Tremulous Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: khalsa on July 12, 2008, 06:46:01 pm
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Howdy guys,
As part of our ongoing effort to further develop Tremulous, I am pleased to announced some Planned games to help test the balance of future changes. Starting today we are going to have a game at 20:00:00 GMT ( 2:00 PM CST) every Saturday. Various devs, especially Norfenstien and myself will be on - so come join us and help test the balance changes!
Instructions if you need them are HERE (http://mercenariesguild.net/projects/mgdev-server/how-to-connect-to-the-dev-server) , else just point your http-download enabled Tremulous client to dev.tremulous.net and join the fun!
One word of advice - If this is your first time playing on the dev server, read the help, read the in-game help and look around these forums for the list of changes. If you have not been playing on the server for a few weeks, we pretty much don't care about any opinion of the changes formed in a few seconds. We do appreciate input, but it has to be well thought out and from someone who is fully aware of all the changes, and has been playing with them for a few weeks. If you just jump into the server and try to tell us how to make tremulous 1.2, I will just mute you ^_^ . You can give concise feedback on the }MG{ Forums if you so please.
To recap:
What: Planned Development Games
When: Every Saturday 20:00 GMT
Who: Everyone
Where: Tremulous Development server and Euro Tremulous Development server
/connect dev.tremulous.net
/connect edev.tremulous.net
Consice bug reports go here (http://projects.mercenariesguild.net/projects/mgdev/issues)
Hope to see each and every one of you come kill me today!
Khalsa
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Due to way more people than expected, second server is now up.
Servers are: dev.tremulous.net:30720 and dev.tremulous.net:30721
Euro server coming SOON(tm)
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thorn was kind enough to let us run an mgdev server on funzone, you can connect to it at 62.75.216.230:30730
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shud have stickied this, i only just saw this.
But ill be there on saturday.
Will it be normal maps, or some new ones, because if its the new ones, please dont, it takes ages to download them via auto download.
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Too bad the Euro MGdev has Unlagged enabled. This makes it obsolete, since there is already a Unlagged-enabled MGdev server.
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shud have stickied this, i only just saw this.
But ill be there on saturday.
Will it be normal maps, or some new ones, because if its the new ones, please dont, it takes ages to download them via auto download.
I'm not sure if there are any in rotation atm, but they should download fast if you have a new-ish client.
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Too bad the Euro MGdev has Unlagged enabled. This makes it obsolete, since there is already a Unlagged-enabled MGdev server.
Unlike 1.1, the game's balance is designed around the use of unlagged. Thus, testing and demonstrating balance under unlagged as part of the designed and intended settings would be the logical thing to do.
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Oh well, that just means less servers running 1.2.
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While nobody said it's illogical to test with Unlagged, I merely said it's a bit illogical to not test without Unlagged at all.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with supporting and promoting Unlagged, I just think it's bit weird that normal playing is completely abandoned in favor of augmented playing. Certainly considering the fact that there is quite a large part of this community that does not dig Unlagged that much.
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For our Australasian players, TremWars#2 now sports a 1.2 dev server, so if you live in the Australasian locale, and you want a lag-free 1.2 game, feel free to pop in.
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I'd love to play 1.2 with more people ::)
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but it isn't 1.2 yet... :P
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Is there a West coast server?
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Is there a West coast server?
no, but mg's server is in dallas, which is more than close enough, and at this point filling up one server is a rare occurence, let alone 4.
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BUMP!
All go play now!
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Well, after plenty of 1.2 games on TremWars, I have a few gripes with some of the changes.
I'll start by saying what I do like about 1.2, as to not sound negative. I love the new barricades. More and more people are using them now that you can easily get past them. I also like how the s1 granger has a swipe attack. And as for the teslas and DC; just, wow! Teslas are now useful (and not mindless noob spam) due to the slow spin up time of the new rets. I also love the fact that they are now not reliant on the DC, which instead repairs human structures. I also really like the charging bar for pouncing and luci's
Now, here's the bad bit.
The new luci is (imo) overpowered. The new adv mara sort of defeats the purpose (imo) of the adv mara, since it doesn't have to aim anymore. As for floor trappers! WTF? THEY WORK?
This is just a few of the new features that I like or dislike.
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Ive also played 1.2 quite a bit, and i have to say the "dodge" is a bit weird, and kinda hopeless in certain places. The human stamina is good, and new turrets cane.
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1.2 is a lie! It's not out yet. What you are playing is not 1.2
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I am idling in the server, I'm EST so I don't know if I've missed everyone or what.
Question: when playing by myself, I hit stage 2 and 3 for killing structures. I also got evos for killing structures. Is this intended and how does it work?
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I am idling in the server, I'm EST so I don't know if I've missed everyone or what.
Question: when playing by myself, I hit stage 2 and 3 for killing structures. I also got evos for killing structures. Is this intended and how does it work?
yes it's intended, and it works exactly how you would expect. value based on build point cost for everything with non-zero cost: human worth one tenth of build points in frags (aliens have partial frags now if you haven't already noticed), alien worth 15 times the build point cost in credits, hovel worth 120 credits (same as a tube), repeater worth .2 frags, overmind 450, reactor worth 3
(edit: i was wrong about reactor value)
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Am I the only one who finds the turrets activation sound too noisy? I didn't yet have a chance to play a decent game on the dev server (3 persons at most) but if they sound so loud in an empty server I'm afraid of the accumulated level of noise when there's fighting going on at human base.
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they should be no louder than any other weapon, but that sound is a bit weird (it used to be that on some headphones it sounded normal, but on speakers it was basically impossible to hear, so it was made louder), so there could be some issues with it.
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It's not in completely the same format as the other sounds (sampling rate etc.) so it behaves a bit oddly when the client does different weird things.
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My biggest gripe is the new dodge/sprint system. Some of the old behavior is impossible to replicate using this. For example, sprinting backwards; Binding it to s no longer works as it used to. Dodge may be nifty, but what key should get it exactly? I'd be much more in favor of it if dodge was in addition to the old system, rather than replacing it. (And yes, I know about cl_alwayssprint. It sucks in comparison). I suppose I could bind a toggle, but that's hardly as good. I just don't have the extra keys for another movement bind.
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My biggest gripe is the new dodge/sprint system. Some of the old behavior is impossible to replicate using this. For example, sprinting backwards; Binding it to s no longer works as it used to. Dodge may be nifty, but what key should get it exactly? I'd be much more in favor of it if dodge was in addition to the old system, rather than replacing it. (And yes, I know about cl_alwayssprint. It sucks in comparison). I suppose I could bind a toggle, but that's hardly as good. I just don't have the extra keys for another movement bind.
cg_alwayssprint replicates the old behavior exactly, what's wrong with it?
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Despite being the guy who fought to get cg_alwayssprint put in, I actually don't use it anymore. In dev you need the extra stamina more for dodging. Personally I bound button6 to middlemouse and have been pretty happy with that, though I'll admit I miss being able to sprint backwards. I suspect that I'm going to end up making that button also toggle alwayssprint pretty soon, or another button... something..
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The fact that cg_alwayssprint doesn't replicate the old behavior is pretty obvious from the name. Specifically: Normal running speed, hit the +boost bind, and sprint until you stop moving, at which point you are back to normal running speed and no longer sprinting. Being always sprinting makes it nearly impossible to conserve stamina. Having it off entirely means that for backpedaling you have to use a separate key (Rather than +moveback;+boost on a single key, which works fine in 1.1).
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The fact that cg_alwayssprint doesn't replicate the old behavior is pretty obvious from the name. Specifically: Normal running speed, hit the +boost bind, and sprint until you stop moving, at which point you are back to normal running speed and no longer sprinting.
that's what cg_alwayssprint does
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I'll have to test again, but that's not been my experience. When I've played, you never stop sprinting while that is set. Does it have multiple values?
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sounds fun
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Welcome to today, another planned mgdev day.
Today please populate the Euro Server First, and the US server second.
/connect edev.mercenariesguild.netfor the european server
and
/connect dev.tremulous.netfor the US server
Seeya there!
Khalsa
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When is the testing without Unlagged commencing?
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Join now!
Fun games on euro dev !
Khalsa
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i like you because your avatar is amazing.
Could be better if it was green and white, with a moon and star though :D
Enough of that, i always manage to miss all the games :(
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Another game today! Starting now if people'll show up:
/connect dev.tremulous.net
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with 180ping, it shredded more than pantera.
but i love the lucicharge-meter.
[EDIT:] uhh, it somewhat seemed that the eudev is also in a quake... isn't it - could it be the video mode that comes with the new version?
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with 180ping, it shredded more than pantera.
But not as much as Slayer...
Am I right? Am I right? ;D
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could it be the video mode that comes with the new version?
Rendering is handled by the client, so I doubt a mod can really change that.
It's possible for a cgame to affect your frame rate, but if anything yours should be significantly better in mgdev due to things like cg_optimizePrediction and cg_bounceParticles.
Unless I'm misunderstanding your issue entirely, which is possible.
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could it be the video mode that comes with the new version?
Rendering is handled by the client, so I doubt a mod can really change that.
It's possible for a cgame to affect your frame rate, but if anything yours should be significantly better in mgdev due to things like cg_optimizePrediction and cg_bounceParticles.
Unless I'm misunderstanding your issue entirely, which is possible.
prediction is done by the cgame (that's why cg_optimizeprediction works, it caches results from previous frames and uses them to greatly reduce the amount of work for the current frame if the previous result turned out to be correct)
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time for another game, join us at 62.75.216.230:30720
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Game in a couple hours from now, everyone please show up - you might see some interesting names on today if you look closely and are familer with Tremulous history ;)
Gonna be on USA Server : /connect dev.tremulous.net
Khalsa
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Game in a couple hours from now, everyone please show up - you might see some interesting names on today if you look closely and are familer with Tremulous history ;)
Gonna be on USA Server : /connect dev.tremulous.net
Khalsa
OOO! comin!
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any chance of 1 today?
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Hey guys,
Last weeks games were particularly awesome, I hope we can do it again today. Todays games will be on Eurodev in about 3.5 hours!
/connect edev.mercenariesguild.net
Seeya there!
Khalsa
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im a comin!!!
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Looks like I was way late for this.
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Can I bring cookies and Wine ? ;D
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Looks like I was way late for this.
Can I bring cookies and Wine ? ;D
You are a little past the date I think.
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There is always next Saturday!
You can always bring snacks, just make sure and bring enough to share with everyone.
Khalsa
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wut time is it usually at on saturday ???
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ill be on today, but noones there, WHAT TIME :'(
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ill be on today, but noones there, WHAT TIME :'(
When: Every Saturday 19:00 GMT
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ill be on today, but noones there, WHAT TIME :'(
When: Every Saturday 19:00 GMT
Thats why your here, thx :D
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I've tried it as alien and as human and I realized the new turrets encouraged human camping(in very small games, but well, that's what has even happened until now), at least until S2 where they could use DCC to repair structures.
I liked the staminia-healing medistat and the drop of the ackit, which was, to me, a bit an useless split from the ckit.
Nice barricades and charging bars.
I did not change my binds until recently as my whole config dropped, heh :) So only then I tried the dodge stuff. Some remarks:
- You can't use it when pressing two movement keys at once.
- Sprinting backwards can be really hard.
- I think dragoon and adv. dragoon pounce should be done using that key, it's a very similar movement in my view. In fact i have even bound dodge to RMB and found a place elsewhere for secondary attack. Warsow uses RMB for a similar movement to dodge and I think dragoon pounce belongs more to that action than to a secondary attack. Indeed you can attack with it but the primary function of pounce is to move fast, which happens to be the same goal than dodging's
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Game currently going on Euro MGDev (62.75.216.230:30720). Come play!
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Turn off unlagged, plz.
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Sorry, we like having people who live more than 50ms away being able to play.
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Game starting now on dev.tremulous.net
Trying out an experimental new gameplay change; not sure how it's going to affect things.
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Thanks for arranging these games. Was fun. :)
As for the experimental change, was that anything to do with 's4' decremnting the enemies stage by one? If so it seems like a nice idea but I'll have to play with it a few more times (with more teamwork than before) before I'll know how well it works.
As a minor note, it was a bit confusing when the "We have evolved" message came up when the humans reached s4. ???
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I think stage-downs are a good idea, it prevents total game lockups when both teams are s3. It gives people a reason to keep fighting.
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We have devolved!
For humans, maybe "Reinforcements all died" or just the generic "You fail too hard"
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"We have devolved" in a defeat tone, unlike the "We have evolved"
And for humans I like "Reinforcements all died" :)
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Thanks for arranging these games. Was fun. :)
As for the experimental change, was that anything to do with 's4' decremnting the enemies stage by one? If so it seems like a nice idea but I'll have to play with it a few more times (with more teamwork than before) before I'll know how well it works.
As a minor note, it was a bit confusing when the "We have evolved" message came up when the humans reached s4. ???
that's fixed now, i barely managed to get the code working in time for saturday's game, so it had 0 polish. i spent a decent chunk of my weekend cleaning it up and making it make sense.
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Game starting in 10 minutes on Euro MGDev:
/connect edev.mercenariesguild.net
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Maybe I'll spectate if my intarwebz hold out.
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It turns out I was too busy yesterday to join.
Did I miss anything/anyone special?
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I spectated for a while... Not many people came.
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Actually after you left the server filled up completely and we had about an hour and halfs worth of really good games with >20 people.
Was a great 2 hours of gaming.
Nux: You missed the point where humans needed 33,000 credits for next stage :p
Khalsa
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You make it sound like they were waiting for me to leave... :-\
Dammit.
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It turns out I was too busy yesterday to join.
Did I miss anything/anyone special?
you missed stannum not sharing his 1st person weapon models :P
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It turns out I was too busy yesterday to join.
Did I miss anything/anyone special?
you missed stannum not sharing his 1st person weapon models :P
Which is a good thing being as they're not exactly balance-testing related and folks ought to have some part of 1.2 to actually look forward to in the future.
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I don't like "Reinforcements all died" cause idk. How about:
- Our forces have weakened
- We are being overrun
- The threat has increased
- The enemy is advancing
- We're being overpowered
- Our chances are slimming
- We need to regroup
- We've been too careless
just some suggestions.
My opinion: the stage down feature puts power in the hands of killwhores, to me that's not good or bad, but it will make us that enjoy averaging 150 kills, instead of ending it in five minutes, more effective than we usually are.
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It turns out I was too busy yesterday to join.
Did I miss anything/anyone special?
lame >_>
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- We are being overrun
- The enemy is advancing
/me likes.
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Did I miss anything/anyone special?
lame >_>
Of course you are ALL special. I was just wondering if anyone MORE special showed up ;) (Like a tremulous developer or David Hasselhoff)
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Did I miss anything/anyone special?
lame >_>
Of course you are ALL special. I was just wondering if anyone MORE special showed up ;) (Like a tremulous developer or David Hasselhoff)
David who? Not sure who that is...but wow imagine if Timbo were there! <3
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Well Timbo was there a few weeks ago, and apparently I didn't get to get his autograph. :(
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I very strongly dislike the new "stage-down" feature. Seems like a "solution" in search of a problem.
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I very strongly dislike the new "stage-down" feature. Seems like a "solution" in search of a problem.
That's not really what I'd call helpful criticism :)
The problem it solves is the difficulty of pushing a small but significant advantage sufficiently to end a game in your favour. Too many games quickly reach s3-s3 and then stay there for a long time. It's also fun because it keeps the later game dynamic, and gives goals to work towards at every stage.
Why don't you like it?
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I for one don't take to the concept easily because killwhoring is now going to more heavily damage the opposing team, and s3 aliens can keep humans pinned at stage 1 indefinitely, which would just suck.
Edit: some alternate suggestions:
Aliens...
Getting to "stage 4" as an alien strikes every human building to half health.
Getting to stage 4 as an alien increases the cost of items at the armory by a certain factor.
Getting to stage 4 as an alien increases the hitpoints of alien structures
Humans...
Getting to stage 4 as a human shrinks the range of creep until the aliens stage up
Getting to stage 4 as a human destroys the alien trappers.
Getting to stage 4 as a human increases human maximum stamina
Both teams...
Getting to stage 4 fills (fully or partially) your entire team's credits/evos
Getting to stage 4 allows extra build points
Getting to stage 4 requires the other team to not only get the usual required kills, but also "two (or something more than one) kills in a row" to stage up.
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I think you will find that many of your concerns are unfounded, and that in practice things are quite different.
Please play several proper games with any changes before commenting on the concepts and ideas.
Khalsa
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Some proper players will have to start playing there before I can judge how a proper game will unfold :P
In all seriousness, we're not going to know how a skilled game will play out until clans start using it, and I don't see that happening soon.
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Why do you need clans for skilled players?
I've seen a lot of skilled players there, and quite frankly most clans are far from skilled.
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How about you bring your clan along for a game! The more the merrier!!
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One pro on a server = stage 82
Rest of nubs = stage -82
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The idea isn't to add "stage 4" for its own sake. The idea is to replace sudden death by tipping the balance in the direction of the team who's dominating the other, making the game actually go toward a win for the better team instead of a 45 minute draw because the losing team camped their chainsuits/tyrants all game.
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Yes, it generally seems to give the dominant team more of a advantage than they already had. I hope this doesn't make the games more deterministic. Would an early lead assure a win? Would the importance of not feeding encourage more camp?
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Why do I mention clans...because when clans play eachother, they care (somewhat, at least) who wins. It's not that they are better, but they try harder and work as a team, and can keep from having one or two game-breaking feeders.
And I'd say Zubs is pretty darn skilled, for the record. :D
And yeah, it may help the dominant team, but one or two feeders could seriously harm your team, and I like games to be in the hands of the skilled players.
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We don't know, simply. It's a new idea being tried out. Come try it with us and we'll find out together.
[edit] Also remember that you get creds/evos from killing buildings now too, so feeding/not is not the only determiner. If rets/tubes are being killed, the enemy is advancing, regardless of who's camping or not.
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has the actual alien/human player balancing changed from the last build? I missed the dev games so...
Because i got to say the last build was far too harsh to aliens. fair enough deducting the rants health, but the regen is just stupid, and gives the humans to far an edge. I'd prefer the medikit to the regen any day, seeing as its far to slow, and you cant expect your teamate to sneak around as a basi in S3...
but anyway im going to check it out now to see if i wasted my time posting this :p
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I've played with stage-downs several times, and it is much easier to get stage-downs as Humans than as Aliens.
In part, because dretches often can't get close to a Human with a mass driver, flame-thrower or Lucifer cannon, while rifle grunts can do a fair amount of damage to a Tyrant before getting slaughtered.
Also, Humans can fight the enemy without being on the front lines, while an alien is forced to either approach the human attacker or avoid confrontation.
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has the actual alien/human player balancing changed from the last build? I missed the dev games so...
Because i got to say the last build was far too harsh to aliens. fair enough deducting the rants health, but the regen is just stupid, and gives the humans to far an edge. I'd prefer the medikit to the regen any day, seeing as its far to slow, and you cant expect your teamate to sneak around as a basi in S3...
but anyway im going to check it out now to see if i wasted my time posting this :p
that wasn't a recent change >.>
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Sorry if I wasn't being constructive, and while to be fair I haven't played many games with the stage down feature, I agree with what other people are saying about it; it strikes me that way.
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Game today is on the U.S. server
/connect dev.tremulous.net
We're doing something a little different today: I've gotten pretty bored of the stock map set, so we're going to try playing an entirely different rotation. You'll either need a client with HTTP downloads enabled (which you should have anyway if you're playing here) or to download them ahead of time:
http://mercenariesguild.net/mgdev/mgdev-maps.zip (US server)
http://tremulous.soliter.org/mgdev-maps.zip (Euro server)
Here's the list, in case you have most of them already and don't want to download the whole zip:
map-abyss_a5.pk3
map-thermal.pk3
map-1984b4.pk3
map-sectorb17.pk3
map-Cerberus.pk3
map-metro-b1-2.pk3
map-takana-b1.pk3
map-Bunker5634.pk3
map-sedna-beta3-1.1.0.pk3
map-station15-beta3.pk3
map-ticonderoga_0-4.pk3
If you're on *nix put them in ~/.tremulous/base
If you're on Windows put them in C:\Program Files\Tremulous\base
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Couldn't attend again (halloween party).
So how'd it go? What did I miss?
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Is there gonna be a game today? I'll be on the servers now if any1 wants a game.
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Today's will probably be on the European server at 3:00 PM.
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Indeed. Half hour from now (20:00 UTC, 15:00 EST) on Euro Dev (edev.mercenariesguild.net).
And Nux, you missed the biggest and longest session of dev games we've ever had.
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any chance of another one today :p
i always miss them!
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Indeed. Half hour from now (20:00 UTC, 15:00 EST) on Euro Dev (edev.mercenariesguild.net).
And Nux, you missed the biggest and longest session of dev games we've ever had.
DAMNIT! I thought I'd missed it already when syntac said it was at 3pm (I took that as 15:00 UTC). :<
I checked the dev servers occasionally but I missed the time you were actually on. >.<
Pah!
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please correct me guys but as far as i remember when Hamstar told me that i obviously playing in lagged style because i lead my shots (i mean i'm aiming ahead of the enemy) it was norfenstein who said he never noticed difference between lagged/unlagged.
or was it a joke that i didn'T understand?
or i don't remember the names correctly...
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No worries Nux, i've missed all of them ;)
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EDIT: Decently sized game already going on right now
Game today will be in one hour, on the US server (dev.mercenariesguild.net). That's 20:00 UTC, 15:00 EST. Two weeks ago things kind of died off after an hour or so and then REALLY picked up, so we could change the scheduled time if it'd get more people on. Speak up if this is the case for you.
please correct me guys but as far as i remember when Hamstar told me that i obviously playing in lagged style because i lead my shots (i mean i'm aiming ahead of the enemy) it was norfenstein who said he never noticed difference between lagged/unlagged.
or was it a joke that i didn'T understand?
or i don't remember the names correctly...
That was me. I really can't tell a difference between unlagged on and off when my ping is under 200 (and I don't play where my ping is higher than that).
And for the record (I wasn't clear on this myself) unlagged IS a server setting, so server operators won't be forced to have it on (and if you want it off for yourself there is cg_unlagged). We're going to keep it on for these test games.
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Ok, well, I'm on the server right now, and after playing for two games, I have some initial impressions of Tremulous 1.2, and they are both bad (sorry to be a downer).
For one, the Adv. Mara is WAY, WAY too overpowered. I know it's been said before, but still. The games have basically all ended with an adv. mara takeover. You should have to lead your electric zaps. BUT, if this is not going to be the case, lower the "firing rate" of the shock and lower it's power.
Second of all, the new mark system is a good idea in theory, but it's just so tedious. It's VERY hard to move a new building into a spot where another building already is without marking it, deconning it, rebuilding it, then marking it and rebuilding a new building that spot. Now, if there is a way to circumvent this, please enlighten me.
Oh, and there is one good thing. I like the enemy stagedown idea, because it adds a whole new level of "motivation" the the game.
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Hi, please play several more games before you form and share your opinion.
The 3 games that you did play - the humans all built very tight bases, which are obviously going to be fodder for Adv. Mars.
Mark-decon DOES take some getting used to, please try building with it for several weeks before writing it off as difficult.
Khalsa
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Evoc, Mgdev is crap, stop associating it with 1.2. Personally I see XserverX as a better adjustment than the mgdev changes.
And as you can see above, if you try to say something is not right with it, they completely deny it as if everything they do is perfect... Oh wait I forgot it was MGdev...
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Evoc, Mgdev is crap, stop associating it with 1.2. Personally I see XserverX as a better adjustment than the mgdev changes.
And as you can see above, if you try to say something is not right with it, they completely deny it as if everything they do is perfect... Oh wait I forgot it was MGdev...
dear hater,
please keep your unconstructive criticism to yourself.
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IM COMING!!!!!!!!!!!
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Uhh it's over already. I went, had some fun.
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Evoc, Mgdev is crap, stop associating it with 1.2. Personally I see XserverX as a better adjustment than the mgdev changes.
And as you can see above, if you try to say something is not right with it, they completely deny it as if everything they do is perfect... Oh wait I forgot it was MGdev...
You mean the same Xserver X that has Lucifer cannon shots that move faster than on MGDev, 500 damage blasters, 300 hp grangers, 1600 hp tyrants, basi gas that does 15 damage per second, and 300 bullets per rifle clip?
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X is the spawn of Satan. But let's leave that for another thread.
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That was me. I really can't tell a difference between unlagged on and off when my ping is under 200 (and I don't play where my ping is higher than that).
And for the record (I wasn't clear on this myself) unlagged IS a server setting, so server operators won't be forced to have it on (and if you want it off for yourself there is cg_unlagged). We're going to keep it on for these test games.
i don't know why i tought that unlagged will be some kind of built-in stuff, maybe i misunderstood something in the heat of the discussion threads :-)
however, it would be really nice to try that without it.
why you can't feel the difference is... a true mistery. :-X
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That was me. I really can't tell a difference between unlagged on and off when my ping is under 200 (and I don't play where my ping is higher than that).
And for the record (I wasn't clear on this myself) unlagged IS a server setting, so server operators won't be forced to have it on (and if you want it off for yourself there is cg_unlagged). We're going to keep it on for these test games.
i don't know why i tought that unlagged will be some kind of built-in stuff, maybe i misunderstood something in the heat of the discussion threads :-)
however, it would be really nice to try that without it.
why you can't feel the difference is... a true mistery. :-X
Because he is awesome.
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Because he is awesome.
after listening to all the superiors, i'll have to admit he is.
if you can't tell the difference, you should be dedicated to control it!
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Game today?
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I don't see anyone on any mgdev servers...
Hello? Anybody there?
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I don't see anyone on any mgdev servers...
Hello? Anybody there?
edit: nvm our fucked up daylight savings time screwed us up.
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Actually DST is screwing things up, it *is* 1900 gmt, but all us americans are used to the games being 2 PM CST, so I'm on the edev server now :(
Khalsa
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No, sorry everyone (especially the person I told the wrong time to the other day in-game), we're going to keep it at 3 PM on the east coast of the US, which makes it at 20:00 now and forever more. That's half an hour from now.
EDIT: Of course people are playing now already anyway, so... yea...
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Overall was very fun.
The only problem I found was that unlagged failed fairly frequently (even when my ping was a nice ~50). Since this is something I'm used to only happening with a higher ping using shotty, it's a little worrying.
Now I just hope all this unlagged play hasn't messed up my leading for tomorrows TOT match. If it has I might not be able to join you for the next few saturdays.
Anyhow, thanks for the fun!
Edit: Here's a demo (http://uploaded.to/?id=fzfpzv) of us playing today where the UL problem was mentioned. Watch out for the saw+suit fights in particular.
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Overall was very fun.
The only problem I found was that unlagged failed fairly frequently (even when my ping was a nice ~50). Since this is something I'm used to only happening with a higher ping using shotty, it's a little worrying.
Now I just hope all this unlagged play hasn't messed up my leading for tomorrows TOT match. If it has I might not be able to join you for the next few saturdays.
Anyhow, thanks for the fun!
Edit: Here's a demo (http://uploaded.to/?id=fzfpzv) of us playing today where the UL problem was mentioned. Watch out for the saw+suit fights in particular.
you can turn off unlagged for your own attacks any time you want.
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Heh, I know that kevlarman. This isn't something personal, this is an observed error. I think those who do use unlagged would like to know it works properly.
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Kev: Several people observed problems with (what might be unlagged) hits failing or seemingly absolutely missed hits killing opponents. I did as well.
Khalsa
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I really enjoyed the games we played today, in particular the new awesome maps we played. Also the alien teamwork in certain games was really nice!
I did however also notice the odd aiming glitches, and i hope they will be solved until next week.
The faster dretch seems like a nice balance change, making it more useful.
Keep up the good work!
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Having just this second remembered, I'd like to point out another possible bug. At one point the tab menu displayed "0 creds to stage down" (or something to that effect) and continued to do so despite us earning more creds thereafter. This may be because the enemy were at s1 and couldn't stage down further. This doesn't explain why later the "# creds to stage down" message vanished completely, leaving just "Stage 3". It then went back to "0 creds to stage down".
So is there a specific place I should be posting these mgdev-specific bugs?
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Having just this second remembered, I'd like to point out another possible bug. At one point the tab menu displayed "0 creds to stage down" (or something to that effect) and continued to do so despite us earning more creds thereafter. This may be because the enemy were at s1 and couldn't stage down further. This doesn't explain why later the "# creds to stage down" message vanished completely, leaving just "Stage 3". It then went back to "0 creds to stage down".
So is there a specific place I should be posting these mgdev-specific bugs?
patches.mercenariesguild.net has a section for mgdev bugs, the 0 creds to stage down bug comes from the math for the counter being outright wrong (but it's not obvious until you have earned some credits at s3 vs s1, so i missed it)
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Aww man I missed it again :(
I'm going to get so mad if I miss it again I'm going to:
:tyrant:
:reactor: :battlesuit: - a rant jumped the rc?
You should make it Saturday and Sunday.
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any chance of another one today?
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Yes, US server (dev.tremulous.net) in 10 minutes.
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I played a few games there today and I have to say that I like it. Overall everything seems much more balanced. The only problem I have with it is that it seems a lot slower than 1.1, game play and weapon charging are all a few seconds slower. Oh and I hate not being able to dodge luci's, I think Norf agreed and said that it takes away any effectiveness that dretches have at S3.
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I tried it yesterday too for the first time in a while and it was definitely a lot of fun on aliens trying out the different classes. I wasn't able to try humans but that's something to look forward to for next week I guess :)
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I still think that the aliens have been gimped too much and that the humans have been made way too powerful.
My main problem with the humans is the luci. It now has no fault, it is way too fast, it should have been kept the same as it was more balanced like that, it could easily kill anything up to an adv goon no matter what. Now its so stupidly overpowered it can kills tyrants with ease now aswell, seeing as before rants had the defence of being able to run when they were hurt.
I really thinkt he luci should be reverted to its original state.
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I still think that the aliens have been gimped too much and that the humans have been made way too powerful.
My main problem with the humans is the luci. It now has no fault, it is way too fast, it should have been kept the same as it was more balanced like that, it could easily kill anything up to an adv goon no matter what. Now its so stupidly overpowered it can kills tyrants with ease now aswell, seeing as before rants had the defence of being able to run when they were hurt.
I really thinkt he luci should be reverted to its original state.
heh, for a while i was arguing that luci should be changed back for the exact opposite reasons.
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In my opinion people should think of the lucifer cannon as the human tyrant. Most skilled tyrants in 1.1 could destroy any single opponent with no problem, and even on mgdev they outclass most of the opposition. As a dretch against a lucifer cannon you should expect to be destroyed, and your only hope is to get one poison-bite in before your inevitable death.
The problem with the old lucifer cannon was that it didn't really inspire fear like the tyrant did. So long as you didn't do anything stupid you'd probably be fine. I think the cannon that we have now goes some way to correcting that inequality.
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The only problem is that, in it's current state, I can see the Lucifer Cannon being used by campers to diminish alien health, making them run all the way back to their creep to regenerate.
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The only problem is that, in it's current state, I can see the Lucifer Cannon being used by campers to diminish alien health, making them run all the way back to their creep to regenerate.
if the aliens don't have a forward booster and/or basi (and preferably both) against a camping team, then something is wrong.
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Also, the adv. granger's speed seems to be the same as the S1 one , which makes it almost impossible to dodge in times of need.
Why was it chosen so ?
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Because the granger is not meant to dodge?
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Neither is it meant to fight, so take away its swipes also (which are now with s1 granger too) ::) .
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Just revert the luci back, its silly, and not gimped in any way. If you look at them as a rant, then loom how much the rant has been gimped. 350 health, stupidly slow regen rates. And then for the luci...nothing... it should have stayed the same, as i thought it was a balanced weapon.
Another gripe is the Rant regen. Im not going to say revert it, because i know i'd be fighting a lost battle. But can you have it so that the when by a creep, you get the old amount of regen, instead of the tiny increase you get otherwise. I really dont think that lisk auras dont work, as its just harsh to expect any player (apart from lisking gods) to lisk at S3vS3. Also it would add insentive to add a forward base or egg when attacking the human base, which would add a whole new kind of element (how many entrances should i build an egg on etc.)
With those to things changed i'd say it would be balanced, without them, it obviously isnt.
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I've been playing a bit of MG Dev, and I must say, the stagedown feature is one of the most unbalancing things I've ever seen added to a game.
"So, your team is getting pwned by killwhore rants? Here, let me take away your battlesuits and Lucifer cannons, that will make everything more fun, right?"
I understand that it is to prevent the lockup matches, but it tips the balance towards aliens. Even with the Tyrant nerf, there are still gigantic threats to your team.
Goon from AA? Might as well admit defeat. Things like the Lucifer Cannon and battlesuit can be too vital to your team's survival to simply toss out the window because you die.
Simply put, if a team is doing badly, don't make them weaker, it's just unfair. The other team is already better and on the path to winning at the point you could attain a stagedown.
I'd like to see the stagedown feature effect a team that spends more than 70% of time near turrets. :)
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I'd like to see the stagedown feature effect a team that spends more than 70% of time near turrets. :)
Yes, that'd be cool.
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I've been playing a bit of MG Dev, and I must say, the stagedown feature is one of the most unbalancing things I've ever seen added to a game.
"So, your team is getting pwned by killwhore rants? Here, let me take away your battlesuits and Lucifer cannons, that will make everything more fun, right?"
I understand that it is to prevent the lockup matches, but it tips the balance towards aliens. Even with the Tyrant nerf, there are still gigantic threats to your team.
Goon from AA? Might as well admit defeat. Things like the Lucifer Cannon and battlesuit can be too vital to your team's survival to simply toss out the window because you die.
Simply put, if a team is doing badly, don't make them weaker, it's just unfair. The other team is already better and on the path to winning at the point you could attain a stagedown.
I agree with Killer Whale, if your the team thats losing and your trying our best to survive, basically the game says, "Haha, There goes a stage, goodluck noob, thats what you get for sucking!". Thats very noob friendly, as mentioned by Whale, the winning team already has the upper hand, so why give them another advantage? :-\
Also, the Luci was fine just the way it was, the best you could've done was to make the shot go a little bit faster if you wanted to change something about it, not make it stronger.
Also people suggested the granger shouldn't be able to attack. Just leave the granger alone, and let it have some sort of attack to defend itself, without it it'll just feed alot.
Well, good job with the other noticible balance changes developers, you're all doing an awesome job! ^^
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Simply put, if a team is doing badly, don't make them weaker, it's just unfair. The other team is already better and on the path to winning at the point you could attain a stagedown.
Why not have the end faster rather than delaying it another X minutes?
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Also, the Luci was fine just the way it was, the best you could've done was to make the shot go a little bit faster if you wanted to change something about it, not make it stronger.
that's exactly how it did change, higher speed in exchange for lower fire rate (in the case of the secondary fire it's a rather extreme difference, in the case of primary not so much)
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Somehow I always miss the development games :( Can you tell me now when the next one will be so I can put it in my calendar (I'm not busy I just keep forgetting about it and if it's in my face constantly I cannot forget it :)) to finally be able to check out the new stuff?
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Somehow I always miss the development games :( Can you tell me now when the next one will be so I can put it in my calendar (I'm not busy I just keep forgetting about it and if it's in my face constantly I cannot forget it :)) to finally be able to check out the new stuff?
Umm ... did you happen to miss the 1st post in this thread ? ;D In case you are wondering, it's always the same and if there's a change I guess it'll be edited to reflect that .
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Also people suggested the granger shouldn't be able to attack. Just leave the granger alone, and let it have some sort of attack to defend itself, without it it'll just feed a lot.
The only thing that the granger having an attack accomplishes is encouraging newbies to attack with it.
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Also people suggested the granger shouldn't be able to attack. Just leave the granger alone, and let it have some sort of attack to defend itself, without it it'll just feed a lot.
The only thing that the granger having an attack accomplishes is encouraging newbies to attack with it.
Give the granger a blaster. It's essentially a tiny, green, cute conkit. The humans get blasters with their conkits, why can't the aliens. Discrimination I say!
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Rifle-squads can take down tyrants and goons with the new regen system and a bit of strategy.
Try playing dretch versus a couple lucifer cannons with a mass-driver for backup.
Also, the granger's attack is pitifully weak, especially with the granger's speed.
A granger can't catch a human unless he fell in a trapper. A basi will kill the human himself before the granger has time to get there.
My number one gripe with the MGDev changes is how much steeper they made the learning curve.
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Try playing dretch versus a couple lucifer cannons with a mass-driver for backup.
Hmm? Was this ever supposed to be fair?
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Game in 30 minutes (20:00 UTC) on the European server.
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Game in 30 minutes (20:00 UTC) on the European server.
hehe im still hoping theres a game going on :p i always manage to miss the time :p .
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25 minutes from now on the US server (dev.tremulous.net)
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When you play today, please also check out and give feedback on third person spectating (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=9800).
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Game in 30 minutes from now (20:00 UTC, 15:00 EST) on Euro Dev (edev.mercenariesguild.net).
The big change for today is that staging down has been removed. It was pretty unpopular, and the thorough testing we did showed it didn't have the benefits I suspected it might, at least not to any significant degree.
Two minor changes as well (both suggested by Cadynum):
- Repeaters' power zones can now overlap the reactor's zone (but still not other repeaters'). So you don't have to overextend as much to build forward.
- Ckit repairing auto-fires - you no longer have to hold down secondary attack.
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Game in 30 minutes from now (20:00 UTC, 15:00 EST) on Euro Dev (edev.mercenariesguild.net).
The big change for today is that staging down has been removed. It was pretty unpopular, and the thorough testing we did showed it didn't have the benefits I suspected it might, at least not to any significant degree.
Two minor changes as well (both suggested by Cadynum):
- Repeaters' power zones can now overlap the reactor's zone (but still not other repeaters'). So you don't have to overextend as much to build forward.
- Ckit repairing auto-fires - you no longer have to hold down secondary attack.
I wasn't able to play today, but I am definitely liking all these changes. Also auto-firing ckit is a godsend, thank you so much ;D
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Well many thought it was bugged because they were trying to hold it which would have the toggle switching constantly. Isn't there a way for a tap to register as a toggle but a hold to register as.. a hold?
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Well many thought it was bugged because they were trying to hold it which would have the toggle switching constantly. Isn't there a way for a tap to register as a toggle but a hold to register as.. a hold?
there is no toggle, it's just on.
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there is no toggle, it's just on.
As in it repairs whenever you're near something that needs repairing automatically?
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there is no toggle, it's just on.
As in it repairs whenever you're near something that needs repairing automatically?
you still have to point it injured buildings
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Alright. Well for whatever reason, secondary fire would make the repair fail.
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Alright. Well for whatever reason, secondary fire would make the repair fail.
no it wouldn't.
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The big change for today is that staging down has been removed. It was pretty unpopular, and the thorough testing we did showed it didn't have the benefits I suspected it might, at least not to any significant degree.
Very nice, the games were much more enjoyable now!
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no it wouldn't.
So is it an intentional feature?
I'm not sure why you would want to prevent the ckit from repairing while you have it out.
Or do you mean that it doesn't stop the ckit repairing? If so you might want to check for yourself.
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What I gather from kevlarman's messages is:
When you have a construction kit, simply point it at buildings and they will repair.
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What I gather from kevlarman's messages is:
When you have a construction kit, simply point it at buildings and they will repair.
Whereas holding the right mouse button will stop it from repairing.
Understand that I know what he's talking about; I was there, using this feature last saturday.
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Why not allow repairing/deconning while the build timer ticks down?
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Because its a major balance change?
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How so?
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It makes a single human builder a lot more powerful, able to effectively do the job of two builders under the right circumstances, such as when aliens are attacking.
It would make it a lot harder for aliens to break the humans defences, as the humans would be able to rebuild and repair a lot quicker.
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I fail to see how one builder can do the job of several, as the time it takes to get 3 rets up doesn't change. It would also help during rapid decon of something.
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If you can't see how being able to both build and repair (or build and decon) at the same time wouldn't significantly change the current balance of the game, especially during base attacks, there must be a problem with you. Perhaps it wouldn't be allowing a single builder to do the job of several, or even double his efficiency, but it would still dramatically increase his base repairing potential. Imagine the human base is under attack. A tyrant just took out two turrets before the humans could take him down, but there is also an advanced dragoon sniping the reactor. You're the only human builder. You now have a choice to make: start building new turrets to replace the fallen defenses, or run to try to save the reactor from barbs by repairing it. Under your suggestion, you'd be able to do both, removing the tension and strategy from the situation, as well as significantly boosting your defenses against the aliens. Now imagine instead of you being the only builder, there are two of you. Currently, one could start rebuilding the turrets while the other repairs the reactor. Under your suggestion? Both turrets can begin rebuilding immediately, AND the reactor will get repaired TWICE as fast!
Besides, marked decon makes rapid decons easy and quick, so your point is moot.
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But the rets wouldn't shoot immediately. You'd be able to get one ret up, which would quickly be chomped before being able to fire, and then the goon resumes sniping the rc. You can't build another one for like 30 seconds, more than enough for the goon to do serious damage and for the rant to come back.
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In that case why not double the damage a rifler deals. I mean, ONE still wouldn't be able to take out that goon, would he...
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But these are different things. One would be able to damage a goon more seriously.
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To be quite honest with you Roanoke, goons suck against everything but a turret and they still need to hit it twice, which means they can take out about one, and run like sissys.
The rant? if the human base has no turrets at all, its screwed and going to get rushed anyway. If it has so much as one turret, a builder with your idea could thwart an attack (with a bit of help) while building another. Also rants dont come flying back, almost everybody who uses them always runs away halfway across the map (like noobs) which gives you plenty of time.
If we really needed to heal rets while building more rets, wouldn't you expect humans to lose almost every single game?
No idea what a marked decon is...
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If we really needed to heal rets while building more rets, wouldn't you expect humans to lose almost every single game?
That's the most decent reason I've heard so far, and I admit you're right.
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Game in 10 minutes! US server this week (dev.tremulous.net).
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Game in 10 minutes! US server this week (dev.tremulous.net).
IMMM A COMIN!
why do i always post that, as if you want to know :-\ BUT ILL NEVER STOP :police:
EDIT: My comp froze when i was playing (my comps good) and its not the first time, i think last time aswell it froze...
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Game in 5 minutes on the Euro Server
/connect edev.tremulous.net
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15 minutes, US server
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Game in 20 minutes from now (20:00 UTC, 15:00 EST) on Euro Dev (edev.tremulous.net).
It looks like I never mentioned it, but for the past few weeks we've had a change that makes it so that build points from destroyed structures (not ones intentionally moved by a builder) return gradually over time instead of immediately. This gives an offensive team a bigger window of opportunity to keep up a multi-wave attack. So far it seems to be a really positive improvement, making stalemates rarer and offense more effective, without any serious downsides. It's a subtle change, and we're still toying with it a bit, but come try it out today.
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Game in 20 minutes on the US Server (dev.tremulous.net). Please fill up the correct one each week so we can get as big playercounts as possible.
The only change from last week is that structures no longer give funds/stage points. The original intention of this was to give attackers (successful ones at least) the resources to keep attacking bases in waves. It really hasn't achieved that effect, and build point queuing solves the problem much better (the problem of attacks being futile because the enemy can rebuild too quickly). So I felt that having this bonus (as nice as it was for people being successful on offense) was just too punishing for non-conservative builders.
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Edit: post removed, I criticized the changes pretty hard, and though I believe what i said, Im really just more irritated with WireDDD's thick skull than I am with MGDev, so I'll keep my thoughts about the game to myself.
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Dretch headbites do less damage, eliminated the bite-poison kill, and also have less health. Dretches lose to rifles in 1.1, so if anything, they should be made more powerful in 1.2, not less.
+1
not to mention the boost, I rebound it once, and then it was borked on normal servers.
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I agree with kamikozzy, even if he removed his post. I encourage him to repost. Anyway, I also believe that dretches are underpowered, particularly since 4 bullets pwntz it. As for the luci, the new change of slow fire eliminates any effectiveness for ranged combat.
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I played, it's worse than 1.1, and here's why: Slanted edges now have wild-ass vertical force. It feels like you're playing on a trickjump server, and it makes it difficult to roam about with a goon.
People think they need to build barricades now because of their new functionality. Note to grangers: They still suck, they still block. Dretch headbites do less damage, eliminated the bite-poison kill, and also have less health.
Dretches lose to rifles in 1.1, so if anything, they should be made more powerful in 1.2, not less. Increased speed is supposed to help but it just makes it more difficult to stay locked on to a headshot, similar to during a mara jump in 1.1. this problem is magnified by the slant-edge thing I spoke of before. Supposedly they're harder to hit, but I didn't see anyone good missing any shots.
For whatever reason, boost has changed to a +button. This eliminates the ability to bind the back key and only the back key to boost. I use alwayssprint and it's fine for me, but I heard others complain.
The lucifer cannon is now retarded. It fires much faster but takes longer to charge, which kills what it does best: take out a base quickly, and makes it a better spam tool for killing aliens. It also makes it more difficult to perform the lucy hop, which is used in a million situations before, and almost none now.
Reposted, I've already been quoted, anyway :P
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Dretch headbites do less damage, eliminated the bite-poison kill, and also have less health. Dretches lose to rifles in 1.1, so if anything, they should be made more powerful in 1.2, not less.
+1
not to mention the boost, I rebound it once, and then it was borked on normal servers.
normal clients have per mod configs for a reason, go bitch at amanieu for removing them.
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Well I won't, okay.
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Binds in Tremfusion are per-mod...
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Reposted, I've already been quoted, anyway :P
+1 agree with all of that
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I played, it's worse than 1.1, and here's why: Slanted edges now have wild-ass vertical force. It feels like you're playing on a trickjump server, and it makes it difficult to roam about with a goon.
People think they need to build barricades now because of their new functionality. Note to grangers: They still suck, they still block. Dretch headbites do less damage, eliminated the bite-poison kill, and also have less health.
Dretches lose to rifles in 1.1, so if anything, they should be made more powerful in 1.2, not less. Increased speed is supposed to help but it just makes it more difficult to stay locked on to a headshot, similar to during a mara jump in 1.1. this problem is magnified by the slant-edge thing I spoke of before. Supposedly they're harder to hit, but I didn't see anyone good missing any shots.
For whatever reason, boost has changed to a +button. This eliminates the ability to bind the back key and only the back key to boost. I use alwayssprint and it's fine for me, but I heard others complain.
The lucifer cannon is now retarded. It fires much faster but takes longer to charge, which kills what it does best: take out a base quickly, and makes it a better spam tool for killing aliens. It also makes it more difficult to perform the lucy hop, which is used in a million situations before, and almost none now.
Reposted, I've already been quoted, anyway :P
i agree with nearly all of that. Seriously, i may stop playing trem if anything with similar balance changes ever sees the light of day.
what, i ask you, was wrong with the current balance. Yes, maybe aliens win more, but is that a problem? I mean when i play as aliens or humans, i always have intense fun, and i find the game to be competitive until the last moment, and the fact that you may be beaten a few times more than often, did not distract from the fun of the game.
The new balance changes are terrible, sorry but its true. It is inaccesable to new users (as trem is a hard game to learn to play, and now it is even harder thanks to the balance changes) and really takes all the fun out of it.
I would be much happier if tremulous 1.2 just kept the same balance as 1.1
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Indeed, humans would win more anyways with teamwork. ::)
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Game in 5 minutes on the Euro server (edev.tremulous.net).
I have a half-written reply to KamikOzzy I'll finish and post after we play.
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Slanted edges now have wild-ass vertical force. It feels like you're playing on a trickjump server, and it makes it difficult to roam about with a goon.
I have no idea what you're talking about here; could you maybe describe a situation I could reproduce this in 1.1 and 1.2 to compare and understand?
Dretch headbites do less damage, eliminated the bite-poison kill, and also have less health.
Dretches lose to rifles in 1.1, so if anything, they should be made more powerful in 1.2, not less. Increased speed is supposed to help but it just makes it more difficult to stay locked on to a headshot, similar to during a mara jump in 1.1.
Dretches "losing to rifles" is a subjective (and unsubstantiated) claim, so it's not usable feedback without further explanation. The problems you're having might be solved by using a different strategy with the dretch.
To summarize the dretch changes:
Improvements- Dretch hitbox is smaller -- the model is bigger, so they look bigger, but they're actually harder to hit now, which makes a much bigger difference then you might think.
- Dretches are worth fewer credits, so "feeding" with them is less of a drain on your team. Stage points are also no longer based on kills but on credits (for both teams -- there's a conversion for alien frags) so you're also not helping humans stage up faster.
- Dretch has faster movement speed. If this can somehow be considered a downside, then would making them slower in 1.1 have been an improvement? I can't follow that logic.
Downgrades- Dretches do less damage per bite, with a 200ms longer delay between bites. It still takes two headshots to kill an unhelemeted human without a bsuit, just like in 1.1, but the strategy of killing humans has moved away from closing distance and circle strafing while doing headshots to slightly more of a hit and run deal. In 1.1 if a human had 96 or less health (one bullet from a teammate, or 4 points of falling damage, etc.) then they could be killed in one hit by a dretch. It seemed unreasonable to me for humans to need their medkits after taking just 4 points of damage in order to survive a future encounter with the aliens' ostensibly weakest class.
- Dretch health has been reduced from 25 to 20. That's one less rifle bullet they can survive, but with the their smaller hitbox and faster movement speed I can't agree that this was a bad change. Remember that dretches are a free class that aren't worth enough to humans for them to buy more than a shotgun, or a painsaw with light armour.
Apologies if I forgot anything. I think to some degree people are upset about the dretch changes because they preferred using dretches over some of the higher alien classes 1.1. This alone was anecdotal evidence to me that dretches were overpowered, but the higher classes will be more worthwhile in 1.2 so you shouldn't be so disinclined to evolve to something better anymore.
The lucifer cannon is now retarded. It fires much faster but takes longer to charge, which kills what it does best: take out a base quickly, and makes it a better spam tool for killing aliens. It also makes it more difficult to perform the lucy hop, which is used in a million situations before, and almost none now.
It takes the same amount of time to charge if you charge it fully, which has made it less spammy and not any more difficult to luci jump with, so I really don't understand where you're coming from with this. And I only regularly use luci-jumping in one situation (on ATCS), not "in a million situations". Maybe you're playing on different maps than I am, and I'd be interested to know which ones I haven't been exposed to yet that are fun and balanced (and preferably not symmetric).
what, i ask you, was wrong with the current balance. Yes, maybe aliens win more, but is that a problem? I mean when i play as aliens or humans, i always have intense fun, and i find the game to be competitive until the last moment, and the fact that you may be beaten a few times more than often, did not distract from the fun of the game.
The new balance changes are terrible, sorry but its true. It is inaccesable to new users (as trem is a hard game to learn to play, and now it is even harder thanks to the balance changes) and really takes all the fun out of it.
I could list dozens of things wrong with 1.1 balance, both objective and subjective, but they wouldn't change your opinion. Calling the new changes terrible is an opinion, so it can't be either true or false; it's just how you feel. I disagree that we've made the game less accessible to new users because I think we've simplified more things than we've complicated (and what you see on the MGDev server doesn't include UI additions that will make some of the new complexities more intuitive). What I'm thinking of when I say we've simplified things include some very esoteric facets of the game that give advantages to people that have an extremely deep knowledge of the game -- I've tried to remove things like that wherever possible. I'm interested to know what people specifically think will make 1.2 less accessible than 1.1.
Seriously, i may stop playing trem if anything with similar balance changes ever sees the light of day.
I would be much happier if tremulous 1.2 just kept the same balance as 1.1
I fully expect to see a "Classic Trem" mod come out post-1.2. I just hope whoever gets together to create it doesn't do so out of a feeling of betrayal by the core developers, but out of an understanding that 1.1 wasn't the complete form of Tremulous that we wanted, and in the time between releases all of you have had to guess at what that more complete form would be. Some of you may disagree that anything needed changing, probably quite a lot will have expected or wanted different things, but the project is open source for this very reason. We started developing Tremulous (and hopefully sooner rather than later we will finish it to our satisfaction) and are taking it in our direction, but there's nothing stopping any of you from using it according to the terms of the license it's been released with. In my personal opinion, however, I wouldn't think too highly of such a project until 1.2 has actually been released and everyone has had a month or two to actually get acclimated to the changes.
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I have to disagree with amz, and say the opposite. I think this is too dumbed down, to the point where it's kinda stupid. Alright, a luci charge bar is nice and all, but a rant charge bar is basically pointless, and come on... a pounce bar....? Does even the noobies noob need this?
Fast luci spam seems horrible to me. Maybe if you made charged luci shots move *slightly* faster, that could be good, but these new luci shots can out speed a dretch (I think) maybe not, but definitely a granger, which just seems wrong.
Adv mara, while extremely fun, is just.... well dumb. This will get noobs excited. Oh boy, a weapon you don't even have to aim! As proved several times on the dev server, if you can get 3 other teammates to adv mara rush with you, not even the best bases even come close to standing a chance, what with this shock lighting and slow turrets.
I'm still trying to decide how I feel about alien regen too. The regen away from creep just seems unbearably slow. I get that it's supposed to be more hit and run, but how is hit, run, wait 5 min for health to get back to full, than hit again fun?
Also, I'm not liking the slowly give back bp after destruction idea. I know this is supposed to reward attackers, but being the last builder to escape and having points slowly trickle back ruins being able to rebuild just about.
I had some other points too, but I forgot them, I'll let you know if I remember them. I would appreciate if you tell some of your thoughts on some of the changes, I'd like to know what you think.
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Slanted edges now have wild-ass vertical force. It feels like you're playing on a trickjump server, and it makes it difficult to roam about with a goon.
I have no idea what you're talking about here; could you maybe describe a situation I could reproduce this in 1.1 and 1.2 to compare and understand?
in 1.1 jumping was simply setting velocity[2] to a constant (inherited from quake3), in svn (note that this wasn't an mgdev change, if lakitu7 had updated his game.qvm to recent svn instead of keeping it at 966, this would be on most servers) a jump is done by adding the normal vector times a constant to the velocity (note that wallwalkers always had these physics, and people have noticed and (ab)used it in 1.1)
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Also, I'm not liking the slowly give back bp after destruction idea. I know this is supposed to reward attackers, but being the last builder to escape and having points slowly trickle back ruins being able to rebuild just about.
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I disagree. This will prevent the dreaded egg spam upon base destruction on maps like Karith and Arachnid2. Trying to find the last and final egg on Arachnid2 and the freaking Granger that is running around spamming OMs and eggs is a boring nuisance.
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RE: Things I didn't quote:
Like Norf I'm still waiting to hear what's been made more complicated that outdoes the list of things that have been made less complicated.
I've yet to see evidence for new barricades still sucking. I've also yet to be blocked by then, even with a tyrant. Yes you shouldn't do something stupid like build them in front of the window room door in niveus, but overall they are a good idea in many/most bases and don't block anything, even tyrants. If you think otherwise your builder was not very used to how to use them yet.
I have to disagree with amz, and say the opposite. I think this is too dumbed down, to the point where it's kinda stupid. Alright, a luci charge bar is nice and all, but a rant charge bar is basically pointless, and come on... a pounce bar....? Does even the noobies noob need this?
Fast luci spam seems horrible to me. Maybe if you made charged luci shots move *slightly* faster, that could be good, but these new luci shots can out speed a dretch (I think) maybe not, but definitely a granger, which just seems wrong.
Adv mara, while extremely fun, is just.... well dumb. This will get noobs excited. Oh boy, a weapon you don't even have to aim! As proved several times on the dev server, if you can get 3 other teammates to adv mara rush with you, not even the best bases even come close to standing a chance, what with this shock lighting and slow turrets.
I'm still trying to decide how I feel about alien regen too. The regen away from creep just seems unbearably slow. I get that it's supposed to be more hit and run, but how is hit, run, wait 5 min for health to get back to full, than hit again fun?
Also, I'm not liking the slowly give back bp after destruction idea. I know this is supposed to reward attackers, but being the last builder to escape and having points slowly trickle back ruins being able to rebuild just about.
I had some other points too, but I forgot them, I'll let you know if I remember them. I would appreciate if you tell some of your thoughts on some of the changes, I'd like to know what you think.
Rant charge bar is actually fairly necessary as you would know by the number of people screwing it up before that went in, were you around for it. Hell, even in 1.1 where it's more simple in the first place I can count on one hand the number of players I've seen actually use trample to its full potential and most of them got it from my tutoring. A pounce bar is fairly useless yes but eh, why not? Custom HUDs exist for picky complaints like that.
If Adv. Mara is to good, then demonstrate it by coming and owning everyone with it. Then you'll see it get changed quickly. This already happened once with St. Anger and maras vs. humans. If you can't do this then your claim is invalid.
I don't know if you've noticed, but aliens can move very quickly! In fact, unless you're playing the largest of maps, you can get back to the base within 10 seconds from anywhere on the map. Personally I enjoy moving around more than sitting still anyway, so it works out to be a more active and exciting gameplay experience this way.
BP-regen is the newest tentative change so it's still being worked on heavily. That said, preventing egghunts, which are generally cited as a horrible and unfun part of 1.1, is a solution, not a problem. However, I do think that perhaps once BP-regen is solidified we could consider returning Granger speed to not be so slow, since regen should prevent egghunts sufficiently to no longer warrant such a lack of mobility too. Norf?
Norf I'd like for you to come play with me some time and I can explain what I mean.
As for the vertical force: play the map Niveus and watch as you slide around on the edges.
As for the dretch dying: I'm not talking about me dying as a dretch, Im talking about no dretch ever getting close to me. My strategy is not the error.
I agree with your point on the dretch speed. We've become so used to the speed we have than a change in either direction is like setting your mouse sens to something you arent used to. However, in the long run it will be beneficial to have the extra speed.
I still disagree with the lessening of the dretch headshot, since it just gave a sense of panic when I first started playing the game that made the game not boring. Also, I like the bite+poison kill, its one of the few things that can snag some evos off hardcore campers. And you must realize for anyone that can dodge, it makes it take three headshots, not two.
I also still disagree with the lessening of the dretch's HP, since shotgun tears it apart even if you have shitty aim.
My views on the dretch may be biased to "pro" players, because I'm envisioning a scrim situation. Even 4 dretches together can't take down a couple rifles.
Lucy jump = all the time. To get up into a base "lucy hop" or to get to the top of the middle and catch a running goon, or jump over a rant in hall, or cover a large distance quickly to get on the other side of a fleeing enemy. I'd love to personally show you this.
Another lucifer tactic is to fire a shot and walk with it as sort of a shield against goons. This can no longer be done.
What I mean by it being a better spam weapon, is when you come around the corner to h base, and see a full blast lucy in your face, you can get your ass out of there in 1.1. In 1.2 it's prolly gonna hit ya.
I think that if trem was really improving from the changes made(so far as what we've seen, that is), we wouldn't need this topic.
Kev explained the only thing I'm aware of regarding "vertical force." I'll have to look for what you're talking about as it doesn't sound like that's what you mean anymore.
Dretches are supposed to be worse, yes. They were overpowered and now they're not. Dieing more often as a dretch has been made less detrimental to your team so OMG FEEDING DRETCHES is actually less of an issue. I'm still uncertain about the changes to headshots myself, but so far I haven't been unhappy with the dretch. I think you're underestimating the effects of the hitbox sizes. You also haven't played dretch v shotty very much if you haven't noticed that shotty is significantly worse at one-shotting dretches due to the changes to it.
Luci isn't as good because it was a bit too good in certain situations. Did anyone *really* like watching newbs spam down the hall? That can't really happen anymore, which is certainly a good thing. However, none of our regular player set is a particularly devoted luci jumper in more than the "that one place on that one map" sense. I know what you mean, but it's not in my style so I can't demonstrate it very well. Show Norf what you're talking about and make a point. This is a reason why we have such a topic: we need players of different styles and skillsets to try things out and comment.
By your logic of "1.2 balance sucks because we need a topic to ask people to play it," 1.1 balance also sucks because we have far more people playing on X etc. than anything resembling it. As such, there are changes, and this topic.
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and come on... a pounce bar....? Does even the noobies noob need this?
I completely disagree with the standpoint that we should hide useful information that doesn't otherwise hurt the gameplay. Both the tyrant and charge bar show useful information that make the game less esoteric (more accessible).
As proved several times on the dev server, if you can get 3 other teammates to adv mara rush with you, not even the best bases even come close to standing a chance, what with this shock lighting and slow turrets.
Actually, if you've been playing recently you may have noticed a group of four higher-class aliens of any type can wreck most any human base. This is just teamwork you're talking about (also, try the teslas, they're improved over 1.1 and rather unfriendly to marauders). And to be honest, I haven't been completely satisfied with any of the iterations of the zap we've gone through. I have one more idea in mind, but changing it again at this point is an extremely low priority. And the current zap is only better than the slash when you have several targets (such as in a base) -- against actual humans it's almost always better to headslash.
I get that it's supposed to be more hit and run, but how is hit, run, wait 5 min for health to get back to full, than hit again fun?
The point of it was to even out the disparity in base-dependence between the teams. In 1.1 "hit-and-run" meant killing a turret then camping outside the human base until you had more health to do it again. Now (unless the aliens are using teamwork in the form of a basi or forward booster) aliens can actually be repelled by human defenders (which incidentally gives them a chance to leave their base and stop "camping!"). If you're choosing to sit around where your regen is 1/9 of what it could be (if a booster or advanced basilisk is available) then you're doing something wrong; as Lakitu said, aliens move quickly.
Lucy jump = all the time.
So did you not do this with fully charged blasts? Or did you have to do them in quick succession with smaller charges? Because that's all that's changed: you can't shoot half-charged shots more quickly than fully charged shots anymore. And in my experience this HAS signfiicantly cut down on luci spam (by which I mean effectively sealing off a hallway by continually shooting luci balls), so I wouldn't agree that it's a net loss.
BP-regen is the newest tentative change so it's still being worked on heavily. That said, preventing egghunts, which are generally cited as a horrible and unfun part of 1.1, is a solution, not a problem. However, I do think that perhaps once BP-regen is solidified we could consider returning Granger speed to not be so slow, since regen should prevent egghunts sufficiently to no longer warrant such a lack of mobility too. Norf?
The point of slowly-returning-build-points isn't to prevent egghunts (I thought we were successful enough doing that by making grangers slow); it's to enable waves of attacks to be successful against the enemy base. If a map is too large, then, without this, an entire base can be completely rebuilt/repaired by the time a second wave of attackers arrive. But it does also make egg spamming harder, so maybe we could up the granger speed a little. Thanks for the idea Lakitu.
You also haven't played dretch v shotty very much if you haven't noticed that shotty is significantly worse at one-shotting dretches due to the changes to it.
I initially (long, long ago) changed the number of pellets and damage per each to make the shotgun better at killing dretches (while retaining the same damage per second overall). Do you really think that change had the opposite effective?
Norf I'd like for you to come play with me some time and I can explain what I mean.
Next Saturday, ping me in #tremulous or #mercenariesguild and we can hop on the dev server an hour early (19:00 UTC, 14:00 EST), and/or find a (minimally modified) 1.1 server to compare with.
The best way to influence changes in 1.2 is to play the game with me and show me why things should be different. And make polite, reasoned arguments for your viewpoints (sort of like we're doing here, but with more playing on the test server).
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However, none of our regular player set is a particularly devoted luci jumper in more than the "that one place on that one map" sense.
*ahem*
luci has always been one of my favorite weapons, and i have no problems with the current version (ok, maybe the secondary repeat could come down a little, or just bring back the first revision of luci on trem.tjw.org (1.1 + 700ups + 60 ammo) ;D). luci jumping is no more difficult with the current version than the 1.1 version (other than a slight difference in timing)
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Lucy jump = all the time.
So did you not do this with fully charged blasts? Or did you have to do them in quick succession with smaller charges? Because that's all that's changed: you can't shoot half-charged shots more quickly than fully charged shots anymore. And in my experience this HAS signfiicantly cut down on luci spam (by which I mean effectively sealing off a hallway by continually shooting luci balls), so I wouldn't agree that it's a net loss.
BP-regen is the newest tentative change so it's still being worked on heavily. That said, preventing egghunts, which are generally cited as a horrible and unfun part of 1.1, is a solution, not a problem. However, I do think that perhaps once BP-regen is solidified we could consider returning Granger speed to not be so slow, since regen should prevent egghunts sufficiently to no longer warrant such a lack of mobility too. Norf?
The point of slowly-returning-build-points isn't to prevent egghunts (I thought we were successful enough doing that by making grangers slow); it's to enable waves of attacks to be successful against the enemy base. If a map is too large, then, without this, an entire base can be completely rebuilt/repaired by the time a second wave of attackers arrive. But it does also make egg spamming harder, so maybe we could up the granger speed a little. Thanks for the idea Lakitu.
You also haven't played dretch v shotty very much if you haven't noticed that shotty is significantly worse at one-shotting dretches due to the changes to it.
I initially (long, long ago) changed the number of pellets and damage per each to make the shotgun better at killing dretches (while retaining the same damage per second overall). Do you really think that change had the opposite effective?
From what I know of (mostly playing against) it, it's kind of a WHENEVER thing. In a duel of luci v goon or luci v rant, luci will use use luci jump basically like dodge in order to do damage + move in any direction including directly over the goon. Rant swipe time is certainly less than luci charge time, so partial charges are frequently used. If used to move back, then it can be followed by running backwards while spamming back to prevent the chase. One could argue that much of the duel functionality has been replaced by dodge (though without also doing damage) and that the spam-retreats were too good anyway, but admittedly dodge is less fun/leet :). I do feel like it was more fun to play *against* luci (aforementioned spamming newbs excepted) in 1.1 because there was a skill in dodging them that's difficult-impossible now, but I have no idea how these things could be brought back without also bringing back spam-down-the-hall newbs, which are detrimental enough that it's probably worth the sacrifice.
Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the DIRECT AND ONLY PURPOSE of bp-regen is preventing egghunts. Yes, it's definitely designed to generally reduce stalemates and don't-bother-attacking-until-SD type gameplay. Still, nobody really *enjoys* the granger speed nerfs, so I hope the balance works out such that we can put it back partially.
Logically the shotgun SHOULD be better with the changes you made but it unquantifiably felt like a nerf to me vs dretch at the time. Still it's a "feel" sort of thing so more opinions are welcome. Honestly though shotgun was a little too good for its price in 1.1 and dretches needed the help, so I never complained much. Also I admit that I haven't reevaluated this recently with successive changes to dretches (speed) so it may no longer be the case and I retract my harshness and matter-of-factness in declaring it worse.
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all of the things that youve said are well founded, and i can see where you are coming from, though i still dont agree. But i shall follow along for now.
One thing i will say, which definetly needs to be reverted or reviewed, no matter what viewpoint you have. The luci. I, a player who is rather terrible at trem, especially on the MGdev server (pro players :P), can get a load of kills when i get my hands on a luci with armour. I can easily get my credz back to 2000 even if i face some of the more skilled players, it too easy, it should be considered a cheat. The 1.1 luci was fine as it was... Insanely powerful, but slow to fire. Massive spread, but slow fire rate. Even in 1.1 you can regain your credz by merely killing drecthes, or taking down goons. It needed no tinkering as it was a very balanced weapon to start off with. If it was so detrimental to the hummies, why is it the most popular weapon then? Its not like the flamer, which could be very useful but is let down by too harsh of a recoil, and so clearly needs revision.
Moose> I was not talking about those things. Im talking about the fact that the learning curve for trem has become extremely steep with the proposed 1.2 changes. Humans, not so, but aliens... Ozzy made a very good point about the dretches, it is extremely hard for a newbish player like me to gain a kill, with the current speed. The devs, are clearly skilled players, and thus, are clearly blinded towards how hard it is for the less skilled players of trem, you may find it easy to kill at the current dretch speed, but i do not. Furthermore, a seemingly idiotic change (sorry if im turning a little rude, or rantish, but i really cant get my head around the supidity of it). No poison kill? Why? It is the only way for a person joining a game at s3 to get a kill. It really helps new people get kills. It helps me to get kills as a dretch. And yet it was removed.
My points arent nessacarily about balance, but the fun factor. No matter what the outcome of a game in trem, i nearly always have fun. With MGdev, i dont. I find myself getting annoyed at the fact i feed so much, that i cant get past dretch, and that when i do, i cant get kills because the hit window has been reduced to much, or at S3 i just have to run when a luci comes, or i die. And then, when playing as hummies, its the opposite. You know when you use a cheat in a game, it doesnt really seem that fun anymore. Thats exactly what i feel when i have luci helmet armour.
I suppose we'll never know till 1.2, though im pretty sure this will be bad for trem.
Can i make a suggestion, If after 1.2 is released, the trem population isnt inclined to the balance changes, can we count on a 1.2.1, as i feel a 1.1 mod would just minimise the amount of players.
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@Lakitu: Yeah, the shotgun was way too god for it's price in 1.1, but instead of making it worse, how about an appropriate increase in price?
Random idea regarding the mara zap: How about making it do 0 damage, and instead make it slow down / incapacitate turrets and other structures?
Some examples:
¤ Turrets will fire slower, or
¤ Turrets will take even longer to "lock on and fire", or
¤ The first turret in the zap chain will cease to work completely, the next will fire at 1/3 of the normal speed, the 2nd 2/3 etc.
¤ Disrupt the defense computer's warning system, allowing for a sneaky attack.
This would really promote teamwork in attacking.
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shotgun wasn't significantly nerfed (it lost 8 damage very recently), the dretch's bounding box got buffed, making it impossible to instantly kill any dretch approaching you before it got a chance to bite you (now, the dretch is still dead most likely, but it's guaranteed at least one hit on you)
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I don't get the dretch changes. It is harder to hit dretches but yet dretches have a harder time killing people. It seems like you making it impossible for new players to survive and succeed at stage 1. Unlagged goes a long way in balancing out dretches in terms of their effectiveness. But I don't see how the human team says the same but the alien team is where the changes are made.
Dretches can't be played hit and run or as skirmish enemies (like maras). Dretches have to kill or be killed. Medikits and ranged weapons (later helmets) make hit run nil for dretches. Sure, I don't like get swarmed by dretches or pecked to death by a persistent dretch but that's the reward for working hard. I hate to see the stage 1 match ups with the new dretches versus a human with decent aim.
And personally, I think alien regen really tilts the game heavily on the human side. Any human that chases is pretty much guaranteed a kill. Couple that with helmets and attacking the human base is suicide. As stated in the past, if you nerf regen you have to buff health for aliens.
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I don't get the dretch changes. It is harder to hit dretches but yet dretches have a harder time killing people. It seems like you making it impossible for new players to survive and succeed at stage 1. Unlagged goes a long way in balancing out dretches in terms of their effectiveness. But I don't see how the human team says the same but the alien team is where the changes are made.
Dretches can't be played hit and run or as skirmish enemies (like maras). Dretches have to kill or be killed. Medikits and ranged weapons (later helmets) make hit run nil for dretches. Sure, I don't like get swarmed by dretches or pecked to death by a persistent dretch but that's the reward for working hard. I hate to see the stage 1 match ups with the new dretches versus a human with decent aim.
And personally, I think alien regen really tilts the game heavily on the human side. Any human that chases is pretty much guaranteed a kill. Couple that with helmets and attacking the human base is suicide. As stated in the past, if you nerf regen you have to buff health for aliens.
there have been plenty of versions where aliens, even with nerfed regen, were overpowered (like the one where two +goons could take out a human base easily even with 6 or more campers defending it)
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I just hope you're not changing too many things at once. If you're having trouble finding a balance, you might want to try making smaller changes.
It's quite easy to make a new trem that only the newbies and the oldies that made it care about because that'll be the trem they adjust to. If you can make a trem that a large portion of the oldies care about too then you will have accomplished something. To do this it needs to still be fun after 'mastering' it.
The slow, no-aim-zap marauder tells me the focus isn't on us older players who enjoy the swift mara and who know when to use the zap, but is instead on the newer players who would prefer to spam an auto-aim attack to the extent that the secondary moves is used more than the primary. It's as clever and comfortable as strapping a tesla generator to your back.
In fact all the alien secondary attacks have become very easy to use/spam. Compare how easily the basi slows humans with gas to the granger spit. There's the auto-aiming mara zap and the splash damage barbs or the easy-charge trample.
Personally, I just don't like these things being dumbed down. To end this on a positive note, I like the human dodge change because it gives something to master rather than taking it away. That and it's just FAST (more fast please).
Additional note: Please don't sacrifice what makes the game fun in order to try and balance humans and aliens. I personally don't mind a bit of bias if having the disadvantage can still be fun.
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Game in 15 minutes on the US server (dev.tremulous.net).
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After messing with mara in devmap for about 30 mins, I can adress Nux's complaint.
Initially after messing with it I felt the same, actually. I declared that I was going to push for reverting that change. The shorter jump makes it feel slower when I try to play the same as in 1.1.
However, the timing is different, but the old speeds are still equally possible if not faster ones. Shorter jumps mean you can walljump more often and obtain higher speeds. You need to hit the button more often than you did in 1.1. That (combined with the other physics changes) also lets you hop straight up a wall very quickly, so most of the old trickjumps fail at the old timings a corner, but work if you just go straight up.
As for whether or not it's too easy to hit: that goes back to "If it's too good, then show up and own everyone with it unfairly and watch it get nerfed."
However I encourage you to fool around with the move speeds and I think you will eventually come to the same conclusion.
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It seems like every other week hits on mara go from good to ok to bad to great, etc. But as far as zap goes I could care less, I always found it worthless and I still do. But mara's being slow now really nerfs mara bigtime imo. Trying to run away from humans is almost pointless now, should just fight til the death. It takes away the whole image of marauders being swift hit and run attackers.
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As for whether or not it's too easy to hit: that goes back to "If it's too good, then show up and own everyone with it unfairly and watch it get nerfed."
To be clear, I'm not saying that the new mara zap- among other such changes -is overpowered. Many changes can be made that are 'balanced' statistically.
I'm saying that the new zap is easy. I don't like moves that do the work for you. I don't find them fun.
As a player who enjoys the 'dancing' side of gameplay; where your opponents dodging ability can trump your aiming ability, I'm not happy to be given attacks that subvert this defense completely. I'd much prefer the new moves to reward ingenuity and skill.
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Nux++, easy is boring. :(
The same applies for the flamer, a really boring weapon that does all the work for you.
On another note, stage 3 is still horribly boring as well.
They effectively remove any use of the non-stage3 classes/weapons since you wont stand a chance against stage 3 opponents if you roll with the lower stages. (Well, except for maybe one basi on your team only acting as a booster)
The most boring class is definitely the rant, being massive in it's size everything can hit it, and it can hit everything too. On the human side of boring we got the chainsuit. Facing a couple of chainsuits the only class you can go with is a rant, since the massive knockback they generate is enough to push back any other alien out of attack range.
Compare this to stage 1 and 2 where you can see a big variety of aliens and humans fighting. Stage 3 really limits your choices, and unfortunately those classes are rather boring and requires way less skill than stage 1 and 2.
In short, stage 1 and 2: Dancing with the enemy, using a big variety of weapons or classes with every class/weapon being good in a specific situation.
Stage 3: Humans using either the chainsuit with lots of life and a weapon requiring a lot less aiming or the luci, and the aliens with the rants mauling everything and getting shot by everything.
(Yes - this is nothing new for MGDev, and was as boring in 1.1 too)
Some random ideas (I know this wont happen, but it complements the post):
¤ The chainsuit focuses on speed rather than health and a steady chaingun. For example it could give more stamina for +button6, or just be slightly faster in general.
¤ The rant removed and replaced with a class the size of the goon, but faster and/or stronger attacks with some unique feature. (Actually, it could have something like the rants maul, be smaller and have less health)
If anything, it could be tested and reverted back if it sucked.
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#define LEVEL2_SPEED 1.2f
#define LEVEL2_SPEED 1.2f
marauder speed is the same, and the 1.1 jump height is more a detriment than a benefit to actually gaining large speeds.
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#define LEVEL2_SPEED 1.2f
#define LEVEL2_SPEED 1.2f
marauder speed is the same, and the 1.1 jump height is more a detriment than a benefit to actually gaining large speeds.
All I can speak for is how it 'feels'. If the mara is still/more agile and I'm just not using it right then that's fine. Otherwise, if the mara is only agile in specific situations (such as when there are convenient walls to use) there could still be a problem.
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#define LEVEL2_SPEED 1.2f
#define LEVEL2_SPEED 1.2f
marauder speed is the same, and the 1.1 jump height is more a detriment than a benefit to actually gaining large speeds.
All I can speak for is how it 'feels'. If the mara is still/more agile and I'm just not using it right then that's fine. Otherwise, if the mara is only agile in specific situations (such as when there are convenient walls to use) there could still be a problem.
the (accidental, so it might be changed in the future) change to walljump makes *all* walls convenient.
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Perhaps a couple of demos could illustrate my point.
Any objections? Anyone interested?
Edit: Oh and btw, you've stopped the humans from bunny hopping after dodge? I LIKED that feature. Why stop something that's fun, fast and somewhat hard to master? (mastering it would mean being able to change direction quickly and react to threats while maintaining the hop)
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Updated by Norfenstein 15 days ago
This is just bunnyhopping starting with a dodge (which necessarily has to be sideways or backwards to start).
I've seen this maneuver done a few times in game and it feels really wrong for humans to be able to fly away from aliens so fast; stamina isn't enough of a limit.
So, considering that the whole point of human movement was to not have this sort of thing for humans, I would like to have it removed. I assume the same restriction (HUMAN_DODGE_TIMEOUT?) on re-dodging can be applied to jumping after a dodge?
^Why it was removed. More people need to share their opinions on the issue tracker, trust me - you CAN affect change (in fact several of the comments here have changed things)
Khalsa
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Ok thanks khalsa.
I'll try to use the issue tracker more but I'll mention here that for me it doesn't feel 'wrong'. Though it might not make much realism sense, it makes tonnes of gaming sense. Do you value realism more than gameplay?
I feel that having this ability could really help games become much more interesting once people get used to it. It might even help reduce camping if the humans can speed across the map like the aliens can.
Bear in mind that I am an experienced player, and enjoy the challenges of facing a fast target as much as being the fast target.
Idea: Would I be able to book the EuroMGDev server for some time between now and the next dev game? And would I be able to have the bunny-hop feature back to normal, as well as UL off and FF on? I would like to hold a few matches on it and am interested to see what scrims will be like with these fast humans (after a bit of practice with it). I won't mind spectators but I'd like to select who plays (top-clan members for added teamplay).
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Perhaps a couple of demos could illustrate my point.
Any objections? Anyone interested?
Edit: Oh and btw, you've stopped the humans from bunny hopping after dodge? I LIKED that feature. Why stop something that's fun, fast and somewhat hard to master? (mastering it would mean being able to change direction quickly and react to threats while maintaining the hop)
mainly because getting 928 ups instantly was stupid.
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Is it stupid? I'd be impressed if a player can shoot accurately at such a speed and it would be hard to react very fast after you were unexpectedly blocked by an alien.
Seems to me going at high speeds isn't always a good thing. And if this bunny-hop is too good, I'd like to see it tweaked (slow them down or lower thier stamina) rather than stopped completely. How are we went to make progress if we don't try to refine rather than remove.
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Is it stupid? I'd be impressed if a player can shoot accurately at such a speed and it would be hard to react very fast after you were unexpectedly blocked by an alien.
Seems to me going at high speeds isn't always a good thing. And if this bunny-hop is too good, I'd like to see it tweaked (slow them down or lower thier stamina) rather than stopped completely. How are we went to make progress if we don't try to refine rather than remove.
it wasn't how dodge was meant to work, and things like reducing stamina are more limitting than this (3 jumps->6 has been one of the best received changes on trem.tjw.org and mgdev). i could clamp your velocity to 320 when you land a dodge, but then what's the point?
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Nux, While fast is good indeed, that was an exploit, and imho allowing certain moves by exploiting physics is bad.
Those moves should be there by design if anything.
(No, i don't like stafejump either, even if i exploit it all the time :)
Edit: I really liked your idea on organized games btw, and i would of course participate.
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So long as the 'exploit' is fun, fair and well known I don't see any problem with it :]
Personally, I reserve the word 'exploit' for when such unexpected features are grossly unbalancing and not fun for anyone (barring the more sadistic kind of player). I don't see this as necessarily unfair and think it could be quite fun (as the dodger and the dodgee, alike).
Why should it matter if you intended to make lead when you ended up with gold?
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Of course, if it ended up as something good.
But does it really make sense being able to accelerate up to ridiculous speeds that fast? And does it look good when players dodge-jump around the map?
You can also only do it backwards which doesn't make any sense at all.
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Well I'm willing to give it a chance :] Let's see if super-speedy-humans can make a clan-style match more interesting ;)
So can I has book?
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Just pop into IRC when you want it and I'm sure it can be arranged then. We do most everything on IRC.
Khalsa
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Well I'm willing to give it a chance :] Let's see if super-speedy-humans can make a clan-style match more interesting ;)
So can I has book?
i've had this conversation so many times that i've lost count:
"pro" player: mgdev is broken in clan matches
me: would you like to play an actual match so we can see that and fix it?
"pro": no
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I can put up Lak's Testing Zone with mgdev on request for folks that want to do the same on American-side. You'll have to bug one of these folks about it for Euro though.
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I can put up Lak's Testing Zone with mgdev on request for folks that want to do the same on American-side. You'll have to bug one of these folks about it for Euro though.
>< is interested, we'll send someone to talk to you.
and otic says he loves you :-X :turret:
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I can put up Lak's Testing Zone with mgdev on request for folks that want to do the same on American-side. You'll have to bug one of these folks about it for Euro though.
>< is interested, we'll send someone to talk to you.
and otic says he loves you :-X :turret:
you're welcome to use the regular mgdev as well as long as you don't interrupt any existing games (or come by #mg and ask and i will probably be able to password mgdev2 for you)
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I can put up Lak's Testing Zone with mgdev on request for folks that want to do the same on American-side. You'll have to bug one of these folks about it for Euro though.
>< is interested, we'll send someone to talk to you.
and otic says he loves you :-X :turret:
you're welcome to use the regular mgdev as well as long as you don't interrupt any existing games (or come by #mg and ask and i will probably be able to password mgdev2 for you)
I'll hop on IRC, I talked to Tmler breifly in game today about it. I would love to get some regular >< vs AoD matches going on mg dev to see how it goes. It wont do a whole lot considering >< will rape us, but at least we can see more of how the potential 1.2 clan matching will induce.
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I can put up Lak's Testing Zone with mgdev on request for folks that want to do the same on American-side. You'll have to bug one of these folks about it for Euro though.
>< is interested, we'll send someone to talk to you.
and otic says he loves you :-X :turret:
you're welcome to use the regular mgdev as well as long as you don't interrupt any existing games (or come by #mg and ask and i will probably be able to password mgdev2 for you)
I'll hop on IRC, I talked to Tmler breifly in game today about it. I would love to get some regular >< vs AoD matches going on mg dev to see how it goes. It wont do a whole lot considering >< will rape us, but at least we can see more of how the potential 1.2 clan matching will induce.
would be fun, we could switch it up and do some pickup games too.
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I can put up Lak's Testing Zone with mgdev on request for folks that want to do the same on American-side. You'll have to bug one of these folks about it for Euro though.
>< is interested, we'll send someone to talk to you.
and otic says he loves you :-X :turret:
you're welcome to use the regular mgdev as well as long as you don't interrupt any existing games (or come by #mg and ask and i will probably be able to password mgdev2 for you)
I'll hop on IRC, I talked to Tmler breifly in game today about it. I would love to get some regular >< vs AoD matches going on mg dev to see how it goes. It wont do a whole lot considering >< will rape us, but at least we can see more of how the potential 1.2 clan matching will induce.
would be fun, we could switch it up and do some pickup games too.
Yeah great idea, I'll make a post on your forums since we don't currently have one and see about setting up some times.
Then I'll see what AoDians I can round up from msn/aim.
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Stuff about t3 being boring
I agree with this. t3 seems a bit boring, the t1/t2 stage is more fun.
Not sure how to fix this though. Adding 'flavour' to t3 is pretty vague :(
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Totally agree. Stages 1 and 2 are always more fun than stage 3.
I'll bitch one last time then leave this 1.2 issue alone forever. I'd be a whole lot more excited for the changes if something was finally done to stop human camping. I know all the arguments about alien regeneration and the counter balance of having slower rets. But nerfing alien regeneration is just that, a nerf. A pretty one-sided nerf. Humans don't have to change anything about how they play, in fact, camping is just as effective as before. Aliens are left with an even stepper hill to climb to beat a less skilled human team that can just spam from inside the base indefinitely.
The devs have a pretty hard solution to stop aliens from corner camping but nothing to stop humans from base camping. Any justification you can use to avoid addressing this imbalance can be used to justify faster alien regeneration.
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Totally agree. Stages 1 and 2 are always more fun than stage 3.
I'll bitch one last time then leave this 1.2 issue alone forever. I'd be a whole lot more excited for the changes if something was finally done to stop human camping. I know all the arguments about alien regeneration and the counter balance of having slower rets. But nerfing alien regeneration is just that, a nerf. A pretty one-sided nerf. Humans don't have to change anything about how they play, in fact, camping is just as effective as before. Aliens are left with an even stepper hill to climb to beat a less skilled human team that can just spam from inside the base indefinitely.
The devs have a pretty hard solution to stop aliens from corner camping but nothing to stop humans from base camping. Any justification you can use to avoid addressing this imbalance can be used to justify faster alien regeneration.
Lies. Humans camping = Humans dead/feeding.
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Lies. Humans camping = Humans dead/feeding.
I would agree with you if the camping humans can't dodge because they're crammed together with thier compact base.
However, with more spaced out defenses the humans are free to dodge if they choose and only benefit from the defenses around them. Funnily enough, it's this spaced out layout that I'm told- by devs and supporters alike -allows the new turrets to be much more effective.
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However, with more spaced out defenses the humans are free to dodge if they choose and only benefit from the defenses around them. Funnily enough, it's this spaced out layout that I'm told- by devs and supporters alike -allows the new turrets to be much more effective.
Truths! However unlike in 1.1 where a well made base + camping humans = impenetrable defence, a planned attack can still take camping humans out (I've done it a plenitude of times [Admittedly not in the last 3 weeks though, so maybe it's changed])
Khalsa
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I'm saying that the new zap is easy. I don't like moves that do the work for you. I don't find them fun.
As a player who enjoys the 'dancing' side of gameplay; where your opponents dodging ability can trump your aiming ability, I'm not happy to be given attacks that subvert this defense completely. I'd much prefer the new moves to reward ingenuity and skill.
The zap is quite lousy versus human players, you're much better off using the slash and getting headshots. The real point of it is to be effective against multiple targets -- especially those without locational damage -- i.e. a base. The "skill" of using it is staying alive long enough in a human base to take some structures down. That said, I've never really been satisfied with any of the different zap iterations we've gone through.
Do you value realism more than gameplay?
Of course not, and I left this dodgehopping in until I saw it used in game and felt it wasn't fun. This may just be a difference of opinion. Question, though: have you had it used against you in game? Because...
Is it stupid? I'd be impressed if a player can shoot accurately at such a speed and it would be hard to react very fast after you were unexpectedly blocked by an alien.
I don't seen any one using this and caring about shooting at the same time. I'd expect it be used solely for putting a huge distance between yourself and whatever alien you don't want to fight anymore. It felt cheap in other words, like having a teleporter to get you out of a fight.
But if you get that clan match together please have everyone record demos! I'd be very interested in how it play out.
Game on Euro dev (edev.tremulous.net) in 45 minutes.
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The "skill" of using it is staying alive long enough in a human base to take some structures down.
Surely that "skill" isn't special to zap and you might as well be saying "it's hard to stay alive long enough in a human base to take some structures down." So is zap effective at taking structures down too? Does that give you anything to learn or does it just mean not aiming at your targets?
But if you get that clan match together please have everyone record demos! I'd be very interested in how it play out.
I'll be happy to do so!
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What's the odds of getting server side demo on the dev servers?
Is it going to be in 1.2?
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Here's my 2 cents after playing a few games the last couple weeks.
Stuff I like:
- Stage 2 advanced goon.
Aliens desperately needed an improved attack at S2. Too often they're forced to just wait until S3 before they can mount a decent attack against camping humans.
- Turret changes are nice
- Faster pulse rifle. I always thought it was ridiculous how easily aliens could basically outrun the laser blasts.
- Changes to alien healing. New healing method encourages teamwork and forward building.
- Nerfed rant HP
- Improved mara zap. It could still use some improvement, but *anything* is an improvement over the 1.1 mara zap. I almost never use it.
Stuff I don't like:
- Dretch changes. I feel that dretches vs. rifles is one of the most fun stages of the game in 1.1, and the 1.2 dretch changes feel wrong to me. Also there seem to be conflicting changes going on. They're faster and smaller, which make them nastier opponents... but then they also have less health and do less damage, making them easier. What's your goal here? Those changes seem to cancel each other out balance-wise, but the game becomes less fun overall because both dretches and humans have a harder time killing each other.
- Human dodging system. Maybe it's an acquired taste... I haven't acquired it yet. If you're determined to implement dodging then I would prefer a system which is consistent with Unreal Tournament's dodging system. Dodging is performed by double-tapping a movement key rather than using a separate bind. It feels a LOT more natural.
- Dretches can't hurt turrets? That just slows down the game IMO.
Stuff I'm not quite sure about:
- Mara movement changes. Marauder is my favorite class in 1.1, primarily for its maneuverability. Consequently this is a sensitive issue for me :)
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- Dretches can't hurt turrets? That just slows down the game IMO.
no one is particularly happy with this, but with the new turrets dretches were overpowered (a certain punjabi developer who shall not be named could take out an entire human base in 3 dretches)
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Surely that "skill" isn't special to zap and you might as well be saying "it's hard to stay alive long enough in a human base to take some structures down." So is zap effective at taking structures down too? Does that give you anything to learn or does it just mean not aiming at your targets?
Well, it is somewhat different than the normal base assaulting skill. When using a primary weapon the tactic is to find a blind spot where only one turret can spot you, take it out, and repeat (or, if you can, find a nook that isn't covered by turrets). The zap is basically an area-effect weapon, so you want to bounce around near multiple structures, actively dodging turret fire.
When we finally settled on this version of the zap (after several other iterations) my thinking was that it'd be better for it to do damage over time so marauders couldn't just hit-and-run continuously, but I agree that it hasn't turned out as fun as it deserves to be. The key point is that aliens need an area effect weapon, and the zap is the most suitable place for it, so any form of the zap should be better against multiple targets than single ones (don't want to make the slash obsolete too).
- Dretch changes. I feel that dretches vs. rifles is one of the most fun stages of the game in 1.1, and the 1.2 dretch changes feel wrong to me. Also there seem to be conflicting changes going on. They're faster and smaller, which make them nastier opponents... but then they also have less health and do less damage, making them easier. What's your goal here? Those changes seem to cancel each other out balance-wise, but the game becomes less fun overall because both dretches and humans have a harder time killing each other.
The hitbox reduction was made by tjw a long time ago to make the model and hitbox line up better (the model is also bigger), and I've basically never reevaluated it (but did balance it around it somewhat). I think for next week I'm going to try reverting the hitbox and health. The damage reduction I feel good about, because 96 damage for one headshot was too powerful (if you took more than 3 points of damage from any source you had to waste your medkit in order to survive a dretch ambush). It's still two headshots for unarmoured humans. The speed increase I could go either way on.
- Human dodging system. Maybe it's an acquired taste... I haven't acquired it yet. If you're determined to implement dodging then I would prefer a system which is consistent with Unreal Tournament's dodging system. Dodging is performed by double-tapping a movement key rather than using a separate bind. It feels a LOT more natural.
It does take some getting used to, but now that I have I don't think it feels unnatural. And I, at least, prefer the control of a separate bind to having to jam on the directional keys to dodge. Would be interested to know whether or not you you change your mind after using it some more.
- Mara movement changes. Marauder is my favorite class in 1.1, primarily for its maneuverability. Consequently this is a sensitive issue for me :)
It's been a long time since I played 1.1, but I don't know what's gotten worse about the marauder movement. I think it's been dramatically improved actually (can actually walljump off slanted walls now, and it can scale vertical walls pretty easily). The lower jump height was a requested change to make marauders less "floaty" in combat -- the less time you spend in the air the more control you have to dodge.
- Dretches can't hurt turrets? That just slows down the game IMO.
no one is particularly happy with this, but with the new turrets dretches were overpowered (a certain punjabi developer who shall not be named could take out an entire human base in 3 dretches)
Would really like to hear possible solutions for this. I'm happy with turrets versus everything else, but we can't just make the dretch huge or slow to compensate, so I'm not sure what to do. Short of introducing Gloom-style blob turrets, that is.
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Well, it is somewhat different than the normal base assaulting skill. When using a primary weapon the tactic is to find a blind spot where only one turret can spot you, take it out, and repeat (or, if you can, find a nook that isn't covered by turrets).
Ahem. THE tactic? When I'm facing turrets (especially in mgdev) I don't depend on there being blindspots and definitely don't stick around on one turret. It's so much more effective to keep moving (keeping them moving) and slash at all that you pass by.
The key point is that aliens need an area effect weapon...
They NEED one? Sure it might make things more/less interesting but I wouldn't say it's in anyway required.
How about a compromise. Make the "area of effect" the area in front of the mara. At least that way you have to keep as many targets on screen as possible.
It's been a long time since I played 1.1, but I don't know what's gotten worse about the marauder movement.
In that case I recommend you get refreshed with the 1.1 style so as not to forget what was good about it. Since you're hoping for people to switch over to this version, you should try to avoid making anything feel like a step back.
Would really like to hear possible solutions for this. I'm happy with turrets versus everything else, but we can't just make the dretch huge or slow to compensate, so I'm not sure what to do. Short of introducing Gloom-style blob turrets, that is.
Hold on. As far as I'm aware, the turrets were changed to allow dretches to more easily enter the base so as to reduce camp and that there was otherwise no problem with the originals either. If you don't want them to enter the base so easily then surely you just need to make them more like the old turrets.
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Give the turrets a secondary zap attack that's very short range, but can't penetrate larger aliens armour.
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The damage reduction I feel good about, because 96 damage for one headshot was too powerful (if you took more than 3 points of damage from any source you had to waste your medkit in order to survive a dretch ambush).
I would agree that the 1.1 dretch deals out a bit too much damage. However, have you considered that it might just be a side-effect of easy head-bites from the ground? I always thought it was kindof silly that dretches could bite your head without jumping. If they had to jump then the damage might be less of an issue.
And I, at least, prefer the control of a separate bind to having to jam on the directional keys to dodge. Would be interested to know whether or not you you change your mind after using it some more.
I'll play around with it a bit more and see if I can get used to it. The UT system is just what I was exposed to first, so it's hard to expunge it from my brain.
Would really like to hear possible solutions for this. I'm happy with turrets versus everything else, but we can't just make the dretch huge or slow to compensate, so I'm not sure what to do. Short of introducing Gloom-style blob turrets, that is.
If turrets suck vs. dretch then there will finally be a reason to build teslas. Personally I don't have a problem with dretches being able to tear apart bases. An unoccupied base ought to be a dead base.
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The damage reduction I feel good about, because 96 damage for one headshot was too powerful (if you took more than 3 points of damage from any source you had to waste your medkit in order to survive a dretch ambush).
I would agree that the 1.1 dretch deals out a bit too much damage. However, have you considered that it might just be a side-effect of easy head-bites from the ground? I always thought it was kindof silly that dretches could bite your head without jumping. If they had to jump then the damage might be less of an issue.
we tried that very early (long before mgdev), and people hated it.
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Also, teslas rule now. Sadly you need to be s2...
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Hold on. As far as I'm aware, the turrets were changed to allow dretches to more easily enter the base so as to reduce camp and that there was otherwise no problem with the originals either. If you don't want them to enter the base so easily then surely you just need to make them more like the old turrets.
That wasn't the point at all. I felt that turrets were too uninteresting: depending on the situation they were either too effective (lined up where they wouldn't have to aim) or too ineffective (anywhere they could be manuevered around). The change was intended to make them more flexible for both human builders and alien attackers, and I think we've been successful at that.
In that case I recommend you get refreshed with the 1.1 style so as not to forget what was good about it. Since you're hoping for people to switch over to this version, you should try to avoid making anything feel like a step back.
Could you enumerate what specifically you felt was good about 1.1 that hasn't been carried over to 1.2, so I know what to focus on?
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Well even if it wasn't the point it's still a possible solution. Perhaps there's a midpoint between the old and the new turrets that you didn't fully test? I'm just wary of adding another radical change to solve a small problem.
For me personally, everything about the old version apart from s3 was great. I enjoyed FF on (which it seems you don't), sd off and unlagged off (where yet again you seem to differ). I liked the smaller dretch models and the faster bite rate. I liked the old turrets and I liked the old creep. I also liked the swifter mara (at least under my control, the mgdev mara is definately slower) and if you could demonstrate how to use it fast on a specific route in demo-form, I'd be happy to show you how the older mara is faster on that same route (provided you don't just make the route vertical which IMO isn't all that useful in-game). There are probably other things but I can't think of anything else offhand.
Making s3 more fair but most importantly more fun is where I think you should be focusing your efforts.
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That wasn't the point at all. I felt that turrets were too uninteresting: depending on the situation they were either too effective (lined up where they wouldn't have to aim) or too ineffective (anywhere they could be manuevered around). The change was intended to make them more flexible for both human builders and alien attackers, and I think we've been successful at that.
Not to be a thread shitter but....
that sounds like revisionist history. The way you presented the rets to the community was that they would better at defending the base (structures) but not defending the humans. So they are slower but hit harder, forcing aliens and humans to have to move when near the base.
You may have been thinking that rets are boring but you didn't communicate that when the change was first introduced.
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what i think needs to be done.
-Dretch reverted, it was fine in 1.1, and though you may say it was way to powerful. I can take out most dretches 1 v 1 with a hummie rifle. I'd even go as far to say that rifles hummies are too powerful, as a scenario is often witnessed when a load of hummies do an early rush and get s2 in a minute. But either way, dretch changes should be reverted, they were fine as they were in 1.1, fun, and pretty much balanced.
-Poison kill, needs to come back. It really helps joining at a s2 or s3 game for dretches, and is an asset. Med packs are more than a match for poison, and it seems stupid to change two balanced coutnerparts.
-Laser rifle. A good change. Laser rifle was barely used as a skilled dretch could get right in your face.
-Luci. Needs to be changed back, though many players may say they like it, as i have said many times before it has been turned into a god tool. I see no reason for it to be upgraded, as it was a good enough weapon before hand, easily regaining your credz which you used to buy it. Probably the most obvious change.
-Rant. I agree with the 350hp, however the regeneration rate is far too slow. It should not be as quick as 1.1 but it is far too slow. A player shouldnt be out of play for so long, it just isnt fun anymore. I say a semi fast regen rate, and when you boosterised it should be 1.1 regen. Not only will this be more balanced but it will increase the importance of forward bases.
-Regen Auras. No, no, no, no. It is cruel to ask any alien at S3 to go basi. Why? Unless your super pro you will die quickly. Unless your super pro you will not get many kills. And you will block, and be tked, just because of getting in the way, even if you only want to help. Like with the rant, you are removing the fun from the game, for the sake of making things more balanced.
Turrets. I dont really know. I actively havent seen any difference to the rets outputs, they still seem to kill and get destroyed the same rate. But if you say they make a difference, i shall take your word. One point however, it is extremely easy to jump the RC now, now that theres a charge p period.
You seem to be sacrificing the fun factor for alot of your changes. And gimping the aliens far too much. Things really need to change.
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that sounds like revisionist history. The way you presented the rets to the community was that they would better at defending the base (structures) but not defending the humans. So they are slower but hit harder, forcing aliens and humans to have to move when near the base.
You may have been thinking that rets are boring but you didn't communicate that when the change was first introduced.
Well there's a lot you could say about poor communication, but turrets were among the very first things I wanted to address after 1.1 (and did so on TJW's server, before everything MGDev), so it doesn't surprise me that the original intention has gotten lost.
Dev game in 15 minutes, on the US server (dev.tremulous.net).
Two important changes:
- Dretch health and bounding box reverted to 1.1 values. We'll see how this plays out with their other changes.
- The spawn bug is fixed
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-Regen Auras. No, no, no, no. It is cruel to ask any alien at S3 to go basi. Why? Unless your super pro you will die quickly. Unless your super pro you will not get many kills. And you will block, and be tked, just because of getting in the way, even if you only want to help. Like with the rant, you are removing the fun from the game, for the sake of making things more balanced.
and who asks aliens at s3 to go granger? who can tell how many kill will they get?
you see, its not about the kills its about teamwork... and only if you are "super pro" will win when their teamwork was close to none(unless of course the other team had some). And tyrants wont trample basis for one simple reason... they will know that no basi means no healing and no healing means quick fail. And basis will try to use god damn wall walk so that they wont block once and for all.
Removing the fun from the game? what fun? being a killwhore? good teamwork brings much more fun than that.
I would go all way up, so that boost give minimal healing and basi 2x that much
PS. I love new turrets but I'm having some hard time placing it so they 1)wont get to close to entrance (eaten by tyrants) and yet 2) not to far (adv goons are out of range)
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what i think needs to be done.
-Dretch reverted, it was fine in 1.1, and though you may say it was way to powerful. I can take out most dretches 1 v 1 with a hummie rifle. I'd even go as far to say that rifles hummies are too powerful, as a scenario is often witnessed when a load of hummies do an early rush and get s2 in a minute. But either way, dretch changes should be reverted, they were fine as they were in 1.1, fun, and pretty much balanced.
Agree
-Poison kill, needs to come back. It really helps joining at a s2 or s3 game for dretches, and is an asset. Med packs are more than a match for poison, and it seems stupid to change two balanced coutnerparts.
WHAT? Poison deaths were removed?! That's moronic.
-Laser rifle. A good change. Laser rifle was barely used as a skilled dretch could get right in your face.
You mean pulse rifle?
-Luci. Needs to be changed back, though many players may say they like it, as i have said many times before it has been turned into a god tool. I see no reason for it to be upgraded, as it was a good enough weapon before hand, easily regaining your credz which you used to buy it. Probably the most obvious change.
The luci is fucked. Can't hardly do anything with it *at all* anymore.
-Rant. I agree with the 350hp, however the regeneration rate is far too slow. It should not be as quick as 1.1 but it is far too slow. A player shouldnt be out of play for so long, it just isnt fun anymore. I say a semi fast regen rate, and when you boosterised it should be 1.1 regen. Not only will this be more balanced but it will increase the importance of forward bases.
No comment, as I am not a tyrant user.
-Regen Auras. No, no, no, no. It is cruel to ask any alien at S3 to go basi. Why? Unless your super pro you will die quickly. Unless your super pro you will not get many kills. And you will block, and be tked, just because of getting in the way, even if you only want to help. Like with the rant, you are removing the fun from the game, for the sake of making things more balanced.
Personally, I dont even think about said auras.
Turrets. I dont really know. I actively havent seen any difference to the rets outputs, they still seem to kill and get destroyed the same rate. But if you say they make a difference, i shall take your word. One point however, it is extremely easy to jump the RC now, now that theres a charge p period.
Indeed. Now you will see every Tom, Dick, and kevlarman hopping your RC. No fun when your builder is retarded and builds all your rets somewhere else, or hell, even with your rets in base but not protecting RC!
You seem to be sacrificing the fun factor for alot of your changes. And gimping the aliens far too much. Things really need to change.
The aliens seen as a whole are really fucked. Honestly, 1.1 was very balanced. 1.2 is not even the same game anymore. Call it something else.
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I agree with the luci change, it helps with the s3 vs s3 situation: A rant is now equal to a lucisuit, whereas in 1.1 any noob rant could easily take out nearly any lucisuit.
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I agree with the luci change, it helps with the s3 vs s3 situation: A rant is now equal to a lucisuit, whereas in 1.1 any noob rant could easily take out nearly any lucisuit.
really? you think a 1.2 rant and a 1.2 lucisuit are = ?
i will personally offer to show you that a nub like me, can kill you 9/10 times with a luci suit with the current 1.2 changes.
Admittedly lucis couldnt really take on a rant in 1.1, but that was because i always saw lucis as support weapons, weapons which induced teamwork. That was the gimp of the luci, and it worked, and was balanced, and created the need for teamwork. Now the luci is just a god weapon. 2000 creds every time.
there was no need for change.
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-Regen Auras. No, no, no, no. It is cruel to ask any alien at S3 to go basi. Why? Unless your super pro you will die quickly. Unless your super pro you will not get many kills. And you will block, and be tked, just because of getting in the way, even if you only want to help. Like with the rant, you are removing the fun from the game, for the sake of making things more balanced.
and who asks aliens at s3 to go granger? who can tell how many kill will they get?
you see, its not about the kills its about teamwork... and only if you are "super pro" will win when their teamwork was close to none(unless of course the other team had some). And tyrants wont trample basis for one simple reason... they will know that no basi means no healing and no healing means quick fail. And basis will try to use god damn wall walk so that they wont block once and for all.
Removing the fun from the game? what fun? being a killwhore? good teamwork brings much more fun than that.
I would go all way up, so that boost give minimal healing and basi 2x that much
PS. I love new turrets but I'm having some hard time placing it so they 1)wont get to close to entrance (eaten by tyrants) and yet 2) not to far (adv goons are out of range)
i find building fun. i enjoy doing it. And building is only temporary, once a base is done its done. And when your on the backfoot and the base needs a constant builder, you are involved with the action and get a kick out of it.
waiting in the hallway by the enemy base, waiting for rants to come to you and get there HP back up, is not fun. You are not involved, your just effectively a building, an appendage.
As for getting tked. I have often made vain attempt to involve myself at S3 as a basi, and if i am not killed, i am often killed trying to help a rant slice a hummie. I dont blame the rant, it is my fault, but i can hardly be blamed for trying to have some fun?
And as for the fun element. I did not say killwhoring is fun, and a player of my skill can hardly try to killwhore. What is fun is being involved in the game, which is extremely hard as a basi at S3 (which is the most lengthy period of the game). I, and many other less skileld players, find it extremely hard to kill a helmet+armour or a bsuit with a basi. It is a near impossibility for me. So i am reduced to merely following my teamates, and retreating everytime the enemy comes near so i dont et in the way. Not my idea of fun.
Maybe for you it is fun, because you are an able lisker. For the most of us however, it isnt.
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Hey guys,
I look here from time to time and while I have no opinion on any of the 1.2 work yet I must really say that I like the new style of openness and communication involved lately. That's good work from the devs and some nice discipline from the longingly waiting users.
Keep it up and something good will come out of it :)
Cheers
Mana
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-Poison kill, needs to come back. It really helps joining at a s2 or s3 game for dretches, and is an asset. Med packs are more than a match for poison, and it seems stupid to change two balanced coutnerparts.
WHAT? Poison deaths were removed?! That's moronic.
there's a difference between being able to kill with poison and being able to kill a human behind a wall of turrets instantly with a 0 cost class.
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-Poison kill, needs to come back. It really helps joining at a s2 or s3 game for dretches, and is an asset. Med packs are more than a match for poison, and it seems stupid to change two balanced coutnerparts.
WHAT? Poison deaths were removed?! That's moronic.
there's a difference between being able to kill with poison and being able to kill a human behind a wall of turrets instantly with a 0 cost class.
has never happened to me, when there are 3 or more rets in the base. And i have never seen it happen when there are more than 3 rets in base.
(well positioned rets)
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You can still easily pull this off even with a decent human base with the current poison. Just requires some speed and planning.
Prior to this change I could easily take 2-3 humans out behind the rets - and I suck at Tremulous!
Khalsa
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You can still easily pull this off even with a decent human base with the current poison. Just requires some speed and planning.
Prior to this change I could easily take 2-3 humans out behind the rets - and I suck at Tremulous!
Khalsa
how? when you get near a base with a decent amount of rets, you die before you can get close.
take ACTS for example, i fail to see how it is possible to get at someone when there are lots of rets.
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You can still easily pull this off even with a decent human base with the current poison. Just requires some speed and planning.
Prior to this change I could easily take 2-3 humans out behind the rets - and I suck at Tremulous!
Khalsa
how? when you get near a base with a decent amount of rets, you die before you can get close.
take ACTS for example, i fail to see how it is possible to get at someone when there are lots of rets.
even in 1.1 (where bases were better at keeping dretches out), i regularly managed to take out about 3 humans per 4 dretches used up.
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I don't get how RC hops are supposed to be easier, given that while chomping the thing from above you are usually stationary, and whenever you are stationary in a norfenturret base your life expectancy is measured in milliseconds. Also, not only are new turrets longer-ranged (allowing them to get a better angle on the top of the reactor) but the reactor shock is stronger (not a lot, but enough to repel a basilisk at least)
And the dretch having the highest DPS below dragoon was always insane.
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You can still easily pull this off even with a decent human base with the current poison. Just requires some speed and planning.
Prior to this change I could easily take 2-3 humans out behind the rets - and I suck at Tremulous!
Khalsa
how? when you get near a base with a decent amount of rets, you die before you can get close.
take ACTS for example, i fail to see how it is possible to get at someone when there are lots of rets.
even in 1.1 (where bases were better at keeping dretches out), i regularly managed to take out about 3 humans per 4 dretches used up.
still, i insist that a well built base will repel any dretch arsenal. There is no need to remove poison kill, it was a stupid move IMO, and is a tiny annoyance. As i have said, i have never witnessed it happening in a well built base, nor have it done to me, in my time playing trem.
And anyways, how else are you supposed to get kills at an S3 game, as a dretch with no poison?
Not only that, hummies will become more confident camping on rets.
I don't get how RC hops are supposed to be easier, given that while chomping the thing from above you are usually stationary, and whenever you are stationary in a norfenturret base your life expectancy is measured in milliseconds. Also, not only are new turrets longer-ranged (allowing them to get a better angle on the top of the reactor) but the reactor shock is stronger (not a lot, but enough to repel a basilisk at least)
And the dretch having the highest DPS below dragoon was always insane.
Any rc built in a corner (which they often are) hide you from ever the new rets. The scenario you are talking about are in maps like niveus (or is is nexus6) where the RC is in the middle and rets all around.
and wuts DPS?
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Poison still works.
As I understand it, poison is better than in 1.1.
What you are complaining about is that dretches can no longer do 96 damage in one hit. Get over it.
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Poison still works.
As I understand it, poison is better than in 1.1.
What you are complaining about is that dretches can no longer do 96 damage in one hit. Get over it.
I will never get over it. Instead of making it impossible to take out 96 hp in one hit, make it atleast 5x harder.
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I think poison should be better. Maybe just less original dretch damage.
And DPS = Damage per Second.
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thx moose.
A simple fix would be adding a delay for poison to kick in. Not only does it make sense but it would end the complaint of base kills.
Dont delay it too much though, a 1 sec delay is more than enough.
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I think, and probably most people agree, that the current iteration (which has been in place well over a year) is great. I see no reason to change it whatsoever.
Khalsa
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I think, and probably most people agree, that the current iteration (which has been in place well over a year) is great. I see no reason to change it whatsoever.
Khalsa
ya mean the current changes? if so, i agree with you 100%
So what if aliens win most of the time, every game you play is fun.
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probably most people agree
I wouldn't be so sure. I wouldn't even be remotely sure. Aside from the vast amount of people who have never even played it, there's the slightly less vast amount of people who don't want to switch from the current version they've become accustomed to. Even of those who are left, a good portion of them will still have one or two quarrels with the current version.
The real surge of positivity will most likely come when 1.2 is released, along with news coverage and the influx of new players that it brings. There you will have a host of players which will download the new ruleset because "it's the latest!!!" and will probably have a similar standing to the 1.1 version as older players had to the MGdev version. The only difference is the graphical side which I'm personally a lot more positive about.
So what if aliens win most of the time, every game you play is fun.
I prefer fun to fairness too. Not everyone has fun without fairness though and not everyone will agree that MGdev is more fun in any way.
It's unfortunate that the people you're most likely to get feedback from are the people who are excited about it. I know many players who have tried MGdev and have since not gone back. Be it closed-mindedness or just plain lack of interest, these people certainly aren't happy with it.
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And if they don't bother to have their say, then they have no right to complain should their opinions not be known.
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Well that's fair enough, but I didn't actually say they were complaining. In fact, you might not think that these players existed if you only ever played on the MGdev servers.
I'm just calling attention to the part of the trem community that isn't likely to switch over because of the MGdev changes.
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And anyways, how else are you supposed to get kills at an S3 game, as a dretch with no poison?
You don't have to be the one to kill a human to get some credit for it, aliens get partial frags now. Just follow your bigger teammates around and get a few bites in on whatever they're killing. And if you're picturing yourself as a dretch at stage 3, why are you aren't you also picturing some unarmoured humans?
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Dev game in 5 minutes, on the Euro server (edev.tremulous.net)
The big change this week is trying out a different form of the zap. Basically, it's like the 1.1 zap except:
- Instead of chaining to up to two subsequent targets, it chains once to up to five targets within range of the primary one.
- The damage dealt is equal among all targets
EDIT: New zap is still being worked on and isn't on the server yet. I'll keep you posted.
EDIT: Scratch that, we broke our kevlarman :( should be ready by next week's game.
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Equal at max, or split equally?
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Maximum damage done to everything that gets hit.
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Game in 20 minutes on the US server
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So nobody's ever actually contacted me about holding a private match-type game on the dev servers, and as far as I know none have happened otherwise either. What happened to all that talk from a few pages ago, folks? Drum up some players and let's get some competitive-play feedback coming.
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As those of you from euro servers might have noticed, I've had very little time to spend playing trem lately. University pressures.
I have a holiday coming up soon (3 weeks) and I'll be completely available to arrange it then.
Sorry about this, but studies come first.
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So nobody's ever actually contacted me about holding a private match-type game on the dev servers, and as far as I know none have happened otherwise either. What happened to all that talk from a few pages ago, folks? Drum up some players and let's get some competitive-play feedback coming.
It was a while ago but vR and X kind of had a match there :P
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Game in 17 minutes, on the Euro server (edev.tremulous.net).
The new zap is now fully functional.
Also, it looks like it was never mentioned in this thread, but several weeks ago hives got a pretty big boost, and we still need people to test them to see if they're overpowered or not. If I remember correctly, the changes were:
- Health boost (175 now instead of the same as acid tubes at 125)
- Non-locational damage and an increase from 50 to 100
- Swarms chase the nearest human instead of focusing on their initial target, and don't give up when blocked by something
- Swarms don't have to return to their hive before the hive can fire again, they just die. Swarms have a 3 second lifetime, and the hive has a 3 second repeat.
Sounds overpowered, right? Prove it please.
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The new zap is now fully functional.
...almost. even though it can hit 5 targets, it will only ever display 3 of them.
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US server game in 1.5 hours.
Sorry for the confusion last week with daylight savings time. Over the last switch we stuck with silly American time, so I figured we would this time too instead of making it even later in the night for Europeans (also, I forgot about it). So we'll be playing at 15:00 Eastern Daylight Time, which is 19:00 UTC.
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Okey I would like to say something about balance changes. First of all there are alot players wich are playing ul and alot who doens't. So balance changes for each "style" shouldn't be excatcly the same. (I am playing without unlagged) After my long adventure in tremulous i noticed that unlagged and "lagged" doesnt make big diffrence, only ul claw/bitt/chomp range is retarded.
What I like:
-Slower Granger. (This is builder, he should be slower without big chances to ran from hummies.)
-Tyrant with 350hp. (Now everyone agree, tyrant was a bit too easy, now chainsuits and lucis have bigger chances to kill it without team.)
-Mark deconstruct, new cvars and some other server-side client cmds.
-Poision change. (Better chances vs. hummies on st2.)
-Dretch doesn't deal damage 96hp to naked human but still he is able to kill in 2 bitts.
-Hive.
-Graphic changes.
What I don't like:
-New basi. Now it's overpowered. I don't know why the hell you made it better? Actually basi was really powerfull against all humans. Even if he couldn't fully grab a bs he was still usefull teammate. And basi has healing aura? Now I need to ask player to evolve to basi ?
Do not change basi, except silent footsteps. Nothing more.
- New Marauder - okey thats really stupid. Actually in 1.1 games good adv/normal maras are able to kill armored human with helmet. Now it started to be _really_ easy. Bigger range, weird jump... erm? And zap? Zap never should be better than claw. Instead of making zapp better reduce time between single zap and single claw. A _bit_ better range should be good imho.
- Dragoon. Hmm, well dragoon seems to be fine thought. A bit reduced range makes it more balanced but I've strange feeling playing it. It seems a bit slower? Oh and I forget to add. Pounce damage is just test right? :)
-Dretch. Actually dretchies are useless on unlagged, a bit more usefull on lagged but its still almost the same. Normal ul player is able to kill 1-2 dretchies with one clip,good lagged player with 1 clip. I think dretch should be a little better, because players are getting skilled. But I am not really sure what should be changed: hp, speed, bite speed ? I'd suggest a little hp bonus.
- Alien Regen. Tremulous is dynamic game as someone in this thread said "a little longer regen could be good but not that much" - yes, very slow regeneration makes the game boring and slooower. As I remember it is 1/3 normal regen, better change it to 2/3.
-New Human dodage... What should I say. I don't like it. Humans gain actually more stamina in 1.2. That's enough to change. Now they can avoid aliens chomping by a triple jump for example. What aboud adding cvar like "g_humandodge 0/1" ? Atleast players will decide if they want to play with it or not.
-Shootgun. Why the hell have you reduced his power? I am good swith sg, now I can't kill a simple nub dretch with it while he is few virtual meters to me? Leave shootgun alone please...
-Lasgun: Should be a bit faster. It's easy to use it in ul, but on lagged its horrible hard even for good players.
I am not sure:
-Building changes in humans. It may be innovatory, because aliens won't rush as they used to do it. Now with teslas they will need adv. goons instead of all tyrants.
Sorry for my english.
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MGDev has slower grangers? DDDDDDDDDDDD:
It's the end of the world as we know it.
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and i feel fine.
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Because it might be your fault. Conspiracy!
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MGDev has slower grangers? DDDDDDDDDDDD:
They're not slower anymore (well, in 1.1 regular grangers were at 0.8 and advanced were at 1.0, now they're both at 0.9).
Euro server (edev.tremulous.net) game in 45 minutes (19:00 UTC).
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MGDev has slower grangers? DDDDDDDDDDDD:
They're not slower anymore (well, in 1.1 regular grangers were at 0.8 and advanced were at 1.0, now they're both at 0.9).
Euro server (edev.tremulous.net) game in 45 minutes (19:00 UTC).
Thats a change I still disagree with. I think s1 grangers are perfectly fine being slower, it encourages not using it to fight, since it can't fight anyway.
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Thats a change I still disagree with. I think s1 grangers are perfectly fine being slower, it encourages not using it to fight, since it can't fight anyway.
It can rub against the human players' legs and distract them.
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Also some humans take blaster when they see a granger which buys time for dretches
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join USA server
[random trem emoticons spam]
:grenade: :hive: :dretch: :reactor: :telenode: :marauder: :basilisk: :basilisk: :advmarauder: :barricade: :tyrant: :turret: :tesla: :reactor: :repeater: :trapper: :trapper: :tesla: :telenode: :repeater: :jetpack: :marauder: :human: :hovel: :helmet: :egg: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :granger: :grenade: :granger: :granger:
[/random trem emoticons spam]
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Game now on the US server if people will join
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Thats a change I still disagree with. I think s1 grangers are perfectly fine being slower, it encourages not using it to fight, since it can't fight anyway.
It can rub against the human players' legs and distract them.
And purr while doing that!
Seriously, the granger can sneak up behind a human's legs and then another alien can push the human, so he'll fall down and all the aliens and other humans will laugh at him. Then he'll be useless for the rest of the game.
Seriously.
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Okey I would like to say something about balance changes. First of all there are alot players wich are playing ul and alot who doens't. So balance changes for each "style" shouldn't be excatcly the same. (I am playing without unlagged) After my long adventure in tremulous i noticed that unlagged and "lagged" doesnt make big diffrence, only ul claw/bitt/chomp range is retarded.
What I like:
-Slower Granger. (This is builder, he should be slower without big chances to ran from hummies.)
-Tyrant with 350hp. (Now everyone agree, tyrant was a bit too easy, now chainsuits and lucis have bigger chances to kill it without team.)
-Mark deconstruct, new cvars and some other server-side client cmds.
-Poision change. (Better chances vs. hummies on st2.)
-Dretch doesn't deal damage 96hp to naked human but still he is able to kill in 2 bitts.
-Hive.
-Graphic changes.
What I don't like:
-New basi. Now it's overpowered. I don't know why the hell you made it better? Actually basi was really powerfull against all humans. Even if he couldn't fully grab a bs he was still usefull teammate. And basi has healing aura? Now I need to ask player to evolve to basi ?
Do not change basi, except silent footsteps. Nothing more.
- New Marauder - okey thats really stupid. Actually in 1.1 games good adv/normal maras are able to kill armored human with helmet. Now it started to be _really_ easy. Bigger range, weird jump... erm? And zap? Zap never should be better than claw. Instead of making zapp better reduce time between single zap and single claw. A _bit_ better range should be good imho.
- Dragoon. Hmm, well dragoon seems to be fine thought. A bit reduced range makes it more balanced but I've strange feeling playing it. It seems a bit slower? Oh and I forget to add. Pounce damage is just test right? :)
-Dretch. Actually dretchies are useless on unlagged, a bit more usefull on lagged but its still almost the same. Normal ul player is able to kill 1-2 dretchies with one clip,good lagged player with 1 clip. I think dretch should be a little better, because players are getting skilled. But I am not really sure what should be changed: hp, speed, bite speed ? I'd suggest a little hp bonus.
- Alien Regen. Tremulous is dynamic game as someone in this thread said "a little longer regen could be good but not that much" - yes, very slow regeneration makes the game boring and slooower. As I remember it is 1/3 normal regen, better change it to 2/3.
-New Human dodage... What should I say. I don't like it. Humans gain actually more stamina in 1.2. That's enough to change. Now they can avoid aliens chomping by a triple jump for example. What aboud adding cvar like "g_humandodge 0/1" ? Atleast players will decide if they want to play with it or not.
-Shootgun. Why the hell have you reduced his power? I am good swith sg, now I can't kill a simple nub dretch with it while he is few virtual meters to me? Leave shootgun alone please...
-Lasgun: Should be a bit faster. It's easy to use it in ul, but on lagged its horrible hard even for good players.
I am not sure:
-Building changes in humans. It may be innovatory, because aliens won't rush as they used to do it. Now with teslas they will need adv. goons instead of all tyrants.
Sorry for my english.
I disagree with alot of that. As i can tell, you play as a human. As you know, humans win lot of games. As i can tell, you are upset that humasn will no longer win all the time. Marauders zap, (if you tried it) is incredibly hard to aim. The basi, is being fixed, not ruined. True, rants will have smaller hp and will be easier targets. But i agree that dretchies need to be fixed. I also agree that the aliens regen should not be 1/3 but 2/3. Good call. There are Pros who can easily wreal havoc on a poor human base but there are far more unskilled basi players. They are fixing the basi. But they have to ask to be one? what shit is that?
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...As i can tell, you play as a human. As you know, humans win lot of games. As i can tell, you are upset that humasn will no longer win all the time...
...I was going to link to stats, but apparently it's password protected.
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Euro server (edev.tremulous.net) game today. Join now!
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I disagree with alot of that. As i can tell, you play as a human. As you know, humans win lot of games. As i can tell, you are upset that humasn will no longer win all the time. Marauders zap, (if you tried it) is incredibly hard to aim. The basi, is being fixed, not ruined.
Aliens are winning most of FFA matches, humans are winning clan wars. I don't care much about FFA.
New basi is really overpowered, its ruined, it seems u havent played basi well. With 1 evo you are able to kill a lucifercannon guy atleast sg+arm set. Now you can kill a battlesuit if you try harder? Basi was just class for good gamers, newbies weren't using it because it was too hard, now as Is saw today nuubies used it easly, I spent alot time training my basi thats aint fair, isnt it?
Gosh I made such a big posts and ofcourse even single dev didnt give me an answer...
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(http://Gosh I made such a big posts and ofcourse even single dev didnt give me an answer...)
Aliens are winning most of FFA matches, humans are winning clan wars. I don't care much about FFA.
Free For All in trem? :O
New basi is really overpowered, its ruined, it seems u havent played basi well. With 1 evo you are able to kill a lucifercannon guy atleast sg+arm set. Now you can kill a battlesuit if you try harder? Basi was just class for good gamers, newbies weren't using it because it was too hard, now as Is saw today nuubies used it easly, I spent alot time training my basi thats aint fair, isnt it?
It seems that you have killed a player who didn't get used with new luci, or 999 ping bsuit. I agree that basi is quite too strong at s1 humans. But if you saw "nuubies" using it easily, they probably weren't than new since newbies usually run with every class in a straight line and lisk have even less hp than in 1.1
btw. In 1.1 you are able to kill default sensitivity chainsuit as lisky with low ping if you try harder :P
btw2 http://pts.p2a.pl/viewtopic.php?id=420
I was playing yesterday and I found luci really powerful with missiles faster than pulse rifle's ones. It's not really hard to kill a rant if you spot him from larger distance and with dodging it's not really hard (still not so easy) to kill it in CQC. I still disagree with new luci, I'd rather see old good luci with normal, "feelable" chargin and slightly faster missiles.
Oh and it doesn't seem so slow now :angel:
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I was playing yesterday and I found luci really powerful with missiles faster than pulse rifle's ones. It's not really hard to kill a rant if you spot him from larger distance and with dodging it's not really hard (still not so easy) to kill it in CQC. I still disagree with new luci, I'd rather see old good luci with normal, "feelable" chargin and slightly faster missiles.
Oh and it doesn't seem so slow now :angel:
The point i have been trying to make all along. I really dont understand the logic behind it. I would have thought you would have changed it straight away.
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It seems that you have killed a player who didn't get used with new luci, or 999 ping bsuit. I agree that basi is quite too strong at s1 humans. But if you saw "nuubies" using it easily, they probably weren't than new since newbies usually run with every class in a straight line and lisk have even less hp than in 1.1
I was talking about old lucifer cannon. And guess what, basi might kill a good player with lc [Ofcourse it depends of situation]. It happens even on serious clan wars.
1.2 Basilisk is far far stronger than orginal one, so its easier to use, easier for everyone. Including new players.
Meh, I call normal games "ffa".
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US server this week, 20 minutes from now.
We're trying a slight change to the marauder zap: full damage is dealt instantly, instead of over the course of one second.
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I played more thoroughly recently and here's some of my opinion.
Maruader is almost pointless to use regular with slashes now, and overpowered with zap. The whole point of mara was its hit and run feature, even if it was hard to hit with, that was the whole way it worked. Difficult manuverability = hard for humans to aim at. Now its basically a slightly faster goon without pounce, and some nuke hazard area attack at advanced.
I don't like the way build points are obtained back so slowly, I like the concept of getting 1 at a time, but it feels like it takes 2-3 times as long to get your points back in the long run because of it, I found myself not standing a chance of keeping a base rebuilt as oncoming humans killed it. My build timer definately pwned the bp return timer by a long shot. One good rush would leave me 4-5 minutes out from getting all my bps back, which is just ridiculous.
Lucifer Cannon, it was about prediction, not literally bringing about the wrath of the all mighty satan himself.
Goon pounce, I was able to pounce kill 3 s2 shotties in a group of 4-5 humans almost consistantly, against decent players. Its way too strong now. I like the goons range of width reducement though, more balanced.
Dretches not doing 96, I'm on the fence on this. This eliminates easy poison kills against campers, but at the same time makes those annoying ass pollacks bleeders less of a problem.
Healing, mmh, I like it so far, as long as you can convince someone to stay close by as basi its not too bad. It definately makes the booster more manditory.
Tyrant maul, also too strong imo.
What I would suggest.
Slow luci the fuck down.
Slighty increase mara jump height and speed, and reduce zap's power.
Decrease goon pounce damage, make it 75% what it is now tops.
Decrease Tyrant maul damage to about 50% what it is now, you shouldn't be able to completely rape a chainsuit with maul.
Increase the speed on build points returning, up to double or possibly even triple the rate it happens now.
Thats just my opinion imo.
The rest seemed to be pretty good.
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Thats just my opinion imo.
What's wrong with that statement?
On a serious note, I'd say I agree with pretty much all of the points Annihilation made, and especially the ones regarding the new Marauder.
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Thats just my opinion imo.
What's wrong with that statement?
On a serious note, I'd say I agree with pretty much all of the points Annihilation made, and especially the ones regarding the new Marauder.
I can say in my opinion its my opinoin :P
On your opinion it could be somebody else opinion that I'm just standing point to like a lamb.
Oh well :P
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Euro server game in 15 minutes.
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Maruader is almost pointless to use regular with slashes now, and overpowered with zap.
I can't agree with this. You can do 100 damage per second with the slash (150 with headshots) versus 40 damage per second with the zap. So if you're not hitting 2-3 targets with the zap it's not usually worth it.
I found myself not standing a chance of keeping a base rebuilt as oncoming humans killed it.
That's exactly the point - to not let you rebuild your base before the next wave of humans even arrive. Maybe it'd be nice if the return rate were faster with more builders present, but overall I think this has been a positive change. The best thing to do is just evolve and help repel the humans; by the time they exhaust their credits most of your points will be back.
Lucifer Cannon, it was about prediction, not literally bringing about the wrath of the all mighty satan himself.
I'd say in 1.1 it was more about spamming incessantly...
Tyrant maul, also too strong imo.
Only thing that's changed about this since 1.1 is that it's harder to hit with (shorter range and narrower width). I don't want to lower its damage output since right now it's already exactly the same as the advanced goon.
Slighty increase mara jump height and speed
The slightly lower jump height is better for marauders - easier to get headshots, easier to strafe jump, and less time in the air is less time that you can't dodge. Kevlarman says the apparent speed reduction is a bug, but frankly, if that slight decrease is the tradeoff for the improved walljumping I don't mind at all (it's not like marauders now suddenly have a difficult time running away from things).
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Thought I'd say all this on IRC, but...
Goon pounce distance has changed? Jump/pounce changes (esp human, goon, dretch) can make many maps work differently if you now can/can't access different areas.
Also dodge gets too far: its possible to clear atcs gap with it, making it not an advantage to good players :'( (so its not possible to make gaps that require good strafing (not uber, dodge is a bit shorter)).
Btw why not move dodging to jumping (or jumping while sprinting), (they both take stamina anyway)? It would still be possible to sprint backwards.
When I'm dead and spec a teammate who is dead, I dont see the "following <name>" msg.
On screen messages don't default to ^7 color, they keep the color from last message.
I somehow managed to get 'Cannot spawn as Spectator' while in spawn queue.
Unnamed player disconnect message is just " disconnected"
Dretch model seems to be a bit above the ground.
What about having some flooding algorithm for power/creep range (so you can't build in some unconnected area if its behind a wall from RC).
How have buildable HPs changed?
Cant toggle blaster right after shooting ???
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Thought I'd say all this on IRC, but...
Goon pounce distance has changed? Jump/pounce changes (esp human, goon, dretch) can make many maps work differently if you now can/can't access different areas.
afaik it hasn't changed
Also dodge gets too far: its possible to clear atcs gap with it, making it not an advantage to good players :'( (so its not possible to make gaps that require good strafing (not uber, dodge is a bit shorter)).
sprint generally helps more than a good circle jump, so it doesn't really matter.
Btw why not move dodging to jumping (or jumping while sprinting), (they both take stamina anyway)? It would still be possible to sprint backwards.
When I'm dead and spec a teammate who is dead, I dont see the "following <name>" msg.
On screen messages don't default to ^7 color, they keep the color from last message.
I somehow managed to get 'Cannot spawn as Spectator' while in spawn queue.
Unnamed player disconnect message is just " disconnected"
Dretch model seems to be a bit above the ground.
What about having some flooding algorithm for power/creep range (so you can't build in some unconnected area if its behind a wall from RC).
report these here (http://projects.mercenariesguild.net/projects/mgdev/issues/) (actually the unnamed one isn't an mgdev bug, but w/e)
How have buildable HPs changed?
easiest way is to just grab a ckit/granger and build one of everything. hopefully we'll have a proper changelog soon
Cant toggle blaster right after shooting ???
notabug
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Maruader is almost pointless to use regular with slashes now, and overpowered with zap.
I can't agree with this. You can do 100 damage per second with the slash (150 with headshots) versus 40 damage per second with the zap. So if you're not hitting 2-3 targets with the zap it's not usually worth it.
I found myself not standing a chance of keeping a base rebuilt as oncoming humans killed it.
That's exactly the point - to not let you rebuild your base before the next wave of humans even arrive. Maybe it'd be nice if the return rate were faster with more builders present, but overall I think this has been a positive change. The best thing to do is just evolve and help repel the humans; by the time they exhaust their credits most of your points will be back.
Lucifer Cannon, it was about prediction, not literally bringing about the wrath of the all mighty satan himself.
I'd say in 1.1 it was more about spamming incessantly...
Tyrant maul, also too strong imo.
Only thing that's changed about this since 1.1 is that it's harder to hit with (shorter range and narrower width). I don't want to lower its damage output since right now it's already exactly the same as the advanced goon.
Slighty increase mara jump height and speed
The slightly lower jump height is better for marauders - easier to get headshots, easier to strafe jump, and less time in the air is less time that you can't dodge. Kevlarman says the apparent speed reduction is a bug, but frankly, if that slight decrease is the tradeoff for the improved walljumping I don't mind at all (it's not like marauders now suddenly have a difficult time running away from things).
If you have issues running with the current marauder, you don't know how to use it. This mara's shorter jumps make building up a great solid speed along walls a lot more difficult. Its not marauder anymore at all, its a slightly faster goon.
Zap overpowers slash because slash is 15 times harder to hit. You may be doing 100 dmg vs 40 dmg, but when you're only landing 3/5 slashes versus 5/5 zaps, the zap becomes a lot more overpowered, especially when you're zapping multiple people.
I don't think you should be able to rebuild instantly, but htis is way to slow, I'm lucky if I can get 8 build points back, by the time the next wave of humans come, you should get at least half of what was lost imo. It feels like I'm getting 1bp every 10 seconds, which is just fucking ridiculous.
Pollacks spam old luci, and this new one, is 10 times more effective for spam imo. I'll sit in base with it, and you try to rush.
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I don't think you should be able to rebuild instantly, but htis is way to slow, I'm lucky if I can get 8 build points back, by the time the next wave of humans come, you should get at least half of what was lost imo. It feels like I'm getting 1bp every 10 seconds, which is just fucking ridiculous.
I believe it's 1bp every 7 seconds. Still freakin' slow.
Pollacks spam old luci
nowai i dont spam it :(
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Thought I'd say all this on IRC, but...
Goon pounce distance has changed? Jump/pounce changes (esp human, goon, dretch) can make many maps work differently if you now can/can't access different areas.
afaik it hasn't changed
On arachnid2 I used to easily get to the ledge going to box room from below, now I can't. Also for example on karith +goon can barely pounce from bottom of large stairs room to above 3 sets of stairs.Also dodge gets too far: its possible to clear atcs gap with it, making it not an advantage to good players :'( (so its not possible to make gaps that require good strafing (not uber, dodge is a bit shorter)).
sprint generally helps more than a good circle jump, so it doesn't really matter.
sprint+strafejump = a simple backwards dodge, so it does matter. There should be a way for mappers to make difficult jumps IMO.
EDIT: just noticed, the jump height for humans is lower? It's not possible to get on barrels on niveus anymore.
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EDIT: just noticed, the jump height for humans is lower? It's not possible to get on barrels on niveus anymore.
This may or maynot be a bug. It will be looked into.
Khalsa
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you can't sprint while strafe jumping.
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Sprinting gives higher starting speed (for humans this is usually just 1 jump anyway) and it definitely improves my strafejump distance.
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Sprinting gives higher starting speed (for humans this is usually just 1 jump anyway) and it definitely improves my strafejump distance.
as soon as you press left/right you will stop sprinting.
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I think you are wrong there. I can definitely jump better on on edev with sprint, and left/right doesn't stop sprinting as long as I don't let go of forwards (I can see the stamina icon still flash).
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I believe it's 1bp every 7 seconds. Still freakin' slow.
IMO the biggest problem with slow BP regeneration is not that it's unbalanced, but that it's boring. If the rate is really 1 bp per 7 seconds then that's 56 seconds for a single turret/tube and 70 seconds for a spawn. Your team's poor builder is forced to just sit there and twiddle his thumbs. After a moderate attack in which you lost 3 tubes / turrets, that's nearly 3 minutes of waiting time.
The problem is slightly less pronounced for humans since a good player can quickly sell his ckit and shoot some aliens for 30 seconds after building something. Unfortunately the poor grangers don't have this option.
Granted, builders are already accustomed to waiting after building. The normal waiting time ( about 15 seconds?) isn't so bad, and it gives you time to think and set up the placement of your next structure. But I can see quite a few grangers going stir-crazy once the wait time more than doubles.
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I think the build time increase is fine, but its almost 4-5 times what it use to be, cut that shit in half. It should be 30 seconds tops for a tube.
I mean, slow it down a little, it was a tad bit too easy to rebuild in time, but this is fucking ridiculous, its gone from a semi liberal almost inbetween to a die hard christian who thinks all gays should shoot be shot on site.
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US server game in 2 hours, 45 minutes.
I believe it's 1bp every 7 seconds. Still freakin' slow.
IMO the biggest problem with slow BP regeneration is not that it's unbalanced, but that it's boring. If the rate is really 1 bp per 7 seconds then that's 56 seconds for a single turret/tube and 70 seconds for a spawn. Your team's poor builder is forced to just sit there and twiddle his thumbs. After a moderate attack in which you lost 3 tubes / turrets, that's nearly 3 minutes of waiting time.
The problem is slightly less pronounced for humans since a good player can quickly sell his ckit and shoot some aliens for 30 seconds after building something. Unfortunately the poor grangers don't have this option.
After moderate attacks (as alien) I've taken to moving structures from rear positions to replace the front ones that went down, then rebuilding the rear ones once the points return. If all the defensive structures go down I can usually do more good evolving and defending until the threat recedes. As you say, as human it's much easier to just swap to a weapon while waiting and switch back later.
We'll try 6 seconds this week and next (I can't make it today's game), then decide if it's still too high (always easier to find the right balance for something if you over-do it first then gradually scale back). Also, this is a server setting, so whatever value we settle on will just be a default.
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I believe it's 1bp every 7 seconds. Still freakin' slow.
IMO the biggest problem with slow BP regeneration is not that it's unbalanced, but that it's boring. If the rate is really 1 bp per 7 seconds then that's 56 seconds for a single turret/tube and 70 seconds for a spawn. Your team's poor builder is forced to just sit there and twiddle his thumbs. After a moderate attack in which you lost 3 tubes / turrets, that's nearly 3 minutes of waiting time.
The problem is slightly less pronounced for humans since a good player can quickly sell his ckit and shoot some aliens for 30 seconds after building something. Unfortunately the poor grangers don't have this option.
Granted, builders are already accustomed to waiting after building. The normal waiting time ( about 15 seconds?) isn't so bad, and it gives you time to think and set up the placement of your next structure. But I can see quite a few grangers going stir-crazy once the wait time more than doubles.
I have to say, I agree with you on that. You can be the best builder on the team, but it can still be relatively boring. I always wished I could just switch windows and browse the web or something while waiting for my build timer to go down except I might get killed or something else might happen. I'd very much like the ability to repair while your build timer is still up. It gives you something to do. Might have to cut the repair rate in half for the people who's build timer is still on though. That might balance it a little..
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Another way is to have bps return faster if you are low on bps, and slower if you already have most. This way getting base fully up still takes a while (possibly even longer), but you can more easily keep a basic base up. Also with outposts, if you lose 1, you can build the next one sooner. It is still possible to slowly kill enemy base (the last few bps don't come back fast), and then rush to take down the rest.
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I like that idea. You'd have to decide on the exact numbers, but having it come back somewhat quickly at first and gradually slowing down sounds good to me. Can we please test this?
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I was going to suggest that, it sounds great. If you're waiting on your last tube, I can see waiting the 54 seconds(48 with new time next week). But if you lose your whole 100 build points, it will take 11 minutes and 40 seconds to get it all back, thats almost half a game most the time -_-
I think it should be something like this table
BPS Used, Seconds per 1BPS regen
100-90 6
89-80 5.5
79-70 5
69-60 4.5
59-50 4
49-40 3.5
39-30 3
29-20 2.5
19-10 2
9-0 1
This way you can almost always build a tube at least, this would seem far more fair to me.
That would put it to 6 minutes for a whole rebuid, but allowing some small faster rebuilding if they keep blowing shit up really fast, giving you somewhat of a chance. While imposing the solid 48 second wait still if they just get a quicky tube or something.
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You are god. Brilliant idea. Hard to code I presume, but still a good idea. Kev, get this man a medal. ! .
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It's not hard to code. My original BP queue patch had variable BP regen, only it always started fast and became slower during the match (I just wanted a less abrupt change from the normal game to a kind of sudden death).
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If its easy to do, then DO IT NAO PLZ! You deserve a medal. Or better yet, a statue. A statue made of medals.
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Well, this patch will give you more BP/sec when the queue is full (i.e. you are low on BP). It doesn't check how many build points are actually used as Annihilation suggested, only how many are in the queue. This means you don't have the tactical option to decon your base to get a faster BP return rate, but I am too lazy now to fix that.
diff -r 40256e3367ad src/game/g_main.c
--- a/src/game/g_main.c Sun Mar 29 21:12:10 2009 +0800
+++ b/src/game/g_main.c Thu May 07 15:20:06 2009 +0200
@@ -1123,14 +1123,14 @@
level.alienNextQueueTime < level.time )
{
level.alienBuildPointQueue--;
- level.alienNextQueueTime += g_alienBuildQueueTime.integer;
+ level.alienNextQueueTime += 1000 + (g_alienBuildQueueTime.integer - 1000) * level.alienBuildPointQueue / level.alienBuildPoints;
}
while( level.humanBuildPointQueue > 0 &&
level.humanNextQueueTime < level.time )
{
level.humanBuildPointQueue--;
- level.humanNextQueueTime += g_alienBuildQueueTime.integer;
+ level.humanNextQueueTime += 1000 + (g_humanBuildQueueTime.integer - 1000) * level.humanBuildPointQueue / level.humanBuildPoints;
}
// Sudden Death checks
You see, it's a very simple change.
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Well, this patch will give you more BP/sec when the queue is full (i.e. you are low on BP). It doesn't check how many build points are actually used as Annihilation suggested, only how many are in the queue. This means you don't have the tactical option to decon your base to get a faster BP return rate, but I am too lazy now to fix that.
diff -r 40256e3367ad src/game/g_main.c
--- a/src/game/g_main.c Sun Mar 29 21:12:10 2009 +0800
+++ b/src/game/g_main.c Thu May 07 15:20:06 2009 +0200
@@ -1123,14 +1123,14 @@
level.alienNextQueueTime < level.time )
{
level.alienBuildPointQueue--;
- level.alienNextQueueTime += g_alienBuildQueueTime.integer;
+ level.alienNextQueueTime += 1000 + (g_alienBuildQueueTime.integer - 1000) * level.alienBuildPointQueue / level.alienBuildPoints;
}
while( level.humanBuildPointQueue > 0 &&
level.humanNextQueueTime < level.time )
{
level.humanBuildPointQueue--;
- level.humanNextQueueTime += g_alienBuildQueueTime.integer;
+ level.humanNextQueueTime += 1000 + (g_humanBuildQueueTime.integer - 1000) * level.humanBuildPointQueue / level.humanBuildPoints;
}
// Sudden Death checks
You see, it's a very simple change.
Good idea, didn't think about the fact that you could decon almost everything get a ridiculous rebirth of bps rate, but.. it would also strap your team for defenses and even at the highest rate its still 100 full seconds for all the bps which is almost 2 minutes +rebuild time of using 100 bps, so it wouldn't be a smart tactical approach to rebuilding.
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But, in a scrim, a pro clan could pull that off. So it is still an option. I'd like to see that implemented as well.
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But, in a scrim, a pro clan could pull that off. So it is still an option. I'd like to see that implemented as well.
Thats true also, it could be a good strategic choice, to sacrafice your base for more build points to be returned faster, it wouldn't even necessarily be any faster, because of decon time + rebuild time you could be looking at an even longer wait to have all the bps back and used. Less time to have all 100 back and more time needed to use them.
Interesting. The queue thing would be more publically accepted I think.
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Euro server (edev.tremulous.net) game in 15 minutes.
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http://projects.mercenariesguild.net/issues/60
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US server game in 30 minutes. If you look for the servers in a browser, they're now named "Tremulous Development Server" and "Euro Tremulous Development Server". Last week's games were quite good and well-attended. Let's do that again.
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Euro server (edev.tremulous.net, "Euro Tremulous Development Server") game in 20 minutes.
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Hello. I'm new to the Development games (played mgdev 5-6 times with me 'mates before and yesterday on a planned one). May I add my nickel?
-- dodging to the left/right is acceptable, but backwards... how are you supposed to aim engaging enemy (dretches especially) hopping backwards? I dunno maybe our pr0s here disregard that, but... well, nuff said)
-- the new luci can make grangers spit bricks and other aliens writhe in agony. It's way too fast - secondary fire is now useful too, I guess?
Sorry if my post is annoying and/or repeats someone else's opinion. I only hope you'll need more different feedback from players to work out some right decisions.
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-- dodging to the left/right is acceptable, but backwards... how are you supposed to aim engaging enemy (dretches especially) hopping backwards? I dunno maybe our pr0s here disregard that, but... well, nuff said)
If you can't aim while doing it, don't do it when shooting. I think that's partly the point, people (irl) can't sprint backwards, they can jump backwards though. Whether it's useful in all situations is irrelevant, you can do it sideways so may as well let people do it back to.
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... spit bricks ...
bahahaha
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- dodging to the left/right is acceptable, but backwards... how are you supposed to aim engaging enemy (dretches especially) hopping backwards? I dunno maybe our pr0s here disregard that, but... well, nuff said)
If the Dretches are even worth playing against theyre going to be constantly moving in random directions anyway. the backwards jump is slow enough that you can compensate for their movements if theyre running towards you it can actually make life a little easier.
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I've always imagined that an epic dodge is now possible where a goon at critical health pounces for your head and you wait until he is breathing up your nostrils before olé-ing him with your sweet dodge and finishing him with your shotty.
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US Server game in 30 minutes. Big change to test today is zone build points for humans: repeaters each have their own pool of (20) build points. Thanks to bob0 for putting a patch together for us.
-- the new luci can make grangers spit bricks and other aliens writhe in agony. It's way too fast - secondary fire is now useful too, I guess?
I don't know about other people, but as a human I still feel safer carrying a chaingun (with a bsuit) than a lucifer cannon. Compared to 1.1, I can see how the faster projectile takes some getting used to, but you also can't spam with it as much anymore so it often comes down to which player can predict the other better. Sorry I don't have any sympathy for grangers versus the human team's best weapon. :P
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Euro server game in 40 minutes.
We had some some bugs last week but the games were a lot of fun. I think giving repeaters their own build point pools adds a lot to the game. Here're the tweaks we'll be trying today:
- Repeater build points don't queue. You get the 20 build points as soon as the repeater finishes building.
- Repeater power zones can overlap.
- Repeaters cost 2 build points from the reactor's pool.
- Repeaters are available at stage 1.
- Aliens get 50% more build points, and have a 50% higher queue time (so only their extra 50 build points will have longer queue times than normal).
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I have to ask, just for realism shouldnt it be the other way? that living eggs produce their own creep as a repeater... just reapeats the power from the RC unless its just a flat out mini RC. You said repeaters can overlap can they also overlap the RC? I can see a major camping abuse coming from that, Guess ill have to play a developement game tonight.
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Tremulous is not a realistic game. However, alien build points are called "sentience" -- they come from the Overmind, not creep, even if creep dictates where things can be built. Actual repeaters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeater) are things that amplify a signal. So now that you mention it I think it makes perfect sense the way it is. :P
Repeaters can overlap with the reactor's power zone, but anything built within the reactor's zone will use the reactor's power.
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so then for that to be abused they have to find the edge of the RC's zone build repeaters then create an ungodly ring of structures that will take several hours of tyrant/adv gooning to take out. Nice hope no one is dumb enough to do it.. or if they are i hope the team realizes its sufficient to protect the base and they wont camp
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Make it so that repeaters must be a minimum distance away from the reactor. Problem solved.
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Nah they already have to be outside the RC's powerzone to power their own structures on small base maps like atcs it wont matter much because their power cant be abused in base since the RC pretty much covers it to the hall. But some other places like ancient remains and temple are a different story.
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Make it so that repeaters must be a minimum distance away from the reactor. Problem solved.
Not really important, as repeaters built inside the base within RC distance simply just use up BP, they do absolutely nothing else. Let the noobs build about 5 repeaters and be like 'WTF?????????'
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Are you talking about repeaters built within the RC's powered zone? Or repeaters that have powered zones overlapping that of the RC's? I was talking about the latter.
Sorry, I didn't get a chance to join in on the last few dev games, so I have no idea how this plays out ingame.
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Just think of repeaters as mini RC's now.
They have their own build points to power structures but if they are built inside the RCs zone then any structures will use the rcs power.
My point was that if theyre placed just outside the base and dont cost anything they can build whatever they want or as much as they want which is ofc easily abusable.
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Just think of repeaters as mini RC's now.
They have their own build points to power structures but if they are built inside the RCs zone then any structures will use the rcs power.
My point was that if theyre placed just outside the base and dont cost anything they can build whatever they want or as much as they want which is ofc easily abusable.
please don't comment on how things work if you don't know how they work.
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think giving repeaters their own build point pools adds a lot to the game. Here're the tweaks we'll be trying today:
Repeater build points don't queue. You get the 20 build points as soon as the repeater finishes building.
Repeater power zones can overlap.
Repeaters cost 2 build points from the reactor's pool.
Repeaters are available at stage 1.
Aliens get 50% more build points, and have a 50% higher queue time (so only their extra 50 build points will have longer queue times than normal).
how the fuck is that different from what i said?
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think giving repeaters their own build point pools adds a lot to the game. Here're the tweaks we'll be trying today:
Repeater build points don't queue. You get the 20 build points as soon as the repeater finishes building.
Repeater power zones can overlap.
Repeaters cost 2 build points from the reactor's pool.
Repeaters are available at stage 1.
Aliens get 50% more build points, and have a 50% higher queue time (so only their extra 50 build points will have longer queue times than normal).
how the fuck is that different from what i said?
Just think of repeaters as mini RC's now.
They have their own build points to power structures but if they are built inside the RCs zone then any structures will use the rcs power.
My point was that if theyre placed just outside the base and dont cost anything they can build whatever they want or as much as they want which is ofc easily abusable.
They do cost something, although not much, as indicated by your quote.
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US server game today, in 15 minutes.
Some changes: repeaters now cost 4 build points; no more complimentary funds ("camper credits"). Other minor changes: repeaters won't self-destruct if not powering anything; deconstruct will actually take down human structures if they're not powered; advanced grangers are now the same size as regular grangers.
EDIT: kev also managed to get in a change to sprint/dodge: they're separate binds now. Sprint is now +button8. cg_alwaysSprint no longer works; just bind +button8 to your movement keys like you used to with boost. If you want to keep sprint and dodge on the same key (like we've had up until now) it still works the same if +button6 and +button8 are bound to one key.
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maybe you guys should fix the percent sign glitch.. today I paralyzed all the players just by putting a % in my name.. lol
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>- Dretches can't hurt turrets? That just slows down the game IMO.
I have the same opinion, these way I would like to have rets and teslas swapped.
Also I would like to have dretches more jump capable, so they would be able to jump on humans heads, but the same time would like to have bite range reduced, so it would be impossible to do a head shot from the ground level. Also I want dretches to be able to walljump.
Also I want the well known bug of flamethrower projectiles velocity to be fixed.
Hives were already overpowered/well powered in 1.1, 2 well placed hives on atcs were actually able to provide an equivalent of 2-3 kills during the assault before been lucied. I want hive's changes to be reverted and instead it is better to make the swarm ball to do a splash damage which penetrates human armour except bsuit, add an ability to kill multiple humans in a row to the swarm, make swarm sprite less transparent, obstructing sight, make it more quick and agile, with an extended range for chasing humans.
I want some armour and speed penalties to be implemented: Dretch being shot should flew away; Flamethrower doing minimal damage to bsuit equipped humans; Flamethrower projectiles to slow when hitting a target/ground; Bsuits to be immune to acid, shock, swarms. e.t.c., being able to stomp dretches down, ; Granger's poop to do a splash acid like damage; increase lisks' gas charge reload time to 15-20 second, but make them to contaminate wider area for a longer periods of time with an increased lethality.
New units/weapons suggestion: Aliens should get a long range anti personnel attack with something like mobile hives; Rants/Goons needs to have a quick heal ability by eating somebody; Humans should get an ability to kick (with boots) aliens (would be cool to deal with dretches, lisks); Humans should get some real RPG/grenade launcher equivalent, limited in ammo, but powerful with one shoot one kill ability; Make a flamethrower bit more usefull
Dynamic build points (team size depended) by default
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make it more quick and agile, with an extended range for chasing humans.
How do you plan for them to do that? pursue the hitboxes within a certain range of them until the human out runs the range?
If they just continuelly pursue theyre going to follow into the base and then pick everyone off doing all the aliens work for them.
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Also I want the well known bug of flamethrower projectiles velocity to be fixed.
What bug?
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>- Dretches can't hurt turrets? That just slows down the game IMO.
I have the same opinion, these way I would like to have rets and teslas swapped.
Also I would like to have dretches more jump capable, so they would be able to jump on humans heads, but the same time would like to have bite range reduced, so it would be impossible to do a head shot from the ground level. Also I want dretches to be able to walljump.
Also I want the well known bug of flamethrower projectiles velocity to be fixed.
Hives were already overpowered/well powered in 1.1, 2 well placed hives on atcs were actually able to provide an equivalent of 2-3 kills during the assault before been lucied. I want hive's changes to be reverted and instead it is better to make the swarm ball to do a splash damage which penetrates human armour except bsuit, add an ability to kill multiple humans in a row to the swarm, make swarm sprite less transparent, obstructing sight, make it more quick and agile, with an extended range for chasing humans.
I want some armour and speed penalties to be implemented: Dretch being shot should flew away; Flamethrower doing minimal damage to bsuit equipped humans; Flamethrower projectiles to slow when hitting a target/ground; Bsuits to be immune to acid, shock, swarms. e.t.c., being able to stomp dretches down, ; Granger's poop to do a splash acid like damage; increase lisks' gas charge reload time to 15-20 second, but make them to contaminate wider area for a longer periods of time with an increased lethality.
New units/weapons suggestion: Aliens should get a long range anti personnel attack with something like mobile hives; Rants/Goons needs to have a quick heal ability by eating somebody; Humans should get an ability to kick (with boots) aliens (would be cool to deal with dretches, lisks); Humans should get some real RPG/grenade launcher equivalent, limited in ammo, but powerful with one shoot one kill ability; Make a flamethrower bit more usefull
Dynamic build points (team size depended) by default
Where the hell did this guy come from?
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X
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Flamethrower doing minimal damage to bsuit equipped humans;
No friendly fire on X
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Flamethrower doing minimal damage to bsuit equipped humans;
No friendly fire on X
I think he means self damage.....
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He might. Wonder if hes even checked the replies.
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Well, not to mention, even if he is from X that doesn't mean he doesn't realize the game has a friendly fire feature.
Meh...
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Actually thats one of the funniest things to see is people walking forward into their flamars and then cant figure out why theyre toasting themselves.
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:o The most I ever dream for, is a flying alien, that will be fun, ::)
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Euro server game in 5 minutes!
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I have quite badass thing for you:
(http://tremulous.gryok.net/tremulous/devgames/devgame.jpg)
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What I don't like:
-New basi. Now it's overpowered. I don't know why the hell you made it better? Actually basi was really powerfull against all humans. Even if he couldn't fully grab a bs he was still usefull teammate. And basi has healing aura? Now I need to ask player to evolve to basi ?
Because it wasn't "really powerfull against all humans". It could be potent, in the right hands, in the right circumstances, but I don't feel like there was ever really a reason to use the basilisk in 1.1. Higher classes could always get more kills, and the dretch was usually a better option for getting enough frags to evolve to them. The healing aura is an opportunity for teamwork, and it let's players that don't get a lot of kills contribute to their team instead of feeding incessantly.
- New Marauder - okey thats really stupid. Actually in 1.1 games good adv/normal maras are able to kill armored human with helmet. Now it started to be _really_ easy. Bigger range, weird jump... erm? And zap? Zap never should be better than claw. Instead of making zapp better reduce time between single zap and single claw. A _bit_ better range should be good imho.
The zap isn't better than the claw unless you're attacking multiple targets.
- Dragoon. Hmm, well dragoon seems to be fine thought. A bit reduced range makes it more balanced but I've strange feeling playing it. It seems a bit slower? Oh and I forget to add. Pounce damage is just test right? :)
Pounce damage is unchanged. What has changed is that light armour no longer gives as much protection against nonlocational damage as light armour + helmet. And headchomps still do significantly more damage than the pounce.
-Dretch. Actually dretchies are useless on unlagged, a bit more usefull on lagged but its still almost the same. Normal ul player is able to kill 1-2 dretchies with one clip,good lagged player with 1 clip. I think dretch should be a little better, because players are getting skilled. But I am not really sure what should be changed: hp, speed, bite speed ? I'd suggest a little hp bonus.
Dretches are less powerful than in 1.1, but they're not useless. I felt they were overpowered in 1.1, as evinced by the fact that many people seem to prefer using them over higher, ostensbily better classes. Also keep in mind that they're actually worth less credits now too, and that staging up is based on funds, not kills.
- Alien Regen. Tremulous is dynamic game as someone in this thread said "a little longer regen could be good but not that much" - yes, very slow regeneration makes the game boring and slooower. As I remember it is 1/3 normal regen, better change it to 2/3.
Everyone complains about this at first, usually because they ignore the regen boosting of basilisks and boosters. We've played with the regen change for a very long time and I think it's proven to be a good thing.
-New Human dodage... What should I say. I don't like it. Humans gain actually more stamina in 1.2. That's enough to change. Now they can avoid aliens chomping by a triple jump for example. What aboud adding cvar like "g_humandodge 0/1" ? Atleast players will decide if they want to play with it or not.
Sorry you don't like it. You can't triple jump, there's a delay after dodging, and now that we've split it apart from sprinting I don't really think there's much to complain about. I think adding cvars to toggle gameplay features is silly; if people want to customize the game we make they can mod it to make a different game.
-Shootgun. Why the hell have you reduced his power? I am good swith sg, now I can't kill a simple nub dretch with it while he is few virtual meters to me? Leave shootgun alone please...
The difference in damage was a mere 8 points, but since you made your post I actually had that reverted. So now the shotgun does the same damage it did in 1.1, just with more pellets. Which makes it easier to hit dretches.
-Lasgun: Should be a bit faster. It's easy to use it in ul, but on lagged its horrible hard even for good players.
Lasgun hasn't been changed at all since 1.1. Did you think it was horrible hard for good players in 1.1?
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Im probably going to get the secret treatment. But in Stannums most recent video, there was a new weapon, which seemed to be a upgrade of the normal rifle.
Does this new weapon mean a new alien class?
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He's making new models to replace old models, not for any new items or classes. There aren't any secret gameplay changes.
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Of course there are! They're all a part of your evil agenda. Stop holding out on us, Norfenstein! We want the Battle Grangars NAO!!
On a more serious note, I'm rather happy about the new Basilisk. This way it's like a medic class. Now we need a medic for the humans, and I'll be really happy.
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If you look at it that way, humans already have medic, ckit can build repeater and medi + ret for defeding.
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I've found an exploit. Tested yesterday on edev.tremulous.net
Dodge is by far the fastest way to move over creep. Normally, creep significantly slows down humans walking near alien buildings. Dodge completely ignores creep.
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Well when jumping you aren't touching the ground so it makes sense that dodging avoids creep.
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Well when jumping you aren't touching the ground so it makes sense that dodging avoids creep.
Technically, yes. You can sprint and jump over creep if you aim it right. But results are pathetic if you're already stuck in creep. Dodge works even if you're already stuck in creep. It's foolproof. Humans can now move faster over creep and just run through it in situations where it was previously impossible.
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http://projects.mercenariesguild.net/issues/73 Thanks borsuk
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I'm a bit skeptical about alien regeneration nerf. It's a double-edged sword. It can enable humans to be more agressive, but it can also help them camp ! Ideal human agression booster would be something that is useful only on offense. A couple of ideas below:
Battery Pack becomes Ammo Pack
Often, humans have to pull back because they're out of ammo. Unlike aliens, humans can't afford to build (unguarded) forward bases, such as repeater + health pad. A single dragoon, which can appear as early as after 2 minues, is practically unstoppable at destroying weakly defended bases. I think it would be ok if humans could carry more ammo, if they pay for it. Energy weapons already are far ahead with ability to charge from very sturdy reactor, and multiple repeaters.
Ammo Pack would have identical functionality for energy weapons. But it would also work for Rifle, Shotgun, Flamethrower, Chaingun. Instead of extending magazines, it would allow carrying more magazines. You almost never see shotguns on the offensive, ammo capacity is too low. Flamethrower is hard to use, but people skilled at it should be allowed to pay extra for more ammo capacity. Flamethrower doesn't forgive mistakes when you're light armour marine.
Note that battery pack ONLY helps on offensive. It's nearly worthless on defense.
Grenades at S1
Come on, it's not crazy ! Grenades are nearly worthless against mobile aliens, it would only change S1 human offense capabilities. Grenade costs quite a lot for beginning ($200), about as much as armour+shotgun, and there are no helmets. Only competent marines would afford grenades at S1, and lack of helmet would make successful grenade runs much more rewarding. Can getting humans out of base at S1 be bad ? And just like battery pack, grenade is nearly worthless on defense. S1 Humans have nothing that approaches dragoon at building destruction.
Humans don't need fucking *defense* computer !
It's interesting that teslas now don't need the computer and it got another function. But humans already have too many camping incentives. Therefore, Defense Computer becomes Offense Computer. Long range scanner. Offense Computer would reveal all alien buildings within a huge radius (possibly entire map). Even for battlesuits. This would encourage humans to attack. It would be great for egg hunts, too. I'm baffled by changes to Build Point regeneration - at least for aliens ! It's not like humans aren't capable of destroying alien bases, almost any of their weapons is good at that. It may make sense for humans, but for aliens - no way. Once humans finally reach alien base, grangers can barely keep up rebuilding defences. Note that alien bases are defended mostly with alien players, while human bases rely heavily on static defences. Offense Computer would reduce the need for what I think is a dangerous change.
Why I think slow Build Point regeneration is dangerous ?
- it further discourages forward bases for humans !
- once all build point are used, grangers have very little to do. They can't repair buildings, don't have combat abilities like gorges in NS (Web, Healing Spray, Bile Bomb). Grangers are yelled at when they try combat, when they block, or when they build in suboptimal way. Aliens have much steeper learning curve, and frankly, I think they need an alien with low skill requirement. Even newbie Rifle marines can contribute by wounding tyrants or dragoons. Aliens have no room for newbie players ! Notice that in most matches score distribution is very different (in Tremulous 1.1) for alien and human teams. Human team has much more even frag distribution, while for aliens it tends to be top 20% players having 90% of all frags. Probably partially due to goons being overpowered.
Taunt, Jump, Spit, Wall Walking. They're going nuts very soon. To make things worse, you can't evolve back to granger, so a dutiful builder has to remain as granger all the time.
I think it would make more sense for Grangers, not basilisks, to have healing aura. That way, even newbies could contribute to alien success.
-Even more scarce build points can make base building restricted to only experienced players, and newbie builders will be much less tolerated.
Money for killing alien buildings
This may be a bit desperate, but should work to make humans leave the base. 200 for booster, egg, 500 for overmind, 50 for everything else. Aliens currently don't need such incentives, they're ridiculously good at destroying weakly guarded defences.
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Unlike aliens, humans can't afford to build (unguarded) forward bases, such as repeater + health pad.
Actually, repeaters are now available at s1, cost 5bps and "generates" 20 bps. As for whole idea, I don't think it's something that makes humans camp and I don't think your idea will make them stop doing it. Ammo is often a problem when you sit in long hallway and camp for dretches. But yeah, on larger maps you can run out of ammo before reaching aliens base.
Grenades at s1? Aliens would be doomed since they can build on walls at s1, credits aren't problem. Also, humans DO have base killer called pain saw. No s1 alien building can stop rambo with it (barricade can slow him down) and it kills OM in few seconds while goon need quite a lot of time to kill rc.
"Offense Computer", what do you mean by reveal? you mean something like wallhack but only for buildings? Then it would be really OPed, it would make any sense if Offense Computer costs like 30-50 bps.
I'm happy with current "anti-camp" changes, dodge is really helpful against aliens, rets don't stop dretches from biting camping humans, luci... oh whatever :P .
btw. How can alien regen nerf help humans camping?
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I'm a bit skeptical about alien regeneration nerf. It's a double-edged sword. It can enable humans to be more agressive, but it can also help them camp ! Ideal human agression booster would be something that is useful only on offense. A couple of ideas below:
Battery Pack becomes Ammo Pack
Often, humans have to pull back because they're out of ammo. Unlike aliens, humans can't afford to build (unguarded) forward bases, such as repeater + health pad. A single dragoon, which can appear as early as after 2 minues, is practically unstoppable at destroying weakly defended bases. I think it would be ok if humans could carry more ammo, if they pay for it. Energy weapons already are far ahead with ability to charge from very sturdy reactor, and multiple repeaters.
Ammo Pack would have identical functionality for energy weapons. But it would also work for Rifle, Shotgun, Flamethrower, Chaingun. Instead of extending magazines, it would allow carrying more magazines. You almost never see shotguns on the offensive, ammo capacity is too low. Flamethrower is hard to use, but people skilled at it should be allowed to pay extra for more ammo capacity. Flamethrower doesn't forgive mistakes when you're light armour marine.
Well, beginners, whom campers are, usually die before they use all of their ammunition and that change would require lots of re-balancing (especially for shotgun and chaingun). If there is a problem with flamethrower (I haven't used it much), then the ammo pack is not the fix.
Note that battery pack ONLY helps on offensive. It's nearly worthless on defense.
moar luci/pulse spam?
Grenades at S1
Come on, it's not crazy ! Grenades are nearly worthless against mobile aliens, it would only change S1 human offense capabilities. Grenade costs quite a lot for beginning ($200), about as much as armour+shotgun, and there are no helmets. Only competent marines would afford grenades at S1, and lack of helmet would make successful grenade runs much more rewarding. Can getting humans out of base at S1 be bad ?
It won't stop camping, believe me... Beginners don't use or know how to use grenades and it just makes Humans more powerful. This change would just make game more unbalanced and there will be even more difference between newbies and pros.
And just like battery pack, grenade is nearly worthless on defense.
Well... mostly true. A well-placed nade when defending can be useful, though.
S1 Humans have nothing that approaches dragoon at building destruction.
One word: saw
Humans don't need fucking *defense* computer !
It's interesting that teslas now don't need the computer and it got another function. But humans already have too many camping incentives. Therefore, Defense Computer becomes Offense Computer. Long range scanner. Offense Computer would reveal all alien buildings within a huge radius (possibly entire map). Even for battlesuits. This would encourage humans to attack. It would be great for egg hunts, too. I'm baffled by changes to Build Point regeneration - at least for aliens ! It's not like humans aren't capable of destroying alien bases, almost any of their weapons is good at that. It may make sense for humans, but for aliens - no way. Once humans finally reach alien base, grangers can barely keep up rebuilding defences. Note that alien bases are defended mostly with alien players, while human bases rely heavily on static defences. Offense Computer would reduce the need for what I think is a dangerous change.
Hmm... I am not sure how a long range radar helps with the camping problem... It is not like the campers are afraid of alien bases. They don't want to lose their valuable equipment.
Aliens have no room for newbie players!
Yes, it is hard to learn to play aliens but learning can be also fun and beginners can always play humans when they get bored in getting owned. People have to stop whining about feeding. Beginners will die often in any online FPS... What can the beginners do when they are told not to die? Build bad bases, sit in a corner or stop playing the game? I just get bored and TK the whiners... You should try it sometimes. :(
Money for killing alien buildings
This may be a bit desperate, but should work to make humans leave the base. 200 for booster, egg, 500 for overmind, 50 for everything else. Aliens currently don't need such incentives, they're ridiculously good at destroying weakly guarded defences.
So bad builders will be even more harm to the team... and it is not hard for humans to blow the defences up and kill some eggs ($). Yes, it is a bit desperate. :)
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Humans already get credits when they kill eggs and OM. I don't like the idea of DC showing you where alien structures are because that basically negates your attempts to get forward bases built, which I think both sides should do. DC should stay how it currently is in MG testing (and maybe let you see HUMAN structures through walls, just a little bit helpful if humans have a forward base or have moved.) I think grenades at s1 is a good idea and should at least be tested on Dev server. I have thought about this and I can't really see any negative aspects to this. It will not be overpowered because humans will not have helmets so it will be difficult to get to aliens base to drop the thing, but it will be helpful if used correctly and it can allow a human to damage the alien's base significantly. This may require the aliens to spread out their base a bit, thus improving the game play. I don't know about buying ammo, but I think that should be at least tested once.
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Grens at S1? No:
300 creds = two dead dretches (If I am not mistaken) -> painsaw + nade = dead default base on ATCS. The gren will blow up both eggs and hurt the OM, and then the painsaw finishes it off in no time.
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Grens at S1? No:
300 creds = two dead dretches (If I am not mistaken) -> painsaw + nade = dead default base on ATCS. The gren will blow up both eggs and hurt the OM, and then the painsaw finishes it off in no time.
This.
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Grens at S1? No:
300 creds = two dead dretches (If I am not mistaken) -> painsaw + nade = dead default base on ATCS. The gren will blow up both eggs and hurt the OM, and then the painsaw finishes it off in no time.
If a painsaw with no armour or helmet destroys your entire base you deserve to lose.
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Not all games are 8 vs 8.... If 2 humans (both with nades, one with shotgun, and the other with psaw) rushed at the same time, game ovarrr.
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Not all games are 8 vs 8.... If 2 humans (both with nades, one with shotgun, and the other with psaw) rushed at the same time, game ovarrr.
and?
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Meaning: game over.
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(nade)(2) + shotgun, + painsaw + (larmour)(2) = 790 creds, 790/175(worth of dretch) = 5 kills for the humans. What happens here, is that the humans, instead of kill whoring as usual can rush and win instead of kill whoring and than aliens getting goons and the game drags on. If humans gain the upper hand, than the pressure should obviously be on the aliens to defend if they have not gotten any kills to evolve to a higher stage. If 2 humans rush with larmour it is still not an easy thing to defeat the aliens base, and if they win than they clearly did better that game so it is understandable that utilizing offensive tactics (which is what we always want the humans to do) should enable them to achieve victory. You can't have it both ways, wishing for humans not to camp, and complaining that they shouldn't be able to win if they rushed. To add to this, I think when most people envision situations like this they imagine it playing out on ATCS, which I should say, is NOT what this game should be balanced around. Yes, ATCS is by far the most highly played map, but this does not mean that we should try to change tremulous so that we have a perfect game on ATCS all the time. All the other maps, (plus the user made ones which will be included in 1.2) should be give at least close to equal consideration in balance. If this played out on Arachnid2 for example, the humans would still have a hard time winning, especially if the aliens built another egg somewhere. I can only see that this will get the humans motivated to leave their base and attack. If they manage to gain enough kills to equip themselves with the weapons and upgrades you mentioned, fight their way to the aliens base, blow it all up, and not end up with their base killed as well, than I think they are superior players or played superior in that game, and naturally should win that game, instead of it dragging out into something of a campfest as per usual.
So please, devs, can we at least give this idea a chance?
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Grens at S1? No:
300 creds = two dead dretches (If I am not mistaken) -> painsaw + nade = dead default base on ATCS. The gren will blow up both eggs and hurt the OM, and then the painsaw finishes it off in no time.
This.
By the time you earn it, the eggs are likely to be spread out and there will be better defences. And as others pointed out, if you just let a human without ranged weapons or armour into your base, you deserve to lose.
Meaning: game over.
Aww, that's terrible ! How is it different from a human base getting owned by 1-2 dragoons at stage1 ? Should aliens be the only ones capable of killing enemy base at S1 ? (note: this encourages humans to camp). Actually, it's much more fair: dragoon is more like a battlesuit. Basic dragoons are available at S1, and in 1.1 they remain the best killing machines in the game. They kill everything up to including battlesuits, as opposed to grenades which are only good against structures. Two grenades are much easier to lose than two dragoons which continue to bring you evo points and make you harder to kill.
(about battery pack working for ammo too)
Well, beginners, whom campers are, usually die before they use all of their ammunition and that change would require lots of re-balancing (especially for shotgun and chaingun). If there is a problem with flamethrower (I haven't used it much), then the ammo pack is not the fix.
Quote
Beginners is one thing, and making things easier for beginners should also include 1) roles for less skilled alien players 2) interface improvements (buying stuff, TERRIBLE BLOCKING popup windows of death, overmind/rc status icon... the list is very long).
For everyone that's not a beginner, this would improve offensive capabilities of humans.
Shotgun would genuinely benefit from this. I don't say ammo pack is a fix for flamethrower - but it wouldn't help. As for chaingun, I don't think it would imbalance things because using chaingun properly in LA makes you extremely vulnerable.
S1 Humans have nothing that approaches dragoon at building destruction.
One word: saw
One word: battlesut.
Battlesuit is the closest equivalent of a dragoon. It makes you much tougher in combat and much harder to die. Painsaw is more like a marauder which managed to find a base's blind spot.
I have yet another idea.
Tremulous is, thanks to its mechanics, a winner-wins-more game. Joining a game in progress can be frustrating, when everyone around you is a well equipped marine or high stage alien. Earning your first credits/evos can be prohibitively hard. This is very unfair, because players who are there from the start but only camp in their base (or sit in a dark corner) doing nothing will have more resources than a newcomer.
My proposal: players joining at S2 or later get a one-time bonus of 200 credits/2 evos.
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Tyrants at stage 1. One rant won't kill your base.
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Tyrants at stage 1. One rant won't kill your base.
Why stop at tyrants ? Something better - dragoons ! Oh, wait...
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1 dretch is worth 150 credits in 1.2 (I don't know if they changed it, but on last dev game norf or console said something like that), so 2 dretches = nade + larmor (= few tubes/egg(s) down). Killing 2 dretches is quite easy and, as stated above, it can kill egg and aliens can't stop it from explode. And s1 aliens defenses CAN NOT stop s1 humans unless aliens build tubeforest right at base entrance, but hey! 'I have a nade' and all defenses are down.
By the time you earn it, the eggs are likely to be spread out and there will be better defences. And as others pointed out, if you just let a human without ranged weapons or armour into your base, you deserve to lose.
Hell, you mean someone should always stay in base in case some rage psaw come? As I stated above, s1 aliens defenses can't stop s1 humans, light armor greatly reduces dmg dealt by acid tube.
Aww, that's terrible ! How is it different from a human base getting owned by 1-2 dragoons at stage1
Stop building 1.1 bases and goon won't be able to kill a ret without losing 150hp, not to mention that he has to escape.
Actually, it's much more fair: dragoon is more like a battlesuit.[...] They kill everything up to including battlesuits
Dretches also can kill almost everythingone including battlesuits and lucis. Also, in 1.2 killing bsuits as goon is REALLY hard, not just hard (like in 1.1), since they can dodge which make damn really hard to hit. I'd be nice if pounce actually takes some stamina from victim instead of pushing it off.
[pathetic quote tower]
One word: battlesut.
Battlesuit is the closest equivalent of a dragoon. It makes you much tougher in combat and much harder to die. Painsaw is more like a marauder which managed to find a base's blind spot.
What do you mean? (I don't get the point of typing it as response to "one word: saw").
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One word: battlesut.
Battlesuit is the closest equivalent of a dragoon. It makes you much tougher in combat and much harder to die. Painsaw is more like a marauder which managed to find a base's blind spot.
Helmet is definitely the equal to a dragoon. Even two shotguns w/ light armor.
Aww, that's terrible ! How is it different from a human base getting owned by 1-2 dragoons at stage1 ? Should aliens be the only ones capable of killing enemy base at S1 ? (note: this encourages humans to camp). Actually, it's much more fair: dragoon is more like a battlesuit. Basic dragoons are available at S1, and in 1.1 they remain the best killing machines in the game. They kill everything up to including battlesuits, as opposed to grenades which are only good against structures. Two grenades are much easier to lose than two dragoons which continue to bring you evo points and make you harder to kill.
1) Hop proof base.
2) Who says that there will be 1-2 goons at the start? ::).
3) Human teamwork is the alien's nightmare. Two shotguns with light armor will easily take down a goon.
4) Dragoons aren't the best killing machines, that's a tyrants job (the word, tank, comes to mind :P). Dragoons are better for getting quick kills, then leaving, while tyrants just charge, and annihilate everything in their path.
You sound like you haven't played enough games that incorporate good human teamwork/strategy.
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Helmet is definitely the equal to a dragoon. Even two shotguns w/ light armor.
Helmet is S2. Shotguns can't attack bases. Neither can helmet. I have never seen helmet rushes. Off-topic.
Shotguns being (or not) capable of taking down a dragoon is highly dependent on situation. On maps like arachnid2, karith, niveus, transit, a dragoon is worth its weight in gold. If shotguns annoy you, attack somewhere else. Besides, shotgunners need to outmaneuver dragoon to win. Dragoon only needs 1 pounce from surprise. If dragoon can take one of shotgunners from surprise (which is not far-fetched at all, and can be done very quickly) it becomes 1 goon vs 1 shotgun. A shotgunner can't insta-kill a dragoon.
1) Hop proof base.
It's much easier to build a painsaw-proof base than marauder-proof base. Marauder can do other things and retreat quickly if base is not suitable for attack. Painsaw is slow, noisy and vulnerable. If alien base happens to be well-protected, good luck defending yourself on the way back to base.
2) Who says that there will be 1-2 goons at the start? ::).
I do.
1-2 goons at S1 is still a bit generous, unless you're playing 6v6 or smaller. Some servers have 18 maxplayers, most are bigger.
3) Human teamwork is the alien's nightmare.
A dragoon doesn't particularly need teamwork, but it doesn't mean it doesn't benefit from it. When marines are highly focused on the dragoon, marauders, basilisks or even (especially?) dretches can deal terrible damage.
4) Dragoons aren't the best killing machines, that's a tyrants job (the word, tank, comes to mind :P).
Yes - big, unsophisticated, inflexible bullet sponges which have trouble navigating maps, ambushing, and running away. Tyrants and dragons are my favoured enemy. I have trouble hitting dretches, but lasgun is wonderful against bigger aliens.
Ok, tyrants are not terrible, but they're more like walls, corner-campers. They can be repelled. You only need to turn your back for a couple of seconds for a competent dragoon to strike fast, hard, and accurately.
You sound like you haven't played enough games that incorporate good human teamwork/strategy.
You sound like you need to focus on reasoning and not personal attacks.
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Helmet is S2.
Battlesuit is s3 :angel:
Shotguns being (or not) capable of taking down a dragoon is highly dependent on situation.
Actually sometimes 2 shotguns can kill goon before it notices it's being attacked.
Besides, shotgunners need to outmaneuver dragoon to win. [...]. Dragoon only needs 1 pounce from surprise.
Every human needs to outmaneuver an alien to win, but alien has limited range. And when humans is "surprised" by a goon, he dodges away from goon's bite range.
[here goes some counter arguments for borsuk, imagine they are there please :P ]
My tip for you: Don't compare aliens to humans, certain classes to certain equipment sets, since they ARE different. Comparing them is first step to making them similar = DO NOT WANT.
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Helmet is S2. Shotguns can't attack bases. Neither can helmet. I have never seen helmet rushes.
Wow, really? At s3, helmet+luci is the most common/useful rush combo.
It's much easier to build a painsaw-proof base than marauder-proof base. Marauder can do other things and retreat quickly if base is not suitable for attack. Painsaw is slow, noisy and vulnerable. If alien base happens to be well-protected, good luck defending yourself on the way back to base.
Painsaw is noisy while being used. On the way to the base, use blaster, then have an itemact psaw bind.
True, marauders can attack fast, and retreat fast, but there are many bases that are marauder proof.
Yes - big, unsophisticated, inflexible bullet sponges which have trouble navigating maps, ambushing, and running away. Tyrants and dragons are my favoured enemy. I have trouble hitting dretches, but lasgun is wonderful against bigger aliens.
Ok, tyrants are not terrible, but they're more like walls, corner-campers. They can be repelled. You only need to turn your back for a couple of seconds for a competent dragoon to strike fast, hard, and accurately.
Quite the opposite, people who know how to use a tyrant are practically unstoppable. Lasguns fail against larger aliens unless you are camping in the base. The luci/chainsuit is the best anti-rant weapon.
You sound like you need to focus on reasoning and not personal attacks.
Just saying you should play on different servers sometimes.
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Helmet is S2. Shotguns can't attack bases. Neither can helmet. I have never seen helmet rushes.
Wow, really? At s3, helmet+luci is the most common/useful rush combo.
No combo works on helmets alone, and helmets, while useful, don't cripple anyone except stealth-reliant basilisk. I compared dragoon to battlesuit because it makes a night and day difference in quality. In best case scenario you still need a lot of time to kill a battlesuit, especially with lighter aliens like dretches.
It's much easier to build a painsaw-proof base than marauder-proof base. Marauder can do other things and retreat quickly if base is not suitable for attack. Painsaw is slow, noisy and vulnerable. If alien base happens to be well-protected, good luck defending yourself on the way back to base.
Painsaw is noisy while being used. On the way to the base, use blaster, then have an itemact psaw bind.
True, marauders can attack fast, and retreat fast, but there are many bases that are marauder proof.
What you say implies that 1) painsaw marines should walk around virtually defenceless. And - I hope - we are still debating grenades at S1. At S1 walking around defenceless and without helmet is not a wise thing to do. You can switch weapons, but tremulous is a fast paced game and the time required to switch weapon can easily cost you life. Certainly against dretches which can pop up at any time. 2) "Many bases are marauder proof"... this implies marauders rule out certain base layouts, which I think is quite an accomplishment. You don't have to do anything special to make a base painsaw-proof, you just build as usual
Quite the opposite, people who know how to use a tyrant are practically unstoppable. Lasguns fail against larger aliens unless you are camping in the base. The luci/chainsuit is the best anti-rant weapon.
Personal taste, no doubt, but I kill good number of goons and tyrants with lasgun. The trick is to not be on the front line. Have someone walk in front of you, even a rifles marine, and you can deal very good damage. Remember that even rifles can kill tyrants, and lasgun has higher damage actually (after factoring 2 second reload, lasgun has much higher damage over time). One of things that actually work on tyrants/goons is pursuing them once they're a bit wounded. And gang up on them. Lasgun shines there - great accuracy, no refractory period.
You sound like you need to focus on reasoning and not personal attacks.
Just saying you should play on different servers sometimes.
Actually I can't wait to play on development server. The news of gameplay changes revitalised my interest in Tremulous. See you tomorrow.
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I think mooseberry was spot on when he said humans are kill whoring at S1. It's very rare to see an actual attack on alien base in S1 - I mean an attack which deals visible damage. Pecking the retarded starting base at Tremor doesn't count. Usually humans just deathmatch with aliens in the safest areas of the map to gain credits. Even when humans attack, they use their rifle>dretch advantage, and focus on kills, not destroying buildings.
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1 dretch is worth 150 credits in 1.2 (I don't know if they changed it, but on last dev game norf or console said something like that), so 2 dretches = nade + larmor (= few tubes/egg(s) down). Killing 2 dretches is quite easy and, as stated above, it can kill egg and aliens can't stop it from explode. And s1 aliens defenses CAN NOT stop s1 humans unless aliens build tubeforest right at base entrance, but hey! 'I have a nade' and all defenses are down.
1 barricade, (which are much more useful in 1.2) can do a fine job of slowing down psaws which will be hurt by acid tubes.
By the time you earn it, the eggs are likely to be spread out and there will be better defences. And as others pointed out, if you just let a human without ranged weapons or armour into your base, you deserve to lose.
Hell, you mean someone should always stay in base in case some rage psaw come? As I stated above, s1 aliens defenses can't stop s1 humans, light armor greatly reduces dmg dealt by acid tube.
This doesn't make sense. If there is nobody in the base and it is not a good base than a psaw without a nade will kill it anyway.
Aww, that's terrible ! How is it different from a human base getting owned by 1-2 dragoons at stage1
Stop building 1.1 bases and goon won't be able to kill a ret without losing 150hp, not to mention that he has to escape.
If you attack in 1.2 style you can do quite some damage to a decent humans base. Besides this implies that humans actually built a base which does not happen a lot for the first few min in pubs.
Also I'm not going to bother addressing your face's comments because they disolved mostly into petty arguments with borsuk.
What it comes down to is this, right now, on any large map aliens win somewhere around the range of 65% of the time. On ATCS it's more even but aliens still win more. Humans need to attack more often and this is what could help it.
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1 dretch is worth 150 credits in 1.2 (I don't know if they changed it, but on last dev game norf or console said something like that), so 2 dretches = nade + larmor (= few tubes/egg(s) down). Killing 2 dretches is quite easy and, as stated above, it can kill egg and aliens can't stop it from explode. And s1 aliens defenses CAN NOT stop s1 humans unless aliens build tubeforest right at base entrance, but hey! 'I have a nade' and all defenses are down.
1 barricade, (which are much more useful in 1.2) can do a fine job of slowing down psaws which will be hurt by acid tubes.
By the time you earn it, the eggs are likely to be spread out and there will be better defences. And as others pointed out, if you just let a human without ranged weapons or armour into your base, you deserve to lose.
Hell, you mean someone should always stay in base in case some rage psaw come? As I stated above, s1 aliens defenses can't stop s1 humans, light armor greatly reduces dmg dealt by acid tube.
This doesn't make sense. If there is nobody in the base and it is not a good base than a psaw without a nade will kill it anyway.
Aww, that's terrible ! How is it different from a human base getting owned by 1-2 dragoons at stage1
Stop building 1.1 bases and goon won't be able to kill a ret without losing 150hp, not to mention that he has to escape.
If you attack in 1.2 style you can do quite some damage to a decent humans base. Besides this implies that humans actually built a base which does not happen a lot for the first few min in pubs.
Also I'm not going to bother addressing your face's comments because they disolved mostly into petty arguments with borsuk.
What it comes down to is this, right now, on any large map aliens win somewhere around the range of 65% of the time. On ATCS it's more even but aliens still win more. Humans need to attack more often and this is what could help it.
you should try playing with the new repeaters, it's very easy for humans to put a lot of pressure on aliens early.
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I don't like grenades at stage 1 for two reasons:
I think it's unnecessary. I really don't feel like humans have too hard a time attacking alien bases, and really don't think they have a harder time than aliens attacking human bases.
Grenades would be especially powerful at stage 1 because aliens can only build on floors. I guess there's the argument that humans without helmets are easier targets and so they'd have a harder time getting to use their grenades, but that's not the kind of "balance" I want. It's trending into "super weapon" territory: something that's overpowered so the only way to balance it is to make failing to use it lame.
I'd rather just save grenades for stage 2 where humans have more armour, aliens are stronger, and alien builders have a way of countering them. Where they've been balanced for since their introduction. So I think I'd need some convincing -- in the form of playing dev games with me, not debating -- to come around to this idea.
borsuk: I think you'll like how the new repeaters affect human play. Last few weeks humans have been far more aggressive than I've ever seen them. Can you imagine a 1.1 game where humans manage to overtake and hold the entire middle area of UTSC?
Also, good catch on the creep-dodge thing. I was thinking it'd probably be okay to disable dodge entirely when on creep (since any kind of weakening of the dodge would probably make it effectively useless), but then I wondered if the same shouldn't be true for whenever a human is slowed (basilisk gas has a slowing effect in addition to aim muddling). Thoughts?
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Also, good catch on the creep-dodge thing. I was thinking it'd probably be okay to disable dodge entirely when on creep (since any kind of weakening of the dodge would probably make it effectively useless), but then I wondered if the same shouldn't be true for whenever a human is slowed (basilisk gas has a slowing effect in addition to aim muddling). Thoughts?
Sounds like good idea, and
I'd be nice if pounce actually takes some stamina from victim instead of while pushing it off.
:laugh:
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I'd be nice if pounce actually takes some stamina from victim instead of while pushing it off.
:laugh:
Yikes.
Nice sig btw, though we've been doing 19:00 GMT since the last (stupid) daylight savings time change. 15:00 on the east coast of the United States. :P
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I don't like grenades at stage 1 for two reasons:
I think it's unnecessary. I really don't feel like humans have too hard a time attacking alien bases, and really don't think they have a harder time than aliens attacking human bases.
I think it's quite the opposite - while it's pretty common to see humans in alien base at S1, they almost never shoot buildings. And it's hard to blame them - 2 second reload, ammo drain and so forth. Shooting the base means you expose yourself to alien counterattack while you're reloading. Once they're low on health/ammo or a goon shows up they hole up in their base.
Grenades would be especially powerful at stage 1 because aliens can only build on floors. I guess there's the argument that humans without helmets are easier targets and so they'd have a harder time getting to use their grenades, but that's not the kind of "balance" I want. It's trending into "super weapon" territory: something that's overpowered so the only way to balance it is to make failing to use it lame.
If acid tubes are a bit spread out they not only cover a larger area (preventing painsaw runs etc) but they also limit damage done by grenades. I don't think humans can afford to spend $200 on each acid tube. Note that grangers in 1.1 have much more freedom in building their bases. Humans are extremely conservative and risk-averse when it comes to base buillding. And it's very hard to see a human comeback - once their base is down, relocations are rare, even if you get 2 builders somewhere fast. You need nodes, armory, whole pile of turrets and heal pad. Aliens only really need eggs and overmind, they can usually defend their base using players only.
So I think I'd need some convincing -- in the form of playing dev games with me, not debating -- to come around to this idea.
How do you convince something that grenades can work well in S1 when they're disabled ?
borsuk: I think you'll like how the new repeaters affect human play. Last few weeks humans have been far more aggressive than I've ever seen them.
Here's an idea for repeaters.
Repeater -> Tesla Generator (only name changes)
Tesla turret -> S2
Tesla turrets can only be built near tesla generators
Now because teslas would be impossible to build near reactor, humans would get a good tool for setting up forward bases at S2, without strenghtening human main base defences. And nothing of value would be lost - no one uses teslas in 1.1, I keep asking people because i remember seeing them used a year ago or so, but everyone tells me they suck.
Advanced goons are S2, right ? So aliens would be able to take out teslas isolated from base without much trouble. And repeaters would be excellent targets for marauders.
I want to playtest the development version of tremulous too, but here's an idea for basilisks:
- advanced basilisk is invisible on radar as long as its stationary. In 1.1 helmets are a hard counter to basilisks, and so are battlesuits. With this change helmets would still help, but basilisks would be worth upgrading.
- poison breath doesn't work on battlesuits (i think it sounds silly and unnatural)
- while holding a marine, basilisk is immune to friendly fire
- advanced basilisk can grab battlesuits, but with a catch: it can't both attack and hold at the same time. As soon as basilisk starts scratching the battlesuit, battlesuit is only limited like 1.1 basilisk (battlesuit can rotate but not move). But if basilisk refrains from attacking, battlesuit can't even rotate. Gameplay implications: 1) adv. basilisks has interesting choices to make 2) adv. basilisks can grab battlesuits from behind and attack if they want to deal damage 3) adv. basilisk becomes a team player, because adv. basilisk with another alien (even granger) can kill a battlesuit given enough time. It would encourage teamplay on both alien and human side. Humans should help and cover each other, and aliens would hunt together. Battlesuits are especially juicy target for basilisks, because they can't have helmets.
- healing aura goes to granger. Grangers are losing their wits out of boredom, and aliens need some helpful class for low skill players.
When is the next dev game ?
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Now because teslas would be impossible to build near reactor, humans would get a good tool for setting up forward bases at S2, without strenghtening human main base defences. And nothing of value would be lost - no one uses teslas in 1.1, I keep asking people because i remember seeing them used a year ago or so, but everyone tells me they suck.
They might not in 1.1, but in 1.2 they are a lot more useful and are used.
- poison breath doesn't work on battlesuits (i think it sounds silly and unnatural)
It's only unnatural if the suit is fully sealed. Making a suit like that have an internal air supply etc would add a lot of expense, that solders would probably prefer be spent on making it stop bullets better. As I recall, none of the gear is designed for fighting aliens, so it's entirely possible that the use it was designed for didn't require defence against gas.
- healing aura goes to granger. Grangers are losing their wits out of boredom, and aliens need some helpful class for low skill players.
That would put grangers near the front line, where they'll just die. If there's nothing left to build, then evolve :).
When is the next dev game ?
19:00 GMT today, about an hour and a half time.
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How do you convince something that grenades can work well in S1 when they're disabled ?
I'm sorry, I meant convince me that there's a problem that moving grenades to stage 1 would solve, because I don't see one, and I don't believe it would make things more fun by itself.
Here's an idea for repeaters.
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Teslas are indeed useful now, especially with the new repeaters. For instance, Nexus has a couple places where you can use a repeater and two teslas to seal off doors quite effectively. It's also good to have one in your main base to ward off marauders.
- advanced basilisk is invisible on radar as long as its stationary. In 1.1 helmets are a hard counter to basilisks, and so are battlesuits. With this change helmets would still help, but basilisks would be worth upgrading.
- poison breath doesn't work on battlesuits (i think it sounds silly and unnatural)
- while holding a marine, basilisk is immune to friendly fire
- advanced basilisk can grab battlesuits, but with a catch: it can't both attack and hold at the same time. As soon as basilisk starts scratching the battlesuit, battlesuit is only limited like 1.1 basilisk (battlesuit can rotate but not move). But if basilisk refrains from attacking, battlesuit can't even rotate. Gameplay implications: 1) adv. basilisks has interesting choices to make 2) adv. basilisks can grab battlesuits from behind and attack if they want to deal damage 3) adv. basilisk becomes a team player, because adv. basilisk with another alien (even granger) can kill a battlesuit given enough time. It would encourage teamplay on both alien and human side. Humans should help and cover each other, and aliens would hunt together. Battlesuits are especially juicy target for basilisks, because they can't have helmets.
I think you should try things out as we currently have them first. The basilisk is a much more useful class now, and not nearly as reliant on stealth. The gas doesn't poison anymore, but it does slow humans down (making them easier targets for teammates), and their regeneration makes them good at hitting-and-running even when humans know where they are. And, also, we've been playtesting without friendly fire (except for structures).
- healing aura goes to granger. Grangers are losing their wits out of boredom, and aliens need some helpful class for low skill players.
The basilisk is a worthy class for low skill players, and now that aliens get partial frags it's not impossible for them to afford one. Just follow your teammates around as a dretch and take bites out of whomever they're attacking until you have a frag.
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The games are on the US server today. Official start time is in 20 minutes, but it looks like there're 5 people on there right now already (soon to be 6).
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Impressions from yesterday's games:
- many things are hard to judge properly with 150-180 ping
- Repeaters allow humans to crawl their bases forward, until they can reach alien base from the safety of their turrets. But overall, repeaters like this are more interesting than 1.1 stalemate
- Humans go out at S1, deathmatch as usual, don't attack alien buildings, then retreat
- many if not most games still end during Sudden Death, which encourages humans to camp even more. Humans are at a disadvantage when attacking, especially during Sudden Death. They don't regenerate health, armour, and move slowly.
- Creep coverage is buggy on some/all maps. On nexus6, aliens can plant structures in upper hallways without any eggs nearby. Does Overmind generate huge (vertical) radius or what ? On nano, which looks like a repainted CTF map, aliens can plant structures as far as the middle of the map (upper level, I think it's called 'Tower'), in red hallway, and at the start of blue hallway. Health regen icon is lighted up. The server was empty, default buildings.
- OnCreep regeneration status icon is not nearly as conspicuous as it should be. Unless you're specifically looking for it, it's easy to miss.
- Aliens got +50 building points with no catches, right ? The way repeaters work forces humans to spread their buildings a bit, but aliens have no such restriction (ok, there's grenade and luci spam). A bit later in the game aliens can make their base more compact than humans.
- maybe it was just lag (most people seemed to be from Europe), but Marauder was the least popular class. I guess it works as base raider and jetpack hunter.
- as expected, people say things like "Someone play a basilisk and follow me because I want healing for free and playing basilisk myself is beneath me". Not literally, of course. Norfenstein said putting healing aura on granger (non-combat alien) would lead to many granger deaths (feedings), but I disagree. Grangers are poor at combat so most players naturally learn to keep distance and stay behind fellow aliens' backs. Meanwhile basilisks (combat aliens) with heal aura are discoraged from fighting, from taking risks etc. This leads to conflict of interests. Basilisk would like to have some action, other players want it to stay put like a granger.
- interface improvements are very nice. I also like turret sounds (it alerts humans, and allows aliens to learn turret dodging better). Overcharged luci is nice.
- Friendly Fire off sucks.
- Dretches disallowed to damage ...teslas ? Because, what, they rotate too slow ? Come on ! (that's what Help section says)
- It would make sense to give aliens... ability to dodge. But for different reasons. Dragoon's pounce is very flexible and precise, but other aliens' jumps are very predictable. 1.1 marauders are more floaty. 1.2 basilisks jump higher, this makes them more floaty (with justification like "to make it easier to jump on heads - probably the same as 1.1 marauder). Aliens have infinite stamina, and keys to spare (no boost, reload, buy stuff...). I think they should get dodge in the form of a *shorter*, easier to control jump. Essentially aliens like dretch, basilisk, marauder would have two jump keys - normal jump (like now) and short jump. Alternatively, jumping could work like dragoon's pounce (ability to choose direction, distance), just without damage.
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One thing I would like is feedback for the basi, so it knows who it's healing. It's hard to stay out from under people's feet, and I'm never sure how close I need to be.
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- Repeaters allow humans to crawl their bases forward, until they can reach alien base from the safety of their turrets. But overall, repeaters like this are more interesting than 1.1 stalemate
Yes, you can get turrets... 2 turrets... wow.
- Humans go out at S1, deathmatch as usual, don't attack alien buildings, then retreat
The problem is that people (me) prefer going back to the base when aliens hits me (->1 hit, have to use medkit -> 2nd hit, no medkit, back to base). ::)
- many if not most games still end during Sudden Death, which encourages humans to camp even more. Humans are at a disadvantage when attacking, especially during Sudden Death. They don't regenerate health, armour, and move slowly.
That's true and it is because Tyrant does such a ridiculous amount of damage so going out without 100 hp is bad. Couple of small aliens hit you -> back to base.
- Creep coverage is buggy on some/all maps. On nexus6, aliens can plant structures in upper hallways without any eggs nearby. Does Overmind generate huge (vertical) radius or what ?
It is either the Overmind or the eggs which are located on the upper platform. It is normal. I can build tubes on top of the middle building at ATCS when I have egg inside.
On nano, which looks like a repainted CTF map, aliens can plant structures as far as the middle of the map (upper level, I think it's called 'Tower'), in red hallway, and at the start of blue hallway. Health regen icon is lighted up. The server was empty, default buildings.
It is a small map so it is possible.
- as expected, people say things like "Someone play a basilisk and follow me because I want healing for free and playing basilisk myself is beneath me". Not literally, of course. Norfenstein said putting healing aura on granger (non-combat alien) would lead to many granger deaths (feedings), but I disagree. Grangers are poor at combat so most players naturally learn to keep distance and stay behind fellow aliens' backs. Meanwhile basilisks (combat aliens) with heal aura are discoraged from fighting, from taking risks etc. This leads to conflict of interests. Basilisk would like to have some action, other players want it to stay put like a granger.
It wouldn't make much sense to give healing to... granger. And granger is so slow and fat (<3) that it would have no chance to survive when other aliens die or retreat. I fail to see how healing would discourage basilisks. Maybe not-so-skillful player don't want to go fight and feed and therefore prefer healing but I think more experienced players will fight normally and heal teammates when regenerating. Basilisk healing might cause situations where most of aliens just camp as a basi and heal the few pros who still keep fighting... I don't know if it is a good or bad thing because it depends on many factors. It could be a new "evil" like camping.
- Friendly Fire off sucks.
Yep. About shooting team mates... Did anyone notice when I managed to fire my team mate, who was standing at the alien base door (Tremor), with a almost fully charged luci shot and the team mate flew to the windows at the other side of the room? That was quite funny weird.
- Dretches disallowed to damage ...teslas ? Because, what, they rotate too slow ? Come on ! (that's what Help section says)
Can you even get near teslas before you burn to crisp?
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- Humans go out at S1, deathmatch as usual, don't attack alien buildings, then retreat
The problem is that people (me) prefer going back to the base when aliens hits me (->1 hit, have to use medkit -> 2nd hit, no medkit, back to base). ::)
It wouldn't make much sense to give healing to... granger. And granger is so slow and fat (<3) that it would have no chance to survive when other aliens die or retreat. I fail to see how healing would discourage basilisks. Maybe not-so-skillful player don't want to go fight and feed and therefore prefer healing but I think more experienced players will fight normally and heal teammates when regenerating. Basilisk healing might cause situations where most of aliens just camp as a basi and heal the few pros who still keep fighting... I don't know if it is a good or bad thing because it depends on many factors. It could be a new "evil" like camping.
Dev games are too rare to provide a meaningful sample. And because of people involved humans are likely to be more agressive than on average server. I'd say work on 1.2 a bit more, iron out some wrinkles, and release it. It's already quite nice and exposing it to more people would help find more bugs and balance issues.
- Dretches disallowed to damage ...teslas ? Because, what, they rotate too slow ? Come on ! (that's what Help section says)
Can you even get near teslas before you burn to crisp?
My point exactly - it's extremely hard to reach a tesla as dretch. Most easily if there's a tyrant attacking base and tesla focuses on it. That's why I think disallowing damage to teslas is overkill. Not that it matters much - it is very rare to be able to reach a tesla as dretch...
I'm deffinitely looking forward to more development games.
b0rsuk
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Dretches can't attack any buildings, unless they are still glowy-blue, then they can attack them all.
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Nice sig btw, though we've been doing 19:00 GMT since the last (stupid) daylight savings time change. 15:00 on the east coast of the United States.
Will fix this asap, thanks :P
Dev games are too rare to provide a meaningful sample. And because of people involved humans are likely to be more agressive than on average server.
That's true, but TBH we can't do anything about that, maybe simulate average server("Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?" :P ).
My point exactly - it's extremely hard to reach a tesla as dretch. Most easily if there's a tyrant attacking base and tesla focuses on it. That's why I think disallowing damage to teslas is overkill. Not that it matters much - it is very rare to be able to reach a tesla as dretch...
I think it's supposed to be like that - rets can easily bigger aliens, but fail against smaller ones, because they can go trough them before they aim. Teslas are weaker, but they push smaller aliens away and don't have to spin up.
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Nice sig btw, though we've been doing 19:00 GMT since the last (stupid) daylight savings time change. 15:00 on the east coast of the United States.
Will fix this asap, thanks :P
Dev games are too rare to provide a meaningful sample. And because of people involved humans are likely to be more agressive than on average server.
That's true, but TBH we can't do anything about that, maybe simulate average server("Ok let's plan it out. Asva, you are nub, go sit on rets, I will build, you two go feed like hell, you go pwn their asses, and everyone else camp in the hallway, roger?" :P ).
My point exactly - it's extremely hard to reach a tesla as dretch. Most easily if there's a tyrant attacking base and tesla focuses on it. That's why I think disallowing damage to teslas is overkill. Not that it matters much - it is very rare to be able to reach a tesla as dretch...
I think it's supposed to be like that - rets can easily bigger aliens, but fail against smaller ones, because they can go trough them before they aim. Teslas are weaker, but they push smaller aliens away and don't have to spin up.
sigged
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After some more games I'd like to take another opportunity to compile a list of things I think should be changed:
- Poison is too strong and annoying. I'd reduce it's damage to half and completely remove / drastically reduce the aim bumping. Those bumps are only annoying and doesn't make you aim worse at all.
- No basilisk healing aura for other aliens - It makes building forward eggs much less important. Before the stage2 booster I think the alien team is too strong with the fast healing. Also i don't think you should force a fighting class to be a boring medic. The basilisk would still benefit from it's faster healing though.
- Dretches being able to damage buildings. I don't see how it would make things horribly unbalanced. With a properly built base the dretches will die quickly enough nonetheless. The argument that dretches could take a base down completely doesn't hold. If you build a base like that you deserve to lose. A slightly valid argument however would be that the dretches could mindlessly rush the human base forcing tedious repairing. However, if the dretches do rush like that, chances are you will kill them and gain stage 2 with the DC. Which brings us to,
- Bump up the DC effect a notch - I don't think it's valuable enough. When aliens are attacking they usually take down stuff quickly enough for the DC to have no effect at all. I think you could easily double it's repair rate to compensate for the previous idea without making it overpowered.
- Bump the massdriver damage from 38 to 40 or preferably more (45 perhaps?). It would make it noticeably better against basis and goons. I think it's too expensive right now compared to the lasgun, which in many cases canis better than the MD. (You will also need a batterypack to make it effective, furtherer bumping up it's expense)
- The massdriver could have 1 clip like the lasgun, but should overheat if you shoot it too frequently. It will constantly cool down if you don't fire however. If you manage to overheat it you should not be able to fire until it's completely cooled down. I think it could overheat after 7 shots or so. The idea of this change is mainly to remain the same effectiveness against aliens, but make it possible to shoot down structures with it.
- Slightly smaller size and health for the Adv. Goon. - I think it's too clumpsy compared to the stage1 goon. I'd actually prefer the smaller goon in a fight as aliens. Also, for example on ATCS it's inferior to the normal goon in the bases since it can't jump up in that "gap". The reduced health is to compensate for the smaller size. (I know I've suggested this before btw)
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Basi needs some fixing IMO.
Healing aura, silent footsteps, increased grab, jumping like a mara, gas works on all armour...
There's a reason why Basilisk costs 1 evo and Tyrant 5. There's no reason for Basi being able to disable the whole human team with a cunning gas, or being the best alien there is - due to regeneration.
Basi was a very great weapon with a skilled player before, no need to pump it's steroids way up. I vote for silent footsteps and maybe increased regeneration for itself. That's all.
About Cady's suggestions, I really like the MD damage bumping. And also dretch being able to damage buildables.
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In the past the DC made turrets smarter and better. Does it still do that?
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I have solution to fix the beginning of matches - the rifle against dretch.
-Decrease amount of credits for killing dretch from 175(150?) to 75 - Humans won't reach stage 2 fastly and the dretches will have more chances.
-Increase dretch hp +3. (It makes that dretch will die in 6-7 bullets)
-Dretch should kill turrets like in 1.1.
-I agree about damage, but the bite rate is far to slow! It should be changed back.
@Meisseli
Totally agree. Silent footstep would be good, but others things absolutely not.
The massdriver could have 1 clip like the lasgun, but should overheat if you shoot it too frequently.
I'm not really sure about that, it seems imbalanced. BUT a little damage bonus is welcome. 41 is fine.
Pounce damage is unchanged. What has changed is that light armour no longer gives as much protection against nonlocational damage as light armour + helmet. And headchomps still do significantly more damage than the pounce.
Wut? Since when human with armour and helmet was better than a regular dragoon or ADVANCED dragoon? :/
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- Dretches being able to damage buildings. I don't see how it would make things horribly unbalanced. With a properly built base the dretches will die quickly enough nonetheless. The argument that dretches could take a base down completely doesn't hold. If you build a base like that you deserve to lose. A slightly valid argument however would be that the dretches could mindlessly rush the human base forcing tedious repairing. However, if the dretches do rush like that, chances are you will kill them and gain stage 2 with the DC.
i don't think you were around to see khalsa and catalyc abuse this... trust me, it's horribly unbalanced.
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The issue with dretches damaging all buildings is pretty obvious when you play with it.
It's far too easy to prematurely end a game with a fast, small, and damaging alien.
The camping caused by this would be insane, as the humans don't want a dead base that early in a game.
Some may argue that goons end the game early like this, but the difference is:
The likelihood of 15 goons rushing in a 15vs15 at the thirty second mark is incredibly low.
Although turrets would keep this from happening, the reality is, in many matches, there is no builder.
I do support dretches being able to damage turrets, but with the slow-ret system implemented in the development games right now, they would be incredibly overpowered.
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Although turrets would keep this from happening, the reality is, in many matches, there is no builder.
the point is that turrets didn't stop it from happening, it was very easy to set off a chain reaction with just 2-3 dretches, even when the base has a few campers.
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Th...{snip}... in a 15vs15 a ... {snip}
I hope we are not balancing with 15 v 15 games in mind:o My €0.02.
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Basi needs some fixing IMO.
Healing aura, silent footsteps, increased grab, jumping like a mara, gas works on all armour...
There's a reason why Basilisk costs 1 evo and Tyrant 5. There's no reason for Basi being able to disable the whole human team with a cunning gas, or being the best alien there is - due to regeneration.
I think new jumping is actually a downgrade.
Note that a skilled human with a rifle can easily kill several dretches, it's not uncommon for several dretches to die to a single marine. Rifle marines routinely kill tyrants and dragons - perhaps not on themselves, but certainly with backup or in groups of 2-3. 1.1 basilisk becomes nearly worthless with introduction of helmet, and even worse at s3 when it can't even hold a battlesuit. To top it off, players with high mouse sensitivity seem to be able to shoot basilisks grabbing them from behind. Even at S1 basilisks are easily countered with some rudimentary teamplay, and are discouraged from teamplaying themselves (tyrants and dragoons love teamkilling you and stealing your lunch). Wake me up when basilisk is as useful as a rifle for marines, or can compete with dretches which cost infinitely less evo points.
Basi was a very great weapon with a skilled player before
Lies.
Basilisk is better than useless in hands of an excellent player. There's nothing a 1.1 basilisk can do other aliens can't do better. It deals less damage than a dretch, is slower and easier to hit, is worst alien to attack a base with, has hard counters in the form of helmet and battlesuit.
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Play Tremulous more before coming up with those conclusions.
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I think new jumping is actually a downgrade.
Note that a skilled human with a rifle can easily kill several dretches, it's not uncommon for several dretches to die to a single marine. Rifle marines routinely kill tyrants and dragons - perhaps not on themselves, but certainly with backup or in groups of 2-3. 1.1 basilisk becomes nearly worthless with introduction of helmet, and even worse at s3 when it can't even hold a battlesuit. To top it off, players with high mouse sensitivity seem to be able to shoot basilisks grabbing them from behind. Even at S1 basilisks are easily countered with some rudimentary teamplay, and are discouraged from teamplaying themselves (tyrants and dragoons love teamkilling you and stealing your lunch). Wake me up when basilisk is as useful as a rifle for marines, or can compete with dretches which cost infinitely less evo points.
Uh? How does that helmet make basi worthless? It's still the same - get behind him and swipe swipe. Players with high mouse sensitivity are not able to shoot basis if the basi knows what to do, trust me. Wakey wakey borsuk, have you ever tried to kill a skilled stage two human with a dretch, and then compared it to killing him with a basi?
About battlesuits, why would you even try them with basi? Not all players use battlesuit, you can actually pick your enemies instead of blindly running to them all.
Lies.
Basilisk is better than useless in hands of an excellent player. There's nothing a 1.1 basilisk can do other aliens can't do better. It deals less damage than a dretch, is slower and easier to hit, is worst alien to attack a base with, has hard counters in the form of helmet and battlesuit.
You're now missing the important part of being a basi. Grabbing. One mistake from the human and he is grabbed and can't do a thing about it. I find that you have never seen a skilled basi, but have seen many skilled human players. What importance is that less damage if you're dying in one second compared to the basi behind you not receiving a hit? And by the way, dretch is the worst alien to attack a base with. Basis can RC jump and slow turrets by grabbing them.
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Lies.
Basilisk is better than useless in hands of an excellent player. There's nothing a 1.1 basilisk can do other aliens can't do better. It deals less damage than a dretch, is slower and easier to hit, is worst alien to attack a base with, has hard counters in the form of helmet and battlesuit.
You Obviously haven't played against a good Basilisk player.
Face someone like Dracone, with him as a Basilisk, you and you'll see how lethal they can be
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Uh? How does that helmet make basi worthless? It's still the same - get behind him and swipe swipe. Players with high mouse sensitivity are not able to shoot basis if the basi knows what to do, trust me. Wakey wakey borsuk, have you ever tried to kill a skilled stage two human with a dretch, and then compared it to killing him with a basi?
Helmet makes basilisks worthless because they're much weaker in frontal attacks than any other alien, and with helmets they will only face humans in fair combat. High mouse sensitivity apparently helps turn around faster, because some players are able to shoot me while I'm holding them from behind with basilisk. The fact that you have so much trouble understanding what my post makes me not want read your arguments, or what you believe are valid arguments rather than simple statements and anecdotal evidence. And no, I don't trust someone living inside my computer.
You're now missing the important part of being a basi. Grabbing. One mistake from the human and he is grabbed and can't do a thing about it. I find that you have never seen a skilled basi, but have seen many skilled human players.
You obviously are pulling statements out of your ass. I've seen very good basilisk players - yah for example. And I still prefer to face very good basilisk players than very good dretch players who are almost unhittable and pop up from nowhere, marauder players who don't miss a single headshot and don't notice turrets, or dragoon players who play their own game and destroy whole bases without support from other aliens. Very good basilisk players still get teamkilled a lot, because basilisk is the most teamkilled class, and still die by dozens when some newbie decides to spam luci.
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Here's an idea for human bases. (borrowed from Enemy Territory: Quake Wars)
Turrets (and possibly other structures, like armory, telenodes) get 300% HP. The catch ? They only work if their health is higher than 2/3. And they automatically repair to 2/3, much like alien defences.
Result - human structures are easy to disable, hard to destroy completely. Humans can turn around and not have their base completely destroyed by two goons. Dretches are allowed to deal damage to buildings once again. This way, smaller amount of humans would be able to defend base while the rest could be attacking.
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Aliens move faster than humans, so gen generally get behind them.
When grabbed rotation is limited however sensitive your mouse is. I think you are capped at 90 degrees, but that may be wrong.
And I've never seen anyone deliberate TK on the dev server, and FF is off now anyway, which leads me to conclude you're just talking about 1.1.
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Aliens move faster than humans, so gen generally get behind them.
Even two humans may be enough to make that impossible. If you grab one, the other will kill you.
And I've never seen anyone deliberate TK on the dev server, and FF is off now anyway, which leads me to conclude you're just talking about 1.1.
If I could play development 1.2 version, I would.
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Why can't you play it?
And yeah two humans will own a basi, but that why you pick your targets well :)
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Helmet makes basilisks worthless because they're much weaker in frontal attacks than any other alien, and with helmets they will only face humans in fair combat. High mouse sensitivity apparently helps turn around faster, because some players are able to shoot me while I'm holding them from behind with basilisk. The fact that you have so much trouble understanding what my post makes me not want read your arguments, or what you believe are valid arguments rather than simple statements and anecdotal evidence. And no, I don't trust someone living inside my computer.
In that case you have missed the point of being a basilisk totally. Frontal attacks? The point in playing basilisk is not to stay in front of the human, but get behind him. You know what that helmet does - it only delays your death by 2 seconds. About that high mouse sensitivity and you getting killed - it doesn't work like that. Maybe you're on his head, humans can shoot you from there. Go behind his back as I've told you. If you don't care about what I believe are valid arguments, why should I care yours?
You obviously are pulling statements out of your ass. I've seen very good basilisk players - yah for example. And I still prefer to face very good basilisk players than very good dretch players who are almost unhittable and pop up from nowhere, marauder players who don't miss a single headshot and don't notice turrets, or dragoon players who play their own game and destroy whole bases without support from other aliens. Very good basilisk players still get teamkilled a lot, because basilisk is the most teamkilled class, and still die by dozens when some newbie decides to spam luci.
My hobbies do not include pulling anything out of my ass. How about that one skilled basi that you get maybe one partial shotgun hit because of the cool dodging, grabs you from the testicles, moves around to your spine and kills you? Your argument #1 = basilisk is bad because you're teamkilled a lot. Your argument #2 = basilisk is bad because other aliens can be used effectively too. My advice is, #1 go play in a better server. #2, learn basilisk.
That's all,
Meisseli
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Actually even bad basis such as myself can take on a couple or few of average marines with upgraded weapons.
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--- snip ---
Lies.
Basilisk is better than useless in hands of an excellent player. There's nothing a 1.1 basilisk can do other aliens can't do better. It deals less damage than a dretch, is slower and easier to hit, is worst alien to attack a base with, has hard counters in the form of helmet and battlesuit.
You have never seen ExistentialRisk pwning hordes of enemies with his awesome basi. He could rack up 50 basi kills until S3 and totally demoralize the human team. And keep in mind: I am not talking about a noob human team.
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You have never seen ExistentialRisk pwning hordes of enemies with his awesome basi. He could rack up 50 basi kills until S3 and totally demoralize the human team. And keep in mind: I am not talking about a noob human team.
incidentally, he was the one who requested that basi jump height be increased to be able to jump on a battlesuit's head.
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Lol, yeah, he did those "swipe humans back, jump on head, swipe -> kill" things. Nasty bugin.
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When did he request this? I was under the impression he had completely abandoned Tremulous..
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when the changes were still being tested on trem.tjw.org.
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You have never seen ExistentialRisk pwning hordes of enemies with his awesome basi. He could rack up 50 basi kills until S3 and totally demoralize the human team. And keep in mind: I am not talking about a noob human team.
incidentally, he was the one who requested that basi jump height be increased to be able to jump on a battlesuit's head.
Do you mean Tremulous is being balanced for corner cases ? Why not just raise basilisk cost to 6 evos to keep obvious noobs like me from using it ? Surely pro players won't have a problem spending 6 evos on each basilisk.
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Pros who are pro at basi, are even more pro at goon. :P
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So I went on the development server to test out how it is.
I request that mark decon include telenodes as a high priority structure and that they be treated like the reactor, only individually.
In this picture, you see the original niveus base minus the reactor.
(http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss133/KingTutIII/shot0001-2.jpg)
In this picture, you see that I have moved the base to the staircase room with sufficiently adequate defenses.
(http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss133/KingTutIII/shot0000-3.jpg)
The problem is, the picture at the top was taken after I finished building the staircase base. Showing that nothing was deconstructed from the original base. I don't have a problem with the turrets or the armoury/medistation not being deconned immediately, but the remaining telenodes pose a problem. To get them out of the default base you would have to either:
- Build enough structures to use up all build points and consequently spam your new base with unneeded structures.
OR
- Shoot at the old structures with your blaster or such. This will most definitely attract attention to yourself and any alert alien will realize there is no rc and that you are live fodder. Consequently, you will not be able to shoot fast enough to destroy the old structures. You will be dead before that. On top of that, aliens will notice that you are trying to get rid of the telenodes and consequently camp them. Not a good thing.
So hopefully, you can see my point.
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The other argument is that more nodes = better. I would guess only do what you suggest for unpowered nodes.
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Actually, considering that you should be able to choose which node to spawn from, this isn't THAT bad.
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you can deconstruct unpowered buildings right now (as opposed to marking them).
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Then what's the point of mark in moving a base? You'll still need 2 builders. One to build the RC at the new base and the other to decon the nodes once the RC has been moved.
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- Add some kind of accessory (e.g. battery pack) like a MediKit or First Aid Kit that heals other players, or something like a syringe instead of weapon.
- Also, some kind of barrier needs to be added as a human constructable.
- Integrated helmet-like features in the battlesuite - shit costs 400 credits, needs more stuff other than more protection.
- A flying alien would also be cool
- For basilisk or marauder - spitting acid that acts like poison and distracts view but does more damage and lasts for a lesser amount of time
May sound pointless - just my 2 credits :P
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- Add some kind of accessory (e.g. battery pack) like a MediKit or First Aid Kit that heals other players, or something like a syringe instead of weapon.
- Also, some kind of barrier needs to be added as a human constructable.
- Integrated helmet-like features in the battlesuite - shit costs 400 credits, needs more stuff other than more protection.
- A flying alien would also be cool
- For basilisk or marauder - spitting acid that acts like poison and distracts view but does more damage and lasts for a lesser amount of time
May sound pointless - just my 2 credits :P
1.) i believe thats called a medkit
2.) Variety between the two teams is one of the drawing points of trem, i dont want them to be the same
3.) That completely undermines the point of a helmet. The beauty of each item is that it has its pros and cons.
4.) Open the sky project
5.) Basi gas?
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1.) i believe thats called a medkit
I think he wants something that heals other players not himself. EG the medigun in TF2 or the medkit in UrT.
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Trem 1.2 IS NOT TremX sir.
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So, about the games today...
The new dodge/sprint is really horrible. Usually you have your index, middle and ring finger in WASD keys, little finger in sprint and thumb in space. That's already 5 fingers used. Trying to use that dodge effectively is a pain if you don't happen to be a mutant. I liked the old dodge much more.
I'm kind of mixed with camper evos... It sort of feels useless being a dretch and humans camping at their base, since you can't do much damage. Well, you could do some damage but then again you'll harm the team more by feeding them. And dretch is so useless, boring class now, at least rifles can make ranged attacks but the dretch in s2 and s3... well, just a bunch of cannon fodder to maintain the human path to s5.
The new regeneration system - uhh... It only makes aliens camp behind corners more, build some bases there, maybe get few aliens even stuck as basi for a whole 30min game... I find that lot of the 1.1 greatness - the really fast gameplay just took a big hit there with alien mobility almost completely cut off. Battling in 1.1 was intensive, fast, reflexes, now it just feels like a lot slower. And I don't know about camp, it might be that camp might be even worse now that you can't get camp evos anymore.
I'll add more if I remember, I'll go eat now.
EDIT: Some improvements on human building though, moving to plant in Niveus in a clangame? That would've been impossible in 1.1.
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I think dodge worked surprisingly well without unlagged. In addition to my last big fat post, I'm going to add some things:
¤ Dretches are too weak - Still horribly useless.
¤ The basi's gas is boring for humans and extremely useful while executed with teamwork - How about removing the aim-distortion and make it exclusively slow them down?
<Saliva> gassing is bad because its not fun for humans
<Saliva> suddenly you can't aim at all anymore
<Saliva> its like being out of the game for the duration it lasts
¤ BP regeneration is too fast. It's not valuable enough to attack a base before SD.
¤ Repeaters can't power more than 20bp when you're moving, even if stuff is marked at the rc's power zone.
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A few things that come to mind for me are:
Aliens:
- The basilisks seemed a bit stretched having to a) stay alive to provide teammates with healing b)fight c) use gas for crowd control. The class seems torn between playing its own game(fighting) and risking losing the teams healing ability (and thus handicapping the team). Of course YMMV.
- Tyrants seemed weak considering its cost with them not being able to effectively attack bases because of turret damage and the general changes to its mobility. As it is I would probably not choose the tyrant for any task. It feels bulky and weird.
- Advanced goons seemed to be a bit too big to comfortably navigate the maps that already exist(granted, I do feel the same about 1.1 advanced goon).
- Teamwork is forced and I wonder how a public game will look where there are new players thrown into the mix. Will seasoned players be forced to play basilisk game after game after game (ad nauseam)
- Being stuck as a dretch is not very much fun beyond stage 1:>
Humans:
- I like the changes that promote forward building and in general the building system seems to work smoothly for a single builder. I would however like some sort of way for a human builder to get armour and a helmet without having to stop building.
- The strength of basilisk gas on a coordinated group should be tested more.
- Pulse rifle seems very strong.
General:
The lack of waiting money made dretch and builders annoying to play. Perhaps some sort of free armour and helmet that goes with the construction kit (that gets removed when you buy something else) would work? As for dretch I would like to see the reward for it boosted a bit as well as its usefulness. Or is it meant to be just a kamikaze poison pill that you throw at the other team in waves(that might get pretty frustrating for newbies).
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Oh and yeah I agree, basilisk just really is boring now. Being a jack-of-all-trades... You're supposed to not die since the team depends on you, you're supposed to heal, you're supposed to fart.. It's so much more boring than sneaking and grabbing a human.
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Im going to concentrate on what is in my opinion the biggest flaw in 1.2
The problem is the dretch in scrims. Its alright in public games where humans are disorganized and their aiming ability is poor but when skilled human players band together dretches don't stand a chance even in locations that benefits them. (the middle area in atcs for example)
Dretches aren't any better in 1.1 either but the difference is that aliens get camper evos. It means that you don't need to use the dretch and instead avoid the humans for camp evos and then evolve to something that has a good chance in killing them. Basilisk for example is at least 3 times better than a dretch because of the huge hp increase.
The problem is that dretches survival is based on evasion. The more skilled the human is at aiming the harder it is for the dretch to survive. On the other hand the worse the opposing human is at aiming the easier it is for the dretch. Its wrong that the effectiveness of the dretch depends so much on the opposing team. The effectiveness should depend mostly on the alien player.
The best solution to the problem would be that the dretch was powerful enough that there is no need for camper evos. The only way to balance it for both scrims and pub games would be to reduce its dependance on evasion. I suggest to increase its hp to 50 and increase its size by 50%. The values need thorough testing of course. That is the only way i can think of to make the dretch work while still keeping its flavor. Other solution would be to redo the dretch but im not sure anyone wants that.
Also dretches should be able to damage turrets because if your team has no evos you can do absolutely nothing to the human team if they are camping especially if they have s2-s3. If it makes rushes in the beginning too easy for aliens they could get the ability to damage turrets later in the game. Aliens could get adv. dretch s2 that could damage buildings for example.
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The new dodge/sprint is really horrible. Usually you have your index, middle and ring finger in WASD keys, little finger in sprint and thumb in space. That's already 5 fingers used. Trying to use that dodge effectively is a pain if you don't happen to be a mutant. I liked the old dodge much more.
the particular implementation isn't set in stone yet, if there's a way you think would be more intuitive or easier to use, don't keep it to yourself.
Also dretches should be able to damage turrets because if your team has no evos you can do absolutely nothing to the human team if they are camping especially if they have s2-s3. If it makes rushes in the beginning too easy for aliens they could get the ability to damage turrets later in the game. Aliens could get adv. dretch s2 that could damage buildings for example.
this was how things originally were, but it ended up being horribly imbalanced (dretches were easily capable of basically destroying an entire base).
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the particular implementation isn't set in stone yet, if there's a way you think would be more intuitive or easier to use, don't keep it to yourself.
Well, I don't think anything needs to be done to human dodging at all. Now, I have no idea how it works in unlagged, but in 1.1 on lagged you have plenty of tricks to choose. You can sidestep, jump over aliens, circle around them, bunnyhop to safety, crouch etc. It's a great part of the game, I love dodging as it is in 1.1.
But if you want the dodge, as I said in the game, maybe make some kind of toggle button for sprint, or perhaps have sprint on at all times (e.g. bind w "+forward;+sprint"). Or maybe execute it by double-tapping the WASD keys?
By the way someone pointed out the lack of camp evos in a funny way: in clangames or so, you could just win one game, and in the rest of the rounds not spawn as humans at all. Dretches can't destroy nodes and don't get camp evos == draw :)
this was how things originally were, but it ended up being horribly imbalanced (dretches were easily capable of basically destroying an entire base).
As to turrets, can't they just be placed well enough to protect from the dretches? I'd like to see dretch being able to kill turrets again too.
I don't like the idea of Saliva's 50hp dretch. Maybe increase it's headshot damage up a bit, to 70-ish? Or boost it's hit points by +5?
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By the way someone pointed out the lack of camp evos in a funny way: in clangames or so, you could just win one game, and in the rest of the rounds not spawn as humans at all. Dretches can't destroy nodes and don't get camp evos == draw Smiley
1.2 Normal grangers can attack structures :granger:
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This is kinda like the TremX adv dretch. It has 50hp and can attack all buildables.
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I don't like the idea of Saliva's 50hp dretch. Maybe increase it's headshot damage up a bit, to 70-ish? Or boost it's hit points by +5?
I know that the suggestion is a radical change and because of that hard to accept. Its the only way i can think of to improve the dretch for organized games but staying about as powerful in public games. If a low skill human player shoots it he will hit it more often because of bigger hitbox making it about as powerful as the old dretch. Skilled players are not able to kill the dretch as fast as before because of increased hp. So the change only affects skilled players.
Could the devs comment on this? I would really like to know what you think.
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Don't fix things that aren't broken.
If you don't like basilisks, you probably aren't with good them. Basilisks in 1.1 were good but it took above average skill. 1.2 basilisks are pretty good all around and insane in the right hands.
Don't balance the game around competition. Make a solid patch and let the clans modify it for comp. Anything else is developmental suicide.
Dretches, eh. Don't modify them with too much.
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- Tyrants seemed weak considering its cost with them not being able to effectively attack bases because of turret damage and the general changes to its mobility. As it is I would probably not choose the tyrant for any task. It feels bulky and weird.
Actually tyrant is extremely powerful, especially charge which allows you to kill arm+helm guy without using "hands". Also, even if rets are effective in killing rants, rants can take out at least one of them before they start shoot and another one before it dies. Note "at least". The only thing I would change in them is "players eye" position, it seems quite too high.
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I would not like to see the dretch personality of dodging changed. Revert camper evos if you have to, but please, no lisk-sized dretch. As for forced teamwork, I do not understand why an advanced player coudln't just build a forward booster and completely forget about lisk-heal. On smaller maps like UTCS, you may be able to do with the booster in your base. Also, I have found that when trying to support larger aliens as a lisk, I find myself left behind often, so people may not use the lisk even if a more experienced player were to try to lisk for his team all game.
I can see how the lisk-all-game thing could happen in scrims though. Perhaps the pros/cons of camper evos should be re-evaluated?
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the particular implementation isn't set in stone yet, if there's a way you think would be more intuitive or easier to use, don't keep it to yourself.
Well, I don't think anything needs to be done to human dodging at all. Now, I have no idea how it works in unlagged, but in 1.1 on lagged you have plenty of tricks to choose. You can sidestep, jump over aliens, circle around them, bunnyhop to safety, crouch etc. It's a great part of the game, I love dodging as it is in 1.1.
But if you want the dodge, as I said in the game, maybe make some kind of toggle button for sprint, or perhaps have sprint on at all times (e.g. bind w "+forward;+sprint"). Or maybe execute it by double-tapping the WASD keys?
you can already toggle it with some clever binds:
seta sprinton "+button8;set togglesprint vstr sprintoff"
seta sprintoff "-button8;set togglesprint vstr sprinton"
vstr sprintoff
bind <key> "vstr togglesprint"
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+button and -button do work now? Those where removed from q3 as a cheat prevention measure..
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+button and -button do work now? Those where removed from q3 as a cheat prevention measure..
no they weren't, the ability to bind to key releases was, but that's completely unrelated to this.
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Humans go out at S1, deathmatch as usual, don't attack alien buildings, then retreat
Aliens hardly attack human bases at stage 1 too. I see nothing wrong with this.
Aliens got +50 building points with no catches, right ?
Wrong: aliens' build queue timer is 50% higher than humans, so those extra 50 build points return slower than the first 100 (because of variable rate build point queuing). The bp queue happens to be broken right now though :x
Poison is too strong and annoying. I'd reduce it's damage to half and completely remove / drastically reduce the aim bumping. Those bumps are only annoying and doesn't make you aim worse at all.
I feel like it'd be too weak if it did any less damage. And I think in the majority of cases all it really does is make humans waste their medkit, which they often have to use after a fight anyway. I could maybe see reducing the time it lasts.
No basilisk healing aura for other aliens - It makes building forward eggs much less important. Before the stage2 booster I think the alien team is too strong with the fast healing. Also i don't think you should force a fighting class to be a boring medic. The basilisk would still benefit from it's faster healing though.
Would it be better to have a healing class that doesn't fight? I don't think they're "forced" to be just healers anyway - it's not like they have to do anything to heal teammates; teammates just have to get close to them. And between the grab and the gas they're already the best support class for aliens, so giving them the healing aura makes the most sense. And I really don't want to just remove teammate-healing altogether.
Dretches being able to damage buildings. I don't see how it would make things horribly unbalanced. With a properly built base the dretches will die quickly enough nonetheless. The argument that dretches could take a base down completely doesn't hold. If you build a base like that you deserve to lose.
The problem is that you have be certain that every structure you have is covered by turrets from every angle. I don't think humans deserve to lose just because a fast, tiny class with wallwalking can find a blind spot to kill the armoury from.
I think you could easily double it's repair rate to compensate for the previous idea without making it overpowered.
You could build two DCs. They're not really supposed to have an effect during attacks, they're meant to clean up the minor damage between attacks, so humans don't have to waste time repairing every little ding. I'll think about bumping it up a little though.
The massdriver could have 1 clip like the lasgun, but should overheat if you shoot it too frequently. It will constantly cool down if you don't fire however. If you manage to overheat it you should not be able to fire until it's completely cooled down. I think it could overheat after 7 shots or so. The idea of this change is mainly to remain the same effectiveness against aliens, but make it possible to shoot down structures with it.
It would also make the battery pack less vital for the mass driver. I like the idea of overheating in general, but I don't think I want to rebalance the mass driver for it now. We can increase the damage to 40 though.
Slightly smaller size and health for the Adv. Goon.
I don't really want to reduce the health, but I'll think about reducing the size a bit.
In the past the DC made turrets smarter and better. Does it still do that?
No, no effect on turrets at all.
There's no reason for Basi being able to disable the whole human team with a cunning gas, or being the best alien there is - due to regeneration.
Basi was a very great weapon with a skilled player before, no need to pump it's steroids way up.
Anyone skilled enough to be a useful basilisk in 1.1 could always be of considerably more worth to their team with a higher class. And I hardly think it's "the best alien there is" now.
Pounce damage is unchanged. What has changed is that light armour no longer gives as much protection against nonlocational damage as light armour + helmet. And headchomps still do significantly more damage than the pounce.
Wut? Since when human with armour and helmet was better than a regular dragoon or ADVANCED dragoon? :/
Huh? I didn't say humans with whatever is/was better than any alien class. In 1.1 nonlocational damage was basically bugged so that adding a helmet to light armour didn't add any protection, and light armour alone was disproportionately strong.
You have never seen ExistentialRisk pwning hordes of enemies with his awesome basi. He could rack up 50 basi kills until S3 and totally demoralize the human team. And keep in mind: I am not talking about a noob human team.
incidentally, he was the one who requested that basi jump height be increased to be able to jump on a battlesuit's head.
Do you mean Tremulous is being balanced for corner cases ? Why not just raise basilisk cost to 6 evos to keep obvious noobs like me from using it ? Surely pro players won't have a problem spending 6 evos on each basilisk.
Jumping on humans' heads as a basilisk isn't a corner case, it's... whatever the opposite of a corner case is.
...
So hopefully, you can see my point.
I thought of this recently myself actually and do consider it a problem (mostly from the standpoint of humans being able to build infinite working teles). I'm still thinking about the best way to deal with it.
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No basilisk healing aura for other aliens - It makes building forward eggs much less important. Before the stage2 booster I think the alien team is too strong with the fast healing. Also i don't think you should force a fighting class to be a boring medic. The basilisk would still benefit from it's faster healing though.
Would it be better to have a healing class that doesn't fight? I don't think they're "forced" to be just healers anyway - it's not like they have to do anything to heal teammates; teammates just have to get close to them. And between the grab and the gas they're already the best support class for aliens, so giving them the healing aura makes the most sense. And I really don't want to just remove teammate-healing altogether.
I think I expressed myself a bit clumsy - My primary reason for not allowing basilisks to heal is because it makes forward building way less vital for aliens.
With 140BP i think you can expect aliens to forward build at least an egg and a booster at stage 2.
Introducing the healing aura basically makes the whole "heal faster at creep" idea obsolete since you're very likely to have at least one basilisk when they're so valuable. And I really liked that idea :)
Secondary: (please emphasis that this isn't a real reason, and will of course never happen in a game with experienced players. However most games won't have the luxury of those experienced players) They're being forced medics since unless you really have to build a forward egg / booster, builders will rely on basilisks and be less likely to do so.
I also think the stage 1 basilisk is far better waiting around a corner providing quick regeneration for fighters instead of running out with it's pretty low health at 60hp and risk dieing, thus forcing the other aliens to retreat further back and lose control of the spot they fought in.
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¤ The basi's gas is boring for humans and extremely useful while executed with teamwork - How about removing the aim-distortion and make it exclusively slow them down?
<Saliva> gassing is bad because its not fun for humans
<Saliva> suddenly you can't aim at all anymore
<Saliva> its like being out of the game for the duration it lasts
That's kind of a good point. The reason I like the aim muddling is so basilisks have something to make it easier to close in for a grab (and also to cock up nasty mdrivers). Maybe we can cut how long it lasts to the repeat rate of gas (which I think would make it 1/4 its current duration).
¤ BP regeneration is too fast. It's not valuable enough to attack a base before SD.
Are you sure the bug (http://projects.mercenariesguild.net/issues/67) with the queuing wasn't still in place when you played last? I know it was last Saturday, but I just tried the latest build and couldn't get it, so hopefully tomorrow will be good. I'd be fine with making it slower anyway though.
¤ Repeaters can't power more than 20bp when you're moving, even if stuff is marked at the rc's power zone.
That's an interesting point: repeaters don't really work for moving an entire base anymore. I don't like the idea of mixing power supply between the reactor and repeaters though -- the whole thing is already uncomfortably complicated -- and considering that moving is easier now anyway because of repeaters, I'm inclined to just accept it.
I also think the stage 1 basilisk is far better waiting around a corner providing quick regeneration for fighters instead of running out with it's pretty low health at 60hp and risk dieing, thus forcing the other aliens to retreat further back and lose control of the spot they fought in.
That's true, but in that situation the basilisk is awesome at covering other aliens running away from humans after a base attack: goons/marauders rush in and hit the base, run away with low health, basilisk surprises chasing humans and at least disrupts humans enough for the teammates to get away, if it can't just kill the humans outright.
Tyrants seemed weak considering its cost with them not being able to effectively attack bases because of turret damage and the general changes to its mobility. As it is I would probably not choose the tyrant for any task. It feels bulky and weird.
I find the tyrant absolutely essential for draining humans of credits at stage 3. They don't have to be good at everything (we've kind of focused on the advanced goon and advanced marauder as base attackers).
I don't like the idea of Saliva's 50hp dretch. Maybe increase it's headshot damage up a bit, to 70-ish? Or boost it's hit points by +5?
I know that the suggestion is a radical change and because of that hard to accept. Its the only way i can think of to improve the dretch for organized games but staying about as powerful in public games. If a low skill human player shoots it he will hit it more often because of bigger hitbox making it about as powerful as the old dretch. Skilled players are not able to kill the dretch as fast as before because of increased hp. So the change only affects skilled players.
Could the devs comment on this? I would really like to know what you think.
We're not going to make the dretch a wimpy basilisk. The problem is that dretches can't dodge well enough, and if you're talking about radical changes, I've had something in mind for, uh, ever, that I never seriously thought was necessary...
(storytime)
I suppose by now there's probably not more than a handful of Tremulous players that also played Gloom, a Quake 2 mod. Tremulous came out of the Gloom community, and has major parallels with it (aliens versus humans, building from a pool of build points, kill things to get a better class). The equivalent of the dretch in Gloom was the hatchling: tiny, low damage, couldn't survive one hit from the human builder class. And every class was worth the same amount when killed. There was no wallwalking either, and just with bunnyhopping it wasn't faster than humans.
But it had a grapple.
It still sucked as a class, but you could basically warp around hallways unpredictably -- and by god you had to to survive long enough to get close to anything. I'm not saying I want to give the dretch a grapple (really, I was hoping to be done with significant gameplay changes, and to be honest I'd probably rather release 1.2 with the current dretch then spend extra time testing it), but if you're talking about giving it a skill-based way to dodge fire, that's the only way I can think of.
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Perhaps have the basilisk gas slow down a humans aiming as well as movement?
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Perhaps have the basilisk gas slow down a humans aiming as well as movement?
there's no way to do that that can't be scripted around.
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Humans go out at S1, deathmatch as usual, don't attack alien buildings, then retreat
Aliens hardly attack human bases at stage 1 too. I see nothing wrong with this.
This is incorrect, at least on servers I play. It is common for S1 aliens to attack human bases. Just watch what happens when aliens discover humans are moving reactor. Immediate alien swarm ! And because humans are so reliant on buildings, it can be quite hard to repel. Note that aliens almost always communicate the news (of RC being moved) to their teammates.
On the other hand, if aliens are moving OM, humans rarely bother to mention it, because it's so hard to capitalize on that. Aliens don't need (1.1) any specific buildings to heal, so a single dragoon can keep them in check. And if it comes to worst, they can be repelled with dretches even if it means a lot of feeding. A couple of humans in alien base = not so scary, can be defended against with some effort.
On many maps humans NEED to move base as soon as possible. Meanwhile even on maps with awful overmind placement like Tremor, competent alien team can defend the base and push humans back. It's not uncommon to see aliens win despite having no or bad builder. With good enough players, humans won't even reach such base.
Even when humans don't make any blunders and execute base move right, 2 good dragoons can mean the end of the base at S1.
(Note I'm talking mostly about 1.1, I would play 1.2 all the time if I could)
Poison is too strong and annoying. I'd reduce it's damage to half and completely remove / drastically reduce the aim bumping. Those bumps are only annoying and doesn't make you aim worse at all.
I feel like it'd be too weak if it did any less damage. And I think in the majority of cases all it really does is make humans waste their medkit, which they often have to use after a fight anyway. I could maybe see reducing the time it lasts.
While poison is thematically very fitting for aliens, damage-dealing poison is yet another force pushing humans back towards their base. Except for 96+poison hits, poison kills few marines, and it doesn't make those poisoned easier to kill.
How about making both poisons just slow down marines ? This way they wouldn't have to (couldn't, too...) retreat so much, especially when teammates around can support them. Slowdown from a single dretch might be overpowered, though. How about something different ? Screen flashes white and is completely obscured for 0.5 seconds if you're hit with poison.
No basilisk healing aura for other aliens - It makes building forward eggs much less important. Before the stage2 booster I think the alien team is too strong with the fast healing. Also i don't think you should force a fighting class to be a boring medic. The basilisk would still benefit from it's faster healing though.
Would it be better to have a healing class that doesn't fight? I don't think they're "forced" to be just healers anyway - it's not like they have to do anything to heal teammates; teammates just have to get close to them. And between the grab and the gas they're already the best support class for aliens, so giving them the healing aura makes the most sense. And I really don't want to just remove teammate-healing altogether.
You know my opinion. It would be better to give healing aura to a class which already doesn't fight, and avoids combat. And no, basilisks aren't strictly forced into healing, but that's what optimal play dictates. Just getting close to basilisk, which is small, fast and can be easy to lose track of, can be hard. You may pursue a basilisk only to see it dying on turrets. Combat basilisk are going to be very unreliable means of healing. They move erraticaly and die often. Wheter a particular basilisk can be a healer for you would depend primarily on that player's personality (how cautious he is) and experience with Tremulous. And it's very hard to judge at a glance, unless you know all basilisk players personally. With healing aura on basilisks, you're going to find out healing aura you benefit from moves, appears, disappears randomly with no predictable pattern.
As I said before, with buildings healing themselves and base defence often relying on strong players, grangers can have very little to do. They're very bored.
Dretches being able to damage buildings. I don't see how it would make things horribly unbalanced. With a properly built base the dretches will die quickly enough nonetheless. The argument that dretches could take a base down completely doesn't hold. If you build a base like that you deserve to lose.
The problem is that you have be certain that every structure you have is covered by turrets from every angle. I don't think humans deserve to lose just because a fast, tiny class with wallwalking can find a blind spot to kill the armoury from.
I agree - often humans are very strict about the way to build the base. Often they argue and insult each other over which design does or does not suck. Human bases are quite inflexible, and I don't think it's very fun to play when you have only very limited number of ways to put your buildings. I enjoy building alien bases much more. I know egg spam is not a positive effect and would like to see that disappear, but choosing from between tubes, trappers and hives is fun. You can spot human builders in alien team by the way they build - very conservatively and defensively, booster only at overmind or very close so aliens assaulting human base have to walk across the entire map to reach it.
I think you could easily double it's repair rate to compensate for the previous idea without making it overpowered.
You could build two DCs. They're not really supposed to have an effect during attacks, they're meant to clean up the minor damage between attacks, so humans don't have to waste time repairing every little ding. I'll think about bumping it up a little though.
Have you given some thought to the idea from Enemy Territory: Quake Wars ? Like in Wolfenstein:Enemy Territory players are usually incapacitated rather than dead when 'killed', and can be revived by a medic. ET:QW took that a step further and introduced 'revivable turrets'. All buildings have huge health, but stop working if health is below 2/3 max. This means buildings are easy to disable, but hard to destroy completely. It is more cost effective to disable three turrets rather than destroy 1 completely. ET:QW may have its flaws, but that particular idea is great. After attackers are repelled, buildings can often be repaired.
To this I would like to add: human buildings should automatically repair to certain percentage, for example 50% (so you still need to repair a bit, but a builder doesn't have to spend hours repairing everything).
But it had a grapple.
It still sucked as a class, but you could basically warp around hallways unpredictably -- and by god you had to to survive long enough to get close to anything. I'm not saying I want to give the dretch a grapple (really, I was hoping to be done with significant gameplay changes, and to be honest I'd probably rather release 1.2 with the current dretch then spend extra time testing it), but if you're talking about giving it a skill-based way to dodge fire, that's the only way I can think of.
Is there perhaps any way to make wallwalking better ? Changing map architecture is probably out of question, but some maps have simply awful walls and ceiling and they're not good for anything except hiding. Nexus6, Karith are terrible for that.
Wallwalking makes you predictable in a way - you can't afford to jump.
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if you're talking about giving it a skill-based way to dodge fire, that's the only way I can think of.
To make dodging more skill based the dretch needs a special ability. It could have the ability to pounce fast a short distance but the ability has a long cooldown so you can't just spam it. Then a skilled player could use it at a good time to avoid getting hit while an inexperienced player doesn't know when to use it and doesn't do as well because of it. It could also be used as an attack making predicting your opponent more important thus adding another skill factor.
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borsuk
You are hijacking this thread to make suggestions that belong on the Feedback forum.
I just want to say, if it hasn't been said lately, that I do really respect and appreciate the developers for continuing to make changes.
I like how the developers are addressing camping and its good.
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borsuk
You are hijacking this thread to make suggestions that belong on the Feedback forum.
Ok, I'll try to keep my posts here relevant to 1.2 playtesting. Just keep in mind there's a bit of overlap between new versions and new ideas. It's not always possible to separate.
[quote
I just want to say, if it hasn't been said lately, that I do really respect and appreciate the developers for continuing to make changes.
[/quote]
I wouldn't be here if there wasn't an opportunity for improving Tremulous. Norfenstein can be reasoned with.
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This is incorrect, at least on servers I play. It is common for S1 aliens to attack human bases. Just watch what happens when aliens discover humans are moving reactor. Immediate alien swarm !
Okay, I see what you're saying, but it's only really true when there's an opportunity to capitalize on some weakness in the human base. With aliens now being more reliant on their bases for health, and humans more able to move early on with repeaters, I think there's much less disparity between the teams in this regard -- and I don't think a disparity is necessarily bad anyway. And I often see players intentionally waiting for stage 2 to begin seriously attacking the enemy base.
Have you given some thought to the idea from Enemy Territory: Quake Wars ? Like in Wolfenstein:Enemy Territory players are usually incapacitated rather than dead when 'killed', and can be revived by a medic. ET:QW took that a step further and introduced 'revivable turrets'. All buildings have huge health, but stop working if health is below 2/3 max. This means buildings are easy to disable, but hard to destroy completely. It is more cost effective to disable three turrets rather than destroy 1 completely. ET:QW may have its flaws, but that particular idea is great. After attackers are repelled, buildings can often be repaired.
To this I would like to add: human buildings should automatically repair to certain percentage, for example 50% (so you still need to repair a bit, but a builder doesn't have to spend hours repairing everything).
I don't understand what this would accomplish besides making the build point queue irrelevant for humans, and base attacks even harder for tyrants. What's the difference between repairing a disabled turret and building a new one, besides having to stand around pointing at the disabled turret?
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Euro server game (edev.tremulous.net) in 20 minutes
Minor balance changes:
- Mass driver damage increased from 38 to 40
- Hive swarm speed reduced from 384 (sprint speed) to 320 (jogging speed)
- Dretch damage increased from 36 to 40
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you can already toggle it with some clever binds:
seta sprinton "+button8;set togglesprint vstr sprintoff"
seta sprintoff "-button8;set togglesprint vstr sprinton"
vstr sprintoff
bind <key> "vstr togglesprint"
Of course you can do it with scripts... but what does that solve? That every hundredth player can use dodge effectively?
Anyone skilled enough to be a useful basilisk in 1.1 could always be of considerably more worth to their team with a higher class. And I hardly think it's "the best alien there is" now.
That regen pretty much makes it the best alien there is. Of course booster and creep help counter this but I'd rather see no-regen basis.
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you can already toggle it with some clever binds:
seta sprinton "+button8;set togglesprint vstr sprintoff"
seta sprintoff "-button8;set togglesprint vstr sprinton"
vstr sprintoff
bind <key> "vstr togglesprint"
Of course you can do it with scripts... but what does that solve? That every hundredth player can use dodge effectively?
Anyone skilled enough to be a useful basilisk in 1.1 could always be of considerably more worth to their team with a higher class. And I hardly think it's "the best alien there is" now.
That regen pretty much makes it the best alien there is. Of course booster and creep help counter this but I'd rather see no-regen basis.
i've played with no regen basi, it was painful. if you took any hits at all from any human weapon, you had to retreat to the nearest booster immediately or you were dead. without the aura, basilisks have by far the lowest rate of regeneration relative to their max hp.
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I just played on the Dev server!
I like the way you can move around as dretch through human base!
but i don't like the new deconstruction thing its " iffy"
I also dont like how slow you heal as alein away from creep. :booster:
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We had some nice games yesterday (even if Cadynum kept pwning me >> ), I'd like to say gg :)
I was thinking, since we have holidays, if it's possible to have 2 Planned Dev games in a week. We could have bonus one in Wednesday. We could also make Saturday games only at US Dev server, and Wednesday at Eu Dev server (some people have to work and 19GMT is evening for most countries in EU). It'd be great boost for 1.2 Development (moar balance data) and people would have more fun in a week (1.2 IS funnier than 1.1 (bleh))
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(1.2 IS funnier than 1.1 (bleh))
Yeah. :\
I like some of the stuff that's been done, but I think they're overdoing it.
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well as far as models and HUD i love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I did have more fun on mgdev than on standard 1.1 public games. This could be for a number of reasons:
*If the MGdev changes make the game more fun generally, it would be more fun for me.
*If the game differs in any way from the game I've played thousands of times before, it would probably make the game fresh and challenging to adjust to, which would make it more fun for me.
*If your average player on MGdev is of a higher standard than 1.1 public games, it would probably make the game more interesting and so more fun for me. (Bear in mind that a team full of noobs can make a game far more challlenging but not necessarily more interesting).
I've a feeling all of these reasons played a part in it but mostly the last two. I don't yet know if the changes are better. I'd need to see how games with the same players on both 1.1 and 1.2 would compare. To this end it would be neat to hold some scrim-like games on each and now that I have the time on my hands I'd love to do so ASAP.
If you're interested in playing please let me know. It doesn't have to be clans playing against each other but it would be nice to hold clan matches too.
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Howdy,
Just like to step in and say any non 1.2-development-testing-server related feedback put in this thread will be promptly split off into the feedback forum. What's in here now stays, beyond that I'll be patrolling this thread with an iron fist from now on.
Re: Second weekly planned games - generally we like to have a dev in the games as much as possible to help get a feel for balance issues and to discover bugs. Unfortunately I don't think niether myself nor Norfenstien can commit any further time for this. However, if you guys express even a tad bit more support (in fact I'll start a second thread with a poll for this and link to it here in a moment) for a second planned game, just getting more feedback and stats would be totally worth it.
http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11336
Khalsa
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I also dont like how slow you heal as alein away from creep. :booster:
That's probably the best change of all the changes made since 1.0
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We've just started an unofficial game over on the euro server and we're hoping to get some clan-like games going asap.
Please if you read this don't hesitate to join. Any MGdev admin assistance would be appreciated.
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We've just started an unofficial game over on the euro server and we're hoping to get some clan-like games going asap.
Please if you read this don't hesitate to join. Any MGdev admin assistance would be appreciated.
IM GUNNA COME PWN YOU NAO!
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Many thanks to all who attended! The bitter rivalry between '/clan' and team '{Sux}' fueled the fires of a furious battle which climaxed in a somewhat serious bit of fun.
I personally hope to have more games like it and perhaps next time we could get some actual clans in to better compare the types of teamplay in MGdev and 1.1.
PS: Thanks again Khalsa for helping us out. Really appreciate it.
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Like Nux suggested more team vs team games with cooperating teams would give valuable data. The 1.2 PCW with Italians vs Scandinavians was fun but not necessarily accurate since many of the players were not familiar with the most current 1.2 gameplay changes nor did they have up-to-date configs. For future games where you are looking at the team vs team aspects it might be good to get a few teams together that do not change in order for them to adjust to the gameplay. For example dodge and sprint were not used to their full capacity since not everyone had changed their .cfg.
Another interesting thing to see would be how well the balance settings hold up with players that are less capable than the boys and girls you usually see on the development servers. I do not think there are many players there that have played less than 1 year or a few hundred games. Yet the majority of tremulous players would probably fall into this sort of casual gamer category. My point is how well will reduced regeneration for aliens really work with "normal" players who lack coordination? How frustrating will playing dretch be for the aforementioned normal players? Any ideas?
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The only thing is that "normal" players aren't as likely to enter a "development" server, particularly one running more maps than just ATCS amd even some nonstandard ones like nano or sector 17 (*gasp*). If we want newbies, how about setting the map (semi-permanently) to ATCS on one of the development servers?
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People never take me seriously when I suggest making them no-name servers :(
Also, if it's only ATCS then we won't get very good data :).
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The only thing is that "normal" players aren't as likely to enter a "development" server, particularly one running more maps than just ATCS amd even some nonstandard ones like nano or sector 17 (*gasp*). If we want newbies, how about setting the map (semi-permanently) to ATCS on one of the development servers?
Newbies should learn other maps beside atcs, just because you're a newbie doesn't mean you can't learn new maps.
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Exactly.
To Be Honest, when I was still really new, I actually Enjoyed other maps much more than ATCS. I just find it boring.
But Its definitely a good Idea to try and get some more normal games going IMHO
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Exactly.
To Be Honest, when I was still really new, I actually Enjoyed other maps much more than ATCS. I just find it boring.
But Its definitely a good Idea to try and get some more normal games going IMHO
Yeah, when i first started playing every server had map rotations and actually played custom maps ( :o ) now every server is atcs only, modified or unlimited BP. >:(
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I have an idea for new kind of playtesting game.
I have suspicions that S1 may be unbalanced in aliens' favour. In S1 aliens seem to have an upper hand, because dragoons can deal terrifying damage, humans don't have helmets or better weapons. This may lead to aliens reaching S2 faster. My suggestion - let's play some games that start in S2 and see if it affects balance in a meaningful way. It may be possible to isolate the issue.
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We're rounding people up again for a second day of gaming :D
This time it would be nice to get a real clan to face the gradually forming {Sux} clan.
Also we hope to use one of the US servers this time to be fair to all the Americans who were good enough to play with bigger pings last time.
Any admin assistance would be appreciated as always.
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I have an idea for new kind of playtesting game.
I have suspicions that S1 may be unbalanced in aliens' favour. In S1 aliens seem to have an upper hand, because dragoons can deal terrifying damage, humans don't have helmets or better weapons. This may lead to aliens reaching S2 faster. My suggestion - let's play some games that start in S2 and see if it affects balance in a meaningful way. It may be possible to isolate the issue.
Well It happens only when human team is unorganised. Most times its like: Humans kill about 10 dretches with few deaths, when aliens have dragoons and marauders the human team is already (or almost) on stage2, this is typical euro clan war scenario. Including unlagged THIS looks unbalanced.
That's why we should: Increase detches power and decrease basilisk and marauder power.
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Ummm Why?
Dretches already have plenty of power(Mind you, I haven't played on the dev serv lately, so I could be wrong) and it should be Goons, if anything that get a decrease in power. Maras and Lisks dont get used much anyways, and nerfing them would make them even less popular
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All aliens are fine, just nerf the rant or something.
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Dretchies doesn't have enough power comparing to rifle man. Dev server or normal 1.1 games - doesn't matter.
Goon range actually is a lot shorter but yeah, I don't like thing that it kills armored human with helmet with 2 chomps.
Adv.Mara need about 2 sec to kill human with arm/helm, also it has better jump (easy to stay on target and climb) and longer claw range.
Lisa gas can kill everything with good team (as you know, gas slows down hummans), also longer swipe, ability to health... should I say more?
//Damn I would like to post some demos to prove my rights but actually I don't have any. :s
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marauders have always had less range than goons, and still do.
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US Server game in 50 minutes.
Only balance change this weak:
- Dretch damage reduced from 40 to 36.
- Dretch repeat reduced from 700 to 500
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Dretchies doesn't have enough power comparing to rifle man. Dev server or normal 1.1 games - doesn't matter.
Dretches are over powered. in 1.1, not sure about 1.2. Dretches in 1.1 can nearly instantly kill an unarmoured human (no helm) and can, if skilled, can kill a Armoured or even Bsuit human. I've killed luci suits with dretches before. It all depends on the skill of both players. Newb Rifles vs Newb Dretches = Rifle wins. If both are skilled, dretch will usually win.
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Newb Rifles vs Newb Dretches = Rifle wins. If both are skilled, dretch will usually win.
Nah. It's the other way around.
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Newb Rifles vs Newb Dretches = Rifle wins. If both are skilled, dretch will usually win.
Nah. It's the other way around.
The fact that you two can argue about this, (and other situations I have seen) mean that either a.) the trem devs will have a hell of a time balancing, b.) they are both actually so evenly balanced already that there is no way to tell, c.) one of you is an idiot who should try to play some tremulous b4 posting, ROGL, d.) all of the above, or e.) other.
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I wouldn't call 1 assertion and 1 contradiction an argument but if you'd like more detail:
Noob rifleman vs Noob dretch
The rifleman can't aim consistently, wastes a full clip in one go not hitting much and has trouble keeping his distance from the dretch. The dretch moves in straight lines a lot of the time but has his handy in-built triggerbot to do the firing when he get's close enough.
My money's on the dretch.
Pro rifleman vs Pro dretch
The rifleman CAN aim consistently, conserves his ammo and is very good at staying at a safe distance. The dretch can move around in an unpredictable motion or ambush the human, aiming for the head when the opportunity arises.
Since the rifleman can keep that opportunity from arising fairly effectively and pick off the dretches from his safe distance, I'd go with the rifleman.
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Pedobear, your are totally wrong.
Nux explained that correctly. Shortly I would say:
Pro rifleman vs. Pro dretch - Rifleman wins. The only way to kill him is ambush, but if humans is enough "pro" he won't let the dretch ambush him.
Newbie rifleman vs. newbie dretch - Dretch usually wins. (Depends of unlagged)
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Some feedback from yesterday's 1.2 game:
- basilisk is not fun to play. I don't know what's the exact cause, but I tend to die quickly when exposed to combat. More than in 1.1 . I suppose it's a combination of unlagged, lower HP and improved luci/pulse. As soon as S3 starts, approaching humans feels like suicide. Basilisk may have max hp more often now, but less health hurts. 12 rifle rounds are enough to kill basi, and other popular weapons just got faster.
What new basi does well is portable booster (health regen). It is very fast if you somehow manage to get yourself close to a basilisk. For this I suggest two changes: 1) if you play a basilisk, teammates within range of your healing aura are highlighted like buildings marked for decon. Especially if they're currently regenerating health thanks to your aura. This change would make it much easier to tell if you're healing someone or not. 2) All alien players get a sound indicator when they're regenerating health within a range of some regen booster (creep, booster, basilisk). Ideally the sound should differ when regen is faster (for example faint humming, getting stronger or higher pitch when health regen is faster). This would draw attention to the fact you're benefiting from some regen booster. Current indicator is much too unconspicuous ! It's quite hard to notice. At the very least the cross should get a completely new color... but I prefer sound indicator. Because regeneration pretty much doesn't occur in combat, it wouldn't cause noise in combat.
One more issue: basilisk gas has nice weakening effect, but gas attack lasts a LOONG time. It certainly feels very long for a lifeform with 80 HP and limited movement. For these seconds gas completely stops you from dealing damage, and from getting evos. I think it would be nice if basilisk could breath gas in controlled burst, much like flamethrower. But it would have a "magazine", so basilisk couldn't breath longer than current duration. The difference would be basilisk gas attack would last UP TO current duration. Basilisk would be able to stop it earlier if there's no need to gas the entire squad. Another problem with basilisk gas is that no damage dealt means no evos. If you play a team friendly basilisk who tries to heal and gas enemies, you'll get very little evos and will often be stuck as dretch. With 1.2 partial evos, I find it much easier to evolve to higher lifeforms as dretch, much easier than with basilisk.
- marauder is much more fun to play. My preferred class in 1.2. Two attacks they have feel quite distinct. Claw has higher damage to a single target, while zap has higher range (great against psaw, good in vents), is good against bases, and is an excellent opportunity attack. If you manage to ambush a group of humans you can fry them all, IF you hit. But once humans spread a little claw is much better. It feels so good to hit 2-3 players with zap.
Jumping is deffinitely better, scaling walls is quite easy now. What I would really like to see is ability to bounce off ceilings, not just walls and floor. Typically when you hit a ceiling you're an easy target, because you start falling in a predictable way. Marauder is quite vulnerable in corridors.
- One of human turrets remains unchanged. I think it should be changed too, because it's one of last bastions of humans' campy tactics. I mean the one that needs a human to operate. The jetpacker.
Jetpacks are essentially turrets. They deal damage, they are hard to reach and barely move at all. They're nearly useless in offense. In Natural Selection jetpacks can only afford short bursts before they have to land to recharge. This makes them much better in attack. But this is Tremulous, not Natural Selection, and good design ideas are rejected if they're used in other games. So an alternate solution should be found.
One change hopefully won't be controversial - make the damn thing more quiet. Being stuck in a base with 3 or more jetpack turrets makes me take off my headphones, it's that painful.
- Speaking as a dretch, I like new human machinegun turrets. It's no longer a suicide to approach them.
- new adv. goons and marauders can really damage a base.
- no camper evos is a double edged sword. Perhaps camper credits should be returned, but work like Battle Sense in Enemy Territory games ? For the uninitated, you'd gain evos if you take damage AND survive for 30 seconds. This would have following benefits: a) discourages feeding, unless feeder actually deals some damage at which point he ceases to be a mere feeder b) jetpackers and cowards in general would gain very little from it. People leaving bases and surviving for a while would be rewarded. Builders would also have a way to get evos/credits - if they survive an attack and don't feed, they'd be rewarded.
To illustrate how problematic no camper credits can be once players' tactics and metagame adapt, consider this:
2 days ago I've seen a strange tactics deployed against my alien team on ATCS. Humans moved base early, but they moved reactor to... doors of the middle building. At S1. At this point it's very easy to shoot and repair from behind, it deals damage and blocks aliens from entering. Luckily for us they fumbled the move and we got the reactor before it fully materialized. And in 1.1, camper credits would cause aliens to get dragoons and marauders, and we'd take the reactor down. But consider what would happen if humans camp this way in 1.2 ? Because reactor blocks the entrance, no humans can leave and feed ! No matter how newbish. Aliens gain NO credits and are stuck as dretches. They can't damage RC, they are zapped by it, they are shot at, and I'm not sure the openings are even big enough to admit a dretch. Eventually, if aliens don't disconnect, humans temporarily decon RC. One or two of them spam the entrance with flamethrowers and bsuits while RC finishes. The rest attacks with superior equipment.
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Interesting insight on the jetpacker.
I wanted to say three things:
1. Construction kit + jetpack = very useful.
2. I think jetpacks should get a short burst of speed when first used and then slow down to the current speed. This way the jetpack can be used to avoid rants as they come near. (jet out of reach quickly)
3. My older brother (who also plays tremulous) had some ideas of how to nerf the jet. There could be a limited flight time, so that the jet must be recharged, or the jet could not operate outside of a certain range of repeaters (maybe three times the build range) and when the jet left this range (or when the rc went down) then he had a backup fuel cell that would run out after a couple seconds.
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I've seen limited time jetties already implemented... somewhere. (Anybody know?)
I've heard a few suggestions for changing the way jetties work. I'd appreciate seeing more of them implemented. If you do make the jet have an initial burst, you'd have to make sure they can't just quickly turn the pack off and do it over and over again. Perhaps having a boost while holding shift which drains stamina would be more effective (for realisms sake, jetting at all would require stamina).
Other suggestions I've heard involve making the jetpack more of a jump-booster which can't maintain flight but does throw you into the air.
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My point wasn't so much to nerf jetpack. I called it humans' third turret because it strenghtens human defence without providing any real offensive capability. It ties up human players. Human jetpackers are like turret humpers. To be a jetpacker means not to attack. I'd rather have jetpacks which can attack, this would be more interesting for both sides. For most part you ignore jetpackers, the only class able to take them down effectively is dragoon. Marauder might be a bit better now with better climbing, but it's situational.
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Jetpack should work like in Worms (2d worms not those 3d bullsith) - it's quite fast, you can only "fly up" with it, you can't just float in air, you can't stop falling just by turning it on, and it has limited ammo. You will be able to travel with it (for example to vents in karith), but shooting while flying will be almost impossible unless you have aimbot (another "+", easier to spot aimbotters :P ).
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I played yesterday, and I've really lost my animosity for some of the dev changes.
I still think the dretch is a bit too weak, but I can deal.
Building for humans is great fun now, but the slow-regen makes building confusing for everyone involved. It's almost like a battle to see who gets that 8 BP, the guy spamming turrets, or the guy who needs 2 more BP for another telenode? I can understand slow-regen for destroyed structures, but what about deconstructed ones? If your team didn't have the foresight or the time to mark your base before moving, have fun with waiting for a full base's BPs.
There was also an issue with structures randomly not being powered. A turret would be well inside the reactor's power, not be dead, and not built before the RC was moved there, but it didn't work. I had to decon it, and eventually get my BPs stolen by forward builders.
I don't get why everyone's complaining about basi so much. With the short-time gas, it's not terrible for humans, and you can even put up an offense against lucis.
If people don't want to be a healer as a basi, they don't have to. Your team is big and strong, they can make it to the creep.
It's not overly powerful though, and takes some skill to play.
The Rant and Goon movement attacks are a little powerful for my tastes, but that's how they should've been in the first place, not the jokes they are now.
Really, the changes on their own were pretty bad, but as a culmination, they're pretty fun.
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IMO the hud need to be improved to show how many BP there are to come, and how many are marked.
Also, basi's need to get something work working as a booster. Yesterday we had a 2v2 game, and I was running support for a goon+ most of the time. I was just healing / gassing etc so got nothing for it, forcing me to go dretching for kills every time I died.
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IMO the hud need to be improved to show how many BP there are to come, and how many are marked.
Also, basi's need to get something work working as a booster. Yesterday we had a 2v2 game, and I was running support for a goon+ most of the time. I was just healing / gassing etc so got nothing for it, forcing me to go dretching for kills every time I died.
I don't agree with the basi part, in public games its normally more than a 2v2 and you should be able to pick off evos now and then even if you are support, but if not the large amount of people can generally switch off who is supporting. And in smaller games(referencing mostly to clan matches) you don't want 3 basis constantly there because they get rewarded for just being there, thats an unfair advantage to the aliens in a small game. Basi shouldn't be cost effective because its intention is support not defense or attacking. Its almost like buying an extra medpack, and that medpack shouldn't earn credits, you should be earning credits from the extra health already. This is another reason why share is better than you like to assume it is. The goon+ getting more evos and living longer because of you should be handing down some profits your way.
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I'm not saying you should get evo's just for being there, but what about when the goon kills gassed/grabbed people? Maybe give a small amount (10%?) of that damage to the basi. And why not get (very slow) evo's for healing?
The basi is currently designed to be a support class, it makes big aliens massively more effective by healing them and screwing the enemy. Doing that helps the team alot, and is seemingly how it's meant to be played, so why not give the basi's something for doing what they are supposed to be doing? I guess the same argument goes for builders too :)
Also need to be able to see teammates health, or at least some vague indication of how hurt they are.
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I'm not saying you should get evo's just for being there, but what about when the goon kills gassed/grabbed people? Maybe give a small amount (10%?) of that damage to the basi. And why not get (very slow) evo's for healing?
The basi is currently designed to be a support class, it makes big aliens massively more effective by healing them and screwing the enemy. Doing that helps the team alot, and is seemingly how it's meant to be played, so why not give the basi's something for doing what they are supposed to be doing? I guess the same argument goes for builders too :)
Also need to be able to see teammates health, or at least some vague indication of how hurt they are.
just slash them a couple times...
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Slashing them doesn't always get you evos, you have to do enough damage and they have to have enough equipement that the evos can be split up.
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You sir should play at development server.
We have "partial evos" (means you can get 0.1, 0.9 etc. evo) nub :P
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Been a while since I've played there, but I don't remember seeing that feature.. Sounds pesky and annoying, partial evos is far more useless than partial credits, since everything cost a whole amount of evos, no items cost 2.5 evos like human weapons costing 150 ect.
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On the development server. Have fun, all!
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O RLY?
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Been a while since I've played there, but I don't remember seeing that feature.. Sounds pesky and annoying, partial evos is far more useless than partial credits, since everything cost a whole amount of evos, no items cost 2.5 evos like human weapons costing 150 ect.
Nothing costs half an evo, but guess what happens when you earn half an evo TWICE!!
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Been a while since I've played there, but I don't remember seeing that feature.. Sounds pesky and annoying, partial evos is far more useless than partial credits, since everything cost a whole amount of evos, no items cost 2.5 evos like human weapons costing 150 ect.
I thought the same thing at first, but in practice it works out OK, the benefits outweigh the problem of your first kill not getting you enough to evo.
And slashing is hard when I suck :)
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This.
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Been a while since I've played there, but I don't remember seeing that feature.. Sounds pesky and annoying, partial evos is far more useless than partial credits, since everything cost a whole amount of evos, no items cost 2.5 evos like human weapons costing 150 ect.
I thought the same thing at first, but in practice it works out OK, the benefits outweigh the problem of your first kill not getting you enough to evo.
And slashing is hard when I suck :)
I suck at slashing too.
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It's more about getting in position to use your slashes than the slashes themselves. :basilisk:
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I've seen limited time jetties already implemented... somewhere. (Anybody know?)
PornServer.
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I've seen limited time jetties already implemented... somewhere. (Anybody know?)
Tremwars/modwars, Slacker's QVM has that feature implemented.
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Partial evos are nice. Unfortunately, I'm not good enough to really play well against most of the people who get on MGDev (and I haven't really practised it at all), so it takes me forever to actually get a full evo. :P But I can still see it would be very handy.
As for the limited jetpack, I'd much rather have a (auto-recharging) jetpack that has something like a 1-2 minute charge when it's full.
Jettards could still ruin a large part of the game, but not nearly so easily. Feature pl0x.
I like most of the changes that are going to be in 1.2 (especially [tent]), I just haven't taken the time to get used to them. Mostly because it still has a very unfinished feel, but I imagine that will go away once it's actually released. Now hurry up and do so. >:(
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As for the limited jetpack, I'd much rather have a (auto-recharging) jetpack that has something like a 1-2 minute charge when it's full.
Jettards could still ruin a large part of the game, but not nearly so easily. Feature pl0x.
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It only takes 40 sec to empty the lasgun... so 1-2 min jetting would be too much imo. I like the idea of jet that accelerates only instead of moving at constant speed. It would be much faster for getting up somewhere, and time limit could be much lower (with recharge).
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If any of that had issues with the dretch didn't play last Saturday, please try it again next chance you get. I think lowering the repeat really makes a big difference. Yes, it's still weaker than 1.1 dretch (besides the fact that it moves faster), and in an idealized match between a perfect human player and a perfect dretch player the dretch will still never win, but if last Saturday's game was typical I think I'm satisfied enough with it.
[wall of text]
Yes, basilisk healing and regen in general should have better feedback.
Gas now only slows for a long time; the aim muddling only lasts as long as the gas's repeat.
What I would really like to see is ability to bounce off ceilings, not just walls and floor.
Interesting idea, but I don't think you'd always want to do that. If you were trying to climb a wall and bumped your head on any tiny greeble it'd push you down. And it'd make marauder launchers less feasible :(
But this is Tremulous, not Natural Selection, and good design ideas are rejected if they're used in other games.
the hell?
For the uninitated, you'd gain evos if you take damage AND survive for 30 seconds.
Sounds either highly abusable or awkwardly complicated. And besides, why would you necessarily deserve free funds if you survive for a length of time but not if you die? I think we've proven pretty definitively that free funds are not a deterrent to feeding.
Perhaps having a boost while holding shift which drains stamina would be more effective (for realisms sake, jetting at all would require stamina).
tjw actually wanted to do exactly that, but never got around to implementing it. Unfortunately -- whether you can believe this or not -- I'm really trying to wrap up gameplay changes so we can actually have some kind of release of 1.2. I think mucking around with the jetpack at this stage would be too big a change. Have to draw the line somewhere (in truth, if it hadn't been for some outstanding bugs I probably would have stopped fiddling with things weeks ago). I agree that the sound should be quieter.
Really, the changes on their own were pretty bad, but as a culmination, they're pretty fun.
Heh. Could you please share this insight when the inevitable avalanche of hate follows the release of 1.2? I'm considering ignoring the forums entirely for a month afterward because "first" impressions of a major change to something people already know well tend to be useless and hostile.
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1.2 is actually gonna be released?
Gasp.
But TBH, fixing something about the jets to make them less jettard-freindly, would be (almost) worth waiting for IMHO.
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Sounds either highly abusable or awkwardly complicated. And besides, why would you necessarily deserve free funds if you survive for a length of time but not if you die? I think we've proven pretty definitively that free funds are not a deterrent to feeding.
It works like this
Survive
Survive after taking or dealing damage
Survive after killing someone
Survive after taking damage and killing someone
The game checks your state every 45-90 seconds I think.
You get more experience based on the condition. After a certain amount of experience, the easier ways don't reward as much. It is actually the hardest form of experience to get and usually goes to people that really kick ass. Just a FYI
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wrap up gameplay changes so we can actually have some kind of release of 1.2.
Let it be finished when it is finished. If we can improve the jetpack, we should.
Also, please make tube damage go where the acid goes.
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One thing I really miss with the new marauder is the ability to bounce around on walls properly.
I don't know if it's related to that jump bug, and it probably doesn't affect balance in any big noticeable way.
However it just makes the new mara.. boring.
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Survive after taking damage and killing someone
That's your standard fight right there.
Survive after killing someone
Woot! Go you! Was the enemy AFK?
Survive after taking or dealing damage
WIMP! What you stop fighting for? Unless both of you are pulp shaped I want you to go back for a second helping.
Survive
What experience are they getting from JUST surviving? If they're a builder it's not exactly impressive that they weren't hurt.
Survive after dying
Now THAT'S impressive.
EDIT:
One thing I really miss with the new marauder is the ability to bounce around on walls properly.
I don't know if it's related to that jump bug, and it probably doesn't affect balance in any big noticeable way.
However it just makes the new mara.. boring.
QFT (http://ul.to/xakv1o)
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wrap up gameplay changes so we can actually have some kind of release of 1.2.
Let it be finished when it is finished.
Finished according to whom?
Also, please make tube damage go where the acid goes.
Could you elaborate on why you want that?
EDIT:
One thing I really miss with the new marauder is the ability to bounce around on walls properly.
I don't know if it's related to that jump bug, and it probably doesn't affect balance in any big noticeable way.
However it just makes the new mara.. boring.
QFT (http://ul.to/xakv1o)
Yea, while "properly" has no meaning, I would assume you're just missing the greater air speed. I do really want that bug fixed, but if I had to choose I'd personally I'd rather have the improved walljumping over faster movement.
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Also, please make tube damage go where the acid goes.
Could you elaborate on why you want that?
I'd assume his requesting the particle system for the acid be larger, so it actually looks like the acid is coming in contact with you when you take damage from the tube.
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I thought it would be neat to try it out. Noobs have trouble figuring out that acid tubes do perimiter damage.
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I thought he meant that roof-tubes should hurt people on the floor, like the anim suggests.
EG make the particles into projectiles that do the damage.
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Bingo.
Currently acid tubes do damage in a radius around themselves, and the acid effect falls to the floor.
I want to try making the tubes do damage based on where the acid goes.
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The acid spray is only a particle effect, which means that the locations of the acid blobs are different on each client.
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Well, I assume it goes in roughly the same direction on ever client, so have the server calculate it and use that on every client?
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It works like this
Survive
Survive after taking or dealing damage
Survive after killing someone
Survive after taking damage and killing someone
The game checks your state every 45-90 seconds I think.
You get more experience based on the condition. After a certain amount of experience, the easier ways don't reward as much. It is actually the hardest form of experience to get and usually goes to people that really kick ass. Just a FYI
...and I only mentioned "survive after taking damage", because other kinds could have no effect on gameplay (for example survive after killing - humans would be rewarded for sitting on turrets). They are good mechanics, but I don't think all of them fit Tremulous. I think "survive after taking damage" is strictly better than 1.1 "survive" camper evos which are still awarded for turret humping. The most "highly abusable" behaviour my proposal would encourage would be encouraing aliens to run up to turrets, take damage, retreat. And if coming out of hiding is bad...
Without something like camper evos, how are aliens going to deal with situation like in my previous post (Reactor in middle building door on ATCS at S1) ?
Norfenstein:
Are you aware of the reactor-firing-through-walls bug ? It's easy to notice on Nano map. It doesn't actually deal damage, but the zap going through walls looks silly. More importantly it betrays the position of reactor. I use default client from Debian repositories.
I agree that getting 1.2 out of door is more important than fixing jetpack right now. It will provide more feedback and many changes will just result in better gameplay. There are still not enough dodging players on development servers. And players complaining about changes are usually bad players - those who can't adapt, and don't like to be creative. Those who are happy with bad design, tell others to STFU, and initiate votes to kick newbie builders.
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The acid spray is only a particle effect, which means that the locations of the acid blobs are different on each client.
Which is why I said change it to projectiles.
I doubt it'd be all that easy in practice, I'm pretty sure it's doable.
The other option is to not touch the mechanics (which is probably never going to happen for 1.2 anyway) and instead "fix" the animation.
Make it so the blobs go in all directions instead of all going up, and explode after a short time, so the damage area is full of a cloud of exploding acid like flack etc.
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That would be nice, show the n00bs better where the dmg goes.
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particle spamming hurts your FPS, though. I think appropriate explanation in the manual and/or buildable infopane should suffice.
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particle spamming hurts your FPS, though. I think appropriate explanation in the manual and/or buildable infopane should suffice.
And how many n00bs read the manual?
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I still think all buildings should get big rings drawn around them when being built, so I guess that would help show the range a bit.
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Well, I assume it goes in roughly the same direction on ever client, so have the server calculate it and use that on every client?
that's probably not feasible due to the amount of bandwidth it would use.
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I'm sorry, I was unclear. I meant let every client calculate its own effect, but have the server calculate the damage area and pass that along to the clients.
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Well, I assume it goes in roughly the same direction on ever client, so have the server calculate it and use that on every client?
that's probably not feasible due to the amount of bandwidth it would use.
Surely you only need to share the random seed when it starts firing?
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it's the same thing as turrets firing, only a lot more of them. it also means clients can't use cg_bounceparticles 0 (since the projectile could bounce and hit them)
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one thing i would like to see.
Is a new damage graphic.
The current red, and green border thing just isnt stand out enough, and most of the time you dont know your taking damage. If you had the time to invest (which i daresay you do, seeing as you havent said a date for release) is to have a changing graphic, that is seen with most current fps's. Ya know, the red kind of vainy thing, which expands towards the middle of the screen the closer you are to death. Like in COD and similar fps's.
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(http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/954/toomuchq.png)
And this is why you read the manual. :D
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I want to try making the tubes do damage based on where the acid goes.
I understood that, I just wanted to hear a convincing argument. Unfortunately I don't consider us to currently be in a "neat-to-try-things-out" phase -- and I think it would be neat to try out! -- but we could be stuck making changing like that forever. I want to wrap up a release. Maybe somebody could make a particle effect that better reflects the damage area, as David suggested.
The most "highly abusable" behaviour my proposal would encourage would be encouraing aliens to run up to turrets, take damage, retreat.
Or: shoot aliens, jump off a ledge to take falling damage, repeat. But I hadn't even thought of aliens-on-turrets; that sounds extremely abusable. Suddenly milking turrets becomes a viable way get to frags? I'm averse to any complimentary funds system that can be gamed by altering how you'd normally play.
Without something like camper evos, how are aliens going to deal with situation like in my previous post
The situation you described is one in which the human team stops playing the game. Does that happen often enough to warrant changing the game around people that don't actually play? I know Tremulous has some fundamental flaws that let's things like this come up, but I'm not in favor of band-aid solutions that don't really solve the root problem.
However I realize that some things can't really be changed without making Tremulous an entirely different game, which (believe it or not) I've been trying not to do that. So I'm not completely opposed to having some kind of complimentary fund mechanism if we really need it, I'd just want it to be straightforward and stay out of the way. Like the old system but changed to not cancel your timer every time you die.
Are you aware of the reactor-firing-through-walls bug ?
Sounds like something for bugzilla (http://bugzilla.icculus.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Tremulous)...
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Norfenstein:
Enemy Territory has safeguards against things as obvious as that. You don't get Battle Sense xp if you took self-damage, falling damage, or damage from teammate.
Do I have to create an account to post on Bugzilla ?
By the way, about marauder ceiling bouncing - I agree it could be awkward at times. So how about putting it under 'crouch' key ? It would be intuitive, crouch key is unused for aliens too. Even better - rather than just having crouch key bounce from ceiling, make it bounce down key. Overall marauders would have two keys:
- jump/bounce up from walls
- bounce down from ceiling/walls
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What's your stance regarding new alien classes ? I have a couple of ideas, or rather variations of existing aliens. Yes I know it's not suitable for 1.2, but perhaps later. A sample idea:
Female Basilisk
S2, upgraded from regular basilisk. Basilisk can be upgraded either to adv. basilisk or female basilisk. Female basilisk doesn't have breath attack, but can lay eggs instead. If it gets a killing blow on human, it eats the human and can lay an egg. It would be a one-time spawn for alien team. First player to choose Basilisk from Dretch-Granger-Basilisk menu would spawn as basilisk for free. Basilisk egg would completely bypass spawn queue. Another advantage is that one alien player would effectively get +1 evo, and would spawn away from base. These advantages would ensure female basilisks are useful even in late game. Of course, the egg would be easy to destroy, something like 50 hp.
As for appearance, female basilisk would look just like regular basilisk, but with lipstick.
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You can never make a good implementation of battle-sense or any other system that rewards you credits for a certain playing style.
This is because you can never ever measure how much a player contributes to the team.
Any attempt is doomed to fail, be exploited and possibly make the game less fun.
It's a bit the same with the new score system, however it doesn't directly interact with the game so it doesn't matter too much.
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Maybe somebody could make a particle effect that better reflects the damage area, as David suggested.
Like a puff of acidic vapour? Not sure if this is the most dire case in need for changing. I maintain that those damn barricades need to better reflect what they're blocking.
(http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/6686/barricade.png)
The little splat is where I shot and hit the thing. [mgdev euro server]
Considering the fuss that was made about dretches hitboxes I'd have thought that the problem would be more significant with a building whose purpose is to block.
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For camper evo's: How about the old system, but only if you are poor?
That way newb's / builders get a bit of cash to get them going, but you still have to go get kills to get anything decent. Maybe cap it at 2/400?
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Do I have to create an account to post on Bugzilla ?
It would be best, but if you really don't want to you can write up the steps to reproduce it (in a private message) and I can submit it for you. If there's any chance you'll have more bugs to report I'd rather you did it yourself though.
... Overall marauders would have two keys:
- jump/bounce up from walls
- bounce down from ceiling/walls
It'd be simpler and more flexible to just have them bounce in the direction aimed. Kevlarman had wanted to try this (correct me if I'm wrong) but we never got around to doing it. At this point I'd rather not do it for 1.2 though.
What's your stance regarding new alien classes ?
My personal stance is I'd rather redesign Tremulous from the ground up than try to tack on new classes to the existing game.
This is because you can never ever measure how much a player contributes to the team.
Any attempt is doomed to fail, be exploited and possibly make the game less fun.
It's a bit the same with the new score system, however it doesn't directly interact with the game so it doesn't matter too much.
Exactly.
I maintain that those damn barricades need to better reflect what they're blocking.
The dretch change was simple. We can scale the barricade's model the same way, but it'll get very tall before it gets wide enough to cover the width of the hitbox. I wouldn't mind scaling it up a little bit, but it still wouldn't be totally accurate unless the model was changed.
For camper evo's: How about the old system, but only if you are poor?
That way newb's / builders get a bit of cash to get them going, but you still have to go get kills to get anything decent. Maybe cap it at 2/400?
I had the same thought actually, specifically so that human builders could get jetpacks at stage 2 without having to fight, but I'm slightly uncomfortable about having an arbitrary cap. One frag and the equivalent in human credits would have been fine for builders, but it wouldn't do much for aliens stuck with a human team that won't fight. Still not sure what to do about this.
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Would something like a timer for getting free armour work? Leave the free credits out of it all together and just get armour for free(cant be sold). Would maybe be based on stage and capped so you can not get battlesuits? That would mean you can only camp for a while and still get some use out of it and will not be stuck as a naked human forever. For aliens you could get a free evolve to basilisk? Based on how balanced it is you could adjust the timer for both teams to make it more fair.... You could make the timer stop when you die but that might encourage camping ( we do not want that) so it might work just as well to have a timer that does not stop.
Example:
Humans
s1 free light armour after 3 minutes
s2 free armour after 1 minute, free helmet after 4 minutes free jetpack after 5 minutes
s3 same as s2 but faster timer
Aliens
s1 free basilisk after 4 minutes
s2 free basilisk after 3 minutes
s3 free basilisk after 2 minutes free adv basilisk after 4 minutes
Times would need tweaking for balance which means loads more testing for dev team :P This was just one of my random brainfarts so take it with a grain of salt...
*Edit: alternatively you could make the free stuff based on class
- ckits get free armour, helmet, jetpack that will disappear when you sell off the ckit.
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I like, that last idea, maybe an S3 Adv Adv (Ckit/Granger) that comes with a ton more armour / maneuverability.
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ckit spawns with free helm/larmour in s3, which is removed when he sells the ckit. granger has 125 (100?) hp. seems a little better.
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Euro server game in half an hour.
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US server game in half an hour.
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Euro server game in 25 minutes.
Changes:
- Complimentary funds are back, with one change: the timer doesn't reset on death (only on earning funds). And the timespan is a cvar instead of hard-coded (default 2 minutes).
- Pulse rifle clip size reduced to 40 (60 with battpack), and max clips increased by one to compensate.
There was also a bug the past two weeks that made turrets and teslas fire too fast -- that's been fixed.
I'm done making significant gameplay changes. I believe the only thing that's really holding up the beta release is the bug that makes marauders slow and jump heights slightly lower than they should be.
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US server game in 8 minutes.
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Euro server game in 20 minutes.
No updates since last week, but we're getting close to hammering out the remaining bugs that're holding up the beta release.
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Just release it. >:( :(
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I must say.. I don't think the tyrant has been balanced enough compared to the human team's best weapon.
Tyrant's speed should be increased so that they can at least dodge a luci shot (given the proper skill level of/c; we don't want noobs dodging lucis like Neo (http://www.spawn.com/toys/movies/matrix1/neo/images/matrix1_neo_photo_01_dp.jpg)).
There are not enough opportunities for Tyrants to fall down onto humans and crush them, so I propose that a tyrant's jump while charging forward be higher thus giving him a chance to crush those in front. This also increases mobility for tyrants quite a bit and opens up new opportunities.
Disagree? Well, I admit I haven't played on the dev server in a while but from all of Norfenstein's posts, it doesn't look like he changed any of the Tyrant stats.
...do YOU (you reader, you) agree?
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No, on the contrary I think the tyrant is a bit overpowered. Trample in the hands of a skilled player can take out entire teams worth of humans in one go (+some luck needed).
Tyrants seems more than adequately equipped to country luci, and everything else. Just you have to change your playstyle to adapt to the changes.
Khalsa
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Thanks, but I'm not convinced. If you've got a demo, please don't hesitate to share it.
Plus, I heard that tyrants are supposed to be weak to headshots. Is this true?
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Thanks, but I'm not convinced. If you've got a demo, please don't hesitate to share it.
Plus, I heard that tyrants are supposed to be weak to headshots. Is this true?
I doubt a single demo would convince you or anyone.
Better join the dev games and try the balance for yourself.
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US server game in 25 minutes. EDIT: looks like 5 people on the server already.
Disagree? Well, I admit I haven't played on the dev server in a while but from all of Norfenstein's posts, it doesn't look like he changed any of the Tyrant stats.
...do YOU (you reader, you) agree?
Let's not have a philosophical discussion about something you can see for yourself. Playing every week, I usually feel relief when my team gets tyrants and feel safer fighting tyrants with a chainsuit rather than a lucisuit. Neither team has one "best" anything for every situation.
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Euro server game in 20 minutes.
Big important change today: the bug that was making marauders, dretches, goons, and everything else feel slower and jump slightly lower has been fixed! Movement feels a lot better now.
Also: advanced dragoon bounding box reduced 64x64x67 -> 58x58x66. This puts its increase from the regular goon in line with the advanced basilisk and marauder size increases.
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Yay!
Although Today I noticed 'rets seem to be a bit too nerfed, Because Marauders can get in, do some serious damage, and get out, easy as pie. It made more than one human base that I think should have otherwise held up(At least a bit longer) fall freakishly fast. Maybe reduce the spinup time a bit? or maybe make it so that 'rets don't keep resetting on a moving target(Is that supposed to be like that?)
Just a few pennies from my time today.
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Euro server game in 20 minutes.
Big important change today: the bug that was making marauders, dretches, goons, and everything else feel slower and jump slightly lower has been fixed! Movement feels a lot better now.
Also: advanced dragoon bounding box reduced 64x64x67 -> 58x58x66. This puts its increase from the regular goon in line with the advanced basilisk and marauder size increases.
And I started thinking my brain switched speed modes when playing mgdev, since no one from the official side seemed to feel the same way or confirmed it...
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Now just delete the dodge and increase the alien hp regeneration <3 [I know it will never happens but..)
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Dodge=Epic Win!
No Dodge=Sad Spork
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I'm done making significant gameplay changes. I believe the only thing that's really holding up the beta release is the bug that makes marauders slow and jump heights slightly lower than they should be.
Big important change today: the bug that was making marauders, dretches, goons, and everything else feel slower and jump slightly lower has been fixed! Movement feels a lot better now.
So we have a beta now ?
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Now just delete the dodge and increase the alien hp regeneration <3 [I know it will never happens but..)
Yes please to both. At least make dodge a cvar. It's maybe good in unlagged where you can't dodge at all but not in lagged.
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Yeah, just these 2 things and trem 1.2 will be succes on non-unlagged community. I think I agree to Meisseli tha biatch. :p
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You know you don't Have to have dodge right? Just rebind x to Sprint, not dodge. Easy as pie.
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You know you don't Have to have dodge right? Just rebind x to Sprint, not dodge. Easy as pie.
Yes I don't have to dodge so I'll use my serverside cvar to not let anyone dodge ;)
Dodging is fine as it is in lagged. It's fun, it's fun and it's challenging.
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People always complain how hard trem is for new people, so now you want to make every server have completely different gameplay? That'll make it so much better.
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People always complain how hard trem is for new people, so now you want to make every server have completely different gameplay? That'll make it so much better.
I have never said or complained how hard trem is for new people.
Unless you haven't played Trem ever you do know that every server has completely different gameplay. SD time, timelimit, share, build points, custom mods, player slots whatever...
As I've said: dodging works as-is in lagged. If it's a problem for unlagged why not, use dodge :)
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You know you don't Have to have dodge right? Just rebind x to Sprint, not dodge. Easy as pie.
I think you don't get it. We, europeans want to eleminate the one thing called "Fallback" means +back;boost. 1.2 Client doesn't allow to sprint backwards and thats really good change for us, but with the new dodge people can do almost extactly the same.
Please re-think your post.
People always complain how hard trem is for new people, so now you want to make every server have completely different gameplay? That'll make it so much better.
Tremulous may be hard for hardcore newbies, like trem is their first fpp - then its true. But when you've played other games like : ET, Q3, Ql, UrT than its not a big problem... There are MANY tutorials on this forum.
And making a cvar would would be a bit bad anyway - some people will use it, some not. Dodge is verry easy, means, you just push the right key and you are far from your enemy.
In europe we doesnt need any dodge to avoid ennemy attacks. Also normal strafing gives alot of aspects than just left+right.
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So you're saying, because you two who don't like dodge(Or running backwards? What the heck?) why not?
You're also saying that they should make it so each server can drastically change gameplay?
Now, Correct me if I'm wrong, But from my experiences, unlagged is what the majority of trem players use(With the exception of you euros, I dunno about y'all) and therefore, the 1.2 dodge is extremely useful. I don't really play lagged, so I dont know how well strafing works there, but I don't see why you can't allow people to use dodge?
And as for the newbie aspect, 9/10 new players I'm pretty sure have never played a similar game, so really, you're also asking to cater the game more towards the hardcore croud, and making it even less popular.
You guys aren'y making much sense.
Also, I haven't seen anyone else who says that either, but I have heard many who <3 the new dodge.
[/rant]
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So you're saying, because you two who don't like dodge(Or running backwards? What the heck?) why not?
Not only WE. Many, many players doesn't like the new dodge. I'm talking about good and experienced players and clans - Do I have to say wich ones agree with me? And about running backwards - Seems like alot players FALLBACK all the time on the map instead of STRAFING. That's pretty boring and causes alot of shitness on clan wars [Humans fallback hardly against dretches and anykind of, to your information: Humans win 80% of games in euroepan clan wars]
The point is, with the new dodge they will be still able to quick fallback even if +back;boost is forbidden in 1.2 client.
Now, Correct me if I'm wrong, But from my experiences, unlagged is what the majority of trem players use(With the exception of you euros, I dunno about y'all) and therefore, the 1.2 dodge is extremely useful. I don't really play lagged, so I don't know how well strafing works there, but I don't see why you can't allow people to use dodge?
Are you sure ? Europans plays mostly without unlagged. Aussies play without unlagged, Brazilians play without ul, there are even north ae servers without it. Look at other games, like quake - does somebody play with unlagged there? [Okay, its not about quake and I don't want to start another flame war]
Also, I haven't seen anyone else who says that either, but I have heard many who <3 the new dodge.
No offence, but the players who likes the new dodge plays with unlagged or are noobs.
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[Humans fallback hardly against dretches and anykind of, to your information: Humans win 80% of games in euroepan clan wars]
Only if you base yourself on eVo's ratio. ::)
I seriously doubt that 80% of Euro Clan Wars rounds are won by humans.
Anyway +1 for you, the new dodge sucks.
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People are always killing me with tyrants, and I suck with tyrants, ergo tyrants are broken and should be removed from the game to make me feel better about my ineptitude.
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Only if you base yourself on eVo's ratio.
Well its not only eVos ratio. :)
People are always killing me with tyrants, and I suck with tyrants, ergo tyrants are broken and should be removed from the game to make me feel better about my ineptitude.
HAHA GOOD ONE.
not.
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using dodge to run away is a waste of time, it's only barely faster than sprint on average, and it eats your stamina. you could just as easily sprint backwards and use a fraction of the stamina or strafejump backwards and go much faster.
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I'd like to point out that though Sayeru may sound like a noob (bad english Say <3) he most definately is not. He is concerned that the lagged community isn't being catered for and sadly it seems as though this is in fact the case.
'Lagged' gameplay has a lot more focus on prediction and dodging than unlagged gameplay does. I'll explain with handy dandy bulletpoints:
- With Unlagged, shots must be fired where the target was to hit (though on the dev server I think you shoot where they are)
- Without Unlagged, you must shoot where they will be. Hence prediction.
- Without Unlagged, you know that if an alien hits you from a max of x distance then all aliens can only hit from as far as x. This allows you to position yourself tactically relative to the enemy.
- With Unlagged, the distance you can get hit at is based entirely off the individual enemies ping. With a range of enemy pings, it's no longer possible to tactically position yourself like you can without unlagged.
Please note that when I say 'distance' I mean from your personal point of view as the artful dodger.
In my experience, unlagged gameplay is a lot more 'hit and run' than lagged. I believe that Sayerus problem with the new dodge is it works well with the flash-fights of unlagged but disrupts the longer sparring sessions of lagged.
I <3 lagged gameplay. Please don't forget it. :[
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So you're saying, because you two who don't like dodge(Or running backwards? What the heck?) why not?
You're also saying that they should make it so each server can drastically change gameplay?
Now, Correct me if I'm wrong, But from my experiences, unlagged is what the majority of trem players use(With the exception of you euros, I dunno about y'all) and therefore, the 1.2 dodge is extremely useful. I don't really play lagged, so I dont know how well strafing works there, but I don't see why you can't allow people to use dodge?
And as for the newbie aspect, 9/10 new players I'm pretty sure have never played a similar game, so really, you're also asking to cater the game more towards the hardcore croud, and making it even less popular.
You guys aren'y making much sense.
Also, I haven't seen anyone else who says that either, but I have heard many who <3 the new dodge.
[/rant]
!cvarfilter g_unlagged == 0
True: 67 servers
!cvarfilter g_unlagged >= 1
True: 56 servers
And that does not count the ones with no g_unlagged cvar at all (really old servers)
And I'm not banning you from using dodge. How does a game without dodge make trem less popular?
And yes each server can drastically change gameplay. Play with 999BP. Play with instabuild. Play with free evos. Play with SD 1 minute. Play with stage 1 only. Really how's that not drastic what people can already do?
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Because it's obvious, and it effects tactics, not skill.
The skills I learn on one server (movement, dodging, aiming etc) have to be transferable to all servers or very obviously marked, otherwise no new players will be able to improve at the game without going through the forums etc.
Moving hidden goalposts is IMO a sure fire way to make a game not-fun. Just because we can see the posts doesn't mean that the other 99% of people can. This is the same reason why I think unlagged should either be forced on, or have a BIG thing explaining exactly what it is and be listed on the server browser etc.
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Because it's obvious, and it effects tactics, not skill.
The skills I learn on one server (movement, dodging, aiming etc) have to be transferable to all servers or very obviously marked, otherwise no new players will be able to improve at the game without going through the forums etc.
Moving hidden goalposts is IMO a sure fire way to make a game not-fun. Just because we can see the posts doesn't mean that the other 99% of people can. This is the same reason why I think unlagged should either be forced on, or have a BIG thing explaining exactly what it is and be listed on the server browser etc.
The problem is: the new dodge might be useful in unlagged but it sure is not in lagged. A lot of players do play lagged, and I'm fine with Tremulous being balanced for unlagged, but making such a change for the unlagged problem only - is not good at all.
- Without Unlagged, you know that if an alien hits you from a max of x distance then all aliens can only hit from as far as x. This allows you to position yourself tactically relative to the enemy.
- With Unlagged, the distance you can get hit at is based entirely off the individual enemies ping. With a range of enemy pings, it's no longer possible to tactically position yourself like you can without unlagged.
This is the ultimate truth here. You can actually see where the alien is aiming with lagged instead of it chomping you with his ass. I don't like these kind of major changes being done to the unlagged community only.
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your arguments are invalid. 1.2's unlagged includes client side compensation as well. no more ass bites.
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And yes each server can drastically change gameplay. Play with 999BP. Play with instabuild. Play with free evos. Play with SD 1 minute. Play with stage 1 only. Really how's that not drastic what people can already do?
Follow your thought: should we make every aspect of the gameplay that anyone takes issue with a server setting? Half the things you mentioned aren't possible without mods. If servers want to remove a feature they already have the means to do so.
He is concerned that the lagged community isn't being catered for and sadly it seems as though this is in fact the case.
No one is being "catered for". We set unlagged on the development servers because otherwise it would be unplayable for enough of the players that regularly showed up for games. Playing games with us -- even if you don't feel like the conditions are perfect -- is and always will be the best way to influence Trem's direction.
When we release the beta we will have several official servers that the client will sticky at the top of the server browser. Probably half of them will have unlagged on and half of them will have it off. The beta period is when we will generate enough statistics to make sure the game is properly balanced, and it's not going to be done exclusively with unlagged. And I promise I'll play on lagged servers as much as I can.
In europe we doesnt need any dodge to avoid ennemy attacks.
Not to single you out in particular on this Sayeru, but can we please knock off the "us versus you" crap? Where you're from or who you are really has absolutely nothing to do with the way you play the game. Which servers you frequent might, and so saying "euro players" might be a shorthand, but I think the distinction is worth making if you're interested in having a productive discussion.
So we have a beta now ?
It's up to Timbo and benmachine now I think. Timbo has to merge the last changes in MGDev with mainline Tremulous (nothing big, so it shouldn't be long) and benmachine said he had a few more bugs he wanted to fix before the release (blame me for thinking we were all clear after the slowness bug, but I don't think he'll take very long anyway).
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No one is being "catered for". We set unlagged on the development servers because otherwise it would be unplayable for enough of the players that regularly showed up for games. Playing games with us -- even if you don't feel like the conditions are perfect -- is and always will be the best way to influence Trem's direction.
When we release the beta we will have several official servers that the client will sticky at the top of the server browser. Probably half of them will have unlagged on and half of them will have it off. The beta period is when we will generate enough statistics to make sure the game is properly balanced, and it's not going to be done exclusively with unlagged. And I promise I'll play on lagged servers as much as I can.
Thanks for the reassurance. :]
Also I'd like to see friendly fire tested in the development. I know you personally don't like it norf but there are many who prefer it on.
Edit: I just tried to confirm that ff was still off (not sure what ff 4/ ff 7 means in serverstatus.. final fantasy humour?) and I couldn't connect twice (to shoot myself) because the guid was already in use. The neat part is it tells the connected one that his guid isn't secure. :D
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ff is a bitfield, but I have no idea what the different bits mean :s
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your arguments are invalid. 1.2's unlagged includes client side compensation as well. no more ass bites.
That makes my argument more valid. I assume that means in 1.2 unlagged you can dodge too without the new "ninja move", when you can see where the goon is actually aiming at.
Follow your thought: should we make every aspect of the gameplay that anyone takes issue with a server setting? Half the things you mentioned aren't possible without mods. If servers want to remove a feature they already have the means to do so.
When we release the beta we will have several official servers that the client will sticky at the top of the server browser. Probably half of them will have unlagged on and half of them will have it off. The beta period is when we will generate enough statistics to make sure the game is properly balanced, and it's not going to be done exclusively with unlagged. And I promise I'll play on lagged servers as much as I can.
All the things I said are possible without mods.
But that's not the point. I'm just concerned that this dodge change seems to be made for unlagged only, to solve their problem. It's not helping the other ones at all, making it unnecessarily complex, Unreal Tournament, not fun, not challenging. You can already dodge so well without. The new dodge is for an Instagib game.
Agreed that the compromise server-side cvar sucks, I'd rather have the dodge completely cut out :)
Glad to hear of the bolded text.
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And yes each server can drastically change gameplay. Play with 999BP. Play with instabuild. Play with free evos. Play with SD 1 minute. Play with stage 1 only. Really how's that not drastic what people can already do?
All the things I said are possible without mods.
How do you do instabuild, stage 1 only, and free evos without a mod?
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And yes each server can drastically change gameplay. Play with 999BP. Play with instabuild. Play with free evos. Play with SD 1 minute. Play with stage 1 only. Really how's that not drastic what people can already do?
All the things I said are possible without mods.
How do you do instabuild, stage 1 only, and free evos without a mod?
g_instantbuild 1
mess up with g_stagethresholds
devmap and /give funds 2000
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g_instantbuild is a mod.
g_stagethresholds is a mod.
dev map is by definition not standard gameplay.
Don't you think the fact that you don't even know what tremulous is means it's gone too far?
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g_instantbuild is a mod.
g_stagethresholds is a mod.
dev map is by definition not standard gameplay.
Don't you think the fact that you don't even know what tremulous is means it's gone too far?
g_humanStage2Threshold is even in the wiki, doubt it's a mod. It's just a cvar.
If not g_instantbuild just use that /devmap then.
999BP is by definition not standard gameplay. You can still put it on with server-side cvars.
And this is completely off topic :)
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I was looking for a g_stagethresholds cvar >_>
And devmap doesn't have insta-build without a mod.
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All the things I said are possible without mods.
I wasn't counting servers with cheats turned on. Are there servers with cheats turned on?
I'm just concerned that this dodge change seems to be made for unlagged only, to solve their problem. It's not helping the other ones at all, making it unnecessarily complex, Unreal Tournament, not fun, not challenging. You can already dodge so well without. The new dodge is for an Instagib game.
This is a difference of opinion. I did not want dodge added to solve any particular problem; I wanted it added because I think it does make the game more fun. Unlagged had zero to do with it. And I really believe this controversy is blown wildly out of proportion. My experience has been: unlagged marginally favors attackers, lagged marginally favors evaders. Maybe after seeing the beta stats and playing without unlagged a lot I'll feel it's appropriate to modify some numbers here and there, but I guarantee it's not going to make we want to remove or add major gameplay features.
Also I'd like to see friendly fire tested in the development. I know you personally don't like it norf but there are many who prefer it on.
Yea, friendly fire is probably the second most controversial server setting. The thing is I'm not sure it's actually possible to properly balance the game for it being either on or off, and I do think balancing for it off is the better way to go. I could be persuaded. The dev servers have it off for players but on for structures.
Sudden death is probably the third most controversial server setting, but we're not going to be balancing for that. I consider a sudden death game to be a tie game, since sudden death was never meant to be anything other than a more satisfactory way to end a long game than just abruptly stopping at the time limit.
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Yea, friendly fire is probably the second most controversial server setting. The thing is I'm not sure it's actually possible to properly balance the game for it being either on or off, and I do think balancing for it off is the better way to go. I could be persuaded. The dev servers have it off for players but on for structures.
A possible solution would be to halve any damage taken by entities of the same team.
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This is a difference of opinion. I did not want dodge added to solve any particular problem; I wanted it added because I think it does make the game more fun. Unlagged had zero to do with it. And I really believe this controversy is blown wildly out of proportion. My experience has been: unlagged marginally favors attackers, lagged marginally favors evaders. Maybe after seeing the beta stats and playing without unlagged a lot I'll feel it's appropriate to modify some numbers here and there, but I guarantee it's not going to make we want to remove or add major gameplay features.
Yeah. And in others' opinion it's destroying the fun. Though I wouldn't use the word marginally. Lagged favours dodging, unlagged favours crouching or just dying for others to finish.
And all friendly fire should be on please :) Realism and a lot less luci/pulse/etc spam. Halving the damage is not good IMO.
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Yeah. And in others' opinion it's destroying the fun. Though I wouldn't use the word marginally. Lagged favours dodging, unlagged favours crouching or just dying for others to finish.
And all friendly fire should be on please :) Realism and a lot less luci/pulse/etc spam. Halving the damage is not good IMO.
Ok, that's enough. Please stop speaking for unlagged when you obviously cannot play it very well. Unlagged does NOT favour crouching at all - in fact, most crouchers are killed very easily. It is completely possible to dodge in unlagged (effectively) - just stop using the same dodges you use in lagged! Be creative! You also DO need to use prediction in unlagged - against good dodgers, that is. That's all I'll say about that, since this has been debated many times. I'm just tired of some people who obviously can't play unlagged very well making general statements about it.
About the features: unfortunately, I also don't like the new dodge feature so far, but I'm willing to try it for some time longer, since I haven't really thought of all its applications. I think movement was fine in 1.1 - it didn't need this much tweaking. However, I don't think even 20 games is enough to make a final judgment on it, so that's all I'll say about that.
HOWEVER, I really think the dragoon's pounce is very overpowered, as it is now. 3 pounces to kill an s2 human with that much knockback -- too strong. I rarely chomp anymore because of this (though if I can chomp, I do, since that's faster). In 1.1, a great s2 human had a pretty decent chance of killing a good dragoon; in 1.2, an s2 human has a pretty small chance of killing one (by himself). Although I understand that this change might have been made in the interest of fostering teamplay, I still have one gripe: in 1.1, it was possible to have both good teamplay and good solo-play (as humans); in 1.2, it's harder to have good solo play, at least for s2 humans against good pouncers. I suppose this is where the new dodge comes into play; like I said, I'd have to play 1.2 more in order to make a better judgment, but these are my initial impressions.
I also don't see the point in making the tyrant's charge that strong while making it much harder to slash, but I guess if more people than not find that change enjoyable, I can't complain.
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Ok, that's enough. Please stop speaking for unlagged when you obviously cannot play it very well. Unlagged does NOT favour crouching at all - in fact, most crouchers are killed very easily. It is completely possible to dodge in unlagged (effectively) - just stop using the same dodges you use in lagged! Be creative! You also DO need to use prediction in unlagged - against good dodgers, that is. That's all I'll say about that, since this has been debated many times. I'm just tired of some people who obviously can't play unlagged very well making general statements about it.
*putting his hand up* I can quite confidently say I can play very well with and without unlagged. That isn't to say playing well gives you a perfect understanding of the situation. Most of the fast reactions are habitual and subconscious afterall. That said, using more of your twitch reflex gives the rest of your brain more of a chance to analyse the situation.
When I first started playing on US unlagged servers it felt like I was aiming directly at the enemy. It's only now that it's become so automatic that I can actually watch myself aim where the target WAS, rather than where it is. If you've only ever played on unlagged you might not even know you're doing this. So 'lagged' does require a lot more immediate prediction with aiming as you have to fire your shots where the target will be next (lag dependant).
Other kinds of prediction occur with and without unlagged. For example, if ever I'm about to enter a group of enemies, I automatically start making plans (usually for the next second or two) on how best to control/kill the enemy. This will usually involve either making a route to the next few kills or else baiting the group in a direction which makes them more vulnerable to attack (either for me or my team). Note that these 'plans' are merely habits that work and use very little higher brain function. I'll also add that these bursts of plan-making are very enjoyable when they succeed.
When it comes to dodging, I will admit that I think my dodge may have improved thanks to playing with unlagged, mainly because I've had to start making plans earlier than before. Still, the ability to dodge reliably in lagged makes plan-making more interesting and I believe this enables much more aggressive gameplay on the whole than unlagged allows.
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Yea, friendly fire is probably the second most controversial server setting. The thing is I'm not sure it's actually possible to properly balance the game for it being either on or off, and I do think balancing for it off is the better way to go. I could be persuaded. The dev servers have it off for players but on for structures.
A possible solution would be to halve any damage taken by entities of the same team.
What is that a solution to exactly?
EDIT: Oh, you mean balance for the midway point. Hmm...
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Ok, that's enough. Please stop speaking for unlagged when you obviously cannot play it very well. Unlagged does NOT favour crouching at all - in fact, most crouchers are killed very easily. It is completely possible to dodge in unlagged (effectively) - just stop using the same dodges you use in lagged! Be creative! You also DO need to use prediction in unlagged - against good dodgers, that is. That's all I'll say about that, since this has been debated many times. I'm just tired of some people who obviously can't play unlagged very well making general statements about it.
Might be true what you say to some extent, but I've seen so many US scrims where people do not even bother dodging at all. They just crouch and stand where they are :) Anyways - what Nux said is true. Dodging is not reliable at all in unlagged at least. Unless you're supercool and can count the exact milliseconds the goon's range increases.
Or then run backwards :)
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Might be true what you say to some extent, but I've seen so many US scrims where people do not even bother dodging at all. They just crouch and stand where they are :) Anyways - what Nux said is true. Dodging is not reliable at all in unlagged at least. Unless you're supercool and can count the exact milliseconds the goon's range increases.
Or then run backwards :)
Ok, exactly how many scrims have you watched? Cuz in my Experiences, its usually Humans get into a formation, crouching, and when the goon(s) attack they surround/dodge and basically swarm them. If they just crouch they get owned. Horribly.
And I've found Dodge Quite helpful and reliable.
And what is you have against people running away from a fight they know they cant win? When I do that its like the old saying: "He Who Fights and runs away, Lives to Fight another day." Usually, cuz I don't want to give the aliens a new stage or I'm low on creds, and cant afford to die.
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I believe that when you are a good enough player, Unlagged or lagged servers make hardly any difference in how you play the game. Movement is key to humans for staying alive. Only fools would crouch in battles. People think that Dragoon pounces will go right over them but it is not so. The range is not that short. Plus, you have a better chance of dodging out of the way than of staying still.
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I believe that when you are a good enough player, Unlagged or lagged servers make hardly any difference in how you play the game. Movement is key to humans for staying alive. Only fools would crouch in battles. People think that Dragoon pounces will go right over them but it is not so. The range is not that short. Plus, you have a better chance of dodging out of the way than of staying still.
I think you're wrong. A good player can adjust to whatever settings he or she is required to play with.
Crouching is by the way very useful in normal 1.1 against goon head chomps.
I haven't played that much with unlagged, but I've played enough to draw the conclusion that I prefer it to be off.
Addition: The first sentence was for the "unlagged is noob"-crowd.
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I believe that when you are a good enough player, Unlagged or lagged servers make hardly any difference in how you play the game.
A good player can adjust to whatever settings he or she is required to play with.
SAME THING? Geez.
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I believe that when you are a good enough player, Unlagged or lagged servers make hardly any difference in how you play the game.
A good player can adjust to whatever settings he or she is required to play with.
SAME THING? Geez.
I read a lot of posts and somewhat responded to them while quoting you. That's why i added the last line :)
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=D
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If you crouch/stand still in unlagged against my +goon, expect to be sniped. And crouching helm+armor + barb = dead human. Dodging does make a difference in unlagged.
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We've had discussions about Unlagged before. I don't even care anymore. Either you can play or you can't. Blaming it on the technical details is just making excuses.
I don't think Dodge adds anything. Its just a new button to make noobs feel like they are doing something special.
Crouching isn't all that. I've been killing crouching humans with all kinds of aliens lately. Crouching is more of a trick and once people catch on it, it doesn't work anymore.
But as for sprinting, sprinting backwards was, is, and will always be lame as hell. It doesn't make sense and contributes to cheap victories.
But on my final note, cause this hurts me personally, the whole repeaters providing their bp is just so good but so wrong at the same time. For any good strategic game, there has be to a conseqence for gaining or losing ground. This works well for humans with the repeater+bp idea. But what about aliens?
Let both species build something outside their base. Give it limited bp. BUT allow it to confer some advantage to the side that makes it. It can generate credits or evos, it could heal, it could contribute to stage advancement, take your pick. But make a consequence for losing ground. Just giving humans repeater and bp just going to piss off hard working aliens. Basilisks aren't enough and are a passive benefit. Make the game have a strategic element in taking the map. It would give the game a seek and destroy element with people making their limit structures all over the place and the other team trying to find it.
The whole repeater+bp just feels like a betrayal because the devs say no to everything. I never thought the devs would consider mobile bases. Also, I've been very vocal about how 1.2 isn't going to mean anything if camping remains viable in the game. The slow bp regen is a good feature but an easy response would be to camp harder. The mini base feature is great if it is backed up with a more tangible benefit for both sides. But otherwise, its giving humans more positions to camp from rather than encourage them to move forward. The problem isn't getting humans out of the base, its getting humans to attack alien bases.
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Today's a US server game (starting at about... right now). There won't be any more changes for a while; Timbo is making good progress on merging the MGDev changes with trunk, but it could still be several weeks. I'm unfortunately somewhere where I can't play at the moment (or even get on IRC).
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Let both species build something outside their base. Give it limited bp. BUT allow it to confer some advantage to the side that makes it. It can generate credits or evos, it could heal, it could contribute to stage advancement, take your pick. But make a consequence for losing ground.
Building forward does confer advantages, and they're almost exactly the things you listed. A forward egg/booster/medistation gives health, defensive structures make it easier to get funds (which contribute to stage advancement), and putting pressure on the enemey means they can't as easily attack your main base. And there are consequences for losing ground: you lose the advantages you had, and without the forward base keeping the enemy occupied your main base is weaker because build point queuing prevents you from getting defenses back up immediately.
The slow bp regen is a good feature but an easy response would be to camp harder.
How does "camping harder" help when you have fewer defensive structures protecting you and your spawns?
The whole repeater+bp just feels like a betrayal because the devs say no to everything. I never thought the devs would consider mobile bases. Also, I've been very vocal about how 1.2 isn't going to mean anything if camping remains viable in the game.
I read through your posts from the past twelve months. You made some suggestions to address camping (remove luci/tyrant, make ammo cost credits, bouncing barbs), but I didn't see anything that could justify taking personal offense at any of the changes that have been made.
You've also said:
Personally, I wouldn't bother with 1.2. IMO, it adds very little constructively, introduces a lot of undesirable effects, and ultimately is a drain on everyone's patience. I would mod 1.1 Tremulous on to a newer engine and give this thing a whole new kick around the internet consciousness.
I think the sum of all the changes works well together. It feels different but not worse.
I like how the developers are addressing camping and its good.
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Building forward does confer advantages, and they're almost exactly the things you listed. A forward egg/booster/medistation gives health, defensive structures make it easier to get funds (which contribute to stage advancement), and putting pressure on the enemey means they can't as easily attack your main base. And there are consequences for losing ground: you lose the advantages you had, and without the forward base keeping the enemy occupied your main base is weaker because build point queuing prevents you from getting defenses back up immediately.
The advantages don't mean anything if people just camp. That is the heart of the matter. You could have the om directly outside the human base. If the enemy never leave, what's the point? That's why the controlling team should get a bonus. So they can speed up the closure of the game.
Its like boxing and leaning against the ropes. The opponent swings, you lean on the rope, and eventually your opponent will tire themselves out. But the difference is there is no score card in Tremulous to decide a victor when time is up or ref to penalize the exploiting player.
Having a booster or medi outside their base doesn't change the fact that one team has to risk/waste their upgrades beating against a base while the other team accumulates wealth. That's why the external structures should restore credits or evos. Otherwise, once you get done wasting your credits/evos attacking (while the other camps), it will be easier for them to destroy the external stuff.
I really want to support this game. I really respect what you guys do, truly. But over the years, I thought that nothing was ever going to change. Now I see changes happening and they are really close to solving the real gameplay changes. But....you won't go all the way.
I think rants and luci's ruin game. I think stage 3 completely kills the fun once players realize the metagame of 'camp and killwhore'. But I don't bother arguing about that because I figured that would never change. I wasn't excited for 1.2 because I believed that major changes weren't going to happen. However, the whole external base thing is a great idea and made me a believer again. But it will be just another way to camp if it doesn't actively contribute to a team winning.
People say you can't stop camping. But you can punish it or at least empower those who don't. I'll leave this alone for now.
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External bases don't need to give you creds, as they allow you to attack and survive.
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I understand what you're saying Temple. Let's break it down. The dynamic in Tremulous is:
- Both teams start out even and fight in the middle, maybe picking at each others' bases.
- One team gains an advantage in funds.
- The advantaged team attacks the enemy base and either wins the game or exhausts themselves, giving the other team the advantage or making them both equal again.
- Repeat.
There is no "camping" in that cycle; when the disadvantaged team is being attacked they are defending. Where it breaks down is when the team that has the advantage refuses to use it and acts defensively instead of aggressively. That's camping. So the problem isn't necessarily attackers not being rewarded -- they should already have the upper hand if they're in a position to attack -- the problem is that defenders don't lose their advantage when they don't use it. Complimentary funds is meant to relieve that, but I agree it's not perfect.
Build point queuing does help too:
You could have the om directly outside the human base. If the enemy never leave, what's the point?
That's a bad example. Camping works because the defensive team has a safe platform from which to attack. By building forward you can have a safe platform too, except yours is disposable. It's okay to lose your forward egg+booster because your OM and other eggs are on the other side of the map; it's not okay for the human team to lose any of their structures because they're all contributing to not losing the game.
The game shouldn't be about who attacks first or who get a forward base up first. There has to be a back and forth. You definitely have a valid point about Tremulous being a more defensive game than would be ideal, but I don't think that can really change without fundamentally altering the game, which I never considered to be part of my mandate in directing 1.2 changes (believe it or not). But I think the changes we have made, when taken together, improve the dynamic enough to be worthwhile.
If, after playing the beta a lot, you still don't agree, wait for 1.2.1 with a domination gamemode*, which is probably exactly what you really want.
*Not actually promising anything, but I'd like to see it.
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The game shouldn't be about who attacks first or who get a forward base up first. There has to be a back and forth. You definitely have a valid point about Tremulous being a more defensive game than would be ideal, but I don't think that can really change without fundamentally altering the game, which I never considered to be part of my mandate in directing 1.2 changes (believe it or not). But I think the changes we have made, when taken together, improve the dynamic enough to be worthwhile.
If, after playing the beta a lot, you still don't agree, wait for 1.2.1 with a domination gamemode*, which is probably exactly what you really want.
*Not actually promising anything, but I'd like to see it.
Well its never going to be a back and forth if there isn't a reason to leave your base.
People have done the whole external base thing. Play on any server with more than 100 BP. I've done it on SST more times I can count. People just get better at camping instead of getting better at rushing.
There has to be a consequence for camping. Starcraft has exhaustible resources that force you to seek expansions. Dawn of War 2 has victory points that force you advance. Any good strategy game forces players to win battles and push forward.
Like I've said, I respect what you guys are doing. Just recognize that the current features makes Tremulous a really good team deathmatch game instead a good team strategy game.
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!shuffleteams.... though this would mean that there's a record of the kill rates of each player. Maybe not.
The reason I say this is often teams will stack with all the good, experienced players on one team. This will force the other team into defense mode.Yes, this happens too when the humans are stacked and the aliens are forced on the back foot. I know this because I will also be part of the stack on occasions.
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You definitely have a valid point about Tremulous being a more defensive game than would be ideal, but I don't think that can really change without fundamentally altering the game, which I never considered to be part of my mandate in directing 1.2 changes (believe it or not).
Still, the ability to dodge reliably in lagged makes plan-making more interesting and I believe this enables much more aggressive gameplay on the whole than unlagged allows.
People say they don't like how 'easy' it is to dodge without unlagged yet it sounds like the more aggressive gameplay of 'lagged' is just what you're looking for. Come to a euro-public server; You might still see campers (it takes a certain degree of laziness, but yes they're in europe too), but players are more likely to go out and fight when they aren't as easily hit.
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...(nothing big, so it shouldn't be long) ...
LIES!! :P
Thursday?
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Thursday?
Maybe! It's kind of out of my hands now. Let's play on edev.tremulous.net today though, in half an hour.
I made a list of gameplay changes made since 1.1: http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11859.0
It's likely I missed a thing or two. Please ask any specific questions you might have in that thread, but know that nothing's up for debate anymore until the beta has been out for a while and generated statistically useable data.
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Dev game today? Just for fun? :D
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Yep, why not.
US server, 1 hour 45 minutes from now. Or earlier if people show up to play (ping me in #tremulous if anyone wants to start early).
EDIT: People playing now
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Good games going now.
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Okay, it's obvious by now the release has been delayed a little longer than we'd originally hoped for. There were a handful of remaining bugs we wanted to resolve, but as of this weekend I'm saying nothing more is going to be done in the MGDev branch. Timbo has a few more revisions to catch up to and then we'll be back on track.
In the meantime, why not play some games today? Euro server, in 15 minutes.
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We have a little more work to do before releasing the beta, but this morning marked an important milestone: Timbo finished migrating all of the changes from the MGDev repository into mainline Tremulous SVN. There were a little over 500 patches to commit, and doing the whole lot at once took about 2 hours.
Test-game-for-fun on the US server (dev.tremulous.net) in 30 minutes.
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Finally.
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Gud game. Apart from the problems with SD building, things work correctly, it just takes time to get used to everything.
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Yeah, we should have won! Damn bugs. (pun intended.)
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I have to say that 1.2 without unlagged is clearly unplayable for Humans. The very powerful alien movement attacks are only marginally more difficult, while the much-buffeted humans shall find it very difficult to hit their adversaries.
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I have to say that 1.2 without unlagged is clearly unplayable for Humans. The very powerful alien movement attacks are only marginally more difficult, while the much-buffeted humans shall find it very difficult to hit their adversaries.
I have to say that I think you are wrong. Humans now win much more often than in 1.1. Aliens have been nerfed. ::) ::) ::)
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I have to say that 1.2 without unlagged is clearly unplayable for Humans. The very powerful alien movement attacks are only marginally more difficult, while the much-buffeted humans shall find it very difficult to hit their adversaries.
I have to say that I think you are wrong. Humans now win much more often than in 1.1. Aliens have been nerfed. ::) ::) ::)
too much.
but 1.2 beta? i call hax.
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Euro server game in 30 minutes.
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Anyone playing the US server today? I'm on 10 minutes before 2pm CST and no one's on..
Couple people connected and disconnected.. I'm leaving the server :(
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Euro server game in 30 minutes.
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Yup, I was there. Great fun! Much more comfortable playing the humans now in 1.2 than ever (used to be a heavy alien player but have been shifting to H). Overall I like the game very much. There's a few things I'm not sure if I like or not, but I'll have to play more and get more of an overall feel to it first. Very much like the changed alien heal rate & basi-porta-healer.. it was just too damn easy to hit and run in 1.1. Humans *seem* stronger than aliens but not sure - have to play more. Great work devs and thanks to everyone who's been developing/managing/testing so far, Tremulous has been one of my favorite games for a while now and I look forward to years of great 1.2 games. :dretch:
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To put out an argument, aliens weren't mobile enough, and this is coming from a human perspective! If you've got a decent dance, or hell, if you've got two other dude with rifles, and you chase a goon, it's dead. That simple. Two chains and a pulse take out a rant in a few seconds flat. It's far too easy to run down aliens, especially if you're being extremely aggressive. Anything smaller than a +mara doesn't mind aggressiveness too much because they're dead anyway. Goons and up just can't deal with it. Now, with the lack of mobility and the need to return to base to heal, they might as well be a group of jettard psawers vs adv goons. In the dev server, you have serious players who love and want to improve the game. You probably get a lot of teamwork (I haven't played too many games there). On a pub server, it's impossible to coordinate humans. You can't get a group together. Only dedicated players with leadership skills will work together. You really think you'll get someone who wants to be a basilisk for the aliens? A mobile booster? Probably, definitely, most likely not.
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A Mobile Booster? :basilisk:
I'd tap that. ::)
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US server game in 55 minutes. I can't make it to the games today, but there've been a few changes since last week.
- increased goon repeat 700 -> 900
- increased advanced goon repeat 600 -> 800
- increased goon (both) pounce charge time 700 -> 900
- increased tyrant repeat 750 -> 800
- decreased hive health 175 -> 125
- swapped prices of flamer and prifle
I doubt there'll be any more balance tweaks before the beta is released.
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I swear i'm gonna blow a load once beta releases.:granger:
Keep up with the good work, balance is definitely one thing Tremulous is great at keeping, unlike other prettier albeit ugly gameplay games *cough* Halo *cough*
Guys, I have -3 turrets with only 1 thread and 1 reply. But you know what, it doesn't hurt mah feelingz, I'm too pro for rets! ya dats rite, my skillz are greater than BodyOrgan and Yarou combined! :tyrant:
Maybe I should keep my annoying comments in Trem games? :> *slaps himself silly*
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increased goon (both) pounce charge time 700 -> 900
This makes the goon feel a lot slower and more sluggish.
Instead of making the goon less fun to use, can't the damage inflicted on the opponent be reduced if you feel the goon is unbalanced?
(I agree that pounce was too easy to use as an attack)
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It was too easy to attack with, but I also felt like advanced goons had too easy a time escaping from fights, now that they take less damage due to a smaller bounding box. I've only played a handful of small games with the change so far, so it's not set in stone yet.
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Are you fucking serious, Norf? You think that sizing down the bb by a few units is going to do much good for anything bigger than a dretch?
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I actually playtest these changes, so yes, I have noticed it makes a difference.
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It was too easy to attack with, but I also felt like advanced goons had too easy a time escaping from fights, now that they take less damage due to a smaller bounding box. I've only played a handful of small games with the change so far, so it's not set in stone yet.
Another approach might be to simply lower the adv's health slightly.
I just personally prefer when my goon moves around swiftly.
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I actually playtest these changes, so yes, I have noticed it makes a difference.
You've neglected to realize how many times I've been on your development server on the 1.1 client testing things when there isn't one of your bullshit, biased "planned development games" going on.
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besides all the cussing your right!
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You've neglected to realize how many times I've been on your development server on the 1.1 client testing things when there isn't one of your bullshit, biased "planned development games" going on.
I didn't say anything about you, I said I noticed the reduced bounding box does make a difference. I wasn't sure it was going to when I reduced it, even though it made a big difference with the dretch and the marauder.
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I didn't say anything about you, I said I noticed the reduced bounding box does make a difference. I wasn't sure it was going to when I reduced it, even though it made a big difference with the dretch and the marauder.
Seemed bitchy. My apologies. You do play more than I do, you've probably noticed the difference.
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It was too easy to attack with, but I also felt like advanced goons had too easy a time escaping from fights, now that they take less damage due to a smaller bounding box. I've only played a handful of small games with the change so far, so it's not set in stone yet.
Goons already get put out of the fight low enough, don't leave them there to be screwed. (Aka. they need to at least be able to partly flee, they lose hp so fast now with turrets.)
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Are you fucking serious, Norf? You think that sizing down the bb by a few units is going to do much good for anything bigger than a dretch?
You do realize that for every unit lowered, that's not just one unit, that's one unit^3, meaning in cubic millimeters (millimeters I hope? o,O lol)
So for every unit that the bb is lowered, the aliens get another cubic millimeter advantage, that can mean a mara battle with bsuit, before results: 50hp (normal bb)
After results: 75hp (new, smaller bb).
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It's not units^3, and it doesn't matter what real world units you compare them to. What matters is the change of size of how big it looks on screen which is about 21 % smaller if viewed from side, 22 % from below (for mara, ~16-15 % for +mara, 11-18 % for +goon).
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It's not units^3, and it doesn't matter what real world units you compare them to. What matters is the change of size of how big it looks on screen which is about 21 % smaller if viewed from side, 22 % from below (for mara, ~16-15 % for +mara, 11-18 % for +goon).
Tremulous is 3d, aside from the HUD, what other measurement for an alien's volume would there be? I might be wrong in millimeters, but I wasn't saying the exact change Norf made, just an example of how it could effect an outcome of a battle. So explain to me how it isn't unit^3, when the Tremulous game itself has 3 Dimensions, so you explain to me what units they'd use. Check for yourself, do they have measurements in percentage, or in an actual real-world measurement. Oh wait, you need a unit in order to use %, since % means out of the unit you're comparing it to. Like if I have 2 apples, and I eat one, I have 50% of the apples I had originally.I apologize for my low tolerance today. I'm dealing with issues, and like I usually do I vent out on people who trigger me. :-\
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What matters is the cross-sectional area that you're shooting at. How deep the target is is (mostly) irrelevant to me shooting at it.
And everything is measured in "game units" which have no real-world equivalent.
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What matters is the cross-sectional area that you're shooting at. How deep the target is is (mostly) irrelevant to me shooting at it.
And everything is measured in "game units" which have no real-world equivalent.
Based on rough measurements and estimates, we can rough out real-world equivalents that make logical sense to us, but you're right, Tremulous was not designed with these equivalents in mind.
HellzAngelz, it's a percentage of the units. We have units. Game units. That's all we need. The mara is a certain percentage smaller now than it was before. Your anger clouds your logic. Work on that.
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Plague, you said yourself it wouldn't change anything for any other alien other than a dretch. I explained how it would change, and now you're basically telling me I never tried to counter your reply about norf making the bb smaller. So perhaps your inability to use your fucking brain and actually read what I said is clouding YOUR logic. Only type shit if you can back it up. Don't even reply back, i'm done yelling at your ugly face
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[Insert "internet drama" image here]
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Plague, you said yourself it wouldn't change anything for any other alien other than a dretch. I explained how it would change, and now you're basically telling me I never tried to counter your reply about norf making the bb smaller. So perhaps your inability to use your fucking brain and actually read what I said is clouding YOUR logic. Only type shit if you can back it up. Don't even reply back, i'm done yelling at your ugly face
Wow, Hells, don't be a douchebag, and call me Bringer if you must shorten my name so you don't confuse Plague and I.
Now, to be quite frank with you, not only are you overreacting, but you're sadly mistaken. You said in the post that I quoted last that we could not compare the current bboxes with the old bboxes using a percent. Re read what you fucking wrote. We HAVE units to measure with. And why the hell are you calculating volume? As David said, normally, you don't think of shooting into the other side of the alien; only the side that you can see. A cross section. What UniqPheoniX said, in this case, is perfectly valid. Certain bboxes are certain percents smaller from certain sides, which is what you're thinking of. You're aiming for a 10x10 box, not a 10x10x10 cube.
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That message was not on the forums when I replied. It may have been that you posted it before I posted mine, since I was doing it discreetly in class. I apologize for my actions, but I haven't the energy to explain shit right now. I have someone I need to look after
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That message was not on the forums when I replied. It may have been that you posted it before I posted mine, since I was doing it discreetly in class. I apologize for my actions, but I haven't the energy to explain shit right now. I have someone I need to look after
[off]To be fair, you quoted one of the posts I'm referencing, and I'm quoting the other. :)
Don't get expelled.[/off]
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Also keep in mind that 20 % smaller bbox does NOT equal 20 % less damage in most cases, it does not make your opponent automatically hit 20 % less.
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Also keep in mind that 20 % smaller bbox does NOT equal 20 % less damage in most cases, it does not make your opponent automatically hit 20 % less.
This is, of course, because we aim at the center of the bbox (AHEM, CROSS SECTION), which (barring the vertical) does not change. It will result in having to readjust our lead if we, say, would hit the rear end of a Marauder that's moving left, because now the rear end is 20% closer to the middle, but that's trivial and easy to do. It WILL, however, affect weapons with spread (coughchainguncough).
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It'll also effect those of us who suck at aiming :)
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Well it's been three weeks since the development branch was merged, and we've had a flurry of improvements made to trunk in that time (over 130 commits to SVN). We currently have two beta servers set up, and the few games we've had on them with the 1.2 client this past week have gone well, but we want to use this Saturday to confirm there are no showstopping bugs that would muck up the beta release. So today's games will be on beta servers with an early build of the 1.2 client. Follow the instructions below to get set up. No, this isn't the actual beta release; consider it a release candidate for early adopters. The settings and map rotations on the servers are still subject to change before release.
1) Determine your basepath folder: Start your current (1.1) client and bring down the console, enter in /fs_basepath and remember the directory it tells you.
2) Get the PK3s: Make a directory called "gpp" in your basepath directory and put in it the highest numbered vms and data pk3s from here (http://downloads.mercenariesguild.net/gpp/).
3) Get the client: Get the latest build of the client from here (http://lakitu.mercenariesguild.net/temp/gpp/) and put it in the same place as your current client (the .exe one is Windows, the other is linux32). Name it something else; don't replace your current trem client.
When you go to the server browser, pick either one of the starred "official" servers at the top of the list; I'll play on whichever one gets more people (though for what it's worth, today would have been a Euro server day). Our usual start time is 30 minutes from now, but feel free to join whenever.
Thanks for bearing with us.
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Mara is still significantly slower in 1.2 than 1.1.
To prove this:
1. Start beta client.
2. /devmap transit
3. /team aliens; class level0; wait 20; give all; wait 100; class level2
4. Leave the train using the nearest exit and proceed to the side of the platform near one of the ends of the train.
5. Take note of the time and jump your way over (do not use walls) to the other side of the platform (by the other end of the train)
6. Take note of the time. You should have something around 13 seconds from the time you started.
7. exit beta client and start a 1.1 client.
8. repeat steps 2-6. You should get a time around 7 seconds. Note how the 1.1 mara accelerates significantly with each jump.
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Norf, It says that it needs SDL.dll which is on the download site. I downloaded it even though it didn't say to and put it in my basepath. I'm sure other guys will have to do this too.
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Well I played around on the server just now.
Mara is fine. I enjoyed playing it.
That's about all.
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Umm... It doesn't work for me... All I get is the background and the scroll bar, no text or anything...
(http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz233/A_Spork/12huh.jpg)
help?
EDIT: Nevermind, forgot the dat .pk3, just grabbed the vms....dur...
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Norf, It says that it needs SDL.dll which is on the download site. I downloaded it even though it didn't say to and put it in my basepath. I'm sure other guys will have to do this too.
This!
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A little bow to Rocinante for hosting the Mac client, you rock.
Also, your server gave me upwards of 1.5mb/second.
Keep being awesome.
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Sorry that it didn't exist sooner :> Now I can have at least one fewer excuse for not playing next time people load up the server. Hopefully it happens when everyone's in bed...
EDIT No reason not to give the URL: http://www.srhuston.net/tremulous/ (http://www.srhuston.net/tremulous/) has the .dmg, and there's a readme.rtf inside for upgrading should the need arise (you'll know if the version number is higher than the one you have, I'll only upgrade it if there's a client-breaking commit to svn). Also, please let me know if you're using a PPC Mac (or something other than OS 10.5) and if it works for you - this was compiled on my x86 Power Mac, and I don't have a G4/G5 I can test on right now.
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Still no pretty models. :'(
I played for a bit, fiddling around with the new repeater concept.
The only comment I can make it maybe make it 26 building points instead of 20 building points, since the repeater takes up 4 of the energy in the zone, making it only 16 usable building points. If you changed it to 26, you'd be able to make 2 turrets and a medi, an arm and medi, a node and 2 rets, and so forth. Unless the idea is to make humans camp the outer bases? I thought it was to make convenient resting/supply areas.
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26 is too much. 20 is a nice balanced number and is not enough to make a self-sufficient base which is the point of restricting the bp on repeaters.
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The best places are where you can get two or 3 of them in secure places covering a nice kill zone.
Added bonus of needing lots is part of the outpost can be without power while other parts are still alive.
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No reason not to give the URL: http://www.srhuston.net/tremulous/ (http://www.srhuston.net/tremulous/) has the .dmg, and there's a readme.rtf inside for upgrading should the need arise (you'll know if the version number is higher than the one you have, I'll only upgrade it if there's a client-breaking commit to svn). Also, please let me know if you're using a PPC Mac (or something other than OS 10.5) and if it works for you - this was compiled on my x86 Power Mac, and I don't have a G4/G5 I can test on right now.
Hate to quote myself, but two things:
1) A few people have grabbed this dmg, but I haven't heard from anyone if it's working fine/broken/etc. I'll assume that means it's fine :>
2) I missed a step in the upgrade instructions in the readme, there's a new readme on the site (and in the latest dmg) with the updated last step.
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Also, please let me know if you're using a PPC Mac (or something other than OS 10.5)
Just FYI, running 10.4 or 10.5 on Intel, you can test the PPC side by running the tremulous.ppc binary.
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Just tested it on my iBook G4 (Mac OS X 10.5) and it works fine. Resolution still defaults to 640x480 and the gamma is still set to a value that is too low for most monitors but I doubt that they're Mac specific bugs.
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Also, please let me know if you're using a PPC Mac (or something other than OS 10.5)
Just FYI, running 10.4 or 10.5 on Intel, you can test the PPC side by running the tremulous.ppc binary.
Oh my god tjw is alive.
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words
Please do me a favor, and tell Amanieu that his client sucks.
Thanks.
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All right, same deal as last week. There've been about 40 commits made to subversion since last Saturday, so grab the latest version of the 1.2 client and join one of the beta servers. At this point we're in a feature freeze, so if we can iron out the last remaining bugs we'll have an actual release on our hands.
Here're the instructions again:
1) Determine your basepath folder: Start your current (1.1) client and bring down the console, enter in /fs_basepath and remember the directory it tells you.
2) Get the PK3s: Make a directory called "gpp" in your basepath directory and put in it the highest numbered vms and data pk3s from here (http://downloads.mercenariesguild.net/gpp/).
3) Get the client: Get the latest build of the client from here (http://lakitu.mercenariesguild.net/temp/gpp/) (the .exe one is Windows, the other is linux32) or here (http://www.srhuston.net/tremulous/) (for the mac .dmg) and put it in the same place as your current client . Name it something else; don't replace your current trem client.
-1) If something seems screwy and you can't load a map: Find your homepath directory with /fs_homepath, and remove any pk3s from the gpp/ directory under there. Autodownloads default to there and will override pk3s in your basepath directory.
When you go to the server browser, pick either one of the starred "official" servers at the top of the list.
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Oh, and there were a few minor gameplay-related changes that were made last week that I forgot to mention then. Go here (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=11859.msg180723#msg180723) to see.
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Thanks Norf. You rock.
Btw, what was the decision on the whole friendly-fire issue?
Suggestion: Have the number of bp available through marked structures in parentheses next to the regular bp number.
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Daylight savings time has ended in the US (finally), so right now it's 19:00 GMT (the time we've been playing at for months now). However, last switch we stayed with silly American time, and if we do that again now we'll be back to lining up with the time the top post of this thread and the #tremulous topic say the games are at. So either come play now or wait an hour, your choice :P
I say let's try to start a game on the Euro server today, since I haven't gotten to play there much.
EDIT: Also! Could everyone please turn on cl_autorecorddemo? If anything weird happens it'll be helpful for us to have a demo, and there's pretty much no reason to not turn it on. You can get rid of the big red dot with cg_drawdemostate 0.
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Also! Could everyone please turn on cl_autorecorddemo? If anything weird happens it'll be helpful for us to have a demo, and there's pretty much no reason to not turn it on.
Heh. I probably have more than 10 GB of demos saved on my drive.
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Ummm, what's with the white bar before every chat message if you are in console?
It's kinda annoying.
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Game! In 25 minutes!
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k
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Ummm, what's with the white bar before every chat message if you are in console?
It's kinda annoying.
Figured out today that this was from needing to put up new client builds.
Update clients from http://lakitu.mercenariesguild.net/temp/gpp
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Is there a web list of 1.2 servers so that people can tell from their browser whether people are on 1.2 or not?
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Unfortunately http://master.tremulous.net/list2/ only shows the 1.1 servers on the new master.
I'll have a poke around and see if I can get qstat to play ball or find something else.
Correction: Thanks to kev pointing me in the right direction: http://master.tremulous.net/list2/ now shows 1.2 servers.
edit: he fixed your grammar too - kev
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Oh sweet, thanks :)
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Game in 20 minutes.
The instructions to get set up are here (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=8622.msg179983#msg179983) again. Mac builds of the client here (http://www.srhuston.net/tremulous/). Please update your client to the today's version since we're here to test them (and it'll fix things like having little white boxes all over your console).
If you get errors with your HUD or can't even load a map without things crashing you might have a conflict between the pk3s in your fs_basepath (where we told you to put downloaded pk3s, and where a default install would go) and your fs_homepath (e.g. ~/.tremulous/gpp) since autodownloaded pk3s will go to homepath. If this happens just clear out all the old pk3s and make sure you have the latest version of data-gpp and vms-gpp in your basepath directory.
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The instructions to get set up are here (http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=8622.msg179983#msg179983) again. Mac builds of the client here (http://www.srhuston.net/tremulous/).
I downloaded the mac build of the client, and it crashes on start up for me.
By the way, I have a Mac OS X, Version 10.5.8, and plenty of memory.
11/22/09 12:35:00 PM com.apple.launchd[118] ([0x0-0x346346].net.tremulous[15830]) Exited abnormally: Segmentation fault
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] tremulous 1.1.0_SVN1930M macosx-x86-debug Nov 21 2009
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ----- FS_Startup -----
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Current search path:
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/gpp
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Applications/gpp
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/zob.pk3 (17 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/twister.pk3 (87 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/trempoline-x-mas.pk3 (21 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/trempoline-b3.pk3 (16 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/test.pk3 (87 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/pseudo-sparta.pk3 (24 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/power-grangers.pk3 (6 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map_powergrid_b25.pk3 (44 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map_aegis_station_b1.pk3 (13 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/mapping-competition-2007-mappack.pk3 (56 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-xtremesurf_b2.pk3 (7 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-xtcev7-1.1.0.pk3 (49 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-xpackv1.pk3 (3 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-wrecktify_b1.pk3 (14 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-volcano-alpha4-1.1.0.pk3 (11 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-veddak-final.pk3 (294 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-UTCSfinal.pk3 (82 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-UTCSb2.pk3 (11 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-tremor-1.1.2.pk3 (51 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-treecannon_b4.pk3 (7 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-traininggrounds_1.pk3 (5 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-tk_beta2.pk3 (21 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-thermal-b2.pk3 (207 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-thanatos_b3.pk3 (84 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-takana-b1.pk3 (13 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-stcs-b3a.pk3 (58 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-spacetracks_beta1.pk3 (156 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-sophcom_pre1.pk3 (16 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-snipertime.pk3 (29 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-smallship.pk3 (8 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-sirius.pk3 (134 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-sirius-beta1.pk3 (99 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-sectorb17_gameplaytest3.pk3 (157 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-Search_b5.pk3 (32 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-rotcannon-garbage-1.pk3 (31 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-rotcannon-b11.pk3 (31 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-roflcoaster.pk3 (2 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-ramp-a1.pk3 (2 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-pushcannon_b3.pk3 (17 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-peorongate-p3.pk3 (6 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-peorongate-b3.pk3 (6 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-paintfactory.pk3 (111 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-paint9.pk3 (87 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-paint7.pk3 (129 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-overthehill-b1.pk3 (7 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-ok.pk3 (496 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-nano-beta4.pk3 (81 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-mudkip_b1_noob.pk3 (15 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-mudkip_b1.pk3 (16 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-monkey_v1.pk3 (71 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-mission_one_b7.pk3 (27 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-mission_one_b6.pk3 (27 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-lowrise_b2.pk3 (12 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-hard_landing_a1.pk3 (190 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-gloom2beta2.pk3 (219 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-GFIC.pk3 (60 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-gamma_core-final.pk3 (75 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-Fort5.pk3 (28 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-dmb01-alpa.1.0.pk3 (141 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-castle-b1.pk3 (86 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-bluedragon-1.1.0.pk3 (68 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-atcszalpha.pk3 (116 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-atcszalpha-b2.pk3 (50 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-atcs3.pk3 (88 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-atcs-upsidedown.pk3 (87 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-ambush.pk3 (27 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-ambush.c8f9d97d.pk3 (6 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-aggravate.pk3 (63 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/map-1984b4.pk3 (118 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/highrise-b6.pk3 (23 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/belker.pk3 (87 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/bbs2.pk3 (6 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base/a2b1.pk3 (7 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Applications/Tremulous.app/Contents/MacOS/base/vms-gpp1921b.pk3 (4 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Applications/Tremulous.app/Contents/MacOS/base/vms-1.1.0.pk3 (4 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Applications/Tremulous.app/Contents/MacOS/base/map-uncreation-1.1.0.pk3 (110 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Applications/Tremulous.app/Contents/MacOS/base/map-tremor-1.1.0.pk3 (45 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Applications/Tremulous.app/Contents/MacOS/base/map-transit-1.1.0.pk3 (135 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Applications/Tremulous.app/Contents/MacOS/base/map-niveus-1.1.0.pk3 (134 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Applications/Tremulous.app/Contents/MacOS/base/map-nexus6-1.1.0.pk3 (151 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Applications/Tremulous.app/Contents/MacOS/base/map-karith-1.1.0.pk3 (118 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Applications/Tremulous.app/Contents/MacOS/base/map-atcs-1.1.0.pk3 (87 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Applications/Tremulous.app/Contents/MacOS/base/map-arachnid2-1.1.0.pk3 (67 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Applications/Tremulous.app/Contents/MacOS/base/data-gpp1917.pk3 (265 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Applications/Tremulous.app/Contents/MacOS/base/data-1.1.0.pk3 (1229 files)
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Applications/Tremulous.app/Contents/MacOS/base
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] /Applications/base
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ----------------------
---Code continues on next post due to 20000 character limit---
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---Code continued from previous post due to 20000 character limit---
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] 6987 files in pk3 files
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] execing default.cfg
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] execing autogen.cfg
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Unknown command "clearaliases^7"
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] couldn't exec autoexec.cfg
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Hunk_Clear: reset the hunk ok
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ----- Client Initialization -----
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Couldn't read q3history.
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ----- Initializing Renderer ----
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] -------------------------------
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] QKEY found.
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ----- Client Initialization Complete -----
11/22/09 12:41:40 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ----- Client Initialization Complete -----
11/22/09 12:41:41 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ----- R_Init -----
11/22/09 12:41:41 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] SDL using driver "Quartz"
11/22/09 12:41:41 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Initializing OpenGL display
11/22/09 12:41:41 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Estimated display aspect: 1.600
11/22/09 12:41:41 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ...setting mode 640x480
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Using 8/8/8 Color bits, 24 depth, 8 stencil display.
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Available modes: '800x500 1024x640 1152x720 1280x800 720x480 640x480 800x600 1024x768'
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] GL_RENDERER: NVIDIA GeForce 9400M OpenGL Engine
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Initializing OpenGL extensions
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ...ignoring GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ...GL_S3_s3tc not found
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ...using GL_EXT_texture_env_add
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ...using GL_ARB_multitexture
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ...using GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ...ignoring GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] previous mouse acceleration: 0.000000
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] GL_VENDOR: NVIDIA Corporation
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] GL_RENDERER: NVIDIA GeForce 9400M OpenGL Engine
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] GL_VERSION: 2.0 NVIDIA-1.5.48
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] GL_EXTENSIONS: GL_ARB_transpose_matrix GL_ARB_vertex_program GL_ARB_vertex_blend GL_ARB_window_pos GL_ARB_shader_objects GL_ARB_vertex_shader GL_ARB_shading_language_100 GL_EXT_multi_draw_arrays GL_EXT_clip_volume_hint GL_EXT_rescale_normal GL_EXT_draw_range_elements GL_EXT_fog_coord GL_EXT_gpu_program_parameters GL_EXT_geometry_shader4 GL_EXT_transform_feedback GL_APPLE_client_storage GL_APPLE_specular_vector GL_APPLE_transform_hint GL_APPLE_packed_pixels GL_APPLE_fence GL_APPLE_vertex_array_object GL_APPLE_vertex_program_evaluators GL_APPLE_element_array GL_APPLE_flush_render GL_APPLE_aux_depth_stencil GL_NV_texgen_reflection GL_NV_light_max_exponent GL_IBM_rasterpos_clip GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap GL_ARB_imaging GL_ARB_point_parameters GL_ARB_texture_env_crossbar GL_ARB_texture_border_clamp GL_ARB_multitexture GL_ARB_texture_env_add GL_ARB_texture_cube_map GL_ARB_texture_env_dot3 GL_ARB_multisample GL_ARB_texture_env_combine GL_ARB_texture_compression GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat GL_ARB_shadow GL_ARB_depth_texture GL_ARB_fragment_program GL_ARB_fragment_program_shadow GL_ARB_fragment_shader GL_ARB_occlusion_query GL_ARB_point_sprite GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object GL_ARB_draw_buffers GL_ARB_shader_texture_lod GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array GL_EXT_framebuffer_object GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit GL_EXT_framebuffer_multisample GL_EXT_texture_rectangle GL_ARB_texture_rectangle GL_EXT_texture_env_add GL_EXT_blend_color GL_EXT_blend_minmax GL_EXT_blend_subtract GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias GL_EXT_abgr GL_EXT_bgra GL_EXT_stencil_wrap GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic GL_EXT_secondary_color GL_EXT_blend_func_separate GL_EXT_shadow_funcs GL_EXT_stencil_two_side GL_EXT_depth_bounds_test GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc GL_EXT_texture_compression_dxt1 GL_EXT_texture_sRGB GL_EXT_blend_equation_separate GL_EXT_texture_mirror_clamp GL_EXT_packed_depth_stencil GL_EXT_bindable_uniform GL_EXT_texture_integer GL_EXT_gpu_shader4 GL_EXT_draw_buffers2 GL_APPLE_flush_buffer_range GL_APPLE_ycbcr_422 GL_APPLE_vertex_array_range GL_APPLE_texture_range GL_APPLE_float_pixels GL_ATI_texture_float GL_ARB_texture_float GL_ARB_half_float_pixel GL_APPLE_pixel_buffer GL_APPLE_object_purgeable GL_NV_point_sprite GL_NV_register_combiners GL_NV_register_combiners2 GL_NV_blend_square GL_NV_texture_shader GL_NV_texture_shader2 GL_NV_texture_shader3 GL_NV_fog_distance GL_NV_depth_clamp GL_NV_multisample_filter_hint GL_NV_fragment_program_option GL_NV_fragment_program2 GL_NV_vertex_program2_option GL_NV_vertex_program3 GL_ATI_texture_mirror_once GL_ATI_texture_env_combine3 GL_ATI_separate_stencil GL_SGIS_texture_edge_clamp GL_SGIS_texture_lod
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] GL_MAX_TEXTURE_SIZE: 8192
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] GL_MAX_TEXTURE_UNITS_ARB: 4
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] PIXELFORMAT: color(24-bits) Z(24-bit) stencil(8-bits)
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] MODE: 640 x 480 fullscreen hz:N/A
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] GAMMA: hardware w/ 0 overbright bits
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] rendering primitives: single glDrawElements
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] texturemode: GL_LINEAR_MIPMAP_LINEAR
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] picmip: 0
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] texture bits: 0
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] multitexture: enabled
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] compiled vertex arrays: enabled
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] compiled vertex arrays: enabled
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] texenv add: enabled
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] compressed textures: disabled
11/22/09 12:41:42 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Initializing Shaders
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ----- finished R_Init -----
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ------ Initializing Sound ------
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] SDL_Init( SDL_INIT_AUDIO )... OK
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] SDL audio driver is "coreaudio".
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] SDL_AudioSpec:
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Format: AUDIO_S16LSB
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Freq: 22050
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Samples: 512
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Channels: 2
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Starting SDL audio callback...
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] SDL audio initialized.
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ----- Sound Info -----
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] 1 stereo
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] 16384 samples
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] 16 samplebits
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] 1 submission_chunk
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] 22050 speed
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] 0x22633000 dma buffer
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] No background file.
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ----------------------
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ----------------------
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Sound initialization successful.
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] --------------------------------
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Sound memory manager started
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Loading vm file vm/ui.qvm...
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] File "vm/ui.qvm" found at "/Users/Zach/Library/Application Support/Tremulous/base"
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ...which has vmMagic VM_MAGIC_VER2
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] Loading 1073 jump table targets
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] VM file ui compiled to 801671 bytes of code
11/22/09 12:41:43 PM [0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854] ui loaded in 4604416 bytes on the hunk
11/22/09 12:41:47 PM com.apple.launchd[118] ([0x0-0x34c34c].net.tremulous[15854]) Exited abnormally: Segmentation fault
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you have trash in base, get rid of it.
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Hmm, I'm not quite ready to give up trem 1.1 quite yet. ;D Is there a way I can change the homepath outside of trem, so it creates a new base?
Or by trash, do you mean a certain file that won't mess up anything is I remove it?
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Anything that isn't a map shouldn't be in base.
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Just add +set fs_homepath "path to wherever" to the end of the shortcut for launching trem or whatever macs use. And plz someone add horizontal scroll bars for [ code] tag fields...
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They already have scroll bars, but they only show when needed.
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Not in the default theme, the 2nd Kiwi's post made the page about 20 times wider then usual for me.
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same Here................
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I still couldn't get the client to run. I have a lot of junk in my base, like demos, screenshots, paths, and other stuff. Adding +set fs_homepath didn't work, but I'm almost sure I didn't put it in the right place. I added it after the exec in a shortcut, but macs can oversimplify stuff, so it just added it to the end of the name, any suggestions for where to put it?
Also,
It didn't widen the view for me, and I'm using the old layout.
Thanks,
Kiwi
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Hey folks, Timbo made official installers for the beta clients and it would be very helpful if you could test them out. If you already have a beta client updated ~last week, then it is not required for you to do this as nothing has changed, but testing the installers and telling us any problems you may have would greatly help us out.
At the moment there is not official mac or nix-x64 installers/builds. That will likely change but it is not decided yet.
http://icculus.org/~tma/tremulous-gpp1/
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Wow.
Folks whine whine whine, but when the beta is delivered with an "official" release due tomorrow, everyone disappears.
Who'd have guessed that!
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The other possibility is that everyone got sick and tired of you.
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The installer works great.
A simple 'Agree', 'Next', 'Next' was needed to install it fully.
Connected to the servers within it with ease also.
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The installer works great.
A simple 'Agree', 'Next', 'Next' was needed to install it fully.
Connected to the servers within it with ease also.
Same here, worked flawlessly!
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Installer worked fine for me too.
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Installer worked fine for me too.
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sin problemas aqui. buen trabajo
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Last call for testing the installers: http://icculus.org/~tma/tremulous-gpp1/
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Installer worked fine for me too.
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Installer worked fine for me too.
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Installer worked fine for me too.
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Nicely done. Do you have any idea when you are planning to put the new models in?
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It's looking like we (hopefully) won't need to schedule games anymore; there've been people playing the beta pretty much continuously since release and usage is climbing. There've been games on both the US server (which has unlagged on) and the EU server (unlagged off) all day, so take your pick. I think we're going to stay at just two servers for a while until they're not enough to handle the playerload.
Nicely done. Do you have any idea when you are planning to put the new models in?
When we release 1.2 final.
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Hm, I have one irk about the Linux installer: it didn't install a client, I had to separately download the zip and install the client myself.
I assume this will change?
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We need a 1.2 Tremulous server browser. :(