The Me]

Slightly varied Nymph - changed Transfer attributes to Latent. Priestess update largely completed. Artificer somewhat buffed. Merfolk, Evolute and Hierophant largely finalized.

Good job! It's looking great

[mooseberry]

If you get the chance you should probably compile all information (on the various classes, structures, etc) in one post, (probably a new post, and the first one) just so that people who don't want to read every pixel in this thread can a better idea of what is going on. 

[player1]

Yeah, general thread cleanup and reposting of pertinent information, plus a full supply of image links (for those not familiar with the creatures of Asian folklore or the mythological beings of ancient Greece) will pretty much comprise the beta version of this Mod[Concept]. I'm also utilizing quite a bit of it in the Saga of the Merfolk Centaur-Kings (as was my original intent). Thanks for the advice. Had a chance to check out the classes and structures yet? A description of gameplay will also follow. I hope you like it.

Cheers!

[Chess guy]

Perhaps organizing a website for this would be effective? I could put together a .tk (no more ads) site with all of this info. We could also post the concept art there?

[Chess guy]

I made my first concept art:



I'm still learning things (btw if you're reading this Stannum, I used a square brush  )

Anyways, I also made a site to organize all of this:

http://theunvanquished.tk/

It's just the same stuff as here just copied/pasted over there in a more organized manner...I'm not done with it yet though

[Archangel]

@chessdude

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gg @ linking an image that requires a login