Author Topic: [Archive] The Unvanquished OLD PROPOSAL  (Read 243438 times)

Chess guy

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #90 on: January 05, 2009, 10:12:57 pm »

@chessguy I get how they spawn but I also really don't care about how. What I was saying is wouldn't that spawn structure have to be pretty big to allow the bigger players to fit through the gaps between the spikes? I was suggesting you make it thave only two or three spikes so that the gap all be bigger without the structure having to be bigger.


Agreed. I think that would fit with the Idol better too (sry but I'm too busy to go in and change the art :P )
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Futilrevenge

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #91 on: January 19, 2009, 07:29:54 pm »
looking at this project, i would be happy to make some of the structure models, but i cant do animations. If you want my help, just ask!  :)
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player1

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #92 on: January 19, 2009, 07:58:17 pm »
Awesome!

I will contact you via PM.

Thanks for your interest in this idea.

Futilrevenge

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #93 on: January 19, 2009, 08:22:48 pm »
im working on the idol right now, shouldnt be to hard!
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player1

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #94 on: January 20, 2009, 12:47:00 am »
Right on. I will PM Chess Guy, and see if he is willing  to finish envisioning the structures. Welcome. And thanks.

The Me

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #95 on: January 20, 2009, 06:57:39 am »
looking at this project, i would be happy to make some of the structure models, but i cant do animations. If you want my help, just ask!  :)
Woohoo! 3D modeler! Thanks for joining the ever growing dev team :D We really appreciate it, can't wait to see your work!

Hendrich

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #96 on: January 20, 2009, 09:16:25 pm »
Sweet, it looks like the mod has a chance to jump out of paper and get on to the actual game, and thats a 1/1000 chance to happen. I wish you guys luck, can't wait for the sculpting to finish.

Roanoke

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #97 on: January 21, 2009, 12:34:22 am »
I agree with heindrich. This appears to be the first concept to come this close to fruition, with the possible exception of the OTSP.

The Me

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #98 on: January 21, 2009, 01:18:19 am »
I agree with heindrich. This appears to be the first concept to come this close to fruition, with the possible exception of the OTSP.
Thats because we have player1 running it and the coding power of Amanieu backing him up :D

Amanieu

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #99 on: January 21, 2009, 08:43:30 am »
Actually I probably won't have time to work on this until next summer, because I'm in my senior year of high school and school is taking up most of my free time.

I can't do much without at least some placeholder models anyways.
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The Me

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #100 on: January 22, 2009, 11:08:23 pm »
I'll start working on the new triangular atcs if i can get a .map version of the current atcs.

Roanoke

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #101 on: January 22, 2009, 11:17:32 pm »
I'll start working on the new triangular atcs if i can get a .map version of the current atcs.
Did you check SVN?

The Me

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #102 on: January 22, 2009, 11:21:21 pm »
I'll start working on the new triangular atcs if i can get a .map version of the current atcs.
Did you check SVN?
SVN?

Hendrich

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #103 on: January 23, 2009, 02:16:48 am »
I'll start working on the new triangular atcs if i can get a .map version of the current atcs.
Did you check SVN?
SVN?
.....

Your serious? :P

player1

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #104 on: January 23, 2009, 02:38:51 am »
Actually, there needs to be a sticky around this site that explains the common terms and acronyms. Even if he googled it, and figured out that it meant Software Version Number, he'd still be stuck, and not realize what it means in Tremulous usage. Ditto such terms as: backport, UI, QVM, pk3, etc. For the people who are not either Quake people, mad googlers, or tech geeks.

On Topic: I would personally like to see Chess Guy work with Futilrevenge to produce 2d renderings that can be made into 3d models. When an animator comes on board, we will be more ready to take up some of Amanieu's time, which is precious and valuable, since he has the skills that we don't. I would further be very intersted in having The Me, Roanoke, and Hendrich help out in maintaining Chess Guy's site, and in reworking the current information, to get it to a beta state. Lastly, I would be very interested in working with Urscumug and the damage tables he's generated. If we can convince him to post it in a sister thread in this sub-forum, I believe a combination of the two approaches will be quite beneficial.

As always, I would like to thank all interested parties for their support. I have recently begun to concentrate more seriously on my writing, and will not have quite as much time to devote to this, but I think that it is progressing at a slow and steady rate, and will someday possibly even get made.

Futilrevenge and Chess Guy: I owe you both a PM. The Me, Hendrich and Roanoke: This mod belongs to you guys, the people who have helped to critique and create it, as much or more than it belongs to me. Working together, with patience, I'm sure that you can see this through to fruition.

I will stop back quite regularly. If either the artist, the modeller, or any of you need any help or info, do not hesitate to PM me.

@Amanieu: Thanks for challenging me to do this. It has been quite enlightening. My three main reasons for posting it were:
1) Your expressed interest in seeing a serious proposal for a Third Race
2) To show those who said it would be "easy" that it would require a great deal of planning, even to reach this early stage
3) To provide more background material for my tremulous fanfic

All three of these things have been accomplished. I continue to have high hopes that this mod will someday get made. I also continue to have massive patience regarding the pace at which such progress can be achieved.

Cheers!

Roanoke

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #105 on: January 23, 2009, 03:39:41 am »
Actually, there needs to be a sticky around this site that explains the common terms and acronyms. Even if he googled it, and figured out that it meant Software Version Number, he'd still be stuck, and not realize what it means in Tremulous usage. Ditto such terms as: backport, UI, QVM, pk3, etc. For the people who are not either Quake people, mad googlers, or tech geeks.
Me? I know what it means. I thought maybe there are .map files in the svn, if anywhere.

I would further be very intersted in having The Me, Roanoke, and Hendrich help out in maintaining Chess Guy's site, and in reworking the current information, to get it to a beta state.
Sure. Just gimme a way to edit it and explain what to change.

Amanieu

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #106 on: January 23, 2009, 05:51:26 am »
If someone is going to make models I would like to have a chat with them first. This is because TremFusion will soon have support for md5 models which support skeletal animations and cooler weapon animations.
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Roanoke

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #107 on: January 23, 2009, 03:34:35 pm »
Why not make this class mana based: They can cast different spells at different speeds and reload times depending on their class. Different spells do different things and reach their target differently (there could be a healing spell, a simple spell that fires rapidly and travels hitscan, and a spell that does high damage but moves slowly and takes a lot of mana and has a slow reload) but the catch is that each class has a certain amount of mana. If you don't have enough mana to cast a spell, then you can't cast it. Mana regenerates slowly, but you are given full mana when standing on this class' medistation or whatever it's called.

Urcscumug

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #108 on: January 23, 2009, 03:58:36 pm »
SVN stands for Subversion. It's a version control system which the Trem devs (and many devs everywhere) use to keep track of file changes. Anybody can check out a copy of the latest versions from the Trem SVN and you can probably find the map files in there as well.

You'll probably need a SVN client to do more advanced stuff but you can simply go download a single file if you need to. Perhaps someone can provide a link.
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gimhael

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #109 on: January 23, 2009, 05:21:21 pm »
Tremulous SVN can be browsed online at http://svn.icculus.org/tremulous/trunk/, but it does not contain any maps.

If you want to do more than look at some individual files, I'd recommend a proper SVN client, the standard client on Windows is TortoiseSVN, Linux users probably use the commandline svn or any of the IDEs that have subversion support integrated.

player1

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #110 on: January 24, 2009, 02:01:22 am »
I thank you all for your input, and urge Roanoke, The Me, Hendrich, Urscumug and other interested correspondents to PM both Chess Guy and Futilrevenge, to discuss putting together a preliminary team - a Concept Review Panel, to continue to discuss and develop this idea, and to provide support for mapping, modeling, and concept art.

I will be somewhat inactive in regards to this thread during this re-review process. I believe you all have shown great enthusiasm and insight into the project, and would like to see it undergo a re-fashioning, while absorbing and assimilating some of these new ideas. Please do your best to simplify and streamline the concept, so that we can provide the artists, modelers, mappers and coders with a well-thought-out, stripped-down version of this mod, which can be easily implemented within a reasonable time-frame.

Cheers!

Also, the Aliens are arthrosaurs (segmented reptilian insects) and the Humans are z-axis-printed clonal duplicants of Ked Ambrit, Saviour of the Brindipese.

Futilrevenge

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #111 on: January 24, 2009, 06:47:10 am »
Sorry for not posting for awhile, but my computer is acting wonky, kept shutting down and freezing up. I mainly fixed it except now when it overheats it loses space. This is probably because my computer is old, so I am looking at new computers. Ill post the pictures of the unfinished models tomarrow hopefully.  :)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 06:50:42 am by Futilrevenge »
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Amanieu

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #112 on: January 24, 2009, 07:33:06 am »
Sure. It would be nice if we had a wiki with proposed and accepted ideas, as well as a copy of player1's work at the begining of this thread.

I unfortunately won't be availible very often because I am currently away.
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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #113 on: January 24, 2009, 08:08:52 am »
I could setup a wiki if you want at some point or another.
:grenade:

Urcscumug

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #114 on: January 24, 2009, 11:47:49 am »
OK, so I'm copying over here the things I said on the "new race" thread that I believe may be useful.

topicALIENSHUMANS
Appearance
Raceinsects, arthropodesmammals, primates
Formsmultiple forms; each fully equipped and unchangeablesingle form; can combine armor, weapons and equipment
Health
Typelow-high, inverse to mobilityfixed, medium
Self-regenheavy use (auto, constant, fast)heavy use (once, manual, medkit)
Structurelight use (booster)heavy use (medistation)
Teammateslight use (rants)none (light proposed: ckit)
Shieldingnoneheavy use (lessen dmg; armor equip)
Mobility
Jumpheavy use (most forms)light use (exhaust stamina quick)
Speedheavy use (all; part of attack for some)medium use (can always run)
Flynonemedium use (need jet, limits speed)
Wall walkmedium use (lesser forms)none
Attacks
Distancelight use (adv goon, adv granger)heavy use (all)
Zonemedium use (mara zap, rant+goon mass)medium use (grenade, luci)
Meleeheavy use (all)light use (psaw)
Persistentpoison (all, with booster); time limited effect and capabilitynone
Ammolight use; self-regenCarries clips; free regen at structure
Detectionrange limited radar; enemies and enemy structs; permanent, built-inrange limited radar; enemy and friends; players and structs; only with helmet (s2)
Structures
Mainhigh HP, light self-defencehigh HP, light self-defence
Healingself, builder (manual)builder (manual)
Build arearange (creep), sentience points limitrange (power), build point limit
Spawnseggstelenodes
Proxim deftubes (essential)tesla (occasional)
Range defswarms (seldom)turrets (essential)
Trapping deftrapper (medium)none
Health regenbooster (optional)medistation (essential), armory
Evolutiondepends on overminddepends on armory, reactor
AmmoN/Aarmory, reactor, repeater
Protectionhovel (seldom)none
Blockingbarricades (often)none
Specialbooster (optional); gives limited poisondef computer (optional); improves turrets, required for teslas
repeater (optional); extends build range

BTW, in case anybody notices I put down both insects and arthropods for aliens; it's because they're a bit of both. Insects have 6 legs (3 pairs); arthropods have at least 4 pairs, sometimes 5 (so 8-10 legs), one or two of which are specialized in some way. Plus, arhtropods don't have antennas or wings. So you see that the Trem aliens fall somewhere in between, but somewhat closer to being arthropods.

Aliens have multiple forms, each of them being feature-complete and unchangeable. Humans have a single base form, but can don combinations of equipment/armor/weapons. What's a third way of doing things?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 12:34:51 pm by Urcscumug »
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Urcscumug

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #115 on: January 24, 2009, 11:55:00 am »
I could setup a wiki if you want at some point or another.
:grenade:

IMHO a wiki is best when people have to document already existing things, which are not subject to debate. Not so great for concept work.

Quote from: Amanieu
Actually I really like the unvanquished idea, because then there are 3 very distinc teams:
Aliens: Brute animal force
Humans: Science
Unvanquished: Magic

Seems very balanced to me.

As an idea, yes. Personally I'd have preferred a more SciFi approach (ex. mental powers as opposed to outright magic). Simply put, I like there to be an explanation.

I can't help feel that Trem is very closely related to such works as Heinlein's Starship Troopers (the book) or Foster's Commonwealth series. Trem as it is right now has a certain personality that I'd like to preserve, not dilute.

One particular thing bugs me about the Unvanquished is the ecclectic nature of their models. There's no unified feeling, it's like playing several completely different races. Aliens and humans don't have this drawback and I feel it's an important one.

Sorry if I'm going to come across as anal but I've already stated that an attempt at creating a 3rd race will have to be very solid thought out if it wants to succeed. So I'll dig at the proposals in this thread, rip them apart and put them back together if I feel it helps make a more solid mod. I hope that's alright with the rest of you who are interested in this.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 12:34:20 pm by Urcscumug »
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Urcscumug

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #116 on: January 24, 2009, 12:30:43 pm »
And a first (hopefully) constructive contribution. From examining the alien-human comparison chart I've thought of a possible outline for the 3rd race capabilities.

Aliens: rely heavily on melee attacks and combine this with superior mobility (speed, jumping and wallwalking), self-regeneration of health and their top HP varies across the range. The result is a race that needs to get close to enemies and thus has been given the health and mobility to pull it off.

Humans: rely heavily on distance attacks. They have a standardized form and moderated mobility: medium speed, their running and jumping is stamina-limited, no wallwalking, can fly but severely limited in certain ways. Their health regeneration is structure-bound and thus have been awarded certain forms of shielding to compensate. So it's a race that hits from a distance, which is a powerful ability, so in exchange their mobility and health have been limited, with some shielding thrown in to compensate for the health.

A complementing 3rd race could rely on area damage, a thing that is very weakly represented in aliens (mara zap, goon or rant in a crowd) and humans (nade, luci splash). They could have some melee and distance attacks but their main thing should be area damage. I believe some of the proposals for the Unvanquished already play on this.

For mobility, I propose something that neither aliens or humans have: flying. Granted, we can't have pure unlimited flying otherwise it would negatively impact most maps. So we could play on a form that's limited somehow but still impressive. Ideas: gliding; altitude-limited antigravity (or internal gas filled pouches); very high jumps.

Another issue that has been toyed with extensively is cloaking. It's something aliens have so some extent, if you consider dretch or basi wallwalking and hiding as such. But I'd like to propose outright invisibility. Of course, it would have to be limited. So not pure invisibility but very high transparency. Or mimetism/camouflage, which means borrowing the colors and patterns of the surroundings to blend in.

I'd have to think more about how dependent it should be on on standing still and whether it should be radar-stealthy as well.

I'm thinking of a scout-type that can wallwalk and glide from wall to wall, sort of like a semi-invisible flying squirrel (or lizard). It can sneak around, settle somewhere where nobody sees it and do one of two things: constantly spy and report back to his team, and/or do area health-sapping (with the health transferring back to itself or being channelled to his teammates and structures).

Third, there's shielding. Humans have shielding and it's essential to them, since their basic form has low health and limited mobility. We could consider adding stronger forms of shielding to the 3rd race, such as complete invulnerability or area shielding, but we'd have to obviously limit it for certain short periods or otherwise tie it to finite resources.

How about an Unvanquished form that allows all teammates in range (and itself) to take lower damage? It would have to be a slower/less mobile/bigger (bigger target) in order to compensate, and perhaps have higher than average health. It would definitely promote teamplay to a level that neither aliens or humans have seen so far.

Which is another issue I'd like to tackle: make it so that the Unvanquished abilities force you to play as a team. Teamsee is a very good idea in this respect. I think so is using one specific Unv form for shielding and entire attack force.

Finally, we'd have to carefully adjust the health levels we give the Unv. If a form has too powerful abilities it should have its health toned down.

It's about balancing. If you have perfect shielding, for example, you shouldn't be able to also attack at the same time it's activated. And it should expire in time, so it prevents full shield-camping. Would promote a style of play where you have to skillfuly alternate hit and parry.

Hope you can draw something useful from all this. I'd very much like to get some feedback to know if I should push on this line of reasoning or not (and if not, what should I adjust).

Oh, one more thing. The basic form of the Unv is VERY important. It's the thing you spawn as and the form you have to make your very first kills and get your points. It has to be very well thought out, and it has to match the dretch and naked-rifleman, both of which can be said are a type of art.
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Roanoke

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #117 on: January 24, 2009, 06:19:37 pm »
I agree on the team thing. I wanted to propose a third class for teams (alternative to fighting and building classes) that buffs people in it's area somehow. Anyway, area damage is an interesting idea. Even better would be area damage+magic :)
On another note, how about alliances? People on one team could call /callteamvote alliance (teamletter here) which would call a vote for both teams to become allied. When alliances are forged, that means that both teams rely on one mother structure (om/rc), defenses don't hurt them, and bases can be built with both kinds of structures. A human could spawn from an egg and a dretch could spawn from a telenode. Teamchat is visible by both allied teams. If ff is off, then players cannot damage allied teams.

The Me

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #118 on: January 24, 2009, 07:31:07 pm »
Urcscumug, please read the proposed layout for each class and structure in The unvanquished (first page), for many of your ideas have already been brought up and given to various classes. As for teamwork, we have been trying to promote that with classes such as the priestess. Also, each class has its own abilities, range, and weaknesses. A weakness in one class is a strength in another, and thus, when the classes work together they will hopefully create a very formidable enemy

Roanoke

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Re: [Concept] The Unvanquished.alpha_1
« Reply #119 on: January 24, 2009, 07:51:19 pm »
What about my magic idea? It fundamentally changes a lot of things, so I'd like some feedback.